Irish abortion law challenged in European court

[osarusan]

From the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8403013.stm


The Irish Republic's strict abortion law is being challenged in the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

The legal action has been brought by three Irish women who say the effective ban on abortion in Ireland violates the European Convention on Human Rights.

All three have travelled to Britain to have abortions.

The Irish government has engaged two leading lawyers to argue its case that the country has a sovereign right to protect the life of the unborn.

Does anybody know how solid the footing of the Irish govt position will be in this case?

The three women's argument is apparently :

They argue that being forced to travel abroad for abortions endangered their "health and well-being" as safeguarded by the European Convention on Human Rights.
I have no legal insight to this, but that doesn't sound like the strongest case to me.

[dahamsta]

I just caught the AG on RTE News, burst my hole laughing when he said our abortion laws had been arrived at in a "wholly democratic" way. Holy democratic more like!

[Ceirtlis]

From the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8403013.stm



Does anybody know how solid the footing of the Irish govt position will be in this case?

The three women's argument is apparently :

I have no legal insight to this, but that doesn't sound like the strongest case to me.

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/breaking-news/national-news/irish-abortion-law-under-spotlight-1966020.html

I think the point they are arguing on is developed a little better here,

"As doctors, we're concerned at the needless burden of additional risk caused by treatment delays. You don't have to be medically qualified to understand that the Irish abortion ban risks women's physical health, requires abortions to be performed later than necessary, and creates serious emotional upset for women at an already stressful time."

I am not an expert but is abortion allowed in Ireland where medically necessary ie the womans life is in danger? I think I read somewhere that it is.

If it is down to a case of choice to travel to the UK with no unusual health risks attached to the pregnancy I would think they dont have a case. It would be different if they were forced to do it for medical reasons.

Is travelling to the UK however many months into pregnancy more stressful to the woman and foetus than working up to within a few weeks of the birth which alot of women do.

[bennocelt]

I have no real opinion on this either way - I am not a fan of abortion but then accept its totally a womans right to choose - but was curious how the three woman paid for this to reach court? Who is funding them?

[jebus]

It's not so much the procedure that is the problem it's the fact that Irish women can't see their own doctors either before or after the operation about it that is the problem. All an Irish doctor can do beforehand is recommend a competent doctor in the UK for the women to go get checked out in and after the procedure itself she can't even be checked for complications arising from the abortion unless she returns to the UK or is in a bad way (emergency services basically)

It's nonsense that we've become so secular and yet still leave this rubbish law in place in place to be fair

Also this type of thing is one of the reasons why I voted Yes to Lisbon, so the European Courts could overturn some of our more nonsensical laws

[Macy]

I think there were underlying medical threats in two of the cases, and another issue in the other. I hope they succeed too, for the reasons above and also because it will send the Youth Defence/ Coir/ Libertas/ Iona freaks mental.


I am not a fan of abortion but then accept its totally a womans right to choose
I think that's the opinion of most pro-choice people. It's telling that most of the ardent anti-choice people you meet tend to be men...

[Magicme]

I have no real opinion on this either way - I am not a fan of abortion but then accept its totally a womans right to choose - but was curious how the three woman paid for this to reach court? Who is funding them?

Was also wondering who is funding this. Am glad its happening and even if they are unsuccessful maybe it will put it back on the agenda for another referendum soon and now that the country is more mature there may be a chance of it being passed.

I think it is awful that women feel like they have no choices and are pretty much forced to have children they dont want. The real crime is bringing life to someone you dont want, as you will never give it the love and care it deserves so its better to get rid of it.

The cost of going to England to have an abortion is scary. I know if I needed one I would never be able to afford it and would be stuck bringing up a child that would ruin my life to a certain extent. Selfish I know, but I have already contributed to the worlds population and wouldnt like to burden it with any more.

[bennocelt]

Was also wondering who is funding this. Am glad its happening and even if they are unsuccessful maybe it will put it back on the agenda for another referendum soon and now that the country is more mature there may be a chance of it being passed.
.

Could you trust FF to not make a sham of a referendum like the last two previous occasions?

As another poster pointed out - I would nearly love if abortion came in just to pee of the Christian right et al. Will never forget that idiot Mildred Fox supporting the government as long as she got her abortion referendum etc. never mind the suffering we have to endure under FF - but think of the unborn:mad:

[Magicme]

I know, just hoping that by the time it comes into being that there is a FG/Labour government.

[Crosby87]

.

I think it is awful that women feel like they have no choices and are pretty much forced to have children they dont want. The real crime is bringing life to someone you dont want, as you will never give it the love and care it deserves so its better to get rid of it.


Have you ever heard of adoption?

These people on the block I grew up on, they adopted 2 babies from Ireland. Lovely hard working folks. Couldnt have kids. They are around 7 now, healthy happy boys, when I visit my parents I see them running around like crazy laughing and playing baseball.
Surely no one would propose that they should have been aborted due to having no options!

[Macy]

Surely no one would propose that they should have been aborted due to having no options!
Not your or mine's right to say what a woman should do with their body and their mental state.

I wouldn't worry anyway - whats been going on in Listowel is proof enough that we haven't moved on that much as a society, misogyny is alive and well, and any amendement wouldn't be passed.

[John83]

Not your or mine's right to say what a woman should do with their body and their mental state.
'Not your or mine's right to say that a woman should can't have their children killed up to a particular age.'

Macy, there's a kind of childish abortion debate which I really detest: black and white statements that deny there any room for debate. It ****es people off and is tantamount to trolling. Cop on.

[dahamsta]

Another issue with debates on this topic is that people get too emotive. Both of you cop on please.

[Macy]

Trolling wasn't my intention, and I personally think saying it's a womans right to choose is a reasonable statement to make in an abortion thread, especially when there's an attempt to make it about specific adopted children.

It was late, so I was lazy, but I'll add at this stage that having abortion legislation won't effect adoptions. If a woman really wants an abortion she will have one and updating our laws is about safety of women - giving them the post procedure care, taking care of them metally, giving the true range of options so they can make an informed decision.

[endabob1]

It's an emotive issue and one I've always struggled with. I always consider myself very liberal, I'm an athiest and my politics are always a little left of centre but abortion is one thing that I can't come to terms with.
I think there are exceptions where a woman has been raped or is likely to encounter health problems or in some cases where the child is likely to be born with a handicap be it mental or physical.
For the most part though I would rather see a healthy child being born and given up for adoption, that too is not an easy route, from family experiences I know some of the trauma involved in giving a child up for adoption.
For the most part I agree with it being the womans right to choose but I would hate to see us become like the US where abortion is basically a form of contraception. The solution needs to give more information to women, it needs to give a real list of alternatives and solutions. It also needs to ensure that abortion clinics are tightly regulated and this is where I have my concerns because I don't think we're very competent at regulation.

[pineapple stu]

abortion is one thing that I can't come to terms with.
I think there are exceptions where a woman has been raped or is likely to encounter health problems or in some cases where the child is likely to be born with a handicap be it mental or physical.

Have to say I'm a bit surprised at the general view on the thread; this is the view I'd agree with. I'm not an expert on our abortion law, but from what I know, I think it's spot on. That's probably borne of a mindset where I hate this idea that modern society seems to urge complete derogation of responsibility on anything.

[Macy]

Have to say I'm a bit surprised at the general view on the thread; this is the view I'd agree with. I'm not an expert on our abortion law, but from what I know, I think it's spot on.
But our current law doesn't allow for the cases you say you agree with outlined by endabob, so how is the law spot on?

It is on health consequences of the mother that at least one of the three women is taking the case that sparked this thread.

[Bluebeard]

For the most part I agree with it being the womans right to choose but I would hate to see us become like the US where abortion is basically a form of contraception. The solution needs to give more information to women, it needs to give a real list of alternatives and solutions. It also needs to ensure that abortion clinics are tightly regulated and this is where I have my concerns because I don't think we're very competent at regulation.

Sorry Endabob, but I think you are being a little bit OTT on this.

Firstly, I suspect that little more than a few clichés of little existence outside of the right-facing scandal rags consider abortion as some kind of contraception. Abortion is one of the most heart-wrenching things that anyone can face - you are cutting some part of yourself off, even if it is something that you do not consider part of yourself.

Secondly, the US has a huge issue with Abortion - I note that a huge factor in the dynamics of selection of US Supreme Court judges is tied up to the Roe v Wade (1973) right to abortion case. The panel is balanced very finely in favour of maintaining the status quo at the moment, and it was one of the chief concerns for many on Bush's election, that he would tilt this - and by "God", he wanted to. Even in LA, notorious cesspool of moral decreptiude, abortion clinics are few in number and it is both expensive and difficult to coordinate it. In some other states, they "provide" it, but more in name than action. Abortion clinics are even bombed in some states. Britain and France would be an easier target to hit.

Thirdly, I have a friend who is working in an abortion clinic just outside London. A fun job, as you would imagine. She cannot get over the number of Irish rolling up to it, which obviously is going to cost a small fortune to get to. However, once you get there, it is really easy to have your contraceptive abortion, as you only have a few dozen protesters to get past, and then it is a simple re-iteration of the potential harm to yourself, physically and psychologically. Then there is the operation. Apparently the Irish tend to take the local anaesthetic rather than the general, as they are sometimes alone, and have to fly back that night.

She also tells a tale of a girl (not Irish) who was sent to the clinic by her older married boyfriend to have an abortion that she clearly did not want. She was illiterate and had to have the forms read to her before she could sign them. Indeed, she had to have him come and pick her up.

The Irish issue is a special one, and if you want a reason why it should be available here, you should ask a friend of mine. She had a kid at the age of 17, having discovered she was preganant unexpectedly. By choice she had it - she didn't really know what options were open to her. She tell a tale of a friend of her's who, at a similarly young age, discovered she was pregnant, knew that keep it or sent it off, she'd be kicked out of the house (in holy compassionate Catholic Ireland of the time) and shunned in the community, shunned by the boy and all, knew she'd never afford to raise a kid either , never mind take the trip over to Liverpool, knew that she didn't want an abortion, but knew she'd no choice. No choice but to contact some of her better friends who would get her a bottle of vodka between them, get her good and drunk, two of them hold on to her, and the strongest of them kick her hard in the stomach to induce a miscarriage. It worked. Whether she will ever be able to have children is another story.

[Magicme]

Again it is not always clear cut black & white as to whether there is a risk to a mother, some risks are not evident until the birth itself or the trauma may not actually hit until the child is born. I dont think there is anything wrong with choosing to have a child or not, contraception is a form of abortion to a certain extent so dont see why there is a problem.

Also on adoptions, do we really need more kids in the world sitting in homes waiting to be adopted? The rigourous methods of selecting suitable adoptees (and it should be stringent) means that often there are not enough people allowed to adopt and kids are left in the state system. This is not fair either. Then you have an adopted kid growing up wondering about its natural parents and possibly feeling rejected for its entire life.

If you dont want a kid you have the options of : abstinence, contraception or abortion. Anything other than that is unfair. In my opinion of course, and I respect all others.

[passinginterest]

As I've gotten older I've become much more liberal in my views on abortion, when I was younger I'd always throw out the "there's always adoption" card but not I can see the flaws in that argument. I have reservations about it still but I'd prefer to live in a society that protects the health of women who make an informed choice to have an abortion than one that drives them to other countries and refuses any aftercare or responsibility. Psychological assessment and information on all alternatives would need to be provided to all those seeking abortions and only once this has been cleared should it proceed.

[pineapple stu]

But our current law doesn't allow for the cases you say you agree with outlined by endabob, so how is the law spot on?
I was under the impression that the Baby P (Baby X?) case in the late 90s resulted in the law changing so that abortion was permitted in cases where a threat to the life of the mother could be shown. If that's no tthe case, then that's the way I think it should be. (I suppose a case could easily be imagined for rape victims). I don't agree with the idea that an abortion is something you can get just because, and I don't think that that reflects badly on Irish society like some here are making out. I think we're far too quick as a nation to engage in self-loathing.

[endabob1]

Bluebeard

I have tales of family & friends who've either had to take the boat for an abortion or lived with putting a child up for adoption because catholic Ireland in the 1980's had a less tollerant view on teenage mothers;

For the most part I agree with the eight to choose but I know people/friends/friends of friends in London and New York who have had more than 1 abortion and for me I think there are a lot of times when I would feel it's morally justifiable to have an abortion I would think that by the time I was on my 3rd I would think that I was basically using it as a form of contraception.

[Macy]

Pineapple Stu, it is only in the threat to life covered by our current mess, not other (mental or physical) health issues. Personally I don't think that goes nearly far enough in protecting women.

[micls]

I was under the impression that the Baby P (Baby X?) case in the late 90s resulted in the law changing so that abortion was permitted in cases where a threat to the life of the mother could be shown. If that's no tthe case, then that's the way I think it should be. (I suppose a case could easily be imagined for rape victims). I don't agree with the idea that an abortion is something you can get just because, and I don't think that that reflects badly on Irish society like some here are making out. I think we're far too quick as a nation to engage in self-loathing.

Its very very difficult, even with health threat to get an abortion in this country as doctors are afraid to perform one. A doctor can later be charged if it is felt the abortion was unnecessary and most wont take the risk

[peadar1987]

I don't really agree with the argument that it's the mother's right to have an abortion, if she simply doesn't want the baby. If she decided 2 weeks, or even 2 minutes after the baby was born she didn't want it, it would be illegal to kill it. Why should the moment the baby passes into the air suddenly make it unacceptable for it to be killed?

Apparently babies first show signs of neurological activity 5 to 6 weeks after conception. To me, that makes them people, and after that stage, the baby's right to life trumps the mother's right not to be inconvenienced. (And I'm an atheist, so I'm not just regurgitating the Church's line on this)

[jebus]

Bluebeard

I have tales of family & friends who've either had to take the boat for an abortion or lived with putting a child up for adoption because catholic Ireland in the 1980's had a less tollerant view on teenage mothers;

For the most part I agree with the eight to choose but I know people/friends/friends of friends in London and New York who have had more than 1 abortion and for me I think there are a lot of times when I would feel it's morally justifiable to have an abortion I would think that by the time I was on my 3rd I would think that I was basically using it as a form of contraception.

I wouldn't go basing our laws on these people's attitudes though. I also know of a girl who has had at least 3 abortions in her life, I don't find that in any way acceptable but I would never use this as an excuse to deny another person medical care. As another forummer has said in this thread, legalising abortion won't suddenly open up the floodgates for people to go wild, if you were to have one you'd find some way of getting England, whatever the cost. All it will do is bring proper consultation before the procedure (which might actually convince some not to go through with it, I suspect that right now quite a few would be terrified and would jump across to England without fully thinking their actions through), being able to have the procedure closer to home so you have more support and also they could have post-procedure consultations and proper check ups for any arising complications.

I think that's a pretty sensible idea and that's why I'm in favour of legalising it


I don't really agree with the argument that it's the mother's right to have an abortion, if she simply doesn't want the baby. If she decided 2 weeks, or even 2 minutes after the baby was born she didn't want it, it would be illegal to kill it. Why should the moment the baby passes into the air suddenly make it unacceptable for it to be killed?

Apparently babies first show signs of neurological activity 5 to 6 weeks after conception. To me, that makes them people, and after that stage, the baby's right to life trumps the mother's right not to be inconvenienced. (And I'm an atheist, so I'm not just regurgitating the Church's line on this)

All of that still sounds like personal opinion though, I on the other hand don't believe it is a person until it could reasonably be expected to survive independently of the mother

Regardless it's all opinion and I don't think we'd ever resolve that difference in respect of making a law

[dahamsta]

Use of the word "kill" is the kind of emotive stuff I'm talking about. I don't want to see it used in this thread again. Just the facts ma'am, as the fella said.

[Aberdonian Stu]

I genuinely feel that the debate here should not be about whether abortion is right or wrong, it should really be the far more technical issue of where legal power lies. The law in this instance just happens to be on one of the more emotive topics.

To put it mildly this is going to be a messy case but I would expect the court to not support the petition largely because it is generally quite conservative when it comes to over-ruling laws in place in existing member states.

[peadar1987]

All of that still sounds like personal opinion though, I on the other hand don't believe it is a person until it could reasonably be expected to survive independently of the mother

Regardless it's all opinion and I don't think we'd ever resolve that difference in respect of making a law

Oh of course it's just my opinion, I'm an engineer, not a doctor, or a philosopher. Your definition of when life begins is just as valid as mine.



Use of the word "kill" is the kind of emotive stuff I'm talking about. I don't want to see it used in this thread again. Just the facts ma'am, as the fella said.


Sorry, I was a little unclear. I was only using the K word for a baby that has already been born

[dahamsta]

I take your point, but the last sentence in the first paragraph changes the context back.

I think Aberdonian Stu has it it right on the scope that the debate should have here, to keep it on track.

[Cymro]

I don't think the word 'kill' is either overly emotive or innacurate. If you were to say 'murder', perhaps, but.....

A newborn baby is a human life. A sixteen-week foetus is a human life. A fourteen-day embryo is a human life. Human life ultimately begins either at conception or at the appearance of the first signs of the 'primitive streak' at about two weeks after conception, depending on how you interpret the scientific facts. Destroying this life is killing, that's a basic fact.

The question is whether and to what extent you feel killing such life is wrong and where you draw the line.

[dahamsta]

I do think it's emotive, and I don't want to see it here again. I also won't ask again.

[peadar1987]

I don't think the word 'kill' is either overly emotive or innacurate. If you were to say 'murder', perhaps, but.....

A newborn baby is a human life. A sixteen-week foetus is a human life. A fourteen-day embryo is a human life. Human life ultimately begins either at conception or at the appearance of the first signs of the 'primitive streak' at about two weeks after conception, depending on how you interpret the scientific facts. Destroying this life is killing, that's a basic fact.

The question is whether and to what extent you feel killing such life is wrong and where you draw the line.

That depends. As I said before, the first neurological activity occurs at about 5 to 6 weeks after conception. Before that, I don't see a foetus as any different from any other living body part, just because it has the potential to grow into a person.

I just don't think that the current distinction many pro choice people make that aborting a foetus up to birth is okay, but killing it after birth is wrong, is the right one. I think that a foetus achieves "personhood" at some time between being just being a fertilised egg, and a self-aware, living creature minutes away from breathing air for the first time.

Although I still agree with late-term abortions if there is a significant threat to the physical or mental health of the mother.

[jebus]

I don't think you'll find any pro-choice person say abortion is okay up to birth for obvious reasons, also most pro-choice people I know (including myself) think terminations up to 24 weeks should be reviewed as well

[osarusan]

2: Abortion is not simply not provided in Ireland, its a criminal offence to get one, give one or assist in either of the two. Highly unlikely that the ECJ will force the Irish State to allow people to break the law.
I don't really understand your second point.

Surely the whole reason for bringing the case is to force the Irish govt. to legalise abortion by changing the law, rather than "force the Irish State to allow people to break the law"?

[jamie m]

Some interesting survey results on Irish attitudes to abortion in todays Examiner
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/survey-60-in-favour-of-legal-abortion-110224.html

[pineapple stu]

Can add that to dahamsta's rubbish reporting thread. "Survey: 60% in favour of abortion". Eh, no they're not. 60% of 18-35-year-olds are in favour. Big difference. The headline seems to imply that an abortion referendum in the morning would pass.

[John83]

Yep.
"The national poll also found almost 10% of 18-34 year olds has been involved in a relationship where an abortion took place."
Then, in the next paragraph:
"Curiously, less than one in seven men said they had been in a relationship that resulted in an unplanned pregnancy. But Dr Stephanie O’Keeffe, research and policy manager with the HSE Crisis Pregnancy Programme, said not all men may know their partner is pregnant."

When you see stuff like that, stop reading. The reporter hasn't a clue what they're writing.

[bennocelt]

Yep.
"The national poll also found almost 10% of 18-34 year olds has been involved in a relationship where an abortion took place."
Then, in the next paragraph:
"Curiously, less than one in seven men said they had been in a relationship that resulted in an unplanned pregnancy. But Dr Stephanie O’Keeffe, research and policy manager with the HSE Crisis Pregnancy Programme, said not all men may know their partner is pregnant."

When you see stuff like that, stop reading. The reporter hasn't a clue what they're writing.

Yeah agree, could also point out that 90% of 18-34 year olds have no experience with abortions - ie, no news story to report , or maybe someone is trying to push an agenda here?

[Bluebeard]

Yep.
"The national poll also found almost 10% of 18-34 year olds has been involved in a relationship where an abortion took place."
Then, in the next paragraph:
"Curiously, less than one in seven men said they had been in a relationship that resulted in an unplanned pregnancy. But Dr Stephanie O’Keeffe, research and policy manager with the HSE Crisis Pregnancy Programme, said not all men may know their partner is pregnant."

When you see stuff like that, stop reading. The reporter hasn't a clue what they're writing.

Ehm, read it closer. You'll see in the leading paragraph it says that one in four women have experienced an unplanned pregnancy, which keeps it actually statistically and factually correct.

And it is also in keeping with the eternal vogue for honing in on one thing for a sensational headline. No real news in the article, just the latest statistics. The biggest thing of interest is that one in seven men realise that they have been in unplanned pregnancies, which of course could also count very early spontaneous miscarriages - some women may not mention them, and I would imagine many men might not count them. I am guessing this is an interview based poll, and therefore not actually any kind of imperical study, which renders this part of it only slightly more useful than the POTM competition won by Jim.

[John83]

I misread it there Bluebeard - conflated unplanned pregnancy with abortions.

Anyway, that amounts to 14% of men and 24% of women admitting an unplanned pregnancy. The gap has to be a combination of where the women have the abortion without telling the bloke, and where they don't tell him for any of a few reasons, and as Bluebeard says, where the bloke isn't counting an early miscarriage. It'd be nice to have a breakdown of that, but newspapers would rather make an article from a quarter of the results formed into sentences than risk their readers freaking at a table of results.

[Bluebeard]

I misread it there Bluebeard - conflated unplanned pregnancy with abortions.

How many times have we all done that? Six times in seven? :eek: