View Full Version : Sinn Féin leadership and the IRA
Paddy Ramone
09/03/2004, 5:02 PM
Originally posted by brendy_eire
And as for the PDs, they sicken me to be honest. Ultra-capitalist, right wing scum, who'd like to see pensioners thrown out onto the street for not being able to afford being put in care.
McDowell really shows his ignorance by calling SF 'Nazis',
Yeah the PD's are very sinister alright. They're even worse than the Nazis in many respects. They even make Fine Gael look like a bunch of pinko lefties. The PD's support the New World Order of Bush and Blair and want to destroy the last remnants of Irish identity like the Irish language.
Their aim is to turn Ireland into the 51st state of the United States. Padraig Pearse, Michael Collins and Eamonn de Valera would be turning in their graves at the thought of those scumbags being in government.
TommyT
09/03/2004, 5:07 PM
The ''shadow policing'' is an excellent reason not to vote for him, mind you seems to me like JHR is taking the **** out of South Kerry, which is worse ? :D
PR trust you london, national team supporters to lower the tone of the discussion :rolleyes:
Re: Ferris being a vigo according to SuperKev.
Who will police the police? I dont see the coast guard around?
Actually that reminds me of a great football chant. Last season up in Richmond for one of the matches against Pats the City fans singing
Pusher Pusher Pusher
OUT OUT OUT
Made me laugh
Originally posted by SÓC
Who will police the police? I dont see the coast guard around?
You cant rely on them. They're all at sea :rolleyes:
Originally posted by patsh
There is no party going before the electorate in this country with as disreputable a bunch of candidates as SF (well, maybe those freaks in the in the Immigration Control crowd).
The fact that some of them are allowed to stand at all is disgraceful. It phsyically disgusts me that Martin Ferris, a convicted gun runner, should have been elected ahead of a man, (his party allegience is immaterial), who did as much as he could to stop the killing and try to get some sort of peaceful settlement.
Definately the most sensible words spoken so far in this thread.
I don't know how some of these guys are allowed to call themselves politicans. As Patsh said some of them (probably most of them) shouldn't be allowed to stand as election candidates at all.
brendy_éire
09/03/2004, 9:56 PM
Originally posted by Colm
I don't know how some of these guys are allowed to call themselves politicans. As Patsh said some of them (probably most of them) shouldn't be allowed to stand as election candidates at all.
Right enough, fighting for independence, terrible, isn't it? :rolleyes:
Besides, Ferris has served his time. Our justice system is based on the assumption that people can change.
Originally posted by brendy_eire
Right enough, fighting for independence, terrible, isn't it? :rolleyes:
Yeah, it is terrible when you adopt the methods that this lot have done.
brendy_éire
09/03/2004, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Colm
Yeah, it is terrible when you adopt the methods that this lot have done.
The same methods as those used during the War of Independence.
What methods did you expect the IRA to use exactly then? Use of tanks, aircraft and open combat weren't options. The use of guerilla tactic was the only viable option for the IRA since its creation. They wouldn't have stood a chance in open combat. You can't defeat a guerilla army, it's the obvious choice.
IMO if Pearse et al hadnt used violence during 1916 we would now have a free, independent and united ireland.
The IRA campaign is an example of a terrorist campaign that didnt work.
There are many more examples where peaceful protest won out in the end. As for fighting - who remembers Biafra?
Gandhi was the man.
Paddy Ramone
10/03/2004, 7:56 AM
As the hunger stiker Terence Mac Swiney once said, "It's not those who can inflict the most, but those who can suffer the most who will conquer".
TommyT
10/03/2004, 1:00 PM
Originally posted by eoinh
(a) IMO if Pearse et al hadnt used violence during 1916 we would now have a free, independent and united ireland.
(b)The IRA campaign is an example of a terrorist campaign that didnt work.
(a)There is no eveidence for that whatsoever.
(b)Actually the Brits have said they've no selfish or strategic interest in Ireland so that's not true either.
Originally posted by TommyT
(b)Actually the Brits have said they've no selfish or strategic interest in Ireland so that's not true either.
Thats cos they haven't - Norn Iron is a drain on their resources and has been for decades.
Originally posted by davros
Good to see the good'old'(very old!)rebel? county of Corcaigh getting stuck right in......
Sure you must have been so proud all the times London blown up.
Originally posted by SÓC
Politically they already have made Adams look very stupid.
Thats the key to it- POLITICALLY. The whole thing was politically motivated. Regardless of whether or not Gerry Adams was in the IRA (and i think most people accept he was involved in some way at some stage) this whole thing has set the peace process back for the sake of a few votes. The Peace Process should be above politics- its something everyone should be helping along, not using it as a political football because SF are doing well in the polls.
Personally I couldn't give a monkeys whether Gerry Adams was in the IRA or not. Without him there would still be a war going on and hundreds of people more would have died, and the likes of McDowell would do well to remember that.
Most laughable comment of the whole saga was Michael McDowell claiming in an interview with the Star that he was "more of a nationalist than Gerry Adams will ever be.":rolleyes:
Originally posted by patsh
It phsyically disgusts me that Martin Ferris, a convicted gun runner, should have been elected ahead of a man, (his party allegience is immaterial), who did as much as he could to stop the killing and try to get some sort of peaceful settlement.
I'm sure a signifcant minority on this island might have felt the same way about Michael Collins, and de valera and all those other people who were in our first Dáil all those years ago. Everyone is entitled to a second chance.
Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Yeah the PD's are very sinister alright. They're even worse than the Nazis in many respects. They even make Fine Gael look like a bunch of pinko lefties. The PD's support the New World Order of Bush and Blair and want to destroy the last remnants of Irish identity like the Irish language.
The PDs just want swimming pools full of money to arse around with, and they don't want anything or anyone getting in the way of that- be it pensioners, immigrants or god forbid nationalists. They are the ultimate refuge of the cold-hearted capitalist. The fact that they are in power in theis country is probably the greatest single blow to the reputation of Irish people as kind and welcoming in our history.
Originally posted by eoinh
The IRA campaign is an example of a terrorist campaign that didnt work.
rubbish. if they hadn't done what they did, you'd still have those bowler-hatted dinosaurs ruling the roost in stormont, and letting their friendly local paramilitary, oops I mean police, force kick taigs up and down the street whenever they felt like it. The IRA campaign made two mistakes IMO;
1. They targetted civilians, when they should have stuck entirely to targetting forces of occupation i.e. Army and RUC.
2. They should have called a halt at least 5 years earlier.
The history of the British occupation of this island has been violence followed by negotiation. That process has been followed tim after time after time, and while its not nice or right I don't think we would have got this far without it. Some people just don't understand talking
Originally posted by Conor74
Hear hear, even Joe Higgins TD...
Going off topic, but he was right when he said it was the thin end of the wedge. See the building levy's for starters.....
Originally posted by Éanna
rubbish. if they hadn't done what they did, you'd still have those bowler-hatted dinosaurs ruling the roost in stormont, and letting their friendly local paramilitary, oops I mean police, force kick taigs up and down the street whenever they felt like it. The IRA campaign made two mistakes IMO;
1. They targetted civilians, when they should have stuck entirely to targetting forces of occupation i.e. Army and RUC.
2. They should have called a halt at least 5 years earlier.
The history of the British occupation of this island has been violence followed by negotiation. That process has been followed tim after time after time, and while its not nice or right I don't think we would have got this far without it. Some people just don't understand talking
The IRA campaign ruled out political advancement for 25 years. It stifled any chance for economic development in the south as well during that period. Criminal activity as well by them continues still. The British have wanted to get rid of NI for a long time now.
Remember tonight when you're watching the news that the death and destruction that happened in Spain was also heaped on people in this island using the same methods. Tortutre and mutilation is not something to br proud of, The IRA routinely used torture and mutilation.
Eoinh what you are forgetting is that the 1916 risings were not supported by the people. In fact they were spat at in Dublin after the rising.
The people of Ireland had no interest in a Republic. Home rule as part of the United Kingdom was the most they wanted.
If there was to be no rising there would have been no executions of the leaders and hence no public support.
It all revolves around idea of the time of the blood scarfice etc.
We'd have something akin to the Scottish Parliament or New Zeland. That cousin marrying German woman would be our head of state and our national flag would most likely be some sort of thing with a Union Jack throw in the corner.
Originally posted by Conor74
Some criminal acts are more objectionable than others? Or just that TDs convicted of offences and jailed who are Socialist are okay, whereas Sinn Fein TDs who have never been convicted of anything (and they don't all have records to match Ferris) deserve approbation?
Blocking a bin truck compared to the kinda stuff that's on the news? Are you serious Conor? Was it a criminal act, or a civil matter (I think it was Civil rather than Criminal, but open to correction from any legal eagles out there).
Originally posted by SÓC
Eoinh what you are forgetting is that the 1916 risings were not supported by the people. In fact they were spat at in Dublin after the rising.
The people of Ireland had no interest in a Republic. Home rule as part of the United Kingdom was the most they wanted.
If there was to be no rising there would have been no executions of the leaders and hence no public support.
It all revolves around idea of the time of the blood scarfice etc.
We'd have something akin to the Scottish Parliament or New Zeland. That cousin marrying German woman would be our head of state and our national flag would most likely be some sort of thing with a Union Jack throw in the corner.
pains me to have to say this on a political thread SOC, but i agree with ya 100%
Slept thru most of this thread but dunno how anyone can support or fial to condemn the IRA while condemn the bombings Madrid today.
TommyT
11/03/2004, 1:41 PM
Originally posted by pete
Slept thru most of this thread but dunno how anyone can support or fial to condemn the IRA while condemn the bombings Madrid today.
Bit of a difference pete as regards warnings targets etc.
Though people who let foolish kids loose with explosives in crowded fish shops should be shot.
Originally posted by TommyT
Bit of a difference pete as regards warnings targets etc.
You mean like Warrington? Only difference is the scale....
Originally posted by Macy
You mean like Warrington? Only difference is the scale....
AFAIK there was a warning there wasn't there?
Re what Pete said, my comment on that was that if the IRA had stuck to military targets it would have ben a different story. Same goes for ETA. No matter how just your cause, attacking civilians is never on.
Originally posted by Éanna
AFAIK there was a warning there wasn't there?
AFAIK it was one of the clear as mud warnings.
Originally posted by Macy
AFAIK it was one of the clear as mud warnings.
fair enough. As i said, no matter how just the cause targetting civilians is cowardly and evil and any right-thinking person must condemn it.
Originally posted by SÓC
Eoinh what you are forgetting is that the 1916 risings were not supported by the people. In fact they were spat at in Dublin after the rising.
The people of Ireland had no interest in a Republic. Home rule as part of the United Kingdom was the most they wanted.
If there was to be no rising there would have been no executions of the leaders and hence no public support.
It all revolves around idea of the time of the blood scarfice etc.
We'd have something akin to the Scottish Parliament or New Zeland. That cousin marrying German woman would be our head of state and our national flag would most likely be some sort of thing with a Union Jack throw in the corner.
You might have that. But New Zealand is an independent country. For me a small sacrifice like that is worth it for a united independent country. BTW if we ever do have a unified 32 county ireland i doubt if our flag would be the same or our national anthem. it would have to be changed to reflect all traditions on this island - not one!
For the flag ild say it would revert to the traditional one of a harp on a blue background.
Originally posted by Éanna
pains me to have to say this on a political thread SOC, but i agree with ya 100%
The FF subscription forms are in the post.
Welcome to the Party Éanna.
Originally posted by eoinh
You might have that. But New Zealand is an independent country. For me a small sacrifice like that is worth it for a united independent country. BTW if we ever do have a unified 32 county ireland i doubt if our flag would be the same or our national anthem. it would have to be changed to reflect all traditions on this island - not one!
For the flag ild say it would revert to the traditional one of a harp on a blue background.
The Irish flag is meant to represent every tradition on this island anyway. And if the price of a United ireland is allowing Phil Coulter to invent another musical atrocity, you've got to wonder if its worth it! ;)
Originally posted by SÓC
The FF subscription forms are in the post.
Welcome to the Party Éanna.
there's as much chance of me joining the LVF :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Conor74
Or, deliberately setting out to break the direct order of the High Court and dismissing the rule of law as not applying to him because of his beliefs...
Yeah a bit like Gandhi did when he went to make salt. :) If you believe you're right, the law shouldn't stop you, and Higgins was right. Just a pity none of those so-called representatives of the people gave a toss when there were bin protests in Cork and elsewhere. same ol' dublin.......
Originally posted by Éanna
The Irish flag is meant to represent every tradition on this island anyway. And if the price of a United ireland is allowing Phil Coulter to invent another musical atrocity, you've got to wonder if its worth it! ;)
I agree about Phil Coulter. But about things like flags you cant impose things like that, there would have to be agreement.
I read recently that for the first few years the Free State had two different anthems! Even our present one had the words changed a few times
Originally posted by Éanna
Just a pity none of those so-called representatives of the people gave a toss when there were bin protests in Cork and elsewhere. same ol' dublin.......
I assume what you're trying to say is "Just a pity we didn't elect any of these representatives in Cork"?
Actually is Ferris the only SF TD whos' done time? Did Morgan or Crowe do time for something?
I thought I read some wher that 2/5 of them were convicted criminals? Or am I wrong?
Originally posted by Macy
I assume what you're trying to say is "Just a pity we didn't elect any of these representatives in Cork"?
Sure why would we bother when we get 6/10 FF TDs on 38% of the vote :D
Originally posted by Conor74
Noone is above the law, whether it's a FF TD on the take or a Sinn Fein TD running guns or a Socialist TD breaking a court order...
Or a FF TD on the take and running guns? :D
Anyone clarify whether it was a Criminal or Civil charge against Joe Higgins?
Originally posted by Conor74
Or 40%.
1/1 in the Socialist Party gives them a 100% rate when it comes to sticking two fingers at the rule of law!!...;)
Shouldn't you be off threatening people giving evidence to tribunals or something?
Wasnt Lawlor in jail for civil contempt but Higgins on Criminal?
TommyT
11/03/2004, 4:31 PM
Originally posted by Macy
You mean like Warrington? Only difference is the scale....
Touché
But when we're talking about people's lives scale is kinda important.
Originally posted by Conor74
Ahem....don't know about that. I presume Ferris felt that gunrunning was perfectly right too. And maybe, just maybe, whoever panted those bombs in Spain felt they were right. Noone is above the law, whether it's a FF TD on the take or a Sinn Fein TD running guns or a Socialist TD breaking a court order...
Yeah, I didn't quite get my point across there. What I was angling at is that there have been many politicians all over the world who have been jailed, rightly or wrongly, for things they believed in, and i don't think its a fair reason to deny them a seat in parliament. its up to the electorate to decide who is and who is not fit to represent them.
Originally posted by Conor74
Aha, you see I completely disagreed with your first point, but totally agree now you've rephrased it...
Thats better :)
Just re the point you made though, that "maybe whoever planted those bombs in Spain felt they were right." IMO, that hits the nail on the head with regard to the approach western democracies (and the USA) are approaching the issue of so-called terrorism. They DO think they're right, and those who claim to be promoting peace and democracy are doing nothing to disabuse them of that notion. If you just keep bombing these people or locking them up, you will only make them surer that they are right. The only way to deal with this problem is to try and understand why its happening. The countries who claim to be fighting terrorism are in fact fanning its flames, because they ask "who" instead of "why."
If there was a warning for Warrington then it was a very short one. If the IRA were going for so called "military" targets then wouldn't be a fraction of the total deaths in the 6 counties.
IMO been long time since the IRA fought for a cause besides greed.
my left foot
12/03/2004, 2:11 PM
the brit government quite happily absorbed military deaths for decades,civilian deaths only slightly less so.the current peace process was brought about not by adams,ahearne,reynolds,clinton,blair, major,trimble or any other politician.it was born out of necessaty after the provos finally bombed the one thing westminster really cares for namely the city of london.anyone who believes otherwise is guilty of believing in the goodness of politicians.first rule of government,its the economy...stupid.second rule....etc....etc
WeAreRovers
12/03/2004, 2:37 PM
Originally posted by my left foot
the brit government quite happily absorbed military deaths for decades,civilian deaths only slightly less so.the current peace process was brought about not by adams,ahearne,reynolds,clinton,blair, major,trimble or any other politician.it was born out of necessaty after the provos finally bombed the one thing westminster really cares for namely the city of london.anyone who believes otherwise is guilty of believing in the goodness of politicians.first rule of government,its the economy...stupid.second rule....etc....etc
110% correct. This is the point that most people choose to forget. Major came back to the table after Manchester and Canary Wharf and for no other reason.
So-called democrats, when they get into a lather about "terrorism", always overlook this fact. "Terrorism" directed against economic targets works, simple as that. I was sickened by Enniskillen and Warrington to name but two, firstly because of the senseless waste of human life, and secondly because they did nothing to advance the cause of Irish unity and a lasting peace.
As my left foot says Governments and politicians don't give a **** about people just money and the economy. The IRA's bombing of the London Stock Exchange did more to bring about the peace process than any guff from the SDLP/the Unionists or southern politicians.
KOH
WeAreRovers
12/03/2004, 3:20 PM
Originally posted by Conor74
. But I still wouldn't give the IRA much credit for attacks such as Canary Wharf...
Not giving them credit Conor just pointing out the cold hard fact that it was effective in a way that coventional politics often isn't. Unpleasant maybe but true nonetheless.
KOH
my left foot
12/03/2004, 3:28 PM
i wouldnt give them the credit either but the peace process wouldnt be necessary if the minority in the north were to accept their obvious place in life.second class citizens.lets here your argument then
brendy_éire
12/03/2004, 3:40 PM
Originally posted by Conor74
But surely there would be little need for a peace process if it wasn't for the IRA's bombing and murdering campaign
There was need. The IRA campaign started when the Catholic people asked for the IRA to protect them against the RUC and loyalists. We've needed a peace process since partition.
If it was a a single specific target that caused the end of the troubles (or should i say major events, as loyalist and ira crime violence is still happening) dont you think the IRA would have cottoned on to it sooner?
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