The great stadium debate

[peadar1987]

One of the big suggestions everyone always makes for improvement of the league is to build new purpose-built stadia for all the teams.

I think it's strange that over in the UK, there's a lot of nostalgia and regret that the original stadia are being left behind, and clubs are moving to modern arenas, which are invariably described as "soulless"

I'm not a veteran of many grounds, but I'd far rather visit a stadium with character, like Dalymount or Tolka, following the glow of the floodlights behind houses and through streets, than visit some sanitised windswept lego block in an industrial estate by the M50.

Okay, so the stadia aren't perfect as they are. Many stands could use roofs, some of them are a wee bit crumbly, and the toilet and food facilities are often shocking, but these are all problems that are fixable, and fixable for significantly less cost than building an entire new ground from scratch.

People talk about the "Tallaght effect" for Rovers, but my opinion is that this is because the TCS is new, rather than inherently better than say, Dalymount or Turners Cross. There are better ways to generate a buzz about a club than upping sticks and moving to a housing estate.

[MariborKev]

In that phrase so beloved on talk radio

"What's your point caller"

New stadium have a significant positive revenue effect, numerous studies prove it.

[dcfcsteve]

Misxty eyed nostalgia. It isn't what it used to be you know.

I'm not aware of any club who moves stadium to improve atmosphere. There's a zillion other very solid reaons why Irish clubs would want to leave what are largely ramshackle stadiums.

And I don't buy into the idea that a stadium itself creates atmosphere. The key ingredient is the fans. People talk about the 'Hampden Roar'. Go along to watch Queen Park play there and you'd more likely to hear the 'Hampden Pin drop'.

So yes - stadiums can really help an atmosphere, but it's the fans which are the key ingredient. And it's the fans we need in our league, and arguably the crumbling stadiums are deterring rather than helping in that. Dalymount once had a great reputation for atmosphere, but it's now a crumbling wreck that can't create one due to Health and Safety restrictions.

What our league needs is good quality facilities. Otherwise, we'll become even more of an irrelevance. I have no strong preference as to whether those facilities are in a new or an antique stadium - so long as they're there. And anyone who's visited Tallaght can confirm it is a much more impressive facility than the semi-derelict Dalymount

[stovelid]

"What's your point caller"


Tallaght Stadium is ****, na-na-na-na.

[CF1989]

the roof in tallaght covers f**k all of the seats. i was about 10 rows from the back wall on sunday and the ground was soaked and people were getting wet. the east stand has no glass protection on the 2 ends like the west stand has. are these being completed

[peadar1987]

Tallaght Stadium is ****, na-na-na-na.

It wasn't, actually. I like Tallaght Stadium, and it's definitely a lot better for Rovers than being homeless!

[stovelid]

The issue with facilities is all to do with parents and kids.

The things that the hardcore like: character, history, masochistic acceptance/celebration of **** facilities and the like, is all well and good but the only people taking kids along to LOI at the minute are devotees passing on the flame to their kids. It's exactly these derided "sanitized" facilities in places like Tallaght that will draw uninitiated families and their kids along for a evening out - kids who may well become supporters eventually.

[danthesaint]

good atmosphere at the SDCC Stadium alright.

i think most singing fans would prefer stadiums with roof where the sound can travel.

i like new stadiums and facilties, it attracts more people, altho when ya see a brand new stadium that it empty at matches it does look bad (the riverside for example)

[sixesandsevens]

The things that the hardcore like: character, history, masochistic acceptance/celebration of **** facilities and the like, is all well and good but the only people taking kids along to LOI at the minute are devotees passing on the flame to their kids. It's exactly these derided "sanitized" facilities in places like Tallaght that will draw uninitiated families and their kids along for a evening out - kids who may well become supporters eventually.

So your saying keep the crap facilities so it can stay a hardcore only club :confused: Thats insane! I hope that comment is just a windup.
Isn't it better to start attracting the uninitiated families rather than the 100/200 odd 'hardcore' fans that turn up at most grounds. 99% of clubs in this country would bite the hand off you for the first option.
Any stadium needs time for it to build an atmosphere, it doesn't just happen over night. But I'm sure if you were to ask any football fan in 5 years time whether they prefer Lansdowne Road or Aviva (when supporters have settled into the stadium and grown an atmosphere) they'll go for better facilities every time.

[stovelid]

So your saying keep the crap facilities so it can stay a hardcore only club :confused: Thats insane! I hope that comment is just a windup. Isn't it better to start attracting the uninitiated families rather than the 100/200 odd 'hardcore' fans that turn up at most grounds.

I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying only the committed supporter will put up with bad facilities, but if you improve the facilities you get the families in whose kids may well become the committed supporters of the future.

[Riddickcule]

Different people are affected by different things.
For most people, i would say they don't go to Loi because of the naff ground.Or the quality of the play but thats a different conversation altogether.
Having said that, i wasn't attracted to support Bray because of the ground, it wasn't even the quality of the football it was the passionate support of the fans, which what was attracting my mate who then urged me to come along to a game.

Using us as an example, no doubt the gaff is a state.But when (if) we get our redevelopment finished, and if we're back in the PD, i think it'll have an effect on crowds, i really do.
Every clubs situation is different, Rovers have their new ground which they shall continue to develop and will become a class stadium in a football mad community.
Dalyer's a state but Bohs should be moving to the new ground which should be great aswell, hopefully they could also do a rovers on the northside and stem the rivalry even further.
I mean Athlone's ground is class, Galways is class, Corks is good.

I think the FAI should take ownership of some grounds and develop them because we need a decent range of football stadia in this country which we currently do not have.
We have to use a rugby ground in Limerick, there should be a decent enough football ground to use down there, same with Cork for example.

[bishbash]

yes i may be an absolute dreamer :) but this is the type of stadium i would love to see throughout the league. Its got a capacity of just under 11,000 and is a great fascility. it would be fantastic if this was the quality of football grounds through even 50% of the league.
http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/Nor/Nye_Molde.html

[Doomofman]

yes i may be an absolute dreamer :) but this is the type of stadium i would love to see throughout the league. Its got a capacity of just under 11,000 and is a great fascility. it would be fantastic if this was the quality of football grounds through even 50% of the league.
http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/Nor/Nye_Molde.html

There's absolutely no need for stadiums of that capacity in the LOI... Hell a 3000 capacity would be more than enough for pretty much any club in the league... Fancy stadiums are great and all but you need the people to fill them which we just don't have over here

[bishbash]

But is that not the whole point? that we have a really good league here with good facilities and good support in numbers. I fully take what your saying i know the majority of clubs dont even get 3000 and then teams cant sustain their playing staff as a result. The thing about the type of stadium i was talking about is that it opens up the possibility of use for other spectacles such as concerts that can be a huge earner. Munster have done very well in this regard with concerts at thomond. This could be a real possibilty for dublin clubs with the obvious advantage of the population in dublin city and surrounding areas.

[Doomofman]

But is that not the whole point? that we have a really good league here with good facilities and good support in numbers. I fully take what your saying i know the majority of clubs dont even get 3000 and then teams cant sustain their playing staff as a result. The thing about the type of stadium i was talking about is that it opens up the possibility of use for other spectacles such as concerts that can be a huge earner. Munster have done very well in this regard with concerts at thomond. This could be a real possibilty for dublin clubs with the obvious advantage of the population in dublin city and surrounding areas.

But I don't think Ireland is in need of venues like that...

[bishbash]

But I don't think Ireland is in need of venues like that...
thats where i disagree i think the league is in real need of venues like that as i think they will help generate more interest and as said before it makes games more family friendly. I'm talkin about areas such as dublin, waterford, galway, cork, limerick. places that theoretically have the population to fill the grounds. i think quality grounds holding between 7-10 thousand would be fantastic for the league.

[sligofan4ever]

I hate to complain about it, but for a Cup Final I expected a bit better in Tallaght Stadium. The food was overpriced and the toilet facilities for the people in the North Stand was nothing short of being shocking, 4 portable jacks for 1000+ people, with sinks that dont work and flush handle that looks like the brake of a car (which didnt work either). Sat in horrible conditions, hope I never have to sit their again with the wind and rain coming right at me for 90 mins+ an hour and half before k/o and half time. Abysmal showing for a Cup Final IMO. Hats off to those who went to the trouble of putting in those seats, but I tought the facilites provided made me, and nearly everyone their feel we were treated like sh!t in terms of facilites. Tallaght will need to improve big time for the 2010 Cup Final.

[Acornvilla]

Different people are affected by different things.
For most people, i would say they don't go to Loi because of the naff ground.Or the quality of the play but thats a different conversation altogether.
Having said that, i wasn't attracted to support Bray because of the ground, it wasn't even the quality of the football it was the passionate support of the fans, which what was attracting my mate who then urged me to come along to a game.

Using us as an example, no doubt the gaff is a state.But when (if) we get our redevelopment finished, and if we're back in the PD, i think it'll have an effect on crowds, i really do.
Every clubs situation is different, Rovers have their new ground which they shall continue to develop and will become a class stadium in a football mad community.
Dalyer's a state but Bohs should be moving to the new ground which should be great aswell, hopefully they could also do a rovers on the northside and stem the rivalry even further.
I mean Athlone's ground is class, Galways is class, Corks is good.

I think the FAI should take ownership of some grounds and develop them because we need a decent range of football stadia in this country which we currently do not have.
We have to use a rugby ground in Limerick, there should be a decent enough football ground to use down there, same with Cork for example.

wouldnt agree there.. the one stand they have is grand but sure thats all it is. not saying flancare is amazing or anything but if it was finished and had a roof the whole way around i think i would be perfect for 80% of clubs here

[Longfordian]

Tallaght will need to improve big time for the 2010 Cup Final.

I heard facilities were so bad there's absolutely no chance of Tallaght Stadium hosting the 2010 final ;) .

[galwayjames]

Tallaght will need to improve big time for the 2010 Cup Final.

Hopefully the cup final will be moved back to Lansdowne Road.

[Neish]

I will be a bit sad to be leaving Naveeney street, But as anyone who has been there will know, the current Finn Park it not in great shape. So I really looking forward to getting into the New Finn Park when its finally completed.

With most of the paperwork(a long drawn out process it was) out of the way the actual construction(building work) is due to begin in mid/late spring 2010. There has been some work done on the site but mainly just clearing and draining the area. AFAIK we should be able to play in it 18 months after construction comences.

[dong]

Abysmal showing for a Cup Final IMO.

I think you're getting the team and the ground mixed up there Sligofan:)

I would say that Tallaght is way too exposed. Even on a calm day everywhere else, the wind out there is not conducive to good football usually. Also, the wind sweeps away any singing which lessens the atmosphere. Not a lot can be done about that now I suppose. Don't get me wrong, it's a great facility and if something similar was developed at the showgrounds I would be more than happy but it has its problems as a footballing venue imo.

[peadar1987]

So to sum up, its better to play in a ground that the walls collapse and only cover is a tent as opposed to a state of the art all seated ground with bars, food outlets, family areas, a top club shop etc.

Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the sarcasm, much appreciated.

If you look very closely at my OP, I actually say that the present stadiums aren't great. Many of them need a lot of work doing on them. Some of them do need to be knocked down and rebuilt. However, I don't think that this is some sort of panacea. Personally, I think many clubs would be better off staying put and redeveloping their own grounds instead of moving out to the outskirts of the city, alienating their current support. Look at the two Edinburgh clubs. They have been playing in the same locations for the best part of a century. There's never any commotion for Hibs to move to a new ground out in Sighthill or Muirhouse. They've simple expanded the ground at Easter Road and developed it into a cracking stadium.

I think that sort of thing is the way forwards for League of Ireland clubs, as opposed to simply relocating and hoping that somehow makes everything work out okay.

[osarusan]

I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying only the committed supporter will put up with bad facilities, but if you improve the facilities you get the families in whose kids may well become the committed supporters of the future.Agreed.

Nice stadiums don't make atmosphere, crowds do. Nice stadiums help to make football an enjoyable experience for the first-time fan, and hopefully they'll come again. (That said, eventually, it will be the football that keeps them coming back, not the clean toilets or nice coffee).

If the first-time fan has to stand in the pi$$ing rain with puddles all round them, they're not likely to be bitten by the LOI bug. It takes time to get so passionate about your team you'll put up with anything to watch them.

As somebody who goes to Jackman every second weekend for the season, trust me. Apart from the delicious hamburgers......

[RoversInn]

I wouldn't trade the Showgrounds for any stadium in the world :)

[Riddickcule]

I heard facilities were so bad there's absolutely no chance of Tallaght Stadium hosting the 2010 final ;) .
What are you talking about? Next years final's in Lansdowne.

[Schumi]

Whoosh.

[Mayo Red]

What are you talking about? Next years final's in Lansdowne.

Yep, supposed to be there alright, and it'll always be Lansdowne Road for most people I'd say and not this Aviva crap!!;)

[peadar1987]

Yep, supposed to be there alright, and it'll always be Lansdowne Road for most people I'd say and not this Aviva crap!!;)

It'll always be for people who remember it frm the Lansdowne days. I still call the event centre by the East Link the Point, as do all my friends. My sister, who is three years younger than me, and all her friends, never call it anything except the O2.

It depends if Aviva keep up the sponsorship agreement. If the name changes with each new sponsorship deal, people will probably all revert to Lansdowne for convenience. If Aviva stay as title sponsors for a decade or two, the name will doubtless catch on

[Mayo Red]

It'll always be for people who remember it frm the Lansdowne days. I still call the event centre by the East Link the Point, as do all my friends. My sister, who is three years younger than me, and all her friends, never call it anything except the O2.

It depends if Aviva keep up the sponsorship agreement. If the name changes with each new sponsorship deal, people will probably all revert to Lansdowne for convenience. If Aviva stay as title sponsors for a decade or two, the name will doubtless catch on

I'd be the same, I'd always call it The Point aswell. As you say, if they stay as title sponsors for the forseeable future, The Aviva will probably catch on but the way insurance companies change names who knows what they'll end up calling it?? Could be worse though, it could end up like St James' Park, i.e. the mouthful that is the Sportsdirect.com @ St James' Park Stadium!!:eek:

[Martinho II]

Hopefully the cup final will be moved back to Lansdowne Road.

is the cup final not returnin to the aviva stadium next season?:confused:

[galwayjames]

is the cup final not returnin to the aviva stadium next season?:confused:

I'd rather Lansdowne Road

[Martinho II]

I'd rather Lansdowne Road

so do I! but it really depends.. I prefer to call our ground Flancare Park but up to ten years ago I would have said Strokestown rd which isnt quite the same..

[fionnsci]

is the cup final not returnin to the aviva stadium next season?:confused:

It is as well as all future finals.

For all the ridiculous money wasted on wages at Pats to achieve nothing over the last few years you could've really tidied up Richmond Park.

New floodlights that don't massively obstruct the view and a re-paved, re-roofed shed would've been a much better use of the 1m euro Kelleher has pumped in each year.

[galwayjames]

New floodlights that don't massively obstruct the view and a re-paved, re-roofed shed would've been a much better use of the 1m euro Kelleher has pumped in each year.

Is the shed not some sort of listed building or something of that sort?

[Mayo Red]

Is the shed not some sort of listed building or something of that sort?

Listed for demolition is it??;)

[galwayjames]

Listed for demolition is it??;)

Not much to demolish :D

[Mayo Red]

Not much to demolish :D

True, wouldn't take long alright!!!

[Riddickcule]

It is as well as all future finals.

For all the ridiculous money wasted on wages at Pats to achieve nothing over the last few years you could've really tidied up Richmond Park.

New floodlights that don't massively obstruct the view and a re-paved, re-roofed shed would've been a much better use of the 1m euro Kelleher has pumped in each year.
This is what i've been banging on about, it's not just happening at Pats but at numerous clubs.
Clubs have to priortise their expenditure for the future, ie. Stadiums and Training grounds.

[bennocelt]

I hate to complain about it, but for a Cup Final I expected a bit better in Tallaght Stadium. The food was overpriced and the toilet facilities for the people in the North Stand was nothing short of being shocking, 4 portable jacks for 1000+ people, with sinks that dont work and flush handle that looks like the brake of a car (which didnt work either). Sat in horrible conditions, hope I never have to sit their again with the wind and rain coming right at me for 90 mins+ an hour and half before k/o and half time. Abysmal showing for a Cup Final IMO. Hats off to those who went to the trouble of putting in those seats, but I tought the facilites provided made me, and nearly everyone their feel we were treated like sh!t in terms of facilites. Tallaght will need to improve big time for the 2010 Cup Final.

Ye had 4? Wow there was only 3 in my end!!!! And the food was def a rip off buts Ireland for you
But wouldn't it have been all different if it was a nice day? Cant blame the club/fai for terrible winter like weather conditions

[stovelid]

The number of Portaloos has nothing to do with how decent a facility the stadium is. That's an organizational issue on the day. There are enough permanent toilets for the normal capacity of the ground.

As for the food being a rip-off, tell me anywhere that isn't.

The weather was cat. Not much can be done about that.

[Acornvilla]

The number of Portaloos has nothing to do with how decent a facility the stadium is. That's an organizational issue on the day. There are enough permanent toilets for the normal capacity of the ground.

As for the food being a rip-off, tell me anywhere that isn't.

The weather was cat. Not much can be done about that.
food in the flansiro is a grand price :)
and we have great value tea :D

[grayzer1888]

I was in Tallaght earlier in the season when it wasn't completely finished and found it to be a nice stadium. For me the best away ground has to be the Brandywell, the atmosphere and the craic above is what makes it my favourite.

[BonnieShels]

yes i may be an absolute dreamer :) but this is the type of stadium i would love to see throughout the league. Its got a capacity of just under 11,000 and is a great fascility. it would be fantastic if this was the quality of football grounds through even 50% of the league.
http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/Nor/Nye_Molde.html

That's a serious stadium, class.

We have the capacity and population in Ireland to have stadiums like this in all of the cities to be used for a multiple of functions. Municipal stadiums are one of the solutions.

They can be used for ALL sports (I know the anti-GAA fraternity here won't like that, but it helps with the viability of such a structure in this country), concerts etc. Dublin could have 2 of these without a bodger. rather than our present hotch potch of venues. TCS of course being one of them.

It's a an idea used to a great effect (and on a larger scale) in Australia (AFL) with games in Melbourne being played in Docklands/Telstra Dome and the MCG. The clubs tend to have their administrative offices/gyms/training facilities in the area that they were originally from or near enough to it, eg. Collingwood>Olympic Park, Carlton>Princes Park.

So whilst Shels might no longer play out of Tolka they could keep the offices there or train there or even move down to Ringsend. Likewise with Bohs/Fungus etc. (I'm not suggesting they move to Tolka/Ringsend, ye know what I'm getting at. :p)