Enough is enough:time to stop the outsourcing

[irishultra]

of player development to scotland and england!!!!

other countries are catching up with us, armenia beat the under 21's on tuesday night 4-1. we are in danger of becoming a very weak nation. perhaps not in 5 or 10 years but as long as the footballing infrastructure of this country is third world we face a bleak future at international level.

[pixiehead]

Ive always said this

[boovidge]

The only way you can do that is if clubs can persuade players to stay at home. The only way that'll happen is if the clubs have enough pulling power, facilities, money etc The only way that'll happen is if people actually turn up to watch Irish football.

[SkStu]

i had around 20 posts on this after the Staunton failure. Waste of time IU. People here dont want to see the link between a national leagues success and international team success.

[Razors left peg]

most of us want to see it but until the facilites are in place it cant happen

[irishultra]

yes i know skstu. but they and the rest of ireland have to realise this. how the rte panel can just ignore it when discussing the merits of the irish national team is astounding. as i say in the meantime we should be ok but eventually its going to hit us in the face and it will all come back to the state of our domestic game.

if this forum and people like dunphy question the under-21 management then the national leagues health is imperative to the state of the national team.

[rerun]

I know this is ridiculous because it will never happen, but I think that no international team should be allowed field players in their international team unless they play in their national league. It will separate players who are in it for the money and those who are interested in playing for their country. Clubs can still get the players they want, if they'll move and exile themselves from World Cup, European Championships etc. Would probably strengthen the weaker nations.

Discuss.

[boovidge]

Maybe a quota of say..5 players have to be. All players though is pretty extreme.

[irishultra]

A bit harsh I think. Its not fair that a player is born in a small country. Its only right a player be able to test himself against the best.

Would be interesting I suppose. Perhaps there should be a quota placed on the number of players in your squad playing domestically when you reach a world cup?

Oh and think about it, if Scotland is a country we are outsourcing player development to, what does it say about Ireland? Its a sad indictment of the game here.

[John83]

I know this is ridiculous ...
Yes it is. It's the worst idea I've ever read on here. Worse than the guy who suggested the FAI should own all the stadia a few hours ago.


...but I think that no international team should be allowed field players in their international team unless they play in their national league... Would probably strengthen the weaker nations.

Discuss.Ireland vs Italy would be oh so competitive, wouldn't it? International football would become half as competitive as rugby - England, Spain, Italy, France and Germany being essentially untouchable. Given the chance of playing for Bohs and Ireland or getting €50k/week, no player of any quality would stay home.

[SkStu]

Lets not get off topic here John and rerun. Theres a good and worthy point to discuss from the OP. We should probably try and stick to that. There should be no FIFA rule on this, it is entirely up to the FAI and government to get the public into the league. The public need to see that a successful domestic league will lead to a successful national team. The FAI needs to embrace this idea though and get the league in order and attractive to the general public.

[rerun]

Yes it is. It's the worst idea I've ever read on here. Worse than the guy who suggested the FAI should own all the stadia a few hours ago.

Well for starters, I know the FAI own United Park, so I wasn't touching that :)
Secondly, Italian players all playing in Serie A against a LOI Irish team? I'd watch it! Would it not improve the players playing against these teams, players that are in the LOI never get a kick in an Irish shirt. Would maybe shift the balance of power in club football away from the Chelseas and Real Madrids if there was a factor like this that might keep players in their national leagues.

[Jofspring]

This has to be done from the ground up. Too many kids around the country aren't getting the proper coaching from a young age. We rely too much on parents volunteering to coach kids and also on English clubs developing any of our players that look half decent at a young age. Something has to be done to stop top quality teenagers leaving for England only to be treated like crap by their clubs and released a few years later if they don't show promise quick. It can be very disheartening for players and a lot give up on the game because of this. The FAI need to bring in stricter rules to stop players being taken out of the country so easily.
As People have said other countries are catching up and passing us out. Countries that have put the right structures in years ago are now reaping the rewards. It sickened me last night to hear Giles and Dunphy go on about looking for anyone in England with a slight bit of Irish blood. They where basically saying it doesn't matter about the quality or even if they want to play for Ireland just drag them in to play for Ireland. That is what is wrong with this country and to be honest Ireland get what they deserve in the end with an attitude like that. I can't fault any of the players effort from last night but if the attitude i mention above continues we will go nowhere. The teams with the best structures from the ground up are developing the best players and making the top competitions and that is exactly what they deserve.

[olachico]

I never post in this forum but i thought i would add my tuppence for once!! Kevin Doyle was playing for Cork City and didnt get a look in with Ireland - he goes to Reading and a few months later he is in the Ireland team! Did he improve that much in 3 months?? I think not!! So it has nothing to do with facilities in my opinion - if a player is good enough he is good enough and it shouldnt matter where he is playing - i do however feel the problem with the Irish u-21 team is Don Givens!!!

[SkStu]

well said Jofspring.

[Jofspring]

I don't know if this is done already by the FAI but why not offer ground level coaching courses for free for people that are willing to go on and volunteer to coach kids. At least then they would have some good coaching knowledge to pass on to the kids. I think you can spot potential in a player at a very young age. I'd say the majority of top players in the world have showed their potential through their attitude and mindset towards the game from a very young age. The irish setup seems at large to bypass this stage and just pick who is decent playing abroad when they are older. Their are plenty of people trying to help these kids develop but i feel at the moment are fighting a losing battle without stricter rules. People should be worrying about football in this country and where its going, not some french guys hand.

[TonyD]

It sickened me last night to hear Giles and Dunphy go on about looking for anyone in England with a slight bit of Irish blood. They where basically saying it doesn't matter about the quality or even if they want to play for Ireland just drag them in to play for Ireland. That is what is wrong with this country and to be honest Ireland get what they deserve in the end with an attitude like that.

Agree with this absolutely. It was nauseating. What is the point of International Football if it just becomes about trawling around trying to get any players you can, by whatever means. Bill O'Herlihy even mentioned Kevin Nolan last night for chrissakes, a man who has made it perfectly clear that he considers himself English and has no intention of playing for Ireland. I'm glad I stopped supporting the Irish team. I'd rather support a team of LOI players getting thumped every match (No Pats jokes please :o). At least it would have some connection with the football I watch every week.

[Strongbow10]

lads I had another thread in another forum. was looking for ideas on how we could improve the domestic game. I'm new here and not allowed start threads of my own, but if someone else would do it for me it would be great.

It might spark some debate about how the game in ireland can be improved from the grass roots upwards. The title of it was "what can we do to improve the league of ireland".

Some of my ideas are rough around the edges. But I can see there are alot of passionate irish football fans in here who know their stuff so this thread might be more appreciated in here.

Cheers

[Jofspring]

Agree with this absolutely. It was nauseating. What is the point of International Football if it just becomes about trawling around trying to get any players you can, by whatever means. Bill O'Herlihy even mentioned Kevin Nolan last night for chrissakes, a man who has made it perfectly clear that he considers himself English and has no intention of playing for Ireland. I'm glad I stopped supporting the Irish team. I'd rather support a team of LOI players getting thumped every match (No Pats jokes please :o). At least it would have some connection with the football I watch every week.

I think Cyprus are a good example of a small country that are getting better and better as the years go on. Not only that, they now have teams competing at Champions League level. They are going forwards, while i wouldn't say Ireland are going backwards they just don't seem to be going anywhere as a whole country Footballing wise.

[tetsujin1979]

I never post in this forum but i thought i would add my tuppence for once!! Kevin Doyle was playing for Cork City and didnt get a look in with Ireland - he goes to Reading and a few months later he is in the Ireland team!
He was in the U21s while he was at cork

[Vermicious Knid]

I know this is ridiculous because it will never happen, but I think that no international team should be allowed field players in their international team unless they play in their national league. It will separate players who are in it for the money and those who are interested in playing for their country. Clubs can still get the players they want, if they'll move and exile themselves from World Cup, European Championships etc. Would probably strengthen the weaker nations.

Discuss.

And it's bye bye from International football.

[olachico]

He was in the U21s while he was at cork

Yeah but he didnt get a sniff at the senior squad until he spent those 3 long months in Reading getting to Senior International standard!

[lionelhutz]

The only way you can do that is if clubs can persuade players to stay at home. The only way that'll happen is if the clubs have enough pulling power, facilities, money etc The only way that'll happen is if people actually turn up to watch Irish football.

Its the egg and the chicken though - people will start turning up if the games are of a high quality and Irish teams start progressing more in Europe. But Irish teams won't progress unless people start going to the games and bring in large gate receipts for the teams to invest. It's a dilemma.

[passinginterest]

I think efforts are being made by the FAI to at least slow/delay the movement of young players to the UK. The regional development centers and training programmes are a step in the right direction, I think the majority of those coaching children now have at least an entrty level coaching certificate and most clubs (decent ones anyway) are willing to pay for this.
The gap between junior football and the National League is the single biggest barrier to player development in the country and it's an incredibly difficult issue to address. Developing the A League has at least given ambitious junior/intermediate clubs an opportunity to join a national league but it's only a tiny step in the right direction. Until the nations, intermediate and junior leagues can all be brought under one structure, with clear lines of progress, from county to region, to North/South to National League it will be very difficult to keep talented young players within our system.

Even if this pipe dream were to become reality the very nature of professional football will mean the migration of the most talented players to the richest clubs and countries, but hopefully the players left behind would be of superior technical ability and our national league would provide them with a viable career.

[Stuttgart88]

One thing that always galled me was that the huge corporate sponsors (pre-recession) like Guinness, AIB, Bank of Ireland etc. never saw fit to put their name to anything football related whereas rugby & GAA were all supported - probably quite substantially. Maybe I've got this wrong...

Anyway, it's a complex issue. On one count at least - tough financial regulation of the clubs - I applaud what the FAI are doing. Maybe the other initiatives will take time to bear fruit.

Does the FAI have a "Performance Director"? I met a guy at Chelsea recently and his job remit is to evaluate the success of the orgaisation's structures and personnel (players, making sure they are recruited properly, retained and looked after, other staff, benchmarking other organisations, determining the effectiveness of overseas trips from both a brand perspective and training purposes etc.). Is there such a role at FAI? I'd suggest not given Don Given's continued employment.

[ifk101]

Does the FAI have a "Performance Director"? I met a guy at Chelsea recently and his job remit is to evaluate the success of the orgaisation's structures and personnel (players, making sure they are recruited properly, retained and looked after, other staff, benchmarking other organisations, determining the effectiveness of overseas trips from both a brand perspective and training purposes etc.). Is there such a role at FAI? I'd suggest not given Don Given's continued employment.

There is a Dutch bloke within the FAI that oversees youth development and has a "Performance Director" title . What exactly he does - I don't know. The FAI also have plans for an academy in Abbottstown and if this happens, we are making progress.

[John83]

Was Packie Bonner not involved in something similar?

[Stuttgart88]

re-Bonner and Koevermans: I think that's just in relation to the performance of the players in the system.

My point is that the whole organisation should be constantly under review for achieving best practice standards, in terms of playing / coaching and administratively / commercially / organisationally. It's the type of role for someone with a MBA type background, perhaps also with senior HR or sports science or sports psychology experience.

[ifk101]

re-Bonner and Koevermans: I think that's just in relation to the performance of the players in the system.

My point is that the whole organisation should be constantly under review for achieving best practice standards, in terms of playing / coaching and administratively / commercially / organisationally. It's the type of role for someone with a MBA type background, perhaps also with senior HR or sports science or sports psychology experience.

If would be great if somebody from the FAI was willing to post a comment about this subject.

[Murfinator]

It's not the outsourcing that bothers me, many successful international teams like Portugal, Brazil and Holland have their players coming from foreign leagues. The big problem for us is that almost all of our players are being trained in England, a place with technically woeful leagues for development.

How many players trained in England or Scotland have ever been world class? The British style is to be obedient, disciplined, tackle strong and hit shots hard. Great for defensive players, woeful for technical ability with the result that everyone we send there ends up being limited confidence players with no game intelligence whatsoever. What we really need is players in other leagues so we're getting a wider range of talent.

[endabob1]

I think efforts are being made by the FAI to at least slow/delay the movement of young players to the UK. The regional development centers and training programmes are a step in the right direction, I think the majority of those coaching children now have at least an entrty level coaching certificate and most clubs (decent ones anyway) are willing to pay for this.
The gap between junior football and the National League is the single biggest barrier to player development in the country and it's an incredibly difficult issue to address. Developing the A League has at least given ambitious junior/intermediate clubs an opportunity to join a national league but it's only a tiny step in the right direction. Until the nations, intermediate and junior leagues can all be brought under one structure, with clear lines of progress, from county to region, to North/South to National League it will be very difficult to keep talented young players within our system.

Even if this pipe dream were to become reality the very nature of professional football will mean the migration of the most talented players to the richest clubs and countries, but hopefully the players left behind would be of superior technical ability and our national league would provide them with a viable career.

The LOI Clubs need to be closer to the Junior clubs in their areas, that's been one of the problems in Irish Football for years, you'll get a couple of decent junior sides but they can have zero interaction with their closest LOI side, mainly because they're afraid of players being poached etc. Which is understandable but has a detrimental effect on player development.

The FAI's moves towards regional development centres is to be applauded and maybe the restrictions on young players moving (not sure if this is coming in or just proposed?) will have an impact and give the FAI the chance to really develop high class coaching facilities for young players.

I know that the development programme is a positive step, my brother is involved in Junior soccer and keeps me updated on it and I went to one of the trials when I was last at home.

The only problem I see is a lack of faith that the FAI can get something right, they have got so many things wrong so often, it's jsut hard to see them actually making it work.

I have always though that a French/Australian style centre of excellence with coaching to the standards received elsewhere in Europe would encourage kids to stay in Ireland, what it needs is one player to go on and become a start from the local acadamey and you have your poster boy to sell it to the rest.

[Emmet7]

There isn't enough money in the domestic league to keep players like Stephen Ireland and such playing here.

[Stuttgart88]

There isn't enough money in the domestic league to keep players like Stephen Ireland and such playing here.

Nothing wrong with the best players going to where they'll earn a better living and arguably a better footballing education.

It's the level down & below that concern me more.

[irishultra]

It's not the outsourcing that bothers me, many successful international teams like Portugal, Brazil and Holland have their players coming from foreign leagues. The big problem for us is that almost all of our players are being trained in England, a place with technically woeful leagues for development.

How many players trained in England or Scotland have ever been world class? The British style is to be obedient, disciplined, tackle strong and hit shots hard. Great for defensive players, woeful for technical ability with the result that everyone we send there ends up being limited confidence players with no game intelligence whatsoever. What we really need is players in other leagues so we're getting a wider range of talent.

The issue is not loi players being in the national team, i believe players in the league should have more of a chance(i mean its madness that a team calling itself the irish international team last featured a player in a match back in 2006) but thats beside the point. all those countries develop their own players for the most part.

i agree irish need to start diversifying but this can be achieved by keeping players at home first and then the top players being sold to clubs around europe.

[irishultra]

There isn't enough money in the domestic league to keep players like Stephen Ireland and such playing here.

Again it wouldn't (from an international perspective although I'd much prefer a strong domestic league than strong national team but really both go hand and hand) be beneficial for a player of stephen irelands calibre to stay in ireland. even if we didn't have a apathetic domestic football population and had high attendances relative to our population we still couldn't provide an arena in which are top players could stay here. however as it stands, we send our middle of the road players to fecking scotland. we should be able to provide a league of a similar standing to scotland and players wouldnt really consider moving there.