France V Ireland - Wednesday, 18th November 2009 - World Cup 2010 Playoff Second Leg

[SkStu]

bit of perspective on the way Ireland came across in the past 24 hours for ye lads

nibS1aoowNg

thats actually brilliant :D :D

[strangeirish]

Even the yanks are looking at it.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/?eref=sinavInteresting interview (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/world_soccer/11/17/giovanni.trapattoni/index.html) with Trap on the same site, before the game.

[Kingdom]

I'm not too embarrassed to say I cried a little last night. I'm 28 yrs old and have only known good times supporting Ireland. In the 20yrs following Ireland teams home and abroad, last night was both the zenith and the nadir in terms of performance, emotion, quality and pride.
For the kids of JPII this was our Brussels, this was our Goodison Park, this was.....a resurrection.

Last night was as glorious as it was horrible. I've only got to page 24 and the emotion is too much. Unfortunately this match isn't as black and white as the handball. It just isn't. There are many aspects to this tie. I'll leave extra-time aside as its clearly a controversial topic.
We won our first significant away game in 22 years, a fact that I hope doesn't get lost amid all the hysteria. For all those who had that ticket (stojkovic you've got mine) for the Stade de France: treasure it, as its the first time in a generation that any Irish team has beaten a genuinely world class team with some of the greatest players of the day, away from home, in a match of significance. Not only did we beat them, I think its fair to say we humiliated this France team. All that arrogance after Sat night, all the postuering and posing, was shoved down the throats of 65/70k French supporters with change over for 14 Frenchmen on the pitch. Harried, hustled, battered, beaten, defeated and outfought over the 90 mins, we were fortunate to watch 14 of our own warriors on the same field, doing every last one of us proud.
Discussing the game with a friend leaving Croker on Sat, I ruefully commented on how apt it was that this group of players, having never achieved a result as momentous as previous generations of players have (France81, England 88, Holland 2001), would leave Croker having never achieved a win when it came to the crunch (Ger, Bul, Ita, Fra) and were left with one final chance to imbed themselves into the memories, ironically enough, that one chance being perhaps the toughest prospect ever faced by an Irish team. And they achieved it - they gave us that memory - and they should never be forgotten for it.

If you look at the tie over the two 90 min games, we totally outplayed France in 3 of the 4 45min quarters. And unfortunately the one quarter we didn't ended up being our downfall.
Every player that started the game upped their performance than the previous game. Our luck has deserted us. When was the last time two of our players had to withdraw early in a game with injury? When have we missed genuine one on one chances as last night?
Our back 4 were committed without being foolhardy - Kevin Kilbane played like a man determined no to end 102 caps on a sour note. He didn't. His enthusiasm, his desire, his passion for his country, shone through like it always has, but his football improved immensely last night, and his pass that led to the goal was a thing of beauty.
Keith Andrews, maligned so often here, challenged to a duel by Makalele #2, met the challenge and was victor by a country mile. The boy was immense, collassal, he was everywhere battling for possession, and if he never plays another game of football for Ireland again, then he can walk tall. Whelan again had an evening cut short, again where he did the simple things well, and the subtlety of his play makes me wonder do the people who proclaim to follow football, actually know anything about the game.
Our wing men were magic, offering protection to our full backs, an outlet for our middle men and being a constant menace for the French back 4, playing killer passes, bisecting french blockades, using mental fortitude to gain time by killing the ball dead (I can vividly recall the deft incuts by Liam Lawrence to evade Evra and Diarra challenges whilst setting up the runner through the middle. 4/5 of these instances I can see).
Lastly Doyler and Keano. For Doyler all I can see is John Aldridge circa 1986-1989 while Robbie Keane has improved his all round play for his country in this campaign, that his contribution should be above question. Many did question his leadership ability, well, he has answered those questions, he has become a leader.

Of the management, I believe they proved themselves over the two games. They got the tactics right in both games I feel; as I said the one quarter where we were beaten, the management could do little about. The tactics the other night were so so so right, and unfortunately we have "experts" making out as if the players decided upon this course of action themselves. Pathetic.

This is where Saipan, its reminants and fall outs can be consigned to history, and where we as a set of supporters, and they as a group of players can move forward again. I think the supporters took a long hard look at themselves early in this campaign (certainly after the Poles handed us our behinds on a plate) and set out giving unconditional support to the boys in green. And they responded every time. When our support dipped, so did the performance on the pitch, every time. Montenegro is the prime example.

So where to now? All is not perfect, of course its not, if it was we would be going to South Africa. Now that the campaign is over, a real honest appraisal has to be instigated by the management. What areas of the squad can be improved upon? I don't believe there will be any retirements, I think the emotions we saw last night, were just that, the grief that so many of us felt. Remember these players are Irish fans too.
There are definitely players who aren't up to the standard - one came on I'm afraid, Mr McShane is not International standard, and it definitely was a failing that we didn't have a better alternative that the management could trust.
The potential suitors to the squad need to set about seeking first team football. The squad doesn't need decimating, its needs replenishing.

We've 9 months to the start of the Euro qualifiers.
Brian Murphy and Kieron Westwood need game time. Shay Given NEEDS to be put in his place in this regard. He is first choice but for the sake of ego pandering we can't afford to have an untested reserve if he gets injured. We need to develop both full back positions. In this regard Eddie Nolan needs game time as should Damien Delaney in the face of no other real alternatives.
Personally I think JOSH and Dunney should still be our #1 centre half pairing (while we've been comfortable, I don't think we've been as assured with Sledge there), however in the absence of other options at right full (Seamus Coleman perhaps could be co-opted into the squad) given that Foley seems to have fallen out of favour at Wolves and Kelly is a backup at Fulham, then O'Shea reverts to right back meaning we're still shy of a reliable backup at centre half. The only people I can think of is Darren O'Dea now that he's getting game time at Reading.

Midfield I genuinely think we're sorted for. Andrews, Whelan and Stephen Reid are grand, the rift with Andy Reid needs to be mended now, and with plenty of time before the new campaign, and he needs to be given a chance. Fahey, McCann (when he's recovered) and Gibson are adequate backup, but can only be with friendly game time.
No need to speak about the flanks as we have options.

Up front its a case of what to do. Robbie is a given, Doyler we won't find anything new at this stage, so what of the support cast? Best is unrefined, Folan looks a prospect but thats all it remains to be, Noel Hunt is a poacher who doesn't fit the system I believe, while Shane Long also seems to have stagnated. Andy Keogh will have a big say in years to come if he's played in his correct position (as the #10) but Robbie is Robbie and Andy shall have to wait his turn.
For every friendly I'd love to see a B Squad announced so that our fringe players can begin to prove themselves.

Someone earlier mentioned that now the campaign was over Trap would go about revolutionising the team, the squad and the way it plays. I believe this too. We've bought into this team, now we need to believe it can flourish.
Someone also said the team that took the pitch were boys. This is a very very accurate portrayal I feel. The thing about Charlton's team(s) was that yes the leash was long, but that was because he was dealing with men, men of a different time, and that constast those teams with the current and its very much a case of men vs boys. Well that perception has very much been turned on its head. Last night 11 Irish men stared down a challenge from some of the worlds best and sent them to a place they were afraid to go. To the bottom of the soul.
The future's healthy, the future's green, don't be afraid to buy into it.
Éire abú.

[Marked Man]

Btw, for all the "Henry's always been a class act until now" contingent, may I just say: me******:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSZE7h5gyto&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym-Hyr3EsWw&feature=related

[endabob1]

Kingdom, that's a top post.

[bgille]

And then, your opinion about this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9fx4ipF4Q
did Ireland said to the referee "no there was no penalty"?

[OwlsFan]

We won our first significant away game in 22 years, a fact that I hope doesn't get lost amid all the hysteria.

Does anyone know whether this is correct. I have a feeling it goes in to the record books as 1-1.

We should have won it (the tie) in 90. The French were hopeless. We were excellent and we missed at least one gilt edged chance. I always felt we were going to pay as a result of that. I was in the rain swept Brussels Stadium when we were robbed years ago. I have seen all the dodgy decisions go against us over the years. Unlike my usual self, I had been optimistic about this game and I was proven right until Damien missed his chance. THAT was the crucial moment of the game. We were through, the French were out if we had taken that. After that I knew the best we'd get was penos, the worst a late French goal (I didn't think it would be a handball or offside etc though).

Yet another heart break. The usual scene of the players coming over to us and we applaud them and they applaud us. This alas is what following Ireland is about. The heartache doesn't go away. Fans crying, outrageous decisions but at the end of the day if you don't take your chances, you're in the hands of a late opposition goal, referee decision or the lottery of penos.

Time to move on to the next heartbreak. That's what supporting a team is all about. The joyeous moment of the Keane goal and the despair of the referee's final whistle. It's like an addictive drug.

[pineapple stu]

UCOs6yf_iOQ

46 seconds in.

Going to petition the FAI to have the game replayed.

[macdermesser]

Not sure if this point has been made already .. but if it had been Stan in charge .. I could have envisaged him telling the players to walk off the pitch after the goal stood.

What happened next?

Game abandoned ... replay? Not sure of the rules. Would have been interesting.

[Stuttgart88]

And you have one damn good keeper in Lloris
Star in the making, no doubt.

[geysir]

Trap ended up with the best starting team over the past 3 big games and after that we are thinner by varying degrees in quality. I can't praise Lawrence high enough who just came in for these 3 games and tuned in as if he had been a Trap disciple all his life.

I don't have a good feeling about all this moaning for a replay. The French have been appropriately graceful and embarrassed in their victory. No one can point to that the better team went through regardless of the late goal.

[dr_peepee]

welldone john delaney for having the balls to stand up to fifa.
im behind you 100%

Listen to it again... His statements are very carefully worded. Whilst the tone would have you think otherwise, his words leave no room for hypocracy. It's a case of "I have to do this cos it's my job". He stops short of saying he would accept a replay had it been the other way round.

[macdermesser]

no shock that Delaney and Cowen were the two most vociferous in asking for a replay. Score a few easy political points .. and at the same time thinking we're all eejits that we'll suddenly think they are doing a good job as a result of chasing this lost cause

[paul_oshea]

Lloris was immense. he was the difference, whatever about how well anelka played he was the difference.

Complete rollercoaster of emotions, turned around after the keane goal and noticed an old man in his mix sixties crying that summed it all up for me. It was hte happiest moment of my life. I knew we were all over them and had them rattled but id never say it out loud.

Met that japanese woman and her husband and baby(very cute baby!) and she was inconsolable at the end. We just sat there for half hour, none of us spoke for at least 20 mins. Im still devastated.

It really pains me to say this but Duff should have scored. They had to score twice then.

The organisation and lack of stewards in stade de france was a joke.

I remember on the way up i knelt down and said a prayer, just asking that we at least go out and do our best and get to extra time. I looked up and said to EB if you are looking down then help us out!!! We did get to extra time, but i never thought we would go out in such controversial circumstance. I have to say i was looking forward ot penos, well not looking forward but i felt if they scored we couldn't score again.

Throughout the night I looked up to the heavens just praying, hoping.

Heartbreak. Right now it feels horrible supporting Ireland.

[John83]

Kingdom, that's a top post.
tl;dr.

[jamie m]

Roy keane gives his thoughts on Henry and the FAI
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/nov/20/roy-keane-ireland-thierry-henry

[John83]

Roy keane gives his thoughts on Henry and the FAI
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/nov/20/roy-keane-ireland-thierry-henry
I wonder who would win in an anti-FAI rap battle between Roy Keane and Brian Kerr.

[Fr Damo]

Who actually values his opinion now? Ok I kinda agree that is should not have reached the 6 yard box but this is football, footballers error in judgement sometimes, as do refs and more especially managers! Of which Keane it seems is a poor one.
If I were Shay i'd start commenting on Keanes managerial record..... Given won't though cos he is much more a sportsman than Keane. Time to move on Roy!

[Greenbod]

Right now it feels horrible supporting Ireland.

Nice post....up to this point. I feel great being an Irish supporter right now!.........I'd hate to be French.

[Stuttgart88]

The soft Georgia penalty is irrelevant in this context. No Irish player dived or cheated, it was just a bad decision (just as our disallowed goal and the penalty that Doyle should have earned were bad decisions).

What would Keane have done or said if he was playing on Wednesday?

Keane's just a bitter man. Everyone should realise this including the Guardian. Even when he's right his comments are of little value.

[SwanVsDalton]

Roy Rent-a-quote, he gets journalists in a lather if he so much as opens as mouth. It's disappointing but hardly surprising.

[as_i_say]

This whole thing is getting embarassing now. Typical Keane sticking his oar in. Worse still that treacherous git Cowan.

The French media and public have reacted honorably to the situation-we need to move on and hope that the calls for video evidence can be the main positive thing to come out of this whole mess.

[lionelhutz]

Thierry Henry is a self-promoting, arrogant, dishonest dickface. That is all

[Wolfie]

Does anyone know whether this is correct. I have a feeling it goes in to the record books as 1-1.

We should have won it (the tie) in 90. The French were hopeless. We were excellent and we missed at least one gilt edged chance. I always felt we were going to pay as a result of that. I was in the rain swept Brussels Stadium when we were robbed years ago. I have seen all the dodgy decisions go against us over the years. Unlike my usual self, I had been optimistic about this game and I was proven right until Damien missed his chance. THAT was the crucial moment of the game. We were through, the French were out if we had taken that. After that I knew the best we'd get was penos, the worst a late French goal (I didn't think it would be a handball or offside etc though).

Yet another heart break. The usual scene of the players coming over to us and we applaud them and they applaud us. This alas is what following Ireland is about. The heartache doesn't go away. Fans crying, outrageous decisions but at the end of the day if you don't take your chances, you're in the hands of a late opposition goal, referee decision or the lottery of penos.

Time to move on to the next heartbreak. That's what supporting a team is all about. The joyeous moment of the Keane goal and the despair of the referee's final whistle. It's like an addictive drug.

Great post, OwlsFan.

For those of us who've been around a while, the song remains the same.

Emotions are running justifiably high at the moment given the manner of our exit and the sheer quality of our performance.

I think when the dust settles - the chances we missed within the 90 minutes will be recognised.

Remember Ireland v USSR in 1988? We were outstanding that night too. We were completely underestimated. John Aldridge volleyed over in the 2nd half and I just knew it was going to come back and haunt us.

Brilliant enough as were - its really just a tale of missed chances, yet again.

We should have killed them off within the 90 minutes and Extra Time should not have come into it. Now that's what really hurts.

[centre mid]

Cant believe that Henry has now called for a replay, shortly after FFF & FIFA had both confirmed that there will be no replay. Quality, a true ambassador of the game.

Lets start to move on now, I think the fans of Ireland have won the moral ground but nothing more. FFF & FIFA can hang their heads in shame for a week or two more.

[Conormack]

just back from paris... gutted ... completly devistated... fans were fantastic.. . stick for henry is gettin bit much at this stage... his attitude after the goal went in was shocking as two shocking handballs tat at least one official should of seen it cause i did at other end of the ground..running around as if he was the mastermind of a wondergoal... hannson never should of been in charge of such a high profile game anyway.. we defo left game behind us. prob 9 times out of ten robbie would of scored tat and missed chances in the first and second game.. defo better team over both legs but didn make chances count.. . ah well .. here's to the euro's

[paul_oshea]

Nice post....up to this point. I feel great being an Irish supporter right now!.........I'd hate to be French.

Sorry, what i meant whats it feels horrible, supporting Ireland is the greatest thing in my life, which might be sad to say but when duff put that ball back for keane, ive never felt as happy in my life as that moment. It just feels horrible.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, time to move on as far as I'm concerned.

Moral victory, moral high ground etc. We played a good game over two legs against a genuine world power with very good players and if we were more clinical we'd be going to Africa. Shame for us but it happens. Nice to see the Irish team in the international spotlight again I suppose.

Lesson for me is that if we engage teams in a game we can perform well and we have reason to feel confident again, though we need the next generation of players to start making some waves now.

[Greenbod]

Sorry, what i meant whats it feels horrible, supporting Ireland is the greatest thing in my life, which might be sad to say but when duff put that ball back for keane, ive never felt as happy in my life as that moment. It just feels horrible.

Know what you mean....but we'll all get over it....roll on the Euros. There will be many more moments to feel like you did when Keane scored...that's guaranteed. It's the really horrible moments that make the good ones so good.....glory will come.;)

[Mad Moose]

Well I've finally watched the entire match (thanks slow2anger for producing the DVD copies). Having attended the game and given our location in one corner I couldn't say much on the event that saw us exit the World Cup. I do recall Martin Hansson and his assistants having a good game up to the incident and that was confirmed watching the DVD. On the night I have to say my heart stopped as Anelka went over in the box and it looked very much like Shay caught him. An absolutely brilliant and brave decision, and the right decision at that, was made by the referee on that occasion.

I feel so sorry for Martin Hansson only because he never put a foot wrong all night and in light of Sepp Blatter's blaming him I feel this has only shown Blatter to be the useless incompetent he actually is. In no way can Martin Hansson be blamed. In watching the coverage I now have a better idea of the location of both the referee and his assistant and I honestly expected that Henry's handball was mre obvious than it actually was. It took me a few watches actually to finally see the incident and its so out of view bar the presence of the players that were chasing Henry.

I view the event so much differently now and I view Hansson differently. Its done, its in the past and its a very painful memory of what was one of the most memorable trips with the Irish Team.

[OwlsFan]

I feel so sorry for Martin Hansson only because he never put a foot wrong all night and in light of Sepp Blatter's blaming him I feel this has only shown Blatter to be the useless incompetent he actually is. In no way can Martin Hansson be blamed.

I haven't seen it yet on video but hope to soon. However, I believe he can be blamed to some extent as I don't think he consulted his linesman. Obviously from the Irish players' reaction there was something amiss. Perhaps in the meantime the third official could have looked at the video replay and whispered in his ear.


In watching the coverage I now have a better idea of the location of both the referee and his assistant and I honestly expected that Henry's handball was mre obvious than it actually was..

Sky showed the view the linesman had of the incident and it was a clear view.

ANyway, it gets stored away in the mind of the football disasters but none was as bad as this, although they all felt equally as bad at the time perhaps worse. On this occasion the whole nation and the rest of Europe are aware of the pain. In the past it was mostly just the fans attending the games or looking on from afar which made the pain a bit more personal.

[Stuttgart88]

From my view at the ground I thought the ref did go over to the linesman to consult but it was obvious that the linesman hadn't flagged for anything. Duff even ran over to the 4th official but he was having none of it.

[Junior]

From my view at the ground I thought the ref did go over to the linesman to consult but it was obvious that the linesman hadn't flagged for anything. Duff even ran over to the 4th official but he was having none of it.

Yep agree. Im sure the linesman was consulted. Its been mention here on various threads as well though I havent had chance to watch the game again yet.

[paul_oshea]

the fact that the 4th official did nothing is the thing that gets me going.....think about it.

[dan o d]

we should have walked off the pitch in protest after the handball

[jbyrne]

I haven't seen it yet on video but hope to soon. However, I believe he can be blamed to some extent as I don't think he consulted his linesman.

and his positioning was poor to allow himself be in a position where he could not see the ball

[paul_oshea]

we should have walked off the pitch in protest after the handball

You know after the game walking out, I thought to myself what would have happened had we? Trap wouldn't have let it happen. People would call us sore losers etc etc, but I dont think they would have handed France a 3 - 0 win. It would have been a precedent and given what Henry did I'm not so sure it would have been treated as severly as some thought.

[Jicked]

Was someone booked in the aftermath of the protests, Lawrence or Duff, for going over to the 4th official? It was an awful decision from the referee, even if he didn't see it, his linesman did. He could have taken the time to go over and talk to him, or consult his 4th official, have a quiet word and say they clearly got it wrong by the amazing Irish reaction. Instead Mr Hansson said it was 100% not handball, which doesn't make sense when people try to make excuses for him that his position meant he couldn't see it...

[Thunderblaster]

we should have walked off the pitch in protest after the handball

And get fined and the game awarded 3-0 to France. We would like to walk off football pitches all the time if we do not get the rub of the green (no pun intended), but football then would be in total anarchy.

[Stuttgart88]

You know after the game walking out, I thought to myself what would have happened had we? Trap wouldn't have let it happen. People would call us sore losers etc etc, but I dont think they would have handed France a 3 - 0 win. It would have been a precedent and given what Henry did I'm not so sure it would have been treated as severly as some thought.I was thinking they should have all sat down on the 18 yard line while Keane went up to Henry to ask him whether he handled it, in front of the ref.

[rambler14]

we should have walked off the pitch in protest after the handball

That would have been only worthwhile if Thierry Henry turned around to the referee and told him that he'd handeld it.

[osarusan]

and his positioning was poor to allow himself be in a position where he could not see the ball
What position would you recommend a referee puts himself in order that he can see the ball no matter where it may bounce, and how many people are in the way?

[Emmet7]

You know after the game walking out, I thought to myself what would have happened had we? Trap wouldn't have let it happen. People would call us sore losers etc etc, but I dont think they would have handed France a 3 - 0 win. It would have been a precedent and given what Henry did I'm not so sure it would have been treated as severly as some thought.

I think that's something that has to be admired in Trap, his dignity throughout all of this.

I know people say forget about it, move one, but it's only two weeks ago that it happened, it's still raw. People need to work it through their system, it's not something that can be rushed.

If I was managing Ireland I would have called the players to the sideline immediately after the Henry goal and told them to tog in.

By staying on the field, we agreed to be part of something that basically wasn't sport. A match was decided by a referee who was unsighted or had a bad view and basically had a guess at it. He might as well have been blind for all the good he was.

Matches just cannot be decided by a referee who didn't see the incident in question, but instead gives the benefit of the doubt to one team or other or in most cases the home team. That's not a game of skill, it's a game of chance. Poor players depend on chance and luck. Good players rely on skill.

In any case I think it's sad that Irish supporters are going around saying we have now become and embarrassment, an international laughing stock and all that crap. The Irish team, management and supporters have nothing to be embarrassed about. It's only self-loathing types who talk about Ireland being an embarrassment. Really it's the French who should be embarrassed, qualifying in such a pathetic way.

Couldn't win it legally, so had to steal it.

And we have Irish 'fans' who condone what the French did.

[John83]

What position would you recommend a referee puts himself in order that he can see the ball no matter where it may bounce, and how many people are in the way?
http://www.dietsinreview.com/diet_column/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/skydiver.jpg

Of course, there are problems with him not being close enough to the action, and you need a new ref every few minutes (particularly if we don't bother with a parachute), but obviously there are compromises in every solution.

[jbyrne]

What position would you recommend a referee puts himself in order that he can see the ball no matter where it may bounce, and how many people are in the way?

he was outside the box and in my opinion should have been in line with the penalty spot as thats clearly where the ball was going from the free kick in the position it was from. anyway, i blame the ref far less than the linesman on the far side

[captkeen]

From my view at the ground I thought the ref did go over to the linesman to consult but it was obvious that the linesman hadn't flagged for anything. Duff even ran over to the 4th official but he was having none of it.

The ref did look at the linesman before he put his hand up for goal, when the ball went in i looked at the ref from the moment he walked from the goalmouth to the half way line the linesman signelled for a goal..As we were up the other end had to wait for txt to tell us it was ahnd ball..

[Emmet7]

Whether he had a clear view of it or not is kind of beside the point.

I will put it this way.

Let's say you are walking down the street and you see a beautiful woman walking towards you. Not too far from the beautiful woman is a guy robbing an old woman's handbag. But you completely miss that because you are looking at the beautiful woman, even though the other incident is happening on front of you.

The player returning from an offside position was the beautiful woman. The linesman was focused on the offside player. He never even noticed Henry. It's really that simple. A linesman cannot look at everything at once, his eyes were on the offside player.

[geysir]

At least you have Paul's attention.

[irishfan86]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g59/canuckster19/cheaters.jpg

[paul_oshea]

what did federer do?!

a google later informs me drug use?!