Are Irish People Racist?

[persianpaddy]

Originally posted by eoinh
Funny just a few years ago we were going begging to the american trying to visas for our citizens. now we get a bit of wealth and we shut the door on others.


Funnier though, I give you a first hand story from today.

I had to get my re-entry visa extended today. I got to the visa office to collect a ticket on the way to work. And your man there insisted that he can't give me a ticket unless he sees my passport and makes sure i need a visa! FFS, why would I waste my time otherwise? Well I had my passport in my drawer at work!

So next thing my girlfriend came, picked up the passport and went back there. Now this time, they didn't even give her a ticket, they got the passport and processed it straight away, while hordes of poor chinese people were waiting there probably from 7:30 am!! (you can see them queining in front of the immigration office on the corner of tara street!) Probably just because she's IRISH!!!!

So what does it tell you? I think ppl are alright, some of your ****in officials, specially those who work with foreigners, have some serious issues!!! They just served her straight away while didn't even give me a ticket to come back later!!

And they're charging everyone 100 Euros for this! *******s!

Sorry that was my angry rant for today.

Now, Liamon, since when microsoft word is a reference for english language? :) Here mate, from Merriam Websters:

Main Entry: xe·no·phobe
Pronunciation: 'ze-n&-"fOb, 'zE-
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary
: one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin


---

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination


you must admit that the two of them are a tad bit different arent they?
I agree with you though, but that outsider thing is general issue everywhere and sometimes even against ppl from across the road, let alone foreigners! i.e., look at how the locals look at the dubs that go to live in west of ireland : blow ins!

[lopez]

Originally posted by persianpaddy
...I agree with you though, but that outsider thing is deeply irish and even against ppl from across the road, let alone foreigners! i.e., look at how the locals look at the dubs that go to live in west of ireland : blow ins!
And as for us plastics....:rolleyes:

[my left foot]

i`d say its more of a people thing pp2,english don`t like cockneys etc etc

[persianpaddy]

yep. It's like that almost anywhere in the world with different degrees of seriousness. I corrected my other post!

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by my left foot
i`d say its more of a people thing pp2,english don`t like cockneys etc etc

its the same in france with the south of france thinking its superior to the north.(more affluent /better weather etc).they
look at people from the north of france the way dubliners would look at culchies.(for instance)

[liamon]

Originally posted by persianpaddy


Now, Liamon, since when microsoft word is a reference for english language? :) Here mate, from Merriam Websters:

.....
you must admit that the two of them are a tad bit different arent they?

Ok, I know Microspft are not the ultimate authority on the English language, but it was more to illustrate that the 2 words are connected, if not directly interchangeable.

I guess my point (poorly made) is that although us country lads may hate "dem feckin Dubs" (and vice versa), it's a different type of hostility/fear/etc that we Irish exhibit when dealing with non-nationals form poor countries.

[my left foot]

we introduced a guy from turin to our footie team n he blanked guido(pisapoora)cos his old man is from napoli

[persianpaddy]

Originally posted by liamon
Ok, I know Microspft are not the ultimate authority on the English language, but it was more to illustrate that the 2 words are connected, if not directly interchangeable.

I guess my point (poorly made) is that although us country lads may hate "dem feckin Dubs" (and vice versa), it's a different type of hostility/fear/etc that we Irish exhibit when dealing with non-nationals form poor countries.

Point taken, and 'almost' agreed to :)

[eoinh]

Persian Paddy i think you should become a Cork City Supporter. You should at least go their away matchs in Dublin ;)

[tiktok]

just to go back to xenophobes and racists....

if someone is xenophobic, in that they 'unduly fear' foreigners, that fear, when played on by certain groups (like the BNP) who would claim to have the 'national' interest at heart can quickly transform xenophobes into racists. You can combat this with education and as has been mentioned, proper integration e.g. in the schools system.

When I look at our media though, I worry about the direction we're heading.

[persianpaddy]

Originally posted by eoinh
Persian Paddy i think you should become a Cork City Supporter. You should at least go their away matchs in Dublin ;)

Lol the only Eircom league match I've ever been to was Shells vs Shamrock Rovers in Tolka part a couple of years ago with a couple of friends (Shells fans). It was fun. Don't know about cork city though. Apart from the lovely fish stalls in your [english ;) ] market which is my mecca in Ireland!!!!

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by persianpaddy

As a [bleedin] However there's a certain degree of Xenophobia here, which is actually quite understandable to me! As someone mentioned in this post, one of the reasons is that unlike many other European countries, Ireland had never had a colonising past. Therefore there was far less number of foreigners coming here and contributing to the economy in comparison to, say, France or England. In those countries people are USED TO seeing foreigners and they know that they're not gonna take away their jobs or women! :) In Ireland majority of people simply aren't used to that and start freakin out when they see foreigners coming here... Also, in fairness Ireland can be categorized as a neuvue rich country (no offence meant, just a fact!) and people aren't used to this amount of wealth. Probably in the back of their mind they still don't feel safe enough and think that all these foreigners are gonna bring ireland back to the misery that it was up to 90s!


Yeah there may be xenophobia but there isn't as much active racism in Ireland as there is in England and France where fascist organisations like the BNP and the National Front are much stronger.

Maybe part of the reason that so many Irish people are xenophobic is the fact that few foreigners have settled in Ireland since the first people came here except for the odd Celt, Viking, Anglo-Saxon and Norman.

There has been recent genetic research saying that the DNA of Irish people especially those living in the west is shared by no other people in the world except the Basques, Scots, Welsh, Cornish and Icelandic. That would make the Irish one of the nearest things there is to a "pure race".

[persianpaddy]

Originally posted by tiktok
just to go back to xenophobes and racists....

if someone is xenophobic, in that they 'unduly fear' foreigners, that fear, when played on by certain groups (like the BNP) who would claim to have the 'national' interest at heart can quickly transform xenophobes into racists. You can combat this with education and as has been mentioned, proper integration e.g. in the schools system.

When I look at our media though, I worry about the direction we're heading.

Correct but I don't think there's anything like BNP in ireland. The most racist organization is that lunatic woman's (what's her name? The cork woman Aine something) Immigration Control Platform. And you know how many votes she got in dublin central last year? 900 !!! So don't think there's any threat of organized racism here.

However lots of your officials (guardai, foreign affairs, justice, banks - not everyone though, obviously!) are terribly racist in a hidden way! Like the example that i mentioned before that happened to me right today!

But the general population, to my opinion, don't think that Irish RACE is superior :) They are just afraid of foreigners to take their newly earned money off them!

[persianpaddy]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Yeah there may be xenophobia but there isn't as much active racism in Ireland as there is in England and France where fascist organisations like the BNP and the National Front are much stronger.


lol i was typing the very same thing at the very same time!

[dr_manhattan]

Hi PP2 - the good doctor is in the house.

It may seem strange if I contradict you about your own experiences, but I can recall at least three stories you've told me about being on the recieving end of racist irish attitudes: one is more funny than anything else, but it does betray a xenophobic attitude.

And xenophobic is a more exact term than racism, as often people will hide behind 'race' as a shield by saying that the group they hate isn't a race, so hating them isn't 'racist'. Xenophobia is a far better term when discussing ethnic- or sectarian- based hatred.

And I would say that yes indeed we are a very racist country: no country could keep a conflict going like the north without the will to hate based on birthright or place. Those who mention racism being cured by education are not necessarily correct though: true enough, education lets people know that bigotry is unacceptable, but often this just causes bigots to keep quiet.

For example, a lot of irish people hate travellers, or have prejudices against them based on experiences. The things irish people say every day about travellers (even the status of the word 'knacker' in our language, a word which originally described travellers) are things that they would NEVER say about any "race" of people from abroad, because they would consider it unacceptable. We don't think of travellers as foreign, even though they speak their own language and have a fully different set of priorities and culture to us - we just think of them as dirty people.

And this, IMHO, means that our true nature as xenophobes can be observed.

And to those who said 'oh the racism here is passive':

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=24&art_id=vn20040113015532576C855235&set_id=1

That's not very passive, is it? Almost at one attack per day, for the past year. And people seem to fail to understand that, when you tolerate racists and bigots, you become one yourself: if you stand by while people are attacked and intimidated, then effectively you are contributing in very real ways to their intimidation.

And that's besides the insults I hear aimed at chinese and eastern european retail staff every day: i work in the city centre and at least once a week will observe insults being thrown at staff whose grasp of english may not be 100%.

So that's my 222 cents, but I'll leave with this anecdote:

A while back, in the old 32college green branch of Bank of Ireland, I witnessed a scene where a customer service rep, having been utterly rude and condescending to an eastern european with poor english, became so exasperated that she swore at him and left her station.

When I returned to work I rang the bank to complain and was passed on to a manager, who, after apologising and promising he'd look into it, explained that it was "an ongoing problem for them that non-nationals with poor english were trying to open bank accounts and couldn't understand instructions"....? An "ongoing problem"?

To top this, when I asked why, if it was ongoing, there weren't multilingual staff hired to cope, he further explained that they could never get people with all the "right languages" as there were "all sorts of people" coming in. Thinking this was pretty **** poor as an explanation, I then told him how I had spent 4 years in germany and had been able to open an account with NO german whatsoever, within a week of arriving.

He paused and explained "ah well that's the germans, you see. They can all speak loads of languages"

....!

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by persianpaddy
lol i was typing the very same thing at the very same time!

Great minds think alike.

[persianpaddy]

respect to Dr Manhatan the king of kings!
All I meant is that it's kind of different from BNP-style kind of thing that's all!!! And yes that incident that you mentioned in bank is exactly the kind of government or organizaition style racism that's very common here and they easily get away with that!!!

[tiktok]

brilliant anecdote, althought you sound like an intellectual :mad: , be careful while posting ;) :D .

i think a lot of what i would consider as racist takes the form of partonising ignorance over here, cue anecdote.....

my sister was in a bar in Blackrock, Co.Dublin a few years back when a black american man sat down near her. the bar manager took the barman to one side and within earshot of my sister (so probably the man himself) told the barman to get 'that' out of here. the barman undoubtedly was thrown in an uncomfortable position, but probably fearful of the job loss, asked the american to leave, using the wonderful line...
"i'm sorry, I've nothing against ye myself, i think ye're great basketball players"

which takes me back to my education and integration (which are not going on at the moment) are essential or else we'll head down a very sorry path.

[eoinh]

Great Post dr_manhattan!

Its funny as well that if a traveller commits an offence you get the media describing them as " members of the travelling community".
Funny how you never get offences commited by " the stationary community".
Also there was a crime committed recently be two Lebenese men with irish passports! I'm sorry but two Lebenese men with irish passports are irish people plain and simple.

[liamon]

Originally posted by persianpaddy

But the general population, to my opinion, don't think that Irish RACE is superior

I'd go along with that. The Irish race isn't superior.
I am though.

[Paddy Ramone]

But aren't there racists in all nationalities Dr Manhatton. You mention the conflict in the North as proof that Irish are "very racist" but what about former Yugoslavia, Rwanda and Nazi Germany. The Irish are no more racist than other nationality.

[liamon]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
... but what about former Yugoslavia, Rwanda and Nazi Germany.

If we can only manage to be on a par with that bunch of genocidal freaks, then we're racist.

[NigeSausagepump]

To look at this question from an economist's standpoint (admittedly a rather turgid approach to take!), immigration is absolutely vital to grease the wheels of any developed economy. I'm not commenting on what level of immigration is needed, but I would suggest that in Ireland as things stand at the moment we should probably be opening our minds to accepting more, rather than few immigrants. Why?

Well, historically as economies develop (I'm thinking the US, UK, Germany, France here) the income expectations of the native population increase. No longer are they happy to take jobs flipping burgers, doing 'menial' admin tasks, sweeping roads etc for the going wages. They'll do these jobs, but not unless they get a hefty whack of a wage. Now, there are four outcomes to this dilemma.

1. Nobody does the jobs. So foreign investment by the likes of say McDonalds etc just dries up due to labour shortages. Some of the people who refused to do them stay on the dole, jacking up taxes for the rest of us.

2. The government subsidises people to take these jobs both in the private sector and the public sector. We get tax increases and public spending increased to fund these subsidies and possible inflation arising from the rising wages.

3. The affected jobs pay higher wages. This makes the companies offering them less profitable, reducing their incentive to stay in Ireland and also fuelling inflation.

4. We accept immigrants who are willing to do these jobs at the going rate.

Now I'm not suggesting that immigrants come to developed countries solely to do menial jobs - that's patently untrue. However, controlled immigration is a necessity to ensure the proper functioning of the developed economy. See Germany's 'Guest Worker' schemes in the past and the Green Card lotteries in the US.

People need to wise up in this country before shooting their mouth off about immigrants. We NEED them or we go to hell in a handbasket.

[eoinh]

This ad appeared in Tuesdays connacht Sentinel

KNOCKNACARRA
----------------------
Aisleeigh Grove: 4 Bedroom House, no coloured, Fully furnished.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



sad, very sad


Mr Peter Butler of Galway One World group called on the property company to print an immediate apology, but said he wasnt surprised. He said there were several cases where houses were "already let" when non-white people applied. Some of these turned down later asked friends to check the houses only to discover they were still available.

From todays irish times

[lopez]

Originally posted by NigeSausagepump
To look at this question from an economist's standpoint (admittedly a rather turgid approach to take!), immigration is absolutely vital to grease the wheels of any developed economy...
Top post Nige. A good critique that Karl M would have approved of. Immigrants are essential. I've always argued to the eejits on this side of the pond that bang on about scrounging refugees, that should the 1G or 2G in this country call a strike, the whole place would collapse.

Equally this is not just a racist view (that it's the blacks and brown immigrants that must clean our khasis). There are plenty of Aussies and Yanks cleaning tables in London. My problem though is with Doctors. Bliar's 'reforms' of tertiary education here means that the NHS will rely more and more on third world doctors - where obviously they are just as sought - without having to pay for their education, in what is IMO an immoral practice.

[persianpaddy]

Originally posted by eoinh
This ad appeared in Tuesdays connacht Sentinel

KNOCKNACARRA
----------------------
Aisleeigh Grove: 4 Bedroom House, no coloured, Fully furnished.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



sad, very sad


Mr Peter Butler of Galway One World group called on the property company to print an immediate apology, but said he wasnt surprised. He said there were several cases where houses were "already let" when non-white people applied. Some of these turned down later asked friends to check the houses only to discover they were still available.

From todays irish times

Appaling! Can the human rights groups bring things like this to court?

[liamon]

I think the government equality authority is looking into this.

But hey, it looks like I was wrong. We're not a racist nation. :rolleyes:

[lopez]

Originally posted by eoinh
This ad appeared in Tuesdays connacht Sentinel

KNOCKNACARRA
----------------------
Aisleeigh Grove: 4 Bedroom House, no coloured, Fully furnished.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hold up!!:confused: The c*nt's forgotten to add 'Irish or dogs' after 'no coloured.' Shurely shome mishtake? :rolleyes:

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by eoinh
This ad appeared in Tuesdays connacht Sentinel

KNOCKNACARRA
----------------------
Aisleeigh Grove: 4 Bedroom House, no coloured, -------



they left out the word ............wallpaper

[my left foot]

the economists argument stands up only if you buy the whole capitalist package.the unspoken reality is that employers welcome unqualified labour because it keeps their costs down.the recent influx into the uk even led to skirmishes btween irish casual labour and eastern europeans in willesden a few years ago.£15 pounds a day is the lowest waged guy i`ve ever met.this has led to building workers being paid the same or less than in the late eighties,while cost of living has shot up.this leads to a leap in support for racist parties as they point out this obvious but ignored policy to englands resident undereducated underclass.once more capitalism triumphs at the economic expence of the working class leaving the safety of the immigrant swinging in the wind.......of course it`ll never happen in ireland

[John83]

Originally posted by my left foot
the economists argument stands up only if you buy the whole capitalist package.the unspoken reality is that employers welcome unqualified labour because it keeps their costs down.the recent influx into the uk even led to skirmishes btween irish casual labour and eastern europeans in willesden a few years ago.£15 pounds a day is the lowest waged guy i`ve ever met.this has led to building workers being paid the same or less than in the late eighties,while cost of living has shot up.this leads to a leap in support for racist parties as they point out this obvious but ignored policy to englands resident undereducated underclass.once more capitalism triumphs at the economic expence of the working class leaving the safety of the immigrant swinging in the wind.......of course it`ll never happen in ireland
That's why we've a ****ing minimum wage. :rolleyes:

[the scout]

Originally posted by persianpaddy
Appaling! Can the human rights groups bring things like this to court?

pp2 my friend ,did you ever hear of the phrase p1ssing against the wind??