Another way

[Xlex]

is there another way. should the league of ireland be run on a roster basis with the fai holding all contracts centrally?

just to say, a squad of 20 players, paid as follows, or some variation of the structure.

4 youth team players
4 players on tier 2 wage
4 players on tier 3 wage
4 players on tier 4 wage
4 players on tier 5 wage.

bonuses depending on final league position, actual crowd at each game. all revenue retained by the governing body. all sponcership arranged through the governing body. any surplus returned back to clubs in the form of grants for youth development.

something needs trying...

[SligoBrewer]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/r_goodell_wide_0727.jpg

[BonnieShels]

is there another way. should the league of ireland be run on a roster basis with the fai holding all contracts centrally?

just to say, a squad of 20 players, paid as follows, or some variation of the structure.

4 youth team players
4 players on tier 2 wage
4 players on tier 3 wage
4 players on tier 4 wage
4 players on tier 5 wage.

bonuses depending on final league position, actual crowd at each game. all revenue retained by the governing body. all sponcership arranged through the governing body. any surplus returned back to clubs in the form of grants for youth development.

something needs trying...

If you tie this in to a total overhaul of the national league system it would be brilliant. however I don't think UEFA and FIFA would approve of this. Football Federation Australia got into trouble over the organisation of the A-League a few years back. Something to consider though.

On a sticking point though... would we trust the FAI not to make a complete hames of it?

Great idea though. It's nice to see people thinking outside the box.

[Colbert Report]

The MLS in the USA do something quite similar to this, without the revenue sharing aspect. The league does own all the individual contracts though.

[SligoBrewer]

There's too much history to go ****ing about with franchises.

[mr.untitled]

There's too much history to go ****ing about with franchises.

It's this attitude that will be the death of the LoI. Centralized contracts is a good idea, The main problem faced by the league in recent memory is players contracts, be it the Marney affair, over payment, non payment, duel contracts, it seems to never end. The other option is to sit back and see which club is next to implode due to miss management. The system isn't working.
I have been a devout LoI fan for 20 years and have seen plenty of token changes, one division, two divisions, a split premier, crazy promotion and relegation structures, a change froom Sunday to Friday, a change from Winter to Summer, 12 teams, 10 teams and so on. The structure changes every other season and none of it has worked.
There is a structure in place now that may lead to 3 senior teams in Galway, none in Cork and five (possibly 6) premier league clubs from Dublin.
Its only a matter of time till someone gives out about another "how to fix the LoI" thread, If the UEFA obstacle can be overcome, centralizing contracts should be strongly considered

[Macy]

is there another way. should the league of ireland be run on a roster basis with the fai holding all contracts centrally?
No, the FAI are less trustworthy than the clubs. The only role I would see is in centrally contracting international players, a la rugby, to keep them in the Irish game. Properly enforced licencing, along perhaps with a properly researched reorganisation of the league is what's needed. At the moment the FAI are part of the problem.

One of the main things the League has going for it is tradition. Franchise football will kill senior football in this country. We're a nation of bandwaggoners, and people see the solution as disenfranchising(?) the people that are loyal to the game?

We have the policy in place, it's called licencing. We just need the FAI to feckin enforce it, and close loopholes (such as the player barmen).

[Dodge]

It's this attitude that will be the death of the LoI.

YOu really think his sense of tradition is what will kill the league. The league thats been going nearly 90 years? :rolleyes:

There's nothing wrong with the league. Its similar to practically every league in the world.

The problem is with cheating directors/board of managements and a lack of enforcement of what are some standard rules/regulations

[Titan]

It has to be said that all sorts of things have been tried. Theyve all failed! The whole centralising of contracts and sponsorship and revenues etc is the best idea I've heard. It wont happen of course because the FAI are scared of taking responsibility. They will hide behind the whole ''were not allowed interfere with the clubs bo****.
The worst that could happen is that our clubs are not allowed compete in Europe. Would this really be a bad thing for say 3 years? It would give the League a chance to regroup and really have a crack at making a go of this. Without the ''dream'' of reaching the group stages of a European competition clubs can concentrate on the important things such as cutting their cloth according to their means.

I'm really disillusioned with Football at the moment. I'm sure by early December the withdrawl symptoms will kick in and I'll start looking for a new club but for now its XFactor all the way!

As someone who was involved with a LOI club this season I wouldnt trust 90% of the people involved to run a tap never mind a football club!

[incident]

It's this attitude that will be the death of the LoI. Centralized contracts is a good idea
Yes, centralised contracts could potentially be a very good idea as if managed properly it could ensure that players actually get paid, clubs remain under the 65%, and that clubs who default on paying wages (through the The FAI) could be quickly identified and dealt with appropriately. However that's putting more faith in the FAI than I have.

However, all of the rest of it - limits on players of a certain wage bracket or type, centralising all revenue and sponsorship, etc would be a huge mistake even by LOI standards as it'd remove independence from the clubs and create a whole new set of problems. Even then, it'd be difficult for a competent, motivated governing body to run such a system properly, so on what planet could the FAI ever manage it?

[mr.untitled]

YOu really think his sense of tradition is what will kill the league. The league thats been going nearly 90 years? :rolleyes:


I don't think his sense of tradition is whats going to kill the league, I think using this sense of tradition as an excuse to avoid wholesale change could be damaging. The tradition thing, if marketed correctly could be a huge advantage to the league. If SF (who are almost the opposite of a franchise) get promoted, we are looking at atleast 4 top flight games next season attracting crowds of under 300. we are looking at teams gambling on the 65% rule, a win or bust mentality. I could go on and on. but hey why change things, tradition and all.

[pineapple stu]

If SF (who are almost the opposite of a franchise)
And boom goes your argument.

[mr.untitled]

And boom goes your argument.

Alright PS, how are they a franchise, a franchise of what?

[pineapple stu]

A franchise league - a load of new clubs being set up with rich backers who ensure they can spend way over what they bring in an attempt to jazz things up; often, if the backers get bored and pull out, the club is simply gone.

That differs to SF how?

And I'd be very interested in why you claim that SF are the exact opposite of a franchise.

[dong]

I don't think his sense of tradition is whats going to kill the league, I think using this sense of tradition as an excuse to avoid wholesale change could be damaging. The tradition thing, if marketed correctly could be a huge advantage to the league. If SF (who are almost the opposite of a franchise) get promoted, we are looking at atleast 4 top flight games next season attracting crowds of under 300. we are looking at teams gambling on the 65% rule, a win or bust mentality. I could go on and on. but hey why change things, tradition and all.

Bohs > 300
Shams > 300
Cork > 300
Dundalk > 300
Pats > 300
Sligo Rovers > 300
Drogheda > 300, surely?
Galway > 300, only just but still.
UCD < 300
Franchise < 300

[pineapple stu]

I assume he means UCD v Fingal, UCD v Fingal, Fingal v UCD, Fingal v UCD.

[dong]

Yea, fair enough.

[Réiteoir]

A franchise league - a load of new clubs being set up with rich backers who ensure they can spend way over what they bring in an attempt to jazz things up; often, if the backers get bored and pull out, the club is simply gone.

That differs to SF how?

And I'd be very interested in why you claim that SF are the exact opposite of a franchise.

Let's all have a League
A League of Dublin Citys
That'll be the Solution
Football History Dilution

[mr.untitled]

A franchise league - a load of new clubs being set up with rich backers who ensure they can spend way over what they bring in an attempt to jazz things up; often, if the backers get bored and pull out, the club is simply gone.

That differs to SF how?

And I'd be very interested in why you claim that SF are the exact opposite of a franchise.

First off, I didn't say SF were the 'exact' opposite. SF simply are not a franchise. In this system, clubs with very little infrastructure and no fan base but with a substantial backer can enter and possibly win the league. a la Soorting Fingal. It would be far more difficult to do this in a centrally controlled system. A club like SF is made possible by an open league system, this is why they are almost the opposite to a franchise.

as for your other points
why should a centralized or 'Franchised' league consist of 'a load of new clubs being set up with rich backers'. What about using the existing clubs but the FAI holding the contracts and allocating players via a draft system. I know what everyone thinks of the FAI but they are one step up from the majority of clubs.

I respect yourself and Dodges opinions but when Dodge says stuff like 'there's nothing wrong with the league' just gets me annoyed, threads about how many teams in the premier league is as useful as having a thread on how to rearrange the deckchairs on the titanic

[pineapple stu]

Dodge, as usual, is spot on in what he says, btw.

The problem is we now think the league is the standard it's been the last few years, and people want to keep it there, not wanting to believe that can never happen.

[dong]

I think "Franchise" in relation to Sporting Fingal only came into popular use as it was derogatory and fitted nicely with the name.
What I would consider a franchise would be McDonalds, O'Briens sandwich bars etc.
Some fair points made by the original poster I think.

[dong]

Dodge, as usual, is spot on in what he says, btw.

The problem is we now think the league is the standard it's been the last few years, and people want to keep it there, not wanting to believe that can never happen.

So there's nothing wrong with the league?
Sound so.
I don't understand what you are saying in the second paragraph there Stu?

[mr.untitled]

Dodge, as usual, is spot on in what he says, btw.

The problem is we now think the league is the standard it's been the last few years, and people want to keep it there, not wanting to believe that can never happen.

fair enough but a population of 4 million, with 3 other popular field sports, living in the shadow of the biggest league in the world simply cannot sustain a league with 22 senior clubs. The league in its current form will run in to problem after problem.

We will have to agree to disagree

[pineapple stu]

So there's nothing wrong with the league?
Nope. The people who run it, maybe, but not the league itself. Centralised contracts, summer soccer, "starting again" (a great meaningless buzzword), removing clubs with no fans, the Australian A League model - all completely pointless discussions, IMO. Get any club who wants in spending what they can afford and we'll have as good a league as we can hope for. If that's not good enough for people, tough.


I don't understand what you are saying in the second paragraph there Stu?
The league is in decline, and people are now looking at new fangled ways to make it back to being as good as it was with as few financial problems as there were with no appreciation of the fact that this decline was inevitable, and that the league as it was was never sustainable.

[mr.untitled]

Get any club who wants in spending what they can afford


Sporting Fingal

[pineapple stu]

Yup. But you can also understand why people are very wary about them, given how reliant they are on external backers? And how people could be concerned that they'd lead us back down the wage-arms race route again?

[SligoBrewer]

Sporting Fingal are unlike UCD in that UCD are sustainable with their small crowds, Fungus aren't.

UCD budget well, spend little and are not dependent on money from some two bit sugar daddy.
SF are the opposite and when the money dries up once the banker/concept collapses, we'll be left with another Dublin City.

[Riddickcule]

Would just like to clarify,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchise
Franchise generally means a right or privilege. It may refer to:......
Suffrage, the civil right to vote
Franchising, a business method that involves licensing of trademarks and methods of doing business, such as:
Chain store, retail outlets which share a brand and central management
An exclusive right, for example to sell branded merchandise
Media franchise, ownership of the characters and setting of a film, video game, book, etc., particularly in North American usage


Technically, SF are not a franchise

[mr.untitled]

I have no problem with SF, my problem is the system that allows them to exist. Dodges point that this system works all over the world so its fine but I cant think of any other league (using this system) in the world that faces the same competition or obstacles as the LoI. can you?
There is a market there, whats needed is a product that they will buy.

[seand]

just regarding the semantics of franchise, in sport the concept of "franchises" comes from the states where you literally buy your way into the league. It costs something like $20m to buy a licence or franchise in MLS. The American football, baseball etc clubs are franchises that can be moved around, starting with the Brooklyn/LA Dodgers... Indianapolis/Baltimore Colts, St Louis/Utah Jazz etc etc

In that Fingal sorta bought their way into the league without working their way up in a more traditional football (soccer) style, the franchise seems reasonable to me. Like MK Dons and Livingstone across the water.

Now, if Sporting Fingal are a franchise.... are Wexford Youths?!

[mr.untitled]

Sporting Fingal are unlike UCD in that UCD are sustainable with their small crowds, Fungus aren't.

UCD budget well, spend little and are not dependent on money from some two bit sugar daddy.
SF are the opposite and when the money dries up once the banker/concept collapses, we'll be left with another Dublin City.

at the moment they have as much right to be there as UCD, If you don't want clubs like SF then you need to change the system

[pineapple stu]

Now, if Sporting Fingal are a franchise.... are Wexford Youths?!
Arguably not, given they were a Wexford league representative squad for the previous few years.


I cant think of any other league (using this system) in the world that faces the same competition or obstacles as the LoI. can you?
Are you for real? What obstacles or competition is this? The GAA? Greece supports a professional basketball league. Handball and skiing are big in the Nordic countries. A Premiership-loving public? Big around the world; doesn't sop others supporting their local club. We think our problems are big because we haev to deal with them, but they're in no way unique to this league.

What competition/obstacles are you referring to?

[mr.untitled]

just regarding the semantics of franchise, in sport the concept of "franchises" comes from the states where you literally buy your way into the league. It costs something like $20m to buy a licence or franchise in MLS. The American football, baseball etc clubs are franchises that can be moved around, starting with the Brooklyn/LA Dodgers... Indianapolis/Baltimore Colts, St Louis/Utah Jazz etc etc

In that Fingal sorta bought their way into the league without working their way up in a more traditional football (soccer) style, the franchise seems reasonable to me. Like MK Dons and Livingstone across the water.

Now, if Sporting Fingal are a franchise.... are Wexford Youths?!

Did SF or youths pay the FAI to join the league. They are just new clubs in an old system

[mr.untitled]

Arguably not, given they were a Wexford league representative squad for the previous few years.


Are you for real? What obstacles or competition is this? The GAA? Greece supports a professional basketball league. Handball and skiing are big in the Nordic countries. A Premiership-loving public? Big around the world; doesn't sop others supporting their local club. We think our problems are big because we haev to deal with them, but they're in no way unique to this league.

What competition/obstacles are you referring to?

whats with the 'are you for real', I've been polite so far.
Take nordic countries. I have family in Bergen. Iv been to see SK bran, aswell as following drogs to IK start and HJK helsinki. There is no other field spectator sports in these countries. There is no competition between football and the winter sports.
Take greece. yea they have a popular Basketball league but here there are four field games competing for the same audience. I doubt very many greeks hop on ryanair flights to ANfield or Oldtrafford every other weekend

Check my earlier posts for the obstacles facing the league

[pineapple stu]

I've also been to Brann. There's massive support for the Premiership in Norway. Norway's nearer parts of England than Ireland is, and they travel over regularly. Not an obstacle to them. There's lots of popular sports across Europe that aren't played in Ireland; blaming the existence of the GAA is a cop-out.

[mr.untitled]

I've also been to Brann. There's massive support for the Premiership in Norway. Norway's nearer parts of England than Ireland is, and they travel over regularly. Not an obstacle to them. There's lots of popular sports across Europe that aren't played in Ireland; blaming the existence of the GAA is a cop-out.

I'm not blaming it on the existence of the GAA, but the success of the GAA and IRFU must surely be considered an obstacle that the league must overcome in order to become a success, Obstacles that the Norwegian league doesn't face. Can you honestly tell me that the league did not loose fare weather fans to the GAA when it switched to summer football

[Schumi]

The biggest obstacle the league faces is that its clubs spend too much money. Overcome this and then see whether the system is broken.

[mr.untitled]

I agree, and I liked the original posters idea on how to overcome this obstacle.

[SkStu]

there is a hybrid approach which can be adopted as i have outlined a number of times on this forum before.

I firmly believe that the leagues biggest issue is the proximity and accessibility of the Premiership to football fans in Ireland. That coupled with the saturation in both the British and local media streams. Its very much a no-win situation for the FAI and the clubs though there is a compromise and possible solution that the FAI should be obliged to look into.

The FAI have a role to play in ensuring the best for football in Ireland and also for the national team. These are not linked at present but in order for us to control our own destiny in international terms, all three streams of soccer in Ireland need to be linked.

It boils down to this - we need to be a selling league. We cannot compete with British football in terms of support or success. It is just not feasible.

To be a selling league we need the following:

FAI must stop the nursery clubs from sending players abroad at a young age (or at least place a cap on the numbers that are sent abroad). The vast majority need to be kept in football in Ireland.

The best players are admitted to a FAI run, technique/tactic focussed Academy (based on successful foreign models).

Graduates from this program are "drafted" to LOI clubs based on a number of factors (similar to NFL drafts) on set wage development/professional contracts. From here the players are further developed and gain competitive playing experience within the confines of the LOI.

The best players will be transferred abroad - not just England/Scotland. The nursery club gets a slice of any transfer fee (perhaps 25%). The academy/FAI gets a smaller slice (15%) with the LOI club getting the rest (60%). The nursery club and LOI club also get a portion of any future transfer fees.

The LOI clubs are run in accordance with the licensing terms and the SCP. The government makes grants available for ground/facilities development and encourages tax incentives for domestic investment in LOI clubs.


I know that these are major changes but it seems to me to be totally necessary if the FAI have any interest in truly developing the domestic game to the benefit of our young talent and our domestic clubs. It will be met with a lot of resistance and will take a lot of work from the FAI but both the FAI and the clubs and fans need to accept what we are (or should be), i.e. a successful selling league, and move heaven and earth to get there. The trickiest part would be getting schoolboy/junior clubs on board.

[mr.untitled]

great post SKStu

whats the 'SCP' ?

[SkStu]

thanks Mr. Untitled.

SCP = Salary Cap Protocol (65% rule)

(i hope!)

[mr.untitled]

ah right

[jebus]

Major problems facing the league as I see it

- Poorly run clubs
- Poorly run leagues
- Lack of interest in Irish football
- Lack of interest in the First Division

The easiest way to sort the first two problems are for the FAI to stick to their own guidelines and punish clubs accordingly when they step out of line, also they need to stop looking for quick fixes. I realise that Cork were in poor shape when the reigns were handed over to Coughlan but surely guarantees should have been sought as to his suitability for the ownership?

The third point won't ever change dramatically, the LoI will always be a niche market and will never be able to compete with the likes of Liverpool or United for supporters. So what though, that's the way football is going across the globe anyway, give it 10-20 years and if your club haven't made the big table (whatever that will be) then you've been left behind, we've just got to this stage sooner. Also I remember a certain Cork fan telling me that Cork have the potential to be bigger than Sheffield Wednesday or Nottm Forest, that type of nonsense needs to be stamped out because if you're trying to fight the lack of creditability the league has with barstoolers saying things like that isn't going to help.

The fourth point needs to be addressed quite quickly. There's no point to the First Division, the support just isn't there for it so I'd abolish it altogether and set in motion having provincial leagues as the pyramid structure underneath the top division. With Kildare and Derry gone you can create a 20 team Premier if you wish, or you could kick out two or four other clubs (not gonna touch the criteria for doing that), and have a 16-18 team division.

Do that and it might help the league, might not either however

[Éimear]

It's been changed so many times at this stage there's no more can be done, focus needs to switched to improving attendances than changing the league structure.