10 Team PD: Good or Bad [Archive]

JC_GUFC

11/11/2009, 4:35 PM

I've always been in favour of a bigger division - I know the teams at the bottom will be weaker but it will give clubs the chance to consolidate their position in the Premier Division.

It was exciting this season with only Dundalk having little to play for in the last few weeks but at the same time it put too much pressure on other teams to get results. The top 4 in the 1st Division wouldn't have been disgraced in the Premier by any means.

peadar1987

11/11/2009, 5:08 PM

citybone

11/11/2009, 8:20 PM

Just from a personal point of view, I'd prefer a slightly bigger Premier, so I'm not watching the same opposition 4 times in a season. It's a little harder to get worked up for the fourth game against a side than it would be for the second.

But the league has problems much more serious, and much less easily solved than just having the wrong number of teams in the premier!

a 12 team slit like the spl would be good but as we would be short of clubs in the 1st division as we stand. so 2 ten team leagues would best the best situation right now.

adamd164

11/11/2009, 8:24 PM

Standard was low enough this year; bringing more first division teams up wouldn't help that.

Having said that, 7 of the 10 clubs next season are gonna be Leinster/Greater Dublin-based, which is a bit ridiculous.

oriel

11/11/2009, 8:30 PM

A 16 team Prem Div is the way forward, playing each team home and away once, add in lge cup and fai cup and prob will be up 20 home games a year, more than enough.

Have relegation to a regional lge.

KevB76

11/11/2009, 8:50 PM

I dont like the 10 team premier. Youve got the usual suspects taking up the top 4 places, and need to finish 7th or higher to guarantee staying up - so you're fighting for 3 mid-table places. So for a team thats just been promoted, you've absolutely no breathing space to adjust from a 1st div set up to prem and not be relegated staright back down, and the gap between the 1st div and top premier teams remains ever-increasing.
Also, playing every team 4 times is grand for the 1st div but just doesnt seem right and proper for our Premier league.

I would in theory be in favour of a 16 team premier, but only if there is a 10 team 1st division as well, because without the chance of promotion/relegation the whole thing is pointless apart from the few who have a chance of winning or european competition. A 26 club league is not likely, so by extension I'm not in favour of a 16 team premier.

12 team prem and 10 team 1st is what suits our league best in my opinion.

BonnieShels

11/11/2009, 11:37 PM

A 16 team Prem Div is the way forward, playing each team home and away once, add in lge cup and fai cup and prob will be up 20 home games a year, more than enough.

Have relegation to a regional lge.

I've been discussing this ad nauseum for years. A wholesale change to the structure of all Irish soccer is needed from the ground roots up to incorporate everyone rather than the ad hoc situation that we presently have that just seems tacked on. I mean the play offs this year weren't there last year and I'm not sure we can say that they'll be there next year.
This doesn't happen in Britain or in the Province, and even the IFA went through witha reorganisation over the last few years that was clearly road mapped.

I've been throwing around a few ideas with a friend the last few days since the Kildare and Derry debacles.

I've come to the conclusion that a 14 team Premier with a Scottish style split would be nigh on perfect imo.

That would give you 13 home, 13 away games pre-split (plus a further 6 games post-split).

Then comes the interesting part...

I was thinking about how the split really doesn't effect any major change to the top and the bottom of the scottish leagues and a way to solve that...

If going into the split of the top 7 and the bottom 7 where only the results against the teams on your side of the split are carried over I think you will find that pretty much every game becomes competitive throughout the season as every club still has to fight against relegation in the Bottom split and the winning of the league championship itself would be still open to many in the Top split.

I would also have a straight 2 up, 2 down policy.

I haven't refined my various ideas for the first division but underneath that teh idea of regional feeder leagues is go.

1882

12/11/2009, 12:06 AM

I've been discussing this ad nauseum for years. A wholesale change to the structure of all Irish soccer is needed from the ground roots up to incorporate everyone rather than the ad hoc situation that we presently have that just seems tacked on. I mean the play offs this year weren't there last year and I'm not sure we can say that they'll be there next year.
This doesn't happen in Britain or in the Province, and even the IFA went through witha reorganisation over the last few years that was clearly road mapped.

I've been throwing around a few ideas with a friend the last few days since the Kildare and Derry debacles.

I've come to the conclusion that a 14 team Premier with a Scottish style split would be nigh on perfect imo.

That would give you 13 home, 13 away games pre-split (plus a further 6 games post-split).

Then comes the interesting part...

I was thinking about how the split really doesn't effect any major change to the top and the bottom of the scottish leagues and a way to solve that...

If going into the split of the top 7 and the bottom 7 where only the results against the teams on your side of the split are carried over I think you will find that pretty much every game becomes competitive throughout the season as every club still has to fight against relegation in the Bottom split and the winning of the league championship itself would be still open to many in the Top split.

I would also have a straight 2 up, 2 down policy.

I haven't refined my various ideas for the first division but underneath that teh idea of regional feeder leagues is go.I like that idea. However I would only have a Premier Division, the 2nd tier would be like the A Championship. The Premier Division would consist of Bohs, Shamrock Rovers, Cork, Sligo, St. Pats, Derry (if they come back), Drogheda, Dundalk, Bray, Galway United, Shelbourne, Limerick, Finn Harps, UCD, Monaghan Utd, and Longford/Wexford/Fingal. With the rest as amateur clubs in 2 regional leagues (north/south) like the A Championship, with one from each going up.

BonnieShels

12/11/2009, 12:19 AM

I like that idea. However I would only have a Premier Division, the 2nd tier would be like the A Championship. The Premier Division would consist of Bohs, Shamrock Rovers, Cork, Sligo, St. Pats, Derry (if they come back), Drogheda, Dundalk, Bray, Galway United, Shelbourne, Limerick, Finn Harps, UCD, Monaghan Utd, and Longford/Wexford/Fingal. With the rest as amateur clubs in 2 regional leagues (north/south) like the A Championship, with one from each going up.

Yeah I was working on a Provincial regional structure promoting to a first division which would act like a filter league as such.

I put it out for comments earlier on. I'll see what comes back to me tomorrow.

Bohs, Bray Cork, Derry, Drogs, Dundalk, Galway, Shamrock Rovers, Shels, Sligo, Fungus, Pat's, UCD, Waterford were my provisional Prem. But that's not relevant. Structure the league first then decide who's in it.

1882

12/11/2009, 12:31 AM

Yeah I was working on a Provincial regional structure promoting to a first division which would act like a filter league as such.

I put it out for comments earlier on. I'll see what comes back to me tomorrow.

Bohs, Bray Cork, Derry, Drogs, Dundalk, Galway, Shamrock Rovers, Shels, Sligo, Fungus, Pat's, UCD, Waterford were my provisional Prem. But that's not relevant. Structure the league first then decide who's in it.I don't think the support is there to maintain a 1st division as it stands now. If it was to be split into 2 regions, it would increase the number of local derbys between teams which would keep interest up, costs would be lower as travel would be shorter. I think it should be in most parts an amateur league. The only major costs would be for a manager, travel and refs, which I think gate receipts would cover in most cases.

BonnieShels

12/11/2009, 12:43 AM

I don't think the support is there to maintain a 1st division as it stands now. If it was to be split into 2 regions, it would increase the number of local derbys between teams which would keep interest up, costs would be lower as travel would be shorter. I think it should be in most parts an amateur league. The only major costs would be for a manager, travel and refs, which I think gate receipts would cover in most cases.

Well that's the sort of lower league I was structuring.

Only issue there is the relegation filtering.

Say you had a North and South conference and say it's one up from each and two down from the prem. That would be fine... but what if the two prem teams to be relegated are say Cork and Limerick? You would have an imbalance in the south v the north. A solution to that would be to not let another lower southern team be promoted into that Conference.

But that opens the annual indecisive grey area taht is the LOI. I'm trying to balance this out at present.

(I talk as if I am in charge of the new LOI format... oops. :D)

DJP09

12/11/2009, 3:51 AM

I dont like the 10 team premier. Youve got the usual suspects taking up the top 4 places, and need to finish 7th or higher to guarantee staying up - so you're fighting for 3 mid-table places. So for a team thats just been promoted, you've absolutely no breathing space to adjust from a 1st div set up to prem and not be relegated staright back down, and the gap between the 1st div and top premier teams remains ever-increasing.

Agree with this point the teams coming up need time to adjust and with a 10 team league there is very little breathing space to allow them to consolidate and grow which perpetuates a league with 3/4 top teams and the rest playing to avoid relegation.

Dodge

12/11/2009, 8:04 AM

Welcome back Riddickule. Missed your constant worrying about the shape of the league...

dublinred

12/11/2009, 8:19 AM

Sorry for going back on topic but in reply to the original post I think it went very good this season there was always something to play in our own case crowds were up despite the recession and our league position for most of the season.

peadar1987

12/11/2009, 8:22 AM

Well that's the sort of lower league I was structuring.

Only issue there is the relegation filtering.

Say you had a North and South conference and say it's one up from each and two down from the prem. That would be fine... but what if the two prem teams to be relegated are say Cork and Limerick? You would have an imbalance in the south v the north. A solution to that would be to not let another lower southern team be promoted into that Conference.

They have this in England, as what they do is just shuffle the divisions a little, so if Cork and Limerick went down, and say, Athlone were in the A Championship South, they'd promote say, Cobh, and switch Athlone into the A Championship North to even out the numbers. Most of the midlands clubs, the three Galway clubs, and the Dublin clubs could conceivably play in either a north or a south division.

Macy

12/11/2009, 8:24 AM

The 10 team league was bad the last time it was tried and it's bad now. The rationale for going back to the structure was for 10 fully pro teams - well that worked out well didn't it?

16 teams would be better, once there was a structure below for relegation promotion. Part of the pressure that leads teams to overspend is because of the fear of relegation, which is hieghtened with a 10 team league - it might be more competitive, but that brings it's own problems.

The idea I've always thought might work with the wider general mentality of only caring about a few knock out games would be a north-south, or east-west, split of the entire league. Home and away, with one round of interdivisional games (every club plays every other). Title decided on play offs and a grand final for the title. It would give clubs a chance to consolidate, give clubs the chance of big gates throughout the season with which to build. You could have secondary play off's a trophy and shield to keep the competitive down the league - say bottom three of each division have no chance of making grand final day. Have 3 games on Grand Final Day and you'd have pretty much full Lansdowne Road.

Obviously it's only an idea, I've only given it as much thought as the FAI/ League give any of their changes. But back of an fag packet was good enough for a 10 team league, summer football etc....

OneRedArmy

12/11/2009, 8:35 AM

Was there really any noticeable increase in standard with the move to ten teams?

Not in any of the premier games I watched anyway. If anything the standard in the league is slipping.

And league structure makes no real impact on whether facilities are better.
Average standard dropped as there were less proper fulltime teams and quite a few quality players have left the league.

The one big difference was the gap from top to bottom was a lot narrower IMO. E.g. I thought Bray were a very tidy side, played good football and were nothing near the whipping boys most relegation sides in the past few years have been.

But as said, the monotony of playing teams 4 times doesn't help attendences.

pineapple stu

12/11/2009, 9:07 AM

Standard was low enough this year; bringing more first division teams up wouldn't help that.
Two First Divsion sides in both Cup semis, and one in both Cup finals, hints otherwise. I'd say none of the top four in the First Division this year would have come bottom of the Premier.

WoodquayBoy

12/11/2009, 9:40 AM

I'm with Oriel on this, a 16 team League of Ireland, with promotion and relegation to and from two regional A Championship teams.
I have my own thoughts on the make up of a Prem Division (such as including Derry and Cork) but can't reconcile that with their behaviour this year and with having to leave out, say, established clubs like Athlone who have struggled in the First Division

neutrino

12/11/2009, 10:13 AM

Opinion for the most part seems to depend what division your team is in. Seems to me anyone supporting a Premier Division team arent too pushed while those supporting first division teams want a Prem Division expansion.

Personally I wouldnt like to see more than 12 teams in the Premier Division. I dont think a 16 team PD would work. Other talk of splitting after x games like the SPL wouldnt work either. People tend to forget we already had this years ago and it wasnt too great.

I dont think the 10 team format has done too badly. I'd prefer to be playing teams like Bohs / Shamrock Rovers more than twice - it's not boring and makes for better games than playing teams who would struggle

Macy

12/11/2009, 10:29 AM

Opinion for the most part seems to depend what division your team is in. Seems to me anyone supporting a Premier Division team arent too pushed while those supporting first division teams want a Prem Division expansion.
Some of us now in the first were in the premier the last time the 10 team experiement failed. It was crap then, it's crap now.

neutrino

12/11/2009, 12:57 PM

Some of us now in the first were in the premier the last time the 10 team experiement failed. It was crap then, it's crap now.

It's crap now ? how ? . The league needs to find a format and stick with it. Changing it about every couple of years will do no good. If we're to make it a 16 team league then who would be in it ? As things stand add in UCD, Shels and Sporting Fingal - what other 3 teams would compete in the Premier Division and not get beaten back out of it ? I believe the format should be kept until at least the participation agreement expires.

pineapple stu

12/11/2009, 1:01 PM

Waterford would compete no problem. Then two current First Division teams who could benefit and improve in the medium term from the extra gate receipts and profile.

Macy

12/11/2009, 1:13 PM

Playing each other 4 times (at least) a year is crap. It encourages overspending as relegation is terrible, and so skewed against teams getting out (which encourages over spending in the 1st). It does no harm for teams to able to yo yo rather have to go all out every year. 10 team league is a prime example of short termism imo. I'm alright Jack, pull up that promotion ladder.

So what if a team or teams is cut a drift relatively early - happens in every league in the world.

Mr A

12/11/2009, 1:21 PM

Currently teams can meet each other 10 times in a season (potentially)

4 times in league
once in playoff
2 times in cup (with replay)
1 or 2 times in Setanta, depending on whether they sort the format
once in league cup

That's pretty mental. To me, the 16 team top division is the way to go.

pineapple stu

12/11/2009, 1:23 PM

With a proper league under that, not a mickey mouse A League with ten games or something.

Redie

12/11/2009, 2:21 PM

I've been discussing this ad nauseum for years. A wholesale change to the structure of all Irish soccer is needed from the ground roots up to incorporate everyone rather than the ad hoc situation that we presently have that just seems tacked on. I mean the play offs this year weren't there last year and I'm not sure we can say that they'll be there next year.
This doesn't happen in Britain or in the Province, and even the IFA went through witha reorganisation over the last few years that was clearly road mapped.

I've been throwing around a few ideas with a friend the last few days since the Kildare and Derry debacles.

I've come to the conclusion that a 14 team Premier with a Scottish style split would be nigh on perfect imo.

That would give you 13 home, 13 away games pre-split (plus a further 6 games post-split).

Then comes the interesting part...

I was thinking about how the split really doesn't effect any major change to the top and the bottom of the scottish leagues and a way to solve that...

If going into the split of the top 7 and the bottom 7 where only the results against the teams on your side of the split are carried over I think you will find that pretty much every game becomes competitive throughout the season as every club still has to fight against relegation in the Bottom split and the winning of the league championship itself would be still open to many in the Top split.

I would also have a straight 2 up, 2 down policy.

I haven't refined my various ideas for the first division but underneath that teh idea of regional feeder leagues is go.

Sorry but I cannot find anything for the ground roots in there.

Redie

12/11/2009, 2:28 PM

Average standard dropped as there were less proper fulltime teams and quite a few quality players have left the league.

The one big difference was the gap from top to bottom was a lot narrower IMO. E.g. I thought Bray were a very tidy side, played good football and were nothing near the whipping boys most relegation sides in the past few years have been.

But as said, the monotony of playing teams 4 times doesn't help attendences.

Very well summed up there ORA.

The quality of the league totally depends on the quality of the players you can attract to it.

The biggest draw back to the 10 team division is that familiarity breeds not only contempt but apathy too. It also means that the geographical spread of top flight football across the country is very sporadic.

Like a lot of people have said they should try and find some way to have a 14 or 16 team top division.

Schumi

12/11/2009, 3:28 PM

In an ideal world, a 16 team premier with at least a 10 team first division would be great but I don't know if there are enough quality players to have 16 teams of a decent standard.

Éimear

12/11/2009, 7:26 PM

I dont think the 10-team professiona league was the right idea in the first place, what's needed is a 12-team Premier in an All-Ireland League:

Bohs
Bray Wanderers
Cork
Drogheda
Dundalk
Galway
Rovers
Sligo
Pats
Linfield
Glentoran
Cliftonville

And the rest in regional leagues, winner of north and south automatically qualify for Premier, second in both meet in a play-off and the winner plays the 11th placed team in the Premier.

It's just my opinion but I do believe it could work.

osarusan

13/11/2009, 12:33 PM

I'd say if we tinker with the structure just one more time all our problems will be solved.

KevB76

13/11/2009, 12:45 PM

I'm dead set against the notion of a regionalised division.

For starters, I enjoy the odd trip to Ballybofey / Monaghan. All ther rest are within a relatively easy distance if you're bothered to make the effort to go.
(I wonder do many of you suggesting regionalised divisions actually travel to many away games - its really not such a big effort, at least not such that I could conceive the leagues survival is threatened by it!!!).
Apart from Derry/Harps, I dont see that there should be much extra cost involved in travelling to any other club in the country.
(Well maybe its more of a problem for Harps/Wexford or others at extreme ends of the country, but the really far off ones would only be a handful of matches a season).

Maybe, just maybe if there's a 16 team premier, I may just be able to stomach a regionalised lower division (but only if Limerick are in the premier ....which by this seasons results would have depended upon Derry being thrown out :eek: ).

Mr A

13/11/2009, 12:51 PM

I agree that the tinkering with the league needs to stop. But on the other hand the ten team league is such a bad setup, for the reasons outlined in the thread above, that it should not be left in place.

Riddickcule

13/11/2009, 9:50 PM

Ideally imo 16 team AIL:

Bohs,
Cliftonville,
Cork,
Derry,
Drogheda,
Dundalk,
Galway,
Glentoran,
Glenavon,
Limerick (?)
Linfield,
Portadown,
Rovers,
Sligo,
St Pats,
Waterford,

sheao

13/11/2009, 10:05 PM

Ideally imo 16 team AIL:

Bohs,
Cliftonville,
Cork,
Derry,
Drogheda,
Dundalk,
Galway,
Glentoran,
Glenavon,
Limerick (?)
Linfield,
Portadown,
Rovers,
Sligo,
St Pats,
Waterford,

I'd also love to see a 16 team AIL. It is probably the only way forward for football both north and south of the boarder . One 16 or 18 team division in the LOI would be great aswell.

Riddickcule

13/11/2009, 10:20 PM

16 teams would have to be optimum for an AIL..

Norway(pop.4.8m): 16 teams
Denmark(pop.5.5m):12 teams
Scotland (pop.5.1m) 12 teams

Therfore, AIL(pop.6.3m) 16 teams...That sound about right?

irishultra

13/11/2009, 10:24 PM

its HEALTHY to have rubbish teams in a league. its fun going to matches and seeing a few screamers, it makes the more harder games special. 10 team is rubbish. dilutes the games so much.

galwayjames

13/11/2009, 10:49 PM

16 teams would have to be optimum for an AIL..

Norway(pop.4.8m): 16 teams
Denmark(pop.5.5m):12 teams
Scotland (pop.5.1m) 12 teams

Therfore, AIL(pop.6.3m) 16 teams...That sound about right?

There's no point comparing with other countries, unfortunately our problem is unique and will need some original ideas for a successful plan.

Schumi

13/11/2009, 10:53 PM

There's no point comparing with other countries, unfortunately our problem is unique and will need some original ideas for a successful plan.

http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?p=1124806#post1124806

roinuj

16/11/2009, 12:06 AM

Dodge

16/11/2009, 12:30 AM

go back to the old days when we hada 16 team league.
it waas brilliant.

It was for only 1 season, and it was ****e

peadar1987

16/11/2009, 11:52 AM

go back to the old days when we hada 16 team league.
it waas brilliant.
the present 1st division is only a load of shyte and should be done away with.

my 16 teams for an all new premier league would be

bohs
rovers
cork
limerick
waterford
galway
dundalk
derry
athlone
shels
pats
sligo
wexford
drogheda
harps
longford

and turf the rest of them out.

Is there an anti-thank button? Stupid idea. Who's going to turn up to see if Longford scrape into 15th place?

Every league needs some sort of relegation, otherwise 70%+ of the teams will have nothing to play for after the first round of matches.

RonnieB

16/11/2009, 11:54 AM

Who's going to turn up to see if Longford scrape into 15th place?

I will ;)

peadar1987

16/11/2009, 12:31 PM

I will ;)

Fair enough, I would have said Bray, but roinuj appears to have evicted us from the league.

sixesandsevens

16/11/2009, 1:22 PM

I think having a 16 team division would be sensible, at least for the time being. Referring to Dodge's comment, I think a 16 team league should be given more than just one season to develop, granted messing around with the league structure every season doesn't do anything to help matters. Teams playing eachother twice a season would be of greater benefit to the teams outside of the capital. I know its good for gates when Bohs play Rovers every other month. But having Cork go to Derry twice a season and vice versa costs a lot of money in travel costs. With falling attendances I'm sure the travel costs more than what a club will take at the gate for such a fixture anyway! I can see where peader1987's point when Longford at battling for 15th place without relegation and some sort of regional pyrmaid system being set up to allow ambitious clubs outside of the LOI to start competing in the league in the future