Where would a victory against the French rank?

[shep]

Was just thinking about this and in terms of what is at stake and the limitations of our squad:would victory against arguably one of the best nations of this generation be our greatest ever achievement.

Hard to think of many if any that would top it.

[dynamo kerry]

In recent memory

1. beating holland 2001 - crunch game, everything at stake
2. beating england 1988 - massive victory in a major championships
3. reaching and being competitve in the quarter finals of the world cup 1990 - nuff said (even though the games themselves weren't great)

All of these to me would be a greater achievement

[M@ttitude]

Was just thinking about this and in terms of what is at stake and the limitations of our squad:would victory against arguably one of the best nations of this generation be our greatest ever achievement.

Hard to think of many if any that would top it.

I reckon it would be one of our finest, but you know the typical Irish pessimist would say the French played rubbish, didnt want it, bad manager and that we're still brutal..

[Scram]

Was just thinking about this and in terms of what is at stake and the limitations of our squad:would victory against arguably one of the best nations of this generation be our greatest ever achievement.

Hard to think of many if any that would top it.

Given the Staunton debacle, lack of: the Reids, Finnan and S. Ireland, defensive frailties, makeshift left back, lack of ability to control midfield or dominate possession etc. I would put qualifying for South Africa above all that has gone before.

Having said this, I will state the obvious in that “that was then and this is now”!!!

[Wolfie]

The fact that we'd have to prevail over the course of 180 mins at least - as opposed to 90 would mark it down as a great achievement.

You can't afford to have a great 90 minutes in one leg and be poor in the second. We'll have to play well consistently over the 2 legs.

I personally wouldn't rank one famous victory as better or more famous than another.

England (88), Italy (94) and Holland (01) were all great victories that will last forever in the memory.

[Stuttgart88]

This would be the best, by a distance, in my opinion.

[Paulie]

The fact that we'd have to prevail over the course of 180 mins at least - as opposed to 90 would mark it down as a great achievement.

I was just going to make this point. Considering the pool of players available to us, it would be a monumental achievement to beat France over 2 legs. If this was a one off game on neutral territory, I'd give us a reasonable chance. Over 2 games though, it's going to be extremely difficult. If we do this, I can see myself blubbering.

[paul_oshea]

Wolfie took the words right out of my mouth in a 90 min/120 min game its like a cup game, anything can happen on the day.

A two leg, home and away game, where goal difference counts, the better team 90% of the time will come out on top. IF we get through, we are the better team. Simple as that, they may have better individual players but as a team we are a better functioning unit.

So given the fact that all matches mentioned before were over 90 mins, I would put this as our greatest acheievement given how good france are and their showing at the last world cup.

Would it be the most memorable or the the greatest in terms of what it meant to the country or people, i'm not so sure. I dont think it would. For me, because I will have been at both home and away games in the play-off it probably will be.

[DeLorean]

This would be the best, by a distance, in my opinion.

It would definitely be the most dramatic turnaround in such a short space of time. I think it would probably eclipse the quarters of Italia '90 too with regards to the world taking notice, France being that much of a super power in every sense.

[youngirish]

It would be our greatest single victory by a distance (even though it's spread over 2 legs) preventing a French team who until recently were the greatest of this generation of all the European football teams (a world cup win, a euro win and a world cup final) from reaching the World Cup considering also the helping hand they have been lent by Mr Blatter and Mr Platini with possibly more to come during the games.

If any of the players read this - do it for Eirebhoy lads.

[paul_oshea]

YI, reading what you have said, not that i haven't though it previouslly, but how have they left domenech in charge for so long. Even I would probably have them further than he does given the players at his disposal. If that were England or Italy he would have been gone years ago.

Still though like in the world cup they still managed to get to teh world cup. Its like any sport, the big team always does enough when it needs to. They did it in Landsdowne when they really needed to as well.

[youngirish]

YI, reading what you have said, not that i haven't though it previouslly, but how have they left domenech in charge for so long. Even I would probably have them further than he does given the players at his disposal.

Still though like in the world cup they still managed to get to teh world cup. Its like any sport, the big team always does enough when it needs to. They did it in Landsdowne when they really needed to as well.
Exactly Paul which is why I worry we don't quite have enough to beat them when it really matters though I think we'll give them a game and maybe a scare or two.

There were similar question marks about them before the last World Cup yet they were imo the best team in the tournament, knocking out the fancied Spanish, Brazilians and Portugeuse before losing to a solid but unspectacular Italian team on penalties in a game that they had the best of.

Saying that they have lost some of their greatest players since then.

[irishultra]

Best ever. Loads of small nations beat bigger ones over 90 minutes, but in a two legged playoff, with matches right on the back of each other, this would be bigger.

[Noelys Guitar]

Probably the biggest. As we have to beat them over two legs. They have the second leg back at their place. World Cup finalists. Have a host of world class attacking options. But then again so did Holland when we took 4 points off them. Given, Keane, (Hopefully Duff), Dunne, O'Shea, and Kilbane have been through these type of games before. But for me it would be huge for us to beat France over two games.

[Greenforever]

This would be our biggest acheivment due to the fact its a two leged affair with the 2nd leg away, having said that i reckon we will do it on penalties after 2 dull draws and if we do i wont care about having spent a fortune going to all the qualifiers home n away once we get to the finals.

[TerryPhelan]

Exactly Paul which is why I worry we don't quite have enough to beat them when it really matters though I think we'll give them a game and maybe a scare or two.


I'm normally extremely pessimistic when it comes to Irish matches, as a lot of my previous posts will show. I have to stress that: when the opposition get the ball, I start cursing uncontrollably and muttering to myself that they're going to score - every corner, every free, every foray into our half has goal written all over it. So I'm not one to be blithely optimistic in the face of probability.

But, in spite of all that, I really do think this is possible for us. I highlighted the line above because it's one I've been hearing quite frequently when people talk about the playoffs. What we must remember, first off, is that we do not have to beat France. We can reach the World Cup with two draws on away goals. Keeping this in mind makes it an altogether more attainable goal, in my view. Perhaps it is too much to hope for another memorable win á la Holland 2001 or Italy 1994 - they only seem to come around once every ten years or so. But heroic draws? That's our speciality, lads. We can do this.

Secondly, for what it's worth, I should point out that many of the wiser heads in the French media actually view us as the worst possible draw they could have got. A friend of mine downloaded a number of podcasts from French radio where respected journalists and media types were discussing at length how, despite our obvious limitations, they really fear Trapattoni. They rate him as a master tactician who will have his homework done on France and they are very nervous about an upset. I know many in Ireland may not see him in quite so imposing a light given his often frustratingly negative approach and regular reliance on the long ball, but that's not the view being taken in France. They're worried.

So, much like with the two Italy games, I find myself breaking from type and actually expecting a positive result from these playoffs. I am well aware the odds are stacked against us and, man-for-man, there is little contest about which collection of players is the stronger. But to confine our predictions to these criteria is to disregard the many intangibles that also affect the outcome of big matches such as these. I believe we will do it. Two draws. Ireland qualify. And this from the biggest footballing pessimist of them all! :)

PS: in the 16 or so years of attending games, the Croker match will be the first ever truly big Irish match I'll have ever been to. Belgium '97 was the previous biggest, but France are - by reputation - the first big side I'll have ever seen live in an important competitive match. Can't wait!

[seanfhear]

It would be the biggest i would say. As previous posters have said it is over two legs with one mighty prize.

[gspain]

Hate to rain on the parade but we have qualified for 4 major finals already by beating teams ranked far higher than us.

Although beating France would be very very sweet and a real kick in the teeth to messrs Blatter & Platini not to mind adidas and French tv it would not rank with results in major finals such as wins over England, Italy & Romania.

As Jimmy Hill so eloquently put it England were very lucky to draw us in Euro88 as there were 7 strong teams in the competition and a weak Eire. We also beat an Italian team in 94 that went on to lose the final on penalties.

The whole country stopped for games like Romania and Italy too. While I imagine viewing figures would be massive (assuming it is on RTE) on the 18th I don't think the country will be brought to a standstill even if we win.

[paul_oshea]

Gspain i brought your last few points to attentino already, saying how it would effect the psyche etc, of course they wont be as big in that respect, but from a pure footballing viewpoint, a win over two legs with away goals counting, and the prize at the end, it has to be the biggest victory.

[Greenbod]

PS: in the 16 or so years of attending games, the Croker match will be the first ever truly big Irish match I'll have ever been to.

Do you not think the above might be a reason for your uncharacteristic optimism (sub consciously even)?

I'm optimistic myself by the way....but then I always am!

[Stuttgart88]

Hate to rain on the parade but we have qualified for 4 major finals already by beating teams ranked far higher than us.

As Jimmy Hill so eloquently put it England were very lucky to draw us in Euro88 as there were 7 strong teams in the competition and a weak Eire. We also beat an Italian team in 94 that went on to lose the final on penalties.
I disagree GS: when we beat those teams they had opportunities to recover. England didn't take theirs, Italy did.

This is effectively a specially-staged final - the winner takes all, loser goes home. We've only ever won one knock-out tie* - Romania - and even the Dutch game in Lansdowne was a game we could afford to draw.

Nor do I agree with the relevance of the country "standing still". The number of people watching doesn't determine the scale of the achievement. If we qualified and drew NZ there may be more watching that game in SA, but beating France over 2 legs where there is no comeback would be remarkable.

*edit: Iran also, but that isn't the same as France.

[OwlsFan]

This would be the best, by a distance, in my opinion.


Well, I am not sure about that. In the qualifications for the WC 2004, we drew away to Holland and beat them in that never to be forgotten game at home with Jason scoring the winner. That Dutch team was a class ahead of this French team and while that Irish team was stronger than our current team I don't think it would be correct to say that it would be the best "by some distance".

Just looking at a "Cuisine de France" van outside the window as I type this :D. A good or bad omen? I suppose we eat the stuff so perhaps good!

[Wolfie]

Why does there have to be an absolute most historic win??

They are all brilliant in their own right. They stand equally alongside each other as historic!!

[geysir]

It would be nice to have this discussion in 2 weeks time.

[youngirish]

Hate to rain on the parade but we have qualified for 4 major finals already by beating teams ranked far higher than us.

Although beating France would be very very sweet and a real kick in the teeth to messrs Blatter & Platini not to mind adidas and French tv it would not rank with results in major finals such as wins over England, Italy & Romania.

As Jimmy Hill so eloquently put it England were very lucky to draw us in Euro88 as there were 7 strong teams in the competition and a weak Eire. We also beat an Italian team in 94 that went on to lose the final on penalties.

The whole country stopped for games like Romania and Italy too. While I imagine viewing figures would be massive (assuming it is on RTE) on the 18th I don't think the country will be brought to a standstill even if we win.

I'd love to see the itv pundits talking about Ireland just before we beat them in Stuttgart. I remember they were unfairly dismissive of us and their arrogance made the result all the more sweet. Think Brian Clough was on the panel but was only 11 so can't remember exactly. Anyone got any clips?

[Wolfie]

I'd love to see the itv pundits talking about Ireland just before we beat them in Stuttgart. I remember they were unfairly dismissive of us and their arrogance made the result all the more sweet. Think Brian Clough was on the panel but was only 11 so can't remember exactly. Anyone got any clips?

No clips but I distinctly remember Liam Brady putting manners on Clough at half time - even though I was 13 at the time.

Brady was interviewed outside the stadium by the studio panel and I remember Bob Wilson wrapping up the link to Brady by saying "Enjoy the second half, Liam."

Brady replied, "Dont worry - I will." :cool:

[DubJohn]

Remember, we have not had a big win against quality opposition since 01.

That is a long time, and we are overdue a big result.

Over two legs it will be very difficult. 0-0 at home would not be a bad result at all.

[Brendan 82]

From a footballing standpoint I think this would be the victory that I would be most proud of. It would be an incredible achievement. Imagine all the people from around the world next summer going..."when do France play?" "hey, why no Frenchies at this World Cup?" "Oh yeah thats right, the Irish knocked them out". I will love it!!!

[Stuttgart88]

I think Brian Clough was older than 11 at the time.

OF, the Dutch team we drew 2-2 with in Amserdam was a patched up team, no? Even still, I think the current French team is better than that Dutch team - who lived on reputation.

[geysir]

We are running on the fumes of a reputation.

[DeLorean]

Why does there have to be an absolute most historic win??

They are all brilliant in their own right. They stand equally alongside each other as historic!!

The OP was only wondering would it be our greatest achievement, in terms of the level of difficulty. It could be our greatest achievement and not necessarily the most historic. I think it's quite a good thread.

[paul_oshea]

I think its a great thread.

[Emmet7]

To be honest if we take them to penalties, that would be massive.

Beating them would be incredible and I would say would rank in the top 3 Irish results of all time, not just because of the opposition but more the circumstances of the Irish team, us having few world class players, missing players through injury, the fact that it's Trap's first term and the team is in a transition period.

What we have achieved already in this qualification is remarkable and all the players and management team should be proud of what they have done. I know the begrudgers will say Italy were a poor side but the fact is they had a world class goalie, a world class defence with Grosso, Cheilini, Zambrotto who is still a very tough defender, and so on, an excellent midfield with De Rossi, Pirlo and co, and forwards who aren't the worst in the world.

Drawing with Bulgaria was also a good achievement as was avoiding the usual bananna skin that is Cyprus and Georgia for that matter.

Even our draws in qualifying were on balance good results, against the Italians and Bulgarians. To be the only team to ever make Italy drop points in Bari was a great achievement as the fans are fanatical in Bari. At the end of the match it was Trap who came out admired by the Italian fans and media, not Lippi and that says something about the media and fans who are passionately biased towards Italian national teams.

Getting to qualifying matches was a good enough achievement. Actually qualifying would be a remarkable achievement and I think Trap would have to be given almost all the credit for that, because it's largely the same players as Stan and Kerr had although missing some better players and those previous teams didn't come near qualifying.

Even if we don't qualify, it's been a good campaign that everyone can be proud of.

[paul_oshea]

We didnt beat bulgaria!

[Emmet7]

We didnt beat bulgaria!

Yes I know, I just corrected that there. I was in a bit of a rush writing that post and don't know why I said that, but it's corrected now. Of course I know we drew home and away with them.

[paul_oshea]

Yes I know, I just corrected that there. I was in a bit of a rush writing that post and don't know why I said that, but it's corrected now. Of course I know we drew home and away with them.

Ok, ill let you off this once(i assume you were only getting carried away with the excitement) only because the overall post was fair.

[geysir]

Some of you are running on fumes of a different kind.
I think you need to sit down and watch a few of our less noteworthy recent performances and get a bit grounded/real and depressed.

[Emmet7]

Some of you are running on fumes of a different kind.
I think you need to sit down and watch a few of our less noteworthy recent performances and get a bit grounded/real and depressed.

From an article I have been reading right now.

“If I want to see a show, I go to the La Scala concert hall,” Trapattoni said, “I don’t go to the football stadium.”
The Italian philosophy dictates that one point — no matter how dreary for the spectators — is a pragmatic victory. The day after Ireland’s 1-1 draw with Bulgaria in Dublin in a European Group 8 on Saturday, Trapattoni told reporters in his emphatic but fractured English: “The objective is not to lose. This qualifying thing is draw, win. But no lose.”
His teams maintain possession of the ball, defend with vigor, avoid ostentation and danger. “The memory of beautiful football lasts for a while,” he said. “The result lasts forever.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/sports/soccer/01soccer.html

So if you want to see a show go to La Scala or somewhere else. Trapattoni's job is not to entertain, it's to get us qualified. If you want someone to entertain, then we should have hired Bo-Bo the clown to manage the Irish soccer team.

[paul_oshea]

Ah come on emmet, you'd have to explain that for geysir, he would'nt know what a show was nevermind La Scala. :D

The manganese miners is more his thing ;) Or is that the fumes ive been inhaling?!?! :D

[geysir]

What cloud are you on Emmet? that has about as much relevance as an act of masturbation.

[geysir]

The performance at home against Bulgaria was awful but we didn't lose. What made that result acceptable was our performance under pressure in Sofia against a Bulgarian team up for it.

[Scram]

From an article I have been reading right now.

“If I want to see a show, I go to the La Scala concert hall,” Trapattoni said, “I don’t go to the football stadium.”
The Italian philosophy dictates that one point — no matter how dreary for the spectators — is a pragmatic victory. The day after Ireland’s 1-1 draw with Bulgaria in Dublin in a European Group 8 on Saturday, Trapattoni told reporters in his emphatic but fractured English: “The objective is not to lose. This qualifying thing is draw, win. But no lose.”
His teams maintain possession of the ball, defend with vigor, avoid ostentation and danger. “The memory of beautiful football lasts for a while,” he said. “The result lasts forever.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/sports/soccer/01soccer.html

So if you want to see a show go to La Scala or somewhere else. Trapattoni's job is not to entertain, it's to get us qualified. If you want someone to entertain, then we should have hired Bo-Bo the clown to manage the Irish soccer team.

Bobo was before Trap but I don't remember being entertained.

[tricky_colour]

I think it better to discuss the victory after it has happened ;)

[OwlsFan]

“The memory of beautiful football lasts for a while,” he said. “The result lasts forever.”

What a great quote from Trapp. Future generations will look at our 0-0 against Egypt in 1990 and say, not bad. Those of us who were at it will remember otherwise performance wise but our memories will pass with us.

This French team isn't anything to write home about but on paper they are better than us. Beating them by whatever means will rank highly. They are favourites (perhaps 65/35) but for me beating Holland at home with an average team in 2001 was our greatest achievement in a qualifying campaign.

[Royal rover]

in my view beating France would be our greatest victory - i think we had a far better side in 2001 than we have now- we had a better central midfield , fullbacks , strikers etc , than now - it would be a remarkable story - also i often hear people talk about how Italia 90 lifted us out of the doom & gloom as a nation - so equally it's important for those reasons - and i would love to see all the irish newspapers on thursday 19th of November with headline that doesn't relate to the government or economy

[paul_oshea]

People have romantic visions of irish history and the irish football teams of past years!

[magnumpi]

if we beat france it will be our greatest victory because it will be over two legs. even if we don't win either of the games, that's more impressive, to match a world class side over 180+ mins.

[Scram]

in my view beating France would be our greatest victory - i think we had a far better side in 2001 than we have now- we had a better central midfield , fullbacks , strikers etc , than now - it would be a remarkable story - also i often hear people talk about how Italia 90 lifted us out of the doom & gloom as a nation - so equally it's important for those reasons - and i would love to see all the irish newspapers on thursday 19th of November with headline that doesn't relate to the government or economy

Yes but you can be sure your friendly Govt. ministers will be jumping on the bandwagon Well, forget about it Fianna Fail, your days are numbered and it will take more than SA qualification for us to forget what you (and FG previously!) did to our country!

I’m, reminded of the 3 lads (Darren RIP) coming back from Beijing with the medals and the appalling Micháel Martin talking about how “direct targeted investment” in particular sports was now paying off…I nearly puked, my stomach hasn’t been right since. The LAST thing I want on 19th November is to hear from any of those corrupt fiddling scumbags!

[weldoninhio]

if we beat france it will be our greatest victory because it will be over two legs. even if we don't win either of the games, that's more impressive, to match a world class side over 180+ mins.


On what planet is it more impressive to draw with France and match them, rather that BEATING them???

PS. It doesn't matter anyway, i expect the match to be over as a contest by about 8.45 on Saturday evening. 0-3 France

[OwlsFan]

if we beat france it will be our greatest victory because it will be over two legs. even if we don't win either of the games, that's more impressive, to match a world class side over 180+ mins.

We matched and beat Holland in 2001 over 180 minutes (draw and win). We have a reasonable record (4-3 in their favour) in WC games against France. Holland was a huge monkey off our back.

No doubt a victory would be up there with the best. Just not sure it would be THE best.

Allez les verts.