UCD finances

[BohDiddley]

Jesus; do people still believe this nonsense, or are they just trolling when they post it?

Perhaps you should just publish audited accounts. That would put an end to this, wouldn't it?

[pineapple stu]

Probably not, given how people like to make up stuff about the club anyway.

In any event, as I'm sure you're aware, there's no point going to the added expense of filing audited accounts (including P&L) just to satisfy conspiracy theorists like yourself.

And FWIW, only a handful of clubs (Bohs and Cork that I'm aware) publish audited P&L accounts. Only about 12 clubs file accounts with the CRO, but the rest contain only the balance sheet, which gives no information on expenses. So by your logic, any financial discussion on any club bar Bohs and Cork should be banned.

[BohDiddley]

Probably not, given how people like to make up stuff about the club anyway.

In any event, as I'm sure you're aware, there's no point going to the added expense of filing audited accounts (including P&L) just to satisfy conspiracy theorists like yourself.

And FWIW, only a handful of clubs (Bohs and Cork that I'm aware) publish audited P&L accounts. Only about 12 clubs file accounts with the CRO, but the rest contain only the balance sheet, which gives no information on expenses. So by your logic, any financial discussion on any club bar Bohs and Cork should be banned.
Very well. Don't audit them and file them. Just give us a rough idea under various budget headings -- a little more than telling us on a loop how prudent and sensible you are while moaning about other clubs' folly.

[pineapple stu]

But say you get those investors to invest in the league (a 10 team league) and not the clubs.
Up there with clubs running themselves properly in the improbability stakes, I'm afraid.


Just give us a rough idea under various budget headings -- a little more than telling us on a loop how prudent and sensible you are while moaning about other clubs' folly.
I've posted the wage budget in thread. I've posted before info an the income side of things. I don't have specific admin expense info, so can't post the info you (don't) need. The fact that UCD have never welched on player wages shows you that UCD are run prudently and sensibly. Pretty much any criticism I've levied at other clubs has been justified.

Perhaps you or gael353 might back up your theory that all our expenses are paid for by the college?


Will Sporting Fingal able to maintain a Premier division side with the quality of players they have long term from the the money coming through the gates on match days? Only time will tell
Eh, no. I think simple maths will tell.

[BohDiddley]

Perhaps you or gael353 might back up your theory that all our expenses are paid for by the college.

No PS. It's the people inside the club who give account of it to those outside. I don't ask you to provide me with details on Bohs. I, or my club, give those to you.

As long as your financial affairs remain largely opaque, it will be perfectly reasonable for those on the outside to assume that those parts which you prefer not to open to scrutiny are, or may be, subject to subvention by dint of being within UCD. And it will be reasonable to find your perpetual lecturing on these matters rather trite and hollow.

I agree with you essentially on the principles, especially in relation to the abomination that is Sporting Franchise. It's just a pity that you can't shine that righteous beacon of light with some real figures from the real world.

[pineapple stu]

Is that the €17.5k per week?
Where did you get it from?
Meant our (approx) wage budget of E3k a week.


No PS. It's the people inside the club who give account of it to those outside.
Alas, no. If you're going to go off making up conspiracy theories about another club, it's up to you to provide some element of back-up. Otherwise, you may as well accuse us of using child labour to design our match tickets, or of using Nazi gold to finance our evil plot to hold back the ambitions of all the good and honourable clubs in the league.

[BohDiddley]

If you're going to go off making up conspiracy theories about another club, it's up to you to provide some element of back-up.
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's just what's apparent from your setup. If you want people to stop thinking the obvious, i.e that the association with the college does materially benefit you, then you really should be able to show rather than tell.


Otherwise, you may as well accuse us of using child labour to design our match tickets, or of using Nazi gold to finance our evil plot to hold back the ambitions of all the good and honourable clubs in the league.
What's happening Ted? :eek:

[John83]

As long as your financial affairs remain largely opaque, it will be perfectly reasonable for those on the outside to assume that those parts which you prefer not to open to scrutiny are, or may be, subject to subvention by dint of being within UCD.
You have us. We've been padding our budget with money from the pink unicorn Dick Shakespeare keeps in the home dressing rooms.

An earlier post in this thread claimed that our ground maintenance is covered by the university. This is false.

It claimed that our stadium was paid for by the university. This is not only false, but irrelevant, as many other clubs have not paid to build their own stadium.

You have speculated on our ESB bill, but I know that the club pays for that too - I can recall our club secretary bemoaning the cost of running the floodlights for a training session - he stated an approximate cost at the time too.

You've accused us of getting office space for free - I doubt it: even the schools are expected to pay for the space they occupy: people I know in physics have complained about that cost in my presence, saying they had to cut back on their office and lab space for that reason.

The direct income the club gets from the college, as has been repeatedly stated, is about enough for the running costs of the intervarsity teams, a cost other clubs don't have. The indirect benefits are negligible.

Frankly, the only think you've accused us of I can't be reasonably certain about is photocopying costs. And if you think subsidised photocopying has us top of the First Division, well, I look forward to your insights on Bohs' next set of accounts. I can never read enough good comedy.

[pineapple stu]

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's just what's apparent from your setup.
What - that we're based in a college?

I reckon it's apparent from Waterford United's close ties with the Waterford Council that the club pay none of their own expenses at all. See how ridiculous that sounds?


If you want people to stop thinking the obvious, i.e that the association with the college doesn't materially benefit you, then you really should be able to show rather than tell.
Of course the association with the college benefits us. The scholarship scheme (which the club pays for) wouldn't work without the association. However, there is absolutely nothing to suggest - bar your own over-active imagination - that the college bankrolls the club. I can tell you that anecdotally without needing to post detailed accounts.

(UCD stuff split to its own thread)

Edit - one last point, using figures which have been mentioned before. Our budget for this year is approx E300k. Our wage budget is approx E3k a week - over 40 weeks, this is E120k. What are we doing with the balance? Having money fights, perchance?

[BohDiddley]

I've lost interest since the modding got heavy on this.

As I say, it's not a conspiracy; there are no flowcharts and shady people in corners. Just a handy arrangement with the biggest third level institution in the country, which works in ways only UCD people know. You can try to convince people otherwise with bluster (expect more) and infractions, but you won't do so until you have accounts that enumerate any and all ways in which such a situation potentially could be of benefit.

Pineapple, if you want to be right, that's ok. You're The Man, and you're free to post what you like and censor what you like even though you have an interest in the argument.

That's not straight dealing, but it's your little bowl of influence and I wouldn't presume to take it from you.

[marinobohs]

What - that we're based in a college?

I reckon it's apparent from Waterford United's close ties with the Waterford Council that the club pay none of their own expenses at all. See how ridiculous that sounds?


Of course the association with the college benefits us. The scholarship scheme (which the club pays for) wouldn't work without the association. However, there is absolutely nothing to suggest - bar your own over-active imagination - that the college bankrolls the club. I can tell you that anecdotally without needing to post detailed accounts.

(UCD stuff split to its own thread)

Edit - one last point, using figures which have been mentioned before. Our budget for this year is approx E300k. Our wage budget is approx E3k a week - over 40 weeks, this is E120k. What are we doing with the balance? Having money fights, perchance?

Jesus H lads, do we not have enough clubs in trouble without negitive speculation about one that may/may not be ?
I have no idea about the finanaces of UCD (apart from what I read here) but genuinely hope that things are as PS states.
If there is some benifit gained from attachment to UCD then good luck to them ! various clubs enjoy some local benifit but I would be genuinely surprised if UCD had money to divert to the football club given the collages own finanacial difficulties. Cheer up there is always a chance (just a small chance ) that a LOI club is doing well under its own steam. it will never catch on though ;)

[BohDiddley]

Jesus H lads, do we not have enough clubs in trouble without negitive speculation about one that may/may not be ?
I have no idea about the finanaces of UCD (apart from what I read here) but genuinely hope that things are as PS states.
If there is some benifit gained from attachment to UCD then good luck to them ! various clubs enjoy some local benifit but I would be genuinely surprised if UCD had money to divert to the football club given the collages own finanacial difficulties. Cheer up there is always a chance (just a small chance ) that a LOI club is doing well under its own steam. it will never catch on though ;)
Happy to go along with that MB. I'm all for not glorying in the negatives surrounding other clubs.
I'm not especially exercised by UCD's finances. They are only relevant in the context of the always-on sanctimony coming from that quarter with respect to the sins and follies of others, while their own affairs remain an unaccounted mystery.

[peadar1987]

I've lost interest since the modding got heavy on this.

As I say, it's not a conspiracy; there are no flowcharts and shady people in corners. Just a handy arrangement with the biggest third level institution in the country, which works in ways only UCD people know. You can try to convince people otherwise with bluster (expect more) and infractions, but you won't do so until you have accounts that enumerate any and all ways in which such a situation potentially could be of benefit.


UCC?!

[Schumi]

DIT is the biggest in terms of numbers of students afaik. I assume BohDiddley meant best. ;)

[superfrank]

DIT is the biggest in terms of numbers of students afaik. I assume BohDiddley meant best. ;)
UCD certainly sounds to be a lot better run then DIT.

FWIW, I think the DIT student number is c. 22k full-time students. Don't know about part-time.

[BohDiddley]

I assume BohDiddley meant best. ;)

No comment!

I meant the biggest single college. DIT probably is the largest 3rd level entity all right. I don't know their football set-up, either in terms of participation in college leagues or ownership/access to facilities, but I'd imagine they could support a decent LoI setup without extending themselves too much either.

[superfrank]

I don't know their football set-up, either in terms of participation in college leagues or ownership/access to facilities, but I'd imagine they could support a decent LoI setup without extending themselves too much either.
There are several DIT teams of varying success in the intervarsity system and several players from these teams play/played for LoI teams. The teams share facilities with DIT GAA and maybe with DIT Rugby (not sure about that one, though). The main pitches are at Grangegorman but I don't know if DIT own them.

ATM, there is a moratorium on the renewal of contracts for all non-academic staff at DIT (and I imagine at all other state colleges) which means the sports side of things will slowly be eroded as all the coaches, physios, etc. will not be offered new contracts.

[BohDiddley]

There are several DIT teams of varying success in the intervarsity system and several players from these teams play/played for LoI teams. The teams share facilities with DIT GAA and maybe with DIT Rugby (not sure about that one, though). The main pitches are at Grangegorman but I don't know if DIT own them.

ATM, there is a moratorium on the renewal of contracts for all non-academic staff at DIT (and I imagine at all other state colleges) which means the sports side of things will slowly be eroded as all the coaches, physios, etc. will not be offered new contracts.
Still, longer-term, if UCD can do it (and it seems we are to believe that it costs nothing) surely DIT can? It would be quite something if the infrastructure were dismantled to the extent that there would be no coaches, physios or admin staff and they would have to close their facilities.

Embedding a club there would still be a good way to absorb a lot of overheads: the outlook would be a lot less fraught than someone setting up another Wexford Youths or trying to keep Limerick on the go.

Wonder what the league/FAI would say if it were to emerge as a proposal? Would UCD v DIT make for a good derby?

[pineapple stu]

Still, longer-term, if UCD can do it (and it seems we are to believe that it costs nothing)
:rolleyes:

Did you read posts 8 and 9 in this thread? Or do you just believe what suits your viewpoint?

[OneRedArmy]

:rolleyes:

Did you read posts 8 and 9 in this thread? Or do you just believe what suits your viewpoint?
There's nothing wrong with expressing skepticism at an unattributed post which can't be backed up by publicly available info.

I'm not saying that I don't believe you, but just cause you say its true doesn't mean we all have to fall in line. He's within his rights not to believe you!

If you come back with a copy of the football clubs budget and expenses then obviously its a different story.

[pineapple stu]

He's absolutely within his rights to be sceptical, but that's different to being within his rights to go around presenting his views as fact ("it seems we are to believe" - just nonsense). Particularly when he said even a rough summary of the budget/expenses would suffice, which he was then given, and to which I then redirected his attention.

The information is there for no-one bar Bohs and Cork, so I'll just assume every club bar those two are sponging off the council and paying no bills, shall I?

[superfrank]

It would be quite something if the infrastructure were dismantled to the extent that there would be no coaches, physios or admin staff and they would have to close their facilities.
They've already closed the gym and swimming pool at the Kevin Street campus because the staff's contracts expired and the Gov will not let DIT renew non-academic contracts. This was open to the public so it wasn't relying entirely on DIT's funding.

Also, I'm sure there's dozens of people who would bitch about another Dublin team.

[Schumi]

Still, longer-term, if UCD can do it (and it seems we are to believe that it costs nothing) surely DIT can?

If they could manage the sponsorship and fundraising to pay for the team, there's no reason to believe that a DIT team couldn't compete in the league. UCD was a big football college before we entered the league though so that would presumably have made it easier to attract financial support from people who were involved previously. This may not be the case with DIT.

Whether they'd attract scholarship players of a sufficient quality is debatable too.

[marinobohs]

Happy to go along with that MB. I'm all for not glorying in the negatives surrounding other clubs.
I'm not especially exercised by UCD's finances. They are only relevant in the context of the always-on sanctimony coming from that quarter with respect to the sins and follies of others, while their own affairs remain an unaccounted mystery.

Not a lot else to gloat about out Belfield way ;) given the huge amount of real issues out there in LOI land I just don't see the need to manufacture bad news (there are enough people doing that). If UCD are in some way benifiting from links with the collage good luck to them, any advantage anyone in Irish football gets then I am all for it !

[pineapple stu]

If UCD are in some way benifiting from links with the collage good luck to them, any advantage anyone in Irish football gets then I am all for it !
Nail on head.

We just need to be realistic about how much help we get from the college, as I noted earlier in the thread.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Whether they'd attract scholarship players of a sufficient quality is debatable too.
I'm sure they would, possibly better than what we would get.

[pineapple stu]

Why do you reckon that?

(Genuinely curious)

[BohDiddley]

There's nothing wrong with expressing skepticism at an unattributed post which can't be backed up by publicly available info.

I'm not saying that I don't believe you, but just cause you say its true doesn't mean we all have to fall in line. He's within his rights not to believe you!

If you come back with a copy of the football clubs budget and expenses then obviously its a different story.

It's not simply a question of believing or not believing. Of course I don't doubt that UCD have some expenditures. It's a question of emphasis and interpretation.

UCD fans apparently want us to see their club as paying its own way. This applies especially in PS's case, given as he is to lecturing others on the topic. So their financial standing is going to be articulated not as budget lines and figures, but as assumption-laden rhetoric and counter-demands for proof of subventions. The rest of us are free largely to disregard such bluster, and attendant non-figures, according to a best guess as to how large organizations, and smaller parts within them, benefit from shared overheads and general economies of scale. As I say, no magic, and no conspiracy.

I know I'm not going to get the figures, so there's no point in pressing it. But I do reserve the right not to accept without comment PS's tiresome pontificating on matters of finance and sustainability, which is what marks this club out from, say, others with council tie-ins (though I have also posted similar sentiments re Fingal, based on their geographical overlap with existing LoI clubs.)

Anyway, I think the DIT hypothesis is a worthwhile way of looking at it. I'd hate it if we turned LoI into an inter-varsity (or inter-local authority) league, but if we're all happy with the fanbase-free UCD model then it might be a goer for other colleges of similar scale.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Why do you reckon that?

(Genuinely curious)
Knew I should have explained first time as I would surely be asked the question. ;)

I'm trying to avoid making stereotypes here :) but if you look at the more popular course choices for people going to college at the moment the CAO points that they would be would be higher in UCD than DIT...obviously you can have cases where people are multi talented in sport and academics but in a lot of circumstances people talented at sport would still be concentrating a lot on that in Leaving Cert year so their studies might get sacrificed. Last year we only had around 5/6 scholarships and while that would be a standard amount it is hardly huge and some of the players that missed out as a result of not securing a good enough Leaving Cert to attend UCD but would be enough to do the course they want in DIT. Some of these players are going to be better than what we signed.

[LeixlipRed]

Why do you reckon that?

(Genuinely curious)

Easier entry requirements in DIT? I know UCD has that Diploma (sports management??) but the entry requirements are still toughish. For example you need a OB in Ordinary level maths.

[pineapple stu]

So we'll be at a disadvantage because we pick smarter players? I like. :)

A fair point, I suppose. I think the UCD scholarship scheme has such a headstart over anything else at the moment that it'd be players' number one choices, but yeah, if they don't get their number one choice, we suffer.

I think there may be dispensation to the points requirements for players who come back from England with no Leaving Cert, which would even it up a bit. I've no real idea how that works though. And it hasn't happened too often lately (Ronan Finn was probably the last one, and I don't know if he has a Leaving or not)

[paudie]

Probably not, given how people like to make up stuff about the club anyway.

In any event, as I'm sure you're aware, there's no point going to the added expense of filing audited accounts (including P&L) just to satisfy conspiracy theorists like yourself.

And FWIW, only a handful of clubs (Bohs and Cork that I'm aware) publish audited P&L accounts. Only about 12 clubs file accounts with the CRO, but the rest contain only the balance sheet, which gives no information on expenses. So by your logic, any financial discussion on any club bar Bohs and Cork should be banned.

No extra expense in filing audited accounts. Filing fee is the same. Auditors fees would be higher though.
it seems to be a condition of licencing that clubs run by companies have to have audited accounts, even though most would qualify for audit exemption under CRO rules.

Bohs are run by a company limited by guarantee rather than a company limited by shares so they have to file the P&L as well as Balance sheet

[pineapple stu]

Our filing fee is zero as we're a college club. ;)

And obviously your point on the auditors' fees is more what I was referring to; probably phrased it badly.

[paudie]

Our filing fee is zero as we're a college club. ;)

And obviously your point on the auditors' fees is more what I was referring to; probably phrased it badly.

I presume UCD must submit accounts for some entity(eg club ) when making yor licence application.
This must be at least signed off by an accountant if not audited

[John83]

I presume UCD must submit accounts for some entity(eg club ) when making yor licence application.
This must be at least signed off by an accountant if not audited


...obviously your point on the auditors' fees is more what I was referring to...


...Auditors fees would be higher though...

For those of you who are confused, the above are quoted in reverse chronological order. And no, it doesn't make any more sense the right way around.

[paudie]

For those of you who are confused, the above are quoted in reverse chronological order. And no, it doesn't make any more sense the right way around.

My question is do UCD submit accounts with their application and I presume those accounts have some form of accountants report/audited report attached.

While your contribution is welcome it doesn't shed any light on that point

[John83]

My question is do UCD submit accounts with their application and I presume those accounts have some form of accountants report/audited report attached.

While your contribution is welcome it doesn't shed any light on that point
Licensing requires audited accounts. Ergo, UCD submit audited accounts to the licensing committee.

What we're not is a company, so filing accounts with the CRO would cost us money we don't need to spend.

Clear enough?

[paudie]

Licensing requires audited accounts. Ergo, UCD submit audited accounts to the licensing committee.

What we're not is a company, so filing accounts with the CRO would cost us money we don't need to spend.

Clear enough?
Crystal.

Don't know why you didn't answer my reasonable question with your first post though;)

[pineapple stu]

Licensing requires audited accounts. Ergo, UCD submit audited accounts to the licensing committee.

What we're not is a company, so filing accounts with the CRO would cost us money we don't need to spend.
It's usually cheaper for an accountant to prepare accounts like ours over accounts that will be going into the CRO too. But I don't know exactly what licencing requires in that regard.

We do pay an accountant to do our monthly accounts for licencing, by the way, just in case any think we get accounting undergrads to do it for us for free.

[thischarmingman]

We do pay an accountant to do our monthly accounts for licencing, by the way, just in case any think we get accounting undergrads to do it for us for free.

Apparently we do. :p

[Schumi]

We do pay an accountant to do our monthly accounts for licencing, by the way, just in case any think we get accounting undergrads to do it for us for free.

Not that the FAI would notice.

[pineapple stu]

Was actually thinking that. I know it's a relatively decent cost to get monthly accounts prepared and sent in* but you'd have to wonder what's the point if the FAI can't spot a Derry or Cork coming (or do anything about it if they do spot it) even while looking at their monthly accounts.

* I know we got fined once because we were late, but told the FAI where to go because they were told in advance that our accountant was on holidays, so we were going to be a couple of days late; in fact, I think we've wangled our way out of pretty much every silly FAI fine we've gotten :)

[Longfordian]

In fairness to the FAI they set up a template for the monthly accounts and you just have to follow those. Doesn't necessarily take an accountant to do it, somebody with a bit of basic book-keeping knowledge could do it. Though I believe we now have an accountant doing it he's doing it for a nominal fee or for free by all accounts (no bad pun intended).

[dynamo kerry]

In fairness to the FAI they set up a template for the monthly accounts and you just have to follow those. Doesn't necessarily take an accountant to do it, somebody with a bit of basic book-keeping knowledge could do it. Though I believe we now have an accountant doing it he's doing it for a nominal fee or for free by all accounts (no bad pun intended).


there's penny pinching then there's just sillyness though.. is getting Jim from the bar to do the accounts something of a false economy.

Accountants are by nature conservative types - surely Irish footie clubs have financial directors or executive directors who are accountants?

[pineapple stu]

They may need to be externally done (and again, I don't know the exact requirements).

Two of our directors run businesses, so I assume they could get the books done up themselves, but I have heard them moaning about the extra expense it's brought. That's all I'm basing my comments on.

[Longfordian]

there's penny pinching then there's just sillyness though.. is getting Jim from the bar to do the accounts something of a false economy.

Accountants are by nature conservative types - surely Irish footie clubs have financial directors or executive directors who are accountants?

OK, I'll rephrase that. I saw the set up for the monthly accounts last year and it's fairly basic, it's just columns of information with running totals. Obviously there needs to be preparatory work done to come up with the information, but this can usually be done by somebody within the club. For example the person doing ours at the time wasn't a fully qualified accountant but was well able to do them. They're not as detailed as the full end of year accounts in my view though I don't work in the accounting sphere.
Stu posted after I started my post but again as of last year there was no requirement for them to be externally done.

[Poor Student]

Was actually thinking that. I know it's a relatively decent cost to get monthly accounts prepared and sent in* but you'd have to wonder what's the point if the FAI can't spot a Derry or Cork coming (or do anything about it if they do spot it) even while looking at their monthly accounts.

* I know we got fined once because we were late, but told the FAI where to go because they were told in advance that our accountant was on holidays, so we were going to be a couple of days late; in fact, I think we've wangled our way out of pretty much every silly FAI fine we've gotten :)

In the absence of your proof of this I will retain my right to be of the opinion that the club uses the homeless man from the UCD restaurant to do our accounts and reserve the right to perpetuate this in the absence of cold proof of anything one way or another.

[SkStu]

UCD finances all sounds a bit like a big secret society to me... :D

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g309/Fionn-Whelan/Simpsons/Stonecutters.jpg

[peadar1987]

UCD finances all sounds a bit like a big secret society to me... :D


Look at Pineapple Moe down there in the corner!

[pineapple stu]

Looks like the Montrose come 3am next Saturday. :)