Middle East/Asia travel advice

[thischarmingman]

Me and my girlfriend are going to go away travelling in Jan/Feb of next year for about 6 months and are planning our route at the moment, with a view to booking flights in the next 2 weeks or so.

The route so far is kind of in two parts. In the first part, we're thinking of starting off in Egypt at Cairo and travelling up through Jordan, Syria and Turkey to Iran. From Iran we'd then go north through Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and to Almaty in Kazakhstan, flying from there to Beijing.

The second part would then be to work our way down through China to get to Vietnam and then from there through Laos, Thailand and Cambodia, finishing in either the Philippines, or Indonesia.

Is there anyone who's been to any of these places or done a similar route that would be able to offer any advice or see any obvious flaws in the plan or anything? For example, as far as I'm aware, having an Israeli stamp on your passport bars you from a number of other countries in the area, so that's why we're avoiding it, even though I'd love to go there.

As far as visas go, we're going to make a list of every country and their requirement and then list them in order of how soon we need to be making tracks to get them sorted, same with any health issues.

Any advice/help/anecdotes/warnings/book recommendations much appreciated :)

[pineapple stu]

*******!!!

I subscribe to a travel magazine called Wanderlust which a few issues back had a big section on travelling in the Stans. It also had an issue on China. I think you can buy back-issues on their website - www.Wanderlust.co.uk. Sounds ideal for what you're planning - has one to four week suggested itineraries, visa info, highlights and other stuff.

[thischarmingman]

*******!!!

I subscribe to a travel magazine called Wanderlust which a few issues back had a big section on travelling in the Stans. It also had an issue on China. I think you can buy back-issues on their website - www.Wanderlust.co.uk. Sounds ideal for what you're planning - has one to four week suggested itineraries, visa info, highlights and other stuff.

Cool, you wouldn't happen to know the issue numbers? It's difficult to tell from their website.

EDIT:

Actually, I've found the pdf here (from Nov 2007): http://www.wanderlust.co.uk/trip-planners.php?page_num=3
It's subscriber-only content however but I might order the actual issue if it's possible.

[HarpoJoyce]

...... For example, as far as I'm aware, having an Israeli stamp on your passport bars you from a number of other countries in the area, so that's why we're avoiding it, even though I'd love to go there.

As far as visas go, we're going to make a list of every country and their requirement and then list them in order of how soon we need to be making tracks to get them sorted, same with any health issues.

Any advice/help/anecdotes/warnings/book recommendations much appreciated :)

Good luck with the trip.
Having a stamp from some of her neighbours restricts your entitlements in Israel/Palestine.

Lonely Planet used to advise to get visa at the last destination first and work backwards as it shows that you have permission to travel to the next country (at least permission to present at the border post). Just be aware of the validity of the visa.

Bradt publications like to think of themselves as cutting-edge on destinations (bringing out an Iraq book in 2004..I can think of other words to describe them).

There's a map centre on Aungier street in Dublin 2. That may be helpful for planning. Or maybe this crowd.
http://www.mapsworldwide.com/

[endabob1]

The SE Asian portion of the trip should be pretty easy to source info on, the Thai, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam route is a well worn backpacking trail.
For what it’s worth my Mrs & I did Vietnam 3 years ago, mainly stayed in the south around Saigon & the Mekong delta before travelling up the coast eventually as far as Nha Trang. We really enjoyed it and would heartily recommend it, good food (not brave enough to try the dog though), good people and lots to see and do.
Thailand I’ve been to a couple of times and it is high up on my favourite place list, that said it’s a few years since we were there (pre-tsunami) so any advice I would have would probably be outdated, except this, stay well clear of Pattaya, it is according to my Thai residing mate, “an absolute sewer”.
Not sure if you’re travelling through HKK but I’m guessing based on your route, it’s highly likely. It’s a great city, a real interesting blend of East & West.

[HarpoJoyce]

good luck with it,

the lonelyplanet Thorn Tree Message Board has a more specific destination advice for you. And of course ask the individual Embassies for the Visa applications you may need for the trip.

take care,
harpo.

[bennocelt]

If u head to China then you have to go to the province of Shanxi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanxi#Tourism

Not many tourists go here but you can see the town of Pingyao which is a world heritage site and is one of the very few old style Chinese towns still standing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingyao

The province also has the 4th biggest Buddhist statues in Datong, which are quite amazing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yungang_Grottoes

and Mount Hang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Heng_(Shanxi)

The capital city is Taiyuan whihc is not really that interesting but the people have real character and are kind

Also the province is very polluted and Taiyuan was once 3rd most polluted city in the world!!! But hell it always beats Beijing IMHO

[MariborKev]

Get the Israeli authorities to stamp a bit of paper and staple it inside the passport- worked for me.

Will post more advice later, too wrecked now.

[thischarmingman]

Bradt publications like to think of themselves as cutting-edge on destinations (bringing out an Iraq book in 2004..I can think of other words to describe them).

There's a map centre on Aungier street in Dublin 2. That may be helpful for planning. Or maybe this crowd.
http://www.mapsworldwide.com/

Cool thanks I may check them out to get a decent map to travel with.


If u head to China then you have to go to the province of Shanxi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanxi#Tourism

Not many tourists go here but you can see the town of Pingyao which is a world heritage site and is one of the very few old style Chinese towns still standing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingyao

The province also has the 4th biggest Buddhist statues in Datong, which are quite amazing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yungang_Grottoes

and Mount Hang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Heng_(Shanxi)

The capital city is Taiyuan whihc is not really that interesting but the people have real character and are kind

Also the province is very polluted and Taiyuan was once 3rd most polluted city in the world!!! But hell it always beats Beijing IMHO

Thanks, I'll look into including some of those places - we're working a rough itinerary out over the weekend.


Get the Israeli authorities to stamp a bit of paper and staple it inside the passport- worked for me.

I'm happy to take a few risks with stuff like that and try to wing it, but not on the very first border crossing of the trip. The Israeli border control will in most cases have no problem with stamping a bit of paper; the problem is that my passport will have an exit stamp from Egypt, and then an entrance stamp at Syria that will leave no doubt as to where I've been. Which is why I can't just use a British passport for one, and an Irish for another. I'd also like to not rule myself out of a host of countries within a couple of weeks of setting off so at the moment the plan is to fly to Egypt and then fly out 2 weeks later or so from Cairo to Amman.

[thischarmingman]

good luck with it,

the lonelyplanet Thorn Tree Message Board has a more specific destination advice for you. And of course ask the individual Embassies for the Visa applications you may need for the trip.

take care,
harpo.

That site's an excellent help :)

[bennocelt]

Taiyuan is only an overnight from Beijing, and the best thing about going there is that you then can head south to see the terracoota warriers in Xian which is an overnight and a bit - travelling on Chinese trains is also an experience worth having, esp amongst the ordinary people in the hard seats

[Closed Account 2]

Turkmenistan is an amazing country but visas are pretty hard to get. They have become strict on issuing them and you need an iternary and hotel bookings for all your nights you spend and also proof of exit (e.g. flight or rail ticket out). I would have an other plan in place just in case you dont get the visa. You may be able to get a transit visa for Turkmenistan which should be cheaper and is more likely to be issued.

Syria you should be able to get a visa on the border as there is no Syrian embassy in Ireland (they have a policy of issuing border visas fairly quickly for citizens who cannot apply in their home countries). I think for China you need one nights accom, and proof of exit tickets - but that was when I went back in Sept 2008, things may well have changed. Kazakh visas should be simple enough. Also Iran (pre election) would issue a 2 week visa to Irish nationals at Imam Khomeni Airport (Tehran) and this could be extended at a local police station for another 2 weeks. I'm not sure what the status is now.

[thischarmingman]

Turkmenistan is an amazing country but visas are pretty hard to get. They have become strict on issuing them and you need an iternary and hotel bookings for all your nights you spend and also proof of exit (e.g. flight or rail ticket out). I would have an other plan in place just in case you dont get the visa. You may be able to get a transit visa for Turkmenistan which should be cheaper and is more likely to be issued.

Syria you should be able to get a visa on the border as there is no Syrian embassy in Ireland (they have a policy of issuing border visas fairly quickly for citizens who cannot apply in their home countries). I think for China you need one nights accom, and proof of exit tickets - but that was when I went back in Sept 2008, things may well have changed. Kazakh visas should be simple enough. Also Iran (pre election) would issue a 2 week visa to Irish nationals at Imam Khomeni Airport (Tehran) and this could be extended at a local police station for another 2 weeks. I'm not sure what the status is now.

Thanks for all the info. Iran seems to be the only one with a bit of hassle, on the first stage of the trip at least. Egypt is done at the airport, Jordan is technically free to enter on the ferry as we're doing, Syria, as you say, should issue a visa at the border and Turkey as an EU member is easy. As far as I can see we'll have to get letters of invitation for Iran.

The only way of doing Turkmenistan as a tourist is with a guide which is far too costly, so we'll apply for transport visas in Iran. Uzbekistan also involves a letter of invitation, while Kazakhstan shouldn't present too much difficulty.
That's as far as I've got on the Visa planning at the moment, haven't really examined the rest too much, except for North Korea which I'd like to do.


Taiyuan is only an overnight from Beijing, and the best thing about going there is that you then can head south to see the terracoota warriers in Xian which is an overnight and a bit - travelling on Chinese trains is also an experience worth having, esp amongst the ordinary people in the hard seats

Yeah, since I made that first post we've decided to go on the train from Almaty to Beijing rather than fly, and to spend more time in the west of China. Hopefully, we'll be able to get some sort of hop-on, hop-off ticket.

[MariborKev]

TCM,

For North Korea the "go to" guy is our James.

Some of his stories about it are mental. And you better like fish.

[bennocelt]

Yeah, since I made that first post we've decided to go on the train from Almaty to Beijing rather than fly, and to spend more time in the west of China. Hopefully, we'll be able to get some sort of hop-on, hop-off ticket.

Just heard in the last few days that they have loads of new Bullet style trains now in operation in parts of China
(from Taiyuan to Beijing now in 3 hours - used to take the good part of the day/night!!!!!)
That is awesome and saves so much time and energy, and they are not expensive as well
Enjoy your trip

[Jeebus]

Out of a matter of interest TCM, how much do you reckon this trip will cost?

In the last few months i've been seriously thinking of doing a bit of travelling maybe at end of next year, so just wondering what type of cash i'd need to be setting aside.

[thischarmingman]

Out of a matter of interest TCM, how much do you reckon this trip will cost?

In the last few months i've been seriously thinking of doing a bit of travelling maybe at end of next year, so just wondering what type of cash i'd need to be setting aside.

Depends how much you want to do/how much comfort you need.

We'll probably save some money from travelling as a couple, and we're also going to go couch-surfing for parts of it- maybe 3/4 days/week if it's possible. Anywhere else we stay will be in/on hostels/budget hotels and roofs, with the exception of camping a few nights in Asia.

With that in mind, we're budgeting around €1000/month each. That doesn't include the pre-travelling stuff- flights, visas, insurance, vaccinations, equipment, guide books, new passport (not going to the Middle East on a British passport :p) etc, all of which I'd estimate to be another €1000 spent before going, on top of the €1000/month that I'd want to have the day we fly off.

I did Poland, Ukraine and Russia a couple of years ago and found everything, in Ukraine and Poland especially, a lot cheaper than I'd thought (19c/beer in L'viv!). Then again, when you're coming from Dublin just about everywhere in the world is less expensive.

While I'm not averse to major tourist resorts, I would generally (you can probably tell by the route I'm going) prefer to avoid spending 6 or 7 months travelling well-worn routes and even in major cities I prefer to seek out more local, and cheaper places so that helps financially too.

I'm also thinking of getting a second credit card with an overdraft that I don't intend to use whatsoever and intend to cancel the minute I get home, or taking out a loan to keep in a second account and not touch at all, just as a kind of insurance policy in case things go wrong.

[thischarmingman]

TCM,

For North Korea the "go to" guy is our James.

Some of his stories about it are mental. And you better like fish.

I haven't eaten fish for about 8 years...:eek:

[bennocelt]

Just a few essential tips for you (if you are going to China):

Bring some toilet paper!!!! Many Chinese toilets leave an awful lot to be desired, even in highly rated hotels. And many dont include toilet paper. If you are stuck in a big city and need to go then head to Mcdonalds or KFc as they regularly clean their toilets! This really will shock you!!!:o

Dont worry about lack of manners! The Chinese can appear to be very rude (opposite to the Japanese). The men constantly spit (pollution?), and people never queue for anything (use your elbows). At the restaurant you will also see all manner of things happening - But at heart the Chinese are kind and a very welcoming people - but you have to remember that under Mao good manners were seen as something the elite did and he tried to stamp out politeness in society - seeing it as bourgeois

Chinese restaurants Excellent, its where its all happening. Irish people go to pubs to get merry and have a good time, the Chinese do the same in restaurants (in fact the bars are often empty!). They sing karaoke in them, they play drinking games, they chat, they go with friends, they have a good time. Also they eat some food!! And its true what they say - they do eat anything and everything.
If you are in a a biggish city then you have to get to "Little Fat Sheep", a famous hot pot restaurant (even have one in Toronto and London). Hot pot is an experience

Everything is cheap! Dvds, Cds, computer games all costing pence, and good quality clothes for next to nothing. You can also get real designer stuff very cheaply too as most of it is made in china anyway and they tend to flood the local markets with anything they over produced (got to love the Chinese)

Anyway if I think of anything else I will post it _ I was in China on and off for over 4 years and I loved the place, no two days were evre the same, and the Chinese people are mad as hatters, but kind at heart, and they treat foreigners very well.:)

If you are coming from Mongolia - the Gobi desert is good, but it might not be the back packer experience as there is pretty much nothing to do in Mongolia only look at the desert and plains
Almaty would be better. Interesting to see if you go through Xinjiang (the old silk route - misspelled), where the recent rioting was.

[thischarmingman]

Thanks for the advice, especially that last one by Bennocelt which I missed :o); for those of you who have been in China, did you travel by train? Is it easy enough to get a hop-on, hop off ticket travelling west to east? And do many people (especially in W. China) speak English? One other thing, do any of your know is it possible to pick up a Chinese visa in Dublin in January or February for use in June?

We originally were going to go through Iran and Turkmenistan to Uzbekistan but given the recent problems in Iran we're going to fly Istanbul-Tashkent (via Riga!!). We're still going to get the visa for Iran (they have an embassy in Blackrock!) but we'll make up our minds about whether to actually enter the country on the day.

[bennocelt]

Trains? No, cant pre-book in China due to size of population. If you do go to a train station there is usually an area for foreigners to buy tickets - but its usually at the back of the station in an out of the way place. Even in Beijing the foreign ticket office is hard to find!! So you can search for one, or queue for tickets at main window with about a million other people! Or you can walk around outside and buy a ticket on the black market which wont be that more expensive and easier if you are in a rush. (they will come to you:))
Buy a sleeper ticket, you will get one, and even if you see that they are all sold out you can still get one from someone willing to sell. Also any travel agents near by a station always have a few tickets to sell.
Train stations are very daunting places for the newcomers - but stay calm as you will get a ticket but just be patient and flash the cash!:)

English! Chinese havent really mastered it at all, and you will see funny signs everyday ("ass taxi", "donkey bus"). Try and get a travel guide with a few useful phrases.

Visa Not sure about this, but I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to get one at the border - the Chinese are very accommodating (at the right price:))

[weecountyman]

TCM, you need a full week in Uzbekistan to begin enjoying the country. Tashkent is nice, if a little grimy and testy, Samarkand is amazing, if grimy and testy, and whatever you do only eat in hotel restaurants (trust me, I've an iron constitution and eat "street food" everywhere, but Uzbekistan has its problems). The people are genuinely decent and helpful if a little nervous of foreigners. There is a very large and ever present secret police force, one will be assigned to you (as a shadow) and you'll probably speak with them once or twice, but this is for your own good as well as the Presidents!

Syrian stamps are available at the border, but it's sometimes a hassle and many people to deal with. One good tip, go up to the first person who looks relatively important (ie wearing sunglasses with lots of stars on their shoulders) and hand them a crisp ten dollar note. You'll be through in 20minutes, otherwise you could be stuck for more than an hour and overcharged.

[thischarmingman]

TCM, you need a full week in Uzbekistan to begin enjoying the country. Tashkent is nice, if a little grimy and testy, Samarkand is amazing, if grimy and testy, and whatever you do only eat in hotel restaurants (trust me, I've an iron constitution and eat "street food" everywhere, but Uzbekistan has its problems). The people are genuinely decent and helpful if a little nervous of foreigners. There is a very large and ever present secret police force, one will be assigned to you (as a shadow) and you'll probably speak with them once or twice, but this is for your own good as well as the Presidents!

Syrian stamps are available at the border, but it's sometimes a hassle and many people to deal with. One good tip, go up to the first person who looks relatively important (ie wearing sunglasses with lots of stars on their shoulders) and hand them a crisp ten dollar note. You'll be through in 20minutes, otherwise you could be stuck for more than an hour and overcharged.

Many thanks for the advice, I intend to stay in Uzbekistan for about two and a half weeks. I've been reading a few of the "Great GAme" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Game-Secret-Service-High/dp/0719564476/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262446212&sr=8-1) books recently and can't wait to visit Bokhaea, Samarkand, Khiva and Tashkent. When did you go and when did you notice the police? Are they obvious/anything to worry about?

[weecountyman]

TCM, Bukhara is an interesting spot and while I'm lauding Samarkand (seat of Tamerlan/Timurlan the Great), there are a number of great spots to visit (Termez etc) and while places like Fergana and Adijan are nice, they can be a little unsettled. If you can spend a night at the Navoi opera in the capital, it costs very little and if they put on an Uzbek show you'll love it.

I was there for the 3rd time last year and while I have a number of friends from there, I enjoyed wandering off the beaten path. I took "The Alexander Road" and traced the mans steps around the country (where he was married etc) and I believe there is now a tour company near the Central Bank who offer this tour in a much better way. The tomb of Timur is also amazing, and if you've watched the movie Daywatch you'll appreciate it even more.

As for the police, I was in a market in Samarkand and I noticed a man who had followed me from the car park. He was just dressed normally and when I doubled back on myself I saw he was still following me. I simply stopped and asked him what he wanted (this was in 2005 and I was scared that I was going to get robbed) and he legged it. At the hotel that day I saw him sitting in a car and I went to the concierge and told him, he told me it's the secret police. My friends then told me it's normal and last year I noticed I'd a man following me in Fergana Province for 2 days, but it's okay in a sense as it makes it safer for you.

The food in Uzbekistan is very good, pilau (pronounced ploff (plov)) is tasty and filling. Try kumis (fermented horse milk) if you're in a nice restaurant and you'll be able to drink as much as you want without getting a hangover!

[thischarmingman]

you'll be able to drink as much as you want without getting a hangover!

I was wondering when you'd get to the important stuff! That's all good to know. I think Uzbekistan is the country I'm most excited about anyway so it's good to get some advice on it :)

[weecountyman]

I was wondering when you'd get to the important stuff! That's all good to know. I think Uzbekistan is the country I'm most excited about anyway so it's good to get some advice on it :)

I'm glad to be of service :D Horses milk is quite delicious, as is tan (I think that's fermented cow's milk). There is an Uzbek beer, Sarbast, that's brewed I think by Carlsberg or Efes, it's passable, but just check the label for producer as 3 biggies (Carlsberg, Efes and Baltic) produce most of the beers. A couple of small local brews are well worth it, while vodka there is pretty poor quality - as in parts of Russia you generally don't buy vodka produced from a city/region with a chemical plant in it!

There are good wines in Uzbekistan, said to be a legacy of the Greeks, and in a couple of spots, I cannot for the life of me remember the exact name, people look rather Greek, and speak an old greek dialect.