View Full Version : Dempsey in 'nanny state' showdown on drink-driving limits
TRANSPORT Minister Noel Dempsey is facing a major showdown with Fianna Fail backbenchers who are openly accusing him of pursuing "nanny state" policies.
A motion signed by 21 backbench Fianna Fail TDs, which called for drink-driving limits to be left unchanged, has been temporarily withdrawn after Mr Dempsey acceded to requests for a debate at tomorrow night's Fianna Fail parliamentary party meeting.
The minister's plans to lower the blood alcohol limit from 80mg to 50mg -- effectively putting motorists over the legal limit after one drink -- and to reduce the level to 20mg for learner and professional drivers faces stiff opposition from angry backbenchers who have branded the change a "sledgehammer approach", a "scud missile" and a "step too far".
However, the Road Safety Authority (RSA) said it is "scientific fact" that a reduction in the limit would save lives.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dempsey-in-nanny-state-showdown-on-drinkdriving-limits-1917582.html
If they were really serious about saving lives they'd enforce the existing laws. The amount of learner drivers driving around on their own. The amount of speeding in built up areas. :mad:
dahamsta
19/10/2009, 9:42 AM
I doubt the RSA would know a "scientific fact" if one came up and bit them on the arse.
And niether the Government or the RSA are arsed about actually doing something on road safety, once they can be seen to be doing something on road safety.
More on this: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1020/breaking27.htm
Totally agree with the reduction, stunned that people are opposed to it.
OneRedArmy
20/10/2009, 1:38 PM
The proposed "middle ground" of reducing the limit to 50, but only a penalty point sanction for 50-100 is a VFI/FF abomination that will likely increase drink driving rather than reduce it. Its an absolute disgrace.
I'm also sick of hearing the same old "social fabric"/"lonely bachelor" argument in favour of drink driving.
If its a social concern and the pub is only a social meeting place, why do people NEED to drink alcohol, why can't they take the car and have a soft drink? Even better, why can't groups of people take turns to have a soft drink and be a designated driver?
The cold, hard truth is that this reflects more on our dependence on alcohol rather than anything specifically to do with drink driving.
Lionel Ritchie
20/10/2009, 1:52 PM
I'm also sick of hearing the same old "social fabric"/"lonely bachelor" argument in favour of drink driving.
If its a social concern and the pub is only a social meeting place, why do people NEED to drink alcohol, why can't they take the car and have a soft drink? Even better, why can't groups of people take turns to have a soft drink and be a designated driver?
AND/OR ...how about a little initiative from the other side of the bar? From all these pubs in all these provincial towns and villages that are supposedly taking a hammering because of the drink driving laws I have heard of exactly zero ideas on how they, as the service providers, could facilitate the safe, affordable transport of customers home from their premises. Zero.
None of them seem to have come together and said lets hammer out a deal with somone licensed to drive a 15-20 seater to tour our 5-6 pubs from say 11pm to 1.30am picking up folks ready to call it a night.
I can't believe it wouldn't work when I know of no evidence that it's ever even been tried.
dahamsta
20/10/2009, 1:57 PM
Ah it has LR, there's been minibuses ploughing the boreens taking people home for years. I don't know the details (cost, margins, who pays, etc) but plenty of pubs in east Cork do it.
There should be zero tolerence as regards drink. You should not be allowed one drop and drive afterwards. As regards people not indicating is that a thing of the past now??
dahamsta
20/10/2009, 2:51 PM
You can't have a zero policy on drink-driving, as has been explained here a dozen times, too many things contain alcohol to make it technically feasible. There has to be a limit, the question is where that limit is set.
Personally, I think the limit should stay where it is but an additional clause should be added, whereby anyone whose driving is affected by less than one pint is put in jail for a month for being a pussy.
You can't have a zero policy on drink-driving, as has been explained here a dozen times, too many things contain alcohol to make it technically feasible. There has to be a limit, the question is where that limit is set.
Personally, I think the limit should stay where it is but an additional clause should be added, whereby anyone whose driving is affected by less than one pint is put in jail for a month for being a pussy.
You can you just don't eat or drink anything with alcohol in it and if you do you don't drive. Not hard to do. A life before a drink for me.
OneRedArmy
20/10/2009, 3:37 PM
You can you just don't eat or drink anything with alcohol in it and if you do you don't drive. Not hard to do. A life before a drink for me.How long do you wait after you have a drink to drive? 12 hours, a day, a week?
Is your zero to one decimal point, two, three four....
Lots of practical reasons why zero is unfair.
50 is the European standard, and I'd want to know why its right for most other countries but not us?
centre mid
20/10/2009, 3:50 PM
Call me a cinic but whats the deal with - "ah if its your first time we wont ban you, we will just take money off you, recesion and all that guvnor".
However, this morning's reports say the new law will also allow for motorists with a blood-alcohol reading below 100mgs to receive a fine and penalty points rather than a driving ban.
linky (http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/dempsey-to-outline-case-for-new-drinkdrive-limits-430859.html)
John83
20/10/2009, 3:56 PM
How long do you wait after you have a drink to drive? 12 hours, a day, a week?
Is your zero to one decimal point, two, three four....
Lots of practical reasons why zero is unfair.
50 is the European standard, and I'd want to know why its right for most other countries but not us?
Mostly agree with that, though I think 80's a reasonable limit, and reducing it further will have no effect whatsoever. As someone else has said, enforcement is so poor that there's a far more obvious route to achieving some results.
OneRedArmy
20/10/2009, 4:11 PM
Mostly agree with that, though I think 80's a reasonable limit, and reducing it further will have no effect whatsoever. As someone else has said, enforcement is so poor that there's a far more obvious route to achieving some results.I can't link to a report, but there was a medical-type on Newstalk this morning who reckoned there is concrete proof that reducing the level from 80-50 has had a material reduction in the level of drink driving accidents, injuries and deaths in other countries.
I do agree that the limited enforcement currently greatly reduces the impact.
To me however, thats an argument for more enforcement AND reducing the limit, not keeping the limit where it is.
centre mid
20/10/2009, 4:19 PM
I can't link to a report, but there was a medical-type on Newstalk this morning who reckoned there is concrete proof that reducing the level from 80-50 has had a material reduction in the level of drink driving accidents, injuries and deaths in other countries.
I do agree that the limited enforcement currently greatly reduces the impact.
To me however, thats an argument for more enforcement AND reducing the limit, not keeping the limit where it is.
They usually reference North Queensland when talking about zero tolerance but afaik they have a much higher rate of random breathalizing and enforcement than we seem unable to manage. When done in tandem then it would make a huge difference, however it needs a change of attitude from the general public as well.
dahamsta
20/10/2009, 4:41 PM
OT posts deleted.
OneRedArmy
20/10/2009, 5:13 PM
The worst thing about the enforcement is that in the six months after the establishment of the separate Gardai Traffic Corps and introduction of random breath testing there was a definite blitz of enforcement.
I went through 3 or 4 checkpoints in just over a month and remember taxi drivers bitching and moaning (plus ca change) that they had been stopped 4 or 5 times in one evening at checkpoints and breathalysed.
I'm not sure whether its solely down to the clampdown on Gardai numbers and overtime but the visibility of the Traffic Corps has dropped hugely in the last year.
Virtually all the FF back benchers are against the reduction: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1020/breaking27.htm
kingdom hoop
20/10/2009, 11:48 PM
Totally agree with the reduction, stunned that people are opposed to it.
Selfishly, I'm opposed to it. I often enjoy a pint or two after different occasions before then driving home, possibly a few hours after consumption. I'm a careful driver usually, and that doesn't change. My response-times, awareness and judgment might be technically poorer if tested. But any deterioration can only be negligible and I don't consider my behaviour irresponsible. So I'm opposed to it on the selfish, narrow basis that it would impinge on me without achieving its aim.
I would also 'oppose' it in the sense that others have touched on: it's impotent without greater enforcement. Also other things could be more effective at making roads safer - eg, speed cameras at blackspots, lower speed-limits at blackspots, more stringent driving tests, higher sanctions for speeding, etc.
It would be a pity if the regulation was over-inclusive and criminalised safe driving. I accept a system can't work on a nebulous "who is or isn't safe" - so there has to be a limit. For me though, the balance would swing too far if the level is reduced.
Reducing the limit without increasing enforcement is window dressing. You are just criminalising people who stick to the current limit, when most of those actually caught for drink driving are multiples of the current limit.
I expect we'll keep see new laws, with no increase in enforcement over the next few years, as it costs nothing. It does nothing either, but who cares about that?
OneRedArmy
21/10/2009, 8:36 AM
Virtually all the FF back benchers are against the reduction: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1020/breaking27.htmLiam Doran of the INO made an interesting point on the radio this morning by comparing the interest and debate this has generated in the FF ranks, when compared with NAMA or cutting costs in the public sector.
I'm generally not of the same mind as the unions :D but he's right on the money.
FF knuckle-draggers strike again...
Did anyone really expect FF backbenchers to let this through easily. Vintners' nearly as powerful as developers in certain circles
I think the IT editorial on this sums up the situation nicely:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1021/1224257148169.html
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/politics/ahern-says-
Wednesday October 21 2009
Justice Minister Dermot Ahern has said the Republic should have the same drink-driving limit as Northern Ireland, which currently stands at 80mgs.
Transport Minister Noel Dempsey wants to reduce the limit to 50mgs in the Republic, but several Fianna Fail backbenchers came out against the plan during a parliamentary party meeting last night.
They claim it would damage rural pubs and communities, but Mr Dempsey says the measure would save lives on the roads.
The cabinet has approved the reduction and the minister says he wants to publish legislation on the matter before Christmas.
However, Mr Ahern said this morning that the law in the Republic should not be changed unless it is also changed in the North.
"We should work with our Northern counterparts to ensure that whatever we do or they do will be the same," he said.
Future leader playing to back bench's:rolleyes:
Jeeeeeez what a plonker. Should all laws be the same on both sides of the border? What the hell is his point?
Fair play to Dempsey on this one, hope he sticks to his guns.
John83
21/10/2009, 2:57 PM
Jeeeeeez what a plonker. Should all laws be the same on both sides of the border? What the hell is his point?
Fair play to Dempsey on this one, hope he sticks to his guns.
The resistance to this has been pretty daft as a whole, and the politicians have been particularly headless.
That said, it'd be a bit silly that a man living near the border might leave his local pub, drive two miles perfectly legally, and then suddenly be unable to drive. Not much of a consideration to base law-making on though - the laws change at the border, tough luck. Hey, maybe we could charge import tax on the alcohol in his bloodstream. ;)
OneRedArmy
21/10/2009, 4:05 PM
The resistance to this has been pretty daft as a whole, and the politicians have been particularly headless.
That said, it'd be a bit silly that a man living near the border might leave his local pub, drive two miles perfectly legally, and then suddenly be unable to drive. Not much of a consideration to base law-making on though - the laws change at the border, tough luck. Hey, maybe we could charge import tax on the alcohol in his bloodstream. ;)Its no different to having a different speed limit when you cross the border.
Absolutely moronic argument from Ahern.
Wouldn't expect any better from the guy who spent time dreaming up a blasphemy law that he says he intended never to be enforced.
Jesus wept.
John83
21/10/2009, 4:07 PM
Its no different to having a different speed limit when you cross the border.
Not much, but it is a little. The speed limit changes regularly as you drive along anyway.
Schumi
21/10/2009, 4:16 PM
Its no different to having a different speed limit when you cross the border.
It's a bit easier to reduce your speed than your blood alcohol in fairness.
It's still a daft argument.
It's a bit easier to reduce your speed than your blood alcohol in fairness.
Depends on how plastered you are :)
SligoBrewer
22/10/2009, 2:03 AM
If they were really serious about saving lives they'd enforce the existing laws. The amount of learner drivers driving around on their own.
O/T
Learner drivers don't kill people unless they're idiots, and idiots will continue to drive like idiots after they get their test. This learner driver thing is bull****.
Virtually all the FF publicans are against the reduction: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1020/breaking27.htm
FYP
O/T
Learner drivers don't kill people unless they're idiots, and idiots will continue to drive like idiots after they get their test. This learner driver thing is bull****.
FYP
Thats just one area. What statistics are you using to say learner drivers don't kill people:confused:They should still be enforcing the existings laws.
10 will lose lives after drink-drive climbdown
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/10-will-lose-lives-after-drinkdrive-climbdown-1920930.html
AT LEAST 10 people will die on our roads over the next 12 months because of the Government's climbdown on plans to reduce drink-driving limits, road safety chiefs predicted last night.
Learner drivers don't kill people unless they're idiots, and idiots will continue to drive like idiots after they get their test. This learner driver thing is bull****.
It's irrelevant whether they do or don't, the point is the lack of enforcement. They don't even enforce the law when it involves the offender having a feckin sticker on the outside of the car telling everyone that they're breaking the law!
dahamsta
22/10/2009, 10:19 AM
Ringo, do you not see the irony of tacking SligoBrewer on statistics, and then posting makey-uppey RSA statistics yourself?
pineapple stu
22/10/2009, 10:28 AM
O/T
Learner drivers don't kill people unless they're idiots, and idiots will continue to drive like idiots after they get their test. This learner driver thing is bull****.
Surely the point is that idiots don't get their test?
Are there any figures for the number of deaths caused by people with between 50 and 80 mgs?
And for the record, I've no problem with the principle of reducing the drink level, even though I often drive home after a UCD game with a couple of (i.e. two) pints on me. Perfectly legally too, I might add, as I've passed a breathalyser test. I'd be cynical like others that this isn't a particularly major problem, and there are other issues that need addressing beforehand.
Ringo
22/10/2009, 10:41 AM
Ringo, do you not see the irony of tacking SligoBrewer on statistics, and then posting makey-uppey RSA statistics yourself?
The link was to a story in the independent, which I agree has little or any facts other than a scare tactic and it suits the RSA agenda. But the point remains you can't say learner drivers don't kill people no mare than you can say they do kill people. The point I made earlier on is that the present laws should be enforced in the government are serious about road deaths. Just past by the bus gate in Dublin at College Green where there are four traffic cops giving out tickets to motorists for going through it. Why aren’t they showing as much interest in speeding, careless driving etc? Dempsey must have a lot of time on his hands , if this is the best he can come up with. Speed limits are a joke in this country. 80KM on the new N4 & yet the same applys on a small boreen near where I live.
Lionel Ritchie
22/10/2009, 11:09 AM
NIs transport minister Edwin Poots was on Morning Ireland earlier where he said harmonising laws cross-jurisdictionally is no impediment to our government proceeding with reducing the limit to 50mg. I got the impression he resented the attempt by some in FF to use the border as an excuse to shelve, park or kick to touch this idea.
He said there has been much by way of joined up planning for this going on already and that the north will have the limit down to 50mg early next year. He also stated a preference for a reduction to 20mg.
kingdom hoop
22/10/2009, 11:20 AM
I wouldn't favour a reduction to 20mg. It seems* I'd likely still pass a test at 50mg after two pints, so my initial resistance to the proposal has weakened. The average man, drinking at an average pace, could still consume two pints. And the average woman, drinking at an average pace, can have two glasses of wine. I think that's a fair and responsible limit for fair and responsible people.
*Based on a handy individualised blood-alcohol calculator at the following address (which has a rogue comma to avoid the foot.ie language censor) - www.rup,issed.com. - http://url.ie/2oog.
Cheers dahamsta, I've learned something new today.
dahamsta
22/10/2009, 11:23 AM
( Just use a URL shortener, par example: http://url.ie/2oo6 )
Lionel Ritchie
22/10/2009, 11:46 AM
I wouldn't favour a reduction to 20mg. It seems* I'd likely still pass a test at 50mg after two pints, so my initial resistance to the proposal has weakened. The average man, drinking at an average pace, could still consume two pints. And the average woman, drinking at an average pace, can have two glasses of wine. I think that's a fair and responsible limit for fair and responsible people.
*Based on a handy individualised blood-alcohol calculator at the following address (which has a rogue comma to avoid the foot.ie language censor) - www.rup,issed.com. - http://url.ie/2oog.
Cheers dahamsta, I've learned something new today.
Just tried it there. Inputted a saturday night scenario which is approx 8 x pints of 4.2% beer. Consumption commenced at 9pm and nearly 16 hours has elapsed. ...Told me I'd still need to Get a Taxi.
Reduced it to 7 pints and it claimed I was feeling a bit tipsy.
Reduced it to 6 pints and it said I was "not even mellow" (which I assume means stone cold sober.)
dahamsta
22/10/2009, 11:56 AM
8 pints? Wuss. ;)
pineapple stu
22/10/2009, 12:06 PM
Think that's bad? It tells me that after 8 pints over six hours, I "should be unconscious by now" :eek:
John83
22/10/2009, 12:13 PM
Think that's bad? It tells me that after 8 pints over six hours, I "should be unconscious by now" :eek:
It equates shortarse with lightweight.
osarusan
23/10/2009, 9:00 AM
Michael Healy-Rae gave a display of consummate skill on how to portray yourself as an idiot on Prime Time last night. Tried to argue with doctors about alcohol inhibiting ability to drive, and argued that most of the accidents involving drink-driving took place on primary roads, not the muddy boreens his constituents drive home on after a few pints.
Ringo
23/10/2009, 11:28 AM
Michael Healy-Rae gave a display of consummate skill on how to portray yourself as an idiot on Prime Time last night. Tried to argue with doctors about alcohol inhibiting ability to drive, and argued that most of the accidents involving drink-driving took place on primary roads, not the muddy boreens his constituents drive home on after a few pints.
In fairness to him, no one else had the balls to go on an argue the case. I did think he's trying to out gombeen his father:)
Lionel Ritchie
23/10/2009, 11:34 AM
Michael Healy-Rae gave a display of consummate skill on how to portray yourself as an idiot on Prime Time last night. Tried to argue with doctors about alcohol inhibiting ability to drive, and argued that most of the accidents involving drink-driving took place on primary roads, not the muddy boreens his constituents drive home on after a few pints.
Charming. I missed him as I opted for question time so as to watch an English pig-ignorant imbecile stutter through sh*te rather than avail of the home grown variety.
osarusan
23/10/2009, 2:35 PM
In fairness to him, no one else had the balls to go on an argue the case.
True. Even Miriam complimented him on that. All these other backbenchers knew that their arguments wouldn't hold water.
Charming. I missed him as I opted for question time so as to watch an English pig-ignorant imbecile stutter through sh*te rather than avail of the home grown variety.
Griffin came across woefully badly I thought. Although it was a real lynch mob out for him, and I thought Dimbleby didn't moderate very well.
SligoBrewer
24/10/2009, 12:33 PM
Surely the point is that idiots don't get their test?
There are at least ten times the amounts of "idiots" driving with little pink pieces of paper than there are "idiots" driving with green ones.
Razors left peg
25/10/2009, 10:43 AM
there is a question I always wondered about and this seems to be the right thread to ask it on. If I had 8 pints on a night out, by what time the next day would I be legal to drive if I had stopped drinking at midnight
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