Shelbourne and Tolka [Archive]

fionnsci

15/10/2009, 4:07 PM

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere.

DUBLIN rivals Shelbourne and Bohemians will be playing under the same roof at Dalymount Park next season as Shels' 20-year stay at Tolka Park is over.
The Reds have made Tolka their home for the past two decades, winning five league titles there, but due to the planned redevelopment of the ground and the building of apartments, the team are on the move.
And today it has been revealed that Shels are close to an agreement on a short-term tenancy deal with Bohs to use Dalymount for the foreseeable future.
The revenue will be welcomed into the coffers at Bohs as Shels join the likes of Shamrock Rovers and Dublin City in using Dalymount as a home venue.
Shels are in with a chance of winning promotion to the Premier Division next season as they are just two points behind Division One leaders UCD but have a game in hand.

From the herald yesterday.

Does that mean that that Tolka is being sold of for appartments or that improvements are being made to the ground? Or both?

dfx-

15/10/2009, 4:09 PM

It means two trips to Dalymount again next season :(

pineapple stu

15/10/2009, 4:18 PM

Does that mean that that Tolka is being sold of for appartments or that improvements are being made to the ground? Or both?
Sure Tolka was sold years ago. That's how they won all their league titles.

fionnsci

15/10/2009, 4:28 PM

Sure Tolka was sold years ago. That's how they won all their league titles.

So where do they plan on ending up? Says it's a short term lease on Dalymount. I think I remember reading something about the AUL in the past but surely that would be a disaster.....

pineapple stu

15/10/2009, 4:36 PM

*Shrugs shoulders*

I like this post on the Shels forum, incidentally -

Kicked out of, what is in real terms, a pretty decent LOI stadium for no shagging reason other then fanciful property marketering that has brought this country to its knees.
Leaving Tolka has nothing to do with the club selling the lease, it seems.

shelsfan1

15/10/2009, 4:37 PM

From the shels website. Posted yesterday

An article in today’s Evening Herald claims that Shelbourne FC will be playing out of Dalymount Park next season. Shelbourne FC confirms that discussions are ongoing with a number of parties, including Bohemian FC, about relocating from Tolka Park. However at this time no decision has been made concerning where Shelbourne FC will play its home matches next season. A further statement will be issued in due course.

Shelbourne FC Board of Management

Ezeikial

15/10/2009, 5:17 PM

Could this have been the earth shattering revelation previously promised by Tipp Top?

GalwayRed

15/10/2009, 5:19 PM

Could this have been the earth shattering revelation previously promised by Tipp Top?
I doubt it seeing as our board were pretty quick to quash the story. At the moment Dalymount does seem the most likely option though:(.

passerrby

15/10/2009, 5:28 PM

And today it has been revealed that Shels are close to an agreement on a short-term tenancy deal with Bohs to use Dalymount for the foreseeable future.

dont you just love the word short term .used so often in the past

Ezeikial

15/10/2009, 5:41 PM

I doubt it seeing as our board were pretty quick to quash the story. At the moment Dalymount does seem the most likely option though:(.

Tipp Top knows all - dont doubt him!!!!

Mr A

15/10/2009, 5:43 PM

Short term for the foreseeable future.

If anything ever summed up the LOI......

1895ringsend

15/10/2009, 5:45 PM

[QUOTE=fionnsci;1250979].[/I]
And today it has been revealed that Shels are close to an agreement on a short-term tenancy deal with Bohs to use Dalymount for the foreseeable future.
QUOTE]

dont you just love the word short term .used so often in the past

the word 'short term' would best describe shelbournes future of they go in as a tenant to dalymount.;) Theres been numerous grounds mentioned as new homes to shels, the aul,morten stadium, whitehall,irishtown stadium and donnybrook stadium.

The club is gonna have to pay rent wherever it go's anyway but of all the grounds mentioned donnybrook stadium is the most appealing as the club would'nt be far from its roots. Leinster are'nt using it for senior games and there were apparantley discussions between shels and the owner at some stage. Nice new stand to. However it could of been just talk.

dalyer would seem the most likely with all these rumours.

centre mid

15/10/2009, 5:47 PM

I remember talk of Donnybrook some time ago (possibly just on foot.ie) but never heard anything since.

1895ringsend

15/10/2009, 5:55 PM

I remember talk of Donnybrook some time ago (possibly just on foot.ie) but never heard anything since.

It would be a perfect location for us and the facilities are great with quality flood lights and the new stand, Theres also plans to build 2 new stands behind each goal but somebody pointed out earlier on the shelsweb that the ground is used a lot from aug to may with schoolboy rugby games and the pitch is in bits most of the time. maybe thats why the club never followed it up and talks went quiet.

peadar1987

15/10/2009, 7:16 PM

I think Donnybrook would be ideal for Shels. A largely untapped supporter base (Sorry UCD fans, but let's face it, ye are never going to draw the large-scale support of the wider community, because of the nature of the club), a decent stadium, and the chance to start afresh, a la Shams. The only issue I could see would be the pitch, although teams like Hull and Wigan across the water seem to be able to share with rugby teams without too much hassle.

Dunny

15/10/2009, 7:34 PM

Is it an absolute 100%+ that Shels won't be in Tolka next season?

Schumi

15/10/2009, 7:36 PM

galwayjames

15/10/2009, 8:06 PM

Pity, I liked Tolka and to think Shels won't get a new home instead of it is disappointing. I wouldn't be surprised if we come back in 20 years and they've played in every ground in Dublin.

Why would they build apartments there in the current climate? Seems stupid to me.

stann

15/10/2009, 9:37 PM

Whatever about what ground Shels end up in it's a shame to see Tolka go. It's a ground that seems to get a lot of stick on here but must say I always liked it. Was one of the first away grounds I was in too.

A face

15/10/2009, 10:19 PM

This is just news that we all knew we'd hear about sooner or later, nothing ground breaking in it (pardon the pun) but i'm just surprised that there wasn't more info on the efforts of an inevitable move to another ground. I would have thought the club would have been working on this since/before they sold the lease.

holidaysong

15/10/2009, 10:48 PM

I think it'd be great for Shels if they could get into Irishtown Stadium. I remember reading on here that they were trying that option. Any Shels fans know if it's a possibility?

peadar1987

15/10/2009, 11:12 PM

Donnybrook gets way more use than any of those pitches. There are two or three schools games a week there in January and February and the pitch is usually a mess before the end of those. I can't imagine it'd be any way decent for the start of the season.

I'll take your word for it. I haven't been since Leinster stopped playing senior games there.

Anyway, I think moving to Dalymount would be the worst thing they could do for attendances. They'd be directly competing for support with one of the top clubs in the league, which is never going to work out.

LeixlipRed

15/10/2009, 11:25 PM

I think it'd be great for Shels if they could get into Irishtown Stadium. I remember reading on here that they were trying that option. Any Shels fans know if it's a possibility?

Residents oppose any move in there. It's been looked into as has every single option available. Dalymount as a permanent or semi-permanent option would be the end of Shels imo.

dcfcsteve

15/10/2009, 11:52 PM

pineapple stu

16/10/2009, 9:14 AM

(Sorry UCD fans, but let's face it, ye are never going to draw the large-scale support of the wider community, because of the nature of the club)
I shall chose to disagree; a club's nature has nothing to do with it.

Anyway, I think moving to Dalymount would be the worst thing they could do for attendances. They'd be directly competing for support with one of the top clubs in the league, which is never going to work out.
Let's see how good Bohs are once they spend what they can afford. Drogheda were one of the top clubs in the league the last few years. But I agree that it's not a great move for them. Still, it's all of their own doing.

(Edit - UCD discussion moved to the UCD forum to keep this one on topic)

1895ringsend

16/10/2009, 12:48 PM

Bohs and Shels co-habiting in sin ?

The FAI get their wish re stadium sharing after all.

Many's a temporary arrangement become very permanent - particularly if you're stuck without any alternative options.

Totally agree!! It'l be a permanent move.We've no plan B. irishtown stadium was prob only a pipe dream. Shelbourne park which was our original home for almost 50 years would have been another option but it prob would'nt be suitable for football these days anyway. the only ground near our traditional home would be donnybrook stadium and that dose'nt seem to be on the table anymore. Its a pity because it would have been a decent league of ireland ground.

seand

16/10/2009, 12:58 PM

Short term for the foreseeable future.

If anything ever summed up the LOI......

That really does say it all, the League of Ireland in a nutshell.

dong

16/10/2009, 1:01 PM

Such a shame to see a good league of Ireland ground with a proud history being filled with apartments. As if we haven't enough apartments in this country as it is.
I find it seriously depressing tbh.

Higgo

16/10/2009, 1:10 PM

Sure Tolka was sold years ago. That's how they won all their league titles.

Nothing to do with all the games we won, the cleansheets we kept or the goals we scored so? :rolleyes:

blackholesun

16/10/2009, 1:13 PM

Such a shame to see a good league of Ireland ground with a proud history being filled with apartments. As if we haven't enough apartments in this country as it is.
I find it seriously depressing tbh.

+1 ...

It's a disgrace really that Ollie via his ego and greed, Ollie ran Shels into the ground and sold the ground out from under tem chasing the Champions league. I am sure auld Mr Donnelly is rolling in his grave!

It will be intestesting to see where Shels end up and fare in the next 5-10 years. Pity for them the Whitehall Home Farm share option was voted down.

bhs

Mr A

16/10/2009, 1:17 PM

Do Shels have any money from the sale of Tolka left to help smooth passage into a new ground?

pineapple stu

16/10/2009, 1:18 PM

Nothing to do with all the games we won, the cleansheets we kept or the goals we scored so? :rolleyes:
Wow. Talk about disconnection of events.

You don't think the money from the sale of the lease helped you buy the players who won the games, scored the goals and kept the clean sheets?

Bluebeard

16/10/2009, 2:06 PM

Are we all forgetting the plan to move Shels to Swords or Donabate or any other random place from about three years ago?

What will happen is in about three to four years' time, when one or other is in trouble, a deal will be brokered to merge Sporting Fingal and Shelbourne to create a Shelbourne-Fingal (or some such name) superclub, which will aim to be based in a new 14,000 seater stadium on land bought in Rush, which will be built in four years time. In the meantime the new club will continue to play in Morton Stadium, take the Shels jersey as the home kit and the SF as the away, and have a double crest. After four or five years of the merger, when the hopes of domination are dashed, the stadium isn't built and the people of Rush are not flocking to Santry (and why would they - it's a nightmare journey), the crest will "evolve" about four times, and the media will continuously drop the Fingal bit, and it will be seen by all as being standard mid-table Santry based Shelbourne, and any grants given will be spent on the improvement of Morton Stadium. The club will have a fantastic training ground in Rush, if it weren't for the wind, and Owen Heary will be the boss...

Personally, I don't hope that happens. I am also saddened to see the end of Tolka - a flawed ground, but a legendary one.

marinobohs

16/10/2009, 2:20 PM

+1 ...

It's a disgrace really that Ollie via his ego and greed, Ollie ran Shels into the ground and sold the ground out from under tem chasing the Champions league. I am sure auld Mr Donnelly is rolling in his grave!

It will be intestesting to see where Shels end up and fare in the next 5-10 years. Pity for them the Whitehall Home Farm share option was voted down.

bhs

Ironically enough at the time bohs membership rejected Shels offer to buy half of Dalymount (for a very low price) Shels were offered the option of renting at Dalymount, on a short term or long term basis. The offer was rejected by Ollie Byrne RIP in his annoyance at not getting to buy 50% of Dalymount. Had Shels taken the option they could have moved smoothly into Dalymount, not gone into finanacial meltdown (while spending was always unsustainable it was, at that point manageable) and arranged their future long term. bohs would also have benifited from the rent received. Talk about cutting off your nose.......

1895ringsend

16/10/2009, 2:24 PM

Do Shels have any money from the sale of Tolka left to help smooth passage into a new ground?

apparantley there's be 2-3 million euros but we have'nt been told an exact figure.

marinobohs

16/10/2009, 2:27 PM

Do Shels have any money from the sale of Tolka left to help smooth passage into a new ground?

Think Shels got most of the money up front to fund the "glory era" they enjoyed in 90's/ 2000's. Pretty sure what was left (or at least vast bulk of it) was drawn down to pay off creditors when the club went into finanacial meltdown.
Hasten to add this info is what I have gleamed from Shels fans over last few years so if anyone out there has better intel feel free to correct me ;)

John83

16/10/2009, 2:39 PM

apparantley there's be 2-3 million euros but we have'nt been told an exact figure.
My understanding of that - based, I should clarify, only on what I've read here - is that there was about that amount left a couple of years ago, and that it's been drawn against since to help clear remaining debts. As ever though, we won't really know until Shels actually move out of Tolka.

theneutral

16/10/2009, 4:06 PM

pineapple stu

16/10/2009, 4:28 PM

Maybe now's a good time to move in with Bohs, given their financial problems?

blackholesun

16/10/2009, 4:30 PM

What will happen is in about three to four years' time, when one or other is in trouble, a deal will be brokered to merge Sporting Fingal and Shelbourne to create a Shelbourne-Fingal (or some such name) superclub, which will aim to be based in a new 14,000 seater stadium on land bought in Rush, which will be built in four years time. In the meantime the new club will continue to play in Morton Stadium, take the Shels jersey as the home kit and the SF as the away, and have a double crest. After four or five years of the merger, when the hopes of domination are dashed, the stadium isn't built and the people of Rush are not flocking to Santry (and why would they - it's a nightmare journey), the crest will "evolve" about four times, and the media will continuously drop the Fingal bit, and it will be seen by all as being standard mid-table Santry based Shelbourne, and any grants given will be spent on the improvement of Morton Stadium. The club will have a fantastic training ground in Rush, if it weren't for the wind, and Owen Heary will be the boss...

You are probably spot on with most of those predictions ...

bhs

theneutral

16/10/2009, 4:32 PM

Hadnt thought of that.

It would make sense, theyd most likely be getting a better deal now that Bohs are desperate than if they waited the two years and Bohs had gotten themselves on an even keel again.

It would be a real shame to see Tolka laying empty if that happened especially when there are grounds in this country of a far lesser standard.

thischarmingman

16/10/2009, 5:50 PM

i wouldnt be surprised if Tolka lies derelict annd dormant for one or two years before the first diggers are on site!

Isn't that what it's like most Friday nights anyway?

:cool:

dfx-

16/10/2009, 6:14 PM

Ironically enough at the time bohs membership rejected Shels offer to buy half of Dalymount (for a very low price) Shels were offered the option of renting at Dalymount, on a short term or long term basis. The offer was rejected by Ollie Byrne RIP in his annoyance at not getting to buy 50% of Dalymount. Had Shels taken the option they could have moved smoothly into Dalymount, not gone into finanacial meltdown (while spending was always unsustainable it was, at that point manageable) and arranged their future long term. bohs would also have benifited from the rent received. Talk about cutting off your nose.......

Bohs would've just sold it again anyway to guarantee benefit :)

dcfcsteve

17/10/2009, 12:34 AM

Such a shame to see a good league of Ireland ground with a proud history being filled with apartments. As if we haven't enough apartments in this country as it is.
I find it seriously depressing tbh.

There is an economic theory/truism that land will always revert to its highest value use.

Let's face it - no-one values LOI football. And not just in economic terms either...

dcfcsteve

17/10/2009, 12:45 AM

I find it hard to believe that Tolka is to be stripped and appartments built in its place NOW of all times, the building industry in this country is in tatters and i really cant see why or which builder would be crazy enough to take a punt on this type of project at this particular moment in time!

Shels exit seems a bit hasty on somebodies behalf and i wouldnt be surprised if Tolka lies derelict annd dormant for one or two years before the first diggers are on site!

Builders don't take the punt - they just build. It's developers who take the punt. And in fairness - for a developer who has cash, it may seem a relatively sensible idea.

Now isn't a good time to sell apartments - but it's a good time to be building them if you have independent financing. The construction industry is at rock-bottom, so you could pretty much name your own price to get a builder. It'd take two or more years before any of the properties were ready to sell (is there even any planning permission in-place for the Tolka site ?), by which time you would reasonably hope the housing market would have regained at least some of its confidence (even if prices hadn't increased). If things haven't improved in two years time - at least in terms of mood/confidenece, if not also in availability of borrowing - then we're all in serious trouble.

The alternative option for a developer with access to cash would be to leave it in the bank, where it would earn nothing for the foreseeable future. Developers like to develop properties.

So I could see some method in their apparent madness. Though the key questions is surely whether any PP is in place ?

endabob1

17/10/2009, 5:52 AM

The country is over-stocked with appartments, net emigration for the first time since 1995, there's nobody left to buy or occupy them.

gael353

17/10/2009, 10:40 AM

The country is over-stocked with appartments, net emigration for the first time since 1995, there's nobody left to buy or occupy them.

this ground will be taken over by NAMA, give it a year and you'll get it off them for 2d 6. even if its in paper that they have to move out keep playing there what develper is gonna get off his arse to remove squatters on a mama site??? personally id like to see a merger between two dublin first division clubs one with history and a few fans the other with money and no fans and do a ground share in a new stadium out their side of town. q the rant of these two clubs fans but its just my opinion

Buile Shuibhne

17/10/2009, 7:37 PM

Short term for the foreseeable future.

If anything ever summed up the LOI......

Re the above and someone asked about planning permission to build apartments on the Tolka Park site:

The current Dublin City Development Plan 2005 - 2011 contains a proviso preventing Tolka Park from being rezoned for any other use other than sporting, unless Shels have found a permanent home elsewhere. The City Manager put in place to prevent another Rovers Milltown 20 year situation happening again.

The new 2011 - 2017 Plant has just begun to be drafted and the preliminary Managers Report states - "Good to retain Tolka Park as a sports facilty" at the bottom of page 138.

http://www.dublincity.ie/Planning/DublinCityDevelopmentPlan/Documents/WEB%20COPY%20Manager%27s%20Report.pdf

Shels are looking for a permanent new base. They're not going to complete the sale of Tolka Park and draw down the final 3 or 4 million of the sale price until they've done the deal on the new permanent home.

From what I heard last night they're hoping to get this sorted by 2011 meaning Shels will have at least one more year in Tolka.

Presumably the new owners/developers are in no great rush in the current economic climate to start building in the immediate short term -even if they could.

I hope this clears up some of misconceptions in this thread.

peadar1987

17/10/2009, 8:31 PM

Re the above and someone asked about planning permission to build apartments on the Tolka Park site:

The current Dublin City Development Plan 2005 - 2011 contains a proviso preventing Tolka Park from being rezoned for any other use other than sporting, unless Shels have found a permanent home elsewhere. The City Manager put in place to prevent another Rovers Milltown 20 year situation happening again.

The new 2011 - 2017 Plant has just begun to be drafted and the preliminary Managers Report states - "Good to retain Tolka Park as a sports facilty" at the bottom of page 138.

http://www.dublincity.ie/Planning/DublinCityDevelopmentPlan/Documents/WEB%20COPY%20Manager%27s%20Report.pdf

Shels are looking for a permanent new base. They're not going to complete the sale of Tolka Park and draw down the final 3 or 4 million of the sale price until they've done the deal on the new permanent home.

From what I heard last night they're hoping to get this sorted by 2011 meaning Shels will have at least one more year in Tolka.

Presumably the new owners/developers are in no great rush in the current economic climate to start building in the immediate short term -even if they could.

I hope this clears up some of misconceptions in this thread.

This means the developer has a vested interest in helping find Shels a new home, which can only be good for the club.

dcfcsteve

18/10/2009, 5:27 PM

The country is over-stocked with appartments, net emigration for the first time since 1995, there's nobody left to buy or occupy them.

Nonesense. If the price is right, an apartment will sell - no matter what the financial conditions. There's plenty of people renting who want to own their own home at some point.

Plus - do you expect things to have not changed at all in 2-3yrs time ?