Qualifying campaign - 4 wins 6 draws [Archive]

paul_oshea

14/10/2009, 9:07 PM

i beleive if we had played georgia at home we would have only drawn and it would have been 3 wins 7 draws, granted it still would have been enough to come second, but not to actually probably qualify for the play-offs.

At the end of the day we are still conceding goals, whats the difference in terms of goals conceded between this campaign and the last one, taking away the fact we got hammered by cyprus? I doubt its that much. I did think Trap was going to focus on this and while we are improved in that regard its nothing significant of a change really.

I think looking back, staunton was obviouslly a blip and we were unbeleiveably poor, but i dont think we have been that much different between the kerr campaign and this one. We were boring then to watch and we still are. The difference is a slice of luck when we needed it, and obviouslly the experience of Trap. Trap obviouslly has been around long enough to see these changes and he has that bit of luck on his side.

We have improved on set pieces and i think that has given us an advantage that we haven't had before as we have been able to go ahead, instead of having to constantly come from behind against the bigger teams like in the past, when the only option is to throw caution to the wind.

Summing up, im still left scratching the head, i dont think we have improved that much, we have a manager who has luck on his side i beleive, and that little bit of experience that has got us draws but very little else. I hope this is just a stepping stone and we can improve.

mattl

14/10/2009, 9:09 PM

Totally agree mate. Fingers crossed that bit of luck will get us through the play-off!

If we draw Greece we'll know for sure how lucky he is ;)

DmanDmythDledge

14/10/2009, 9:16 PM

Performance wise we haven't been at the races, outplayed in most games but I disagree with you Paul; I think it is our solid defence that has got us through- 8 goals conceded from 10 games played. I think we got fortunate with the group pairing though as we would have failed to qualify from most groups but you can only beat what's put in front of you so hopefully we get Greece in the playoffs. :)

Closed Account 2

14/10/2009, 9:20 PM

Well to mitigate that it's worth saying we had a much harder group now than under Kerr.

Then
1. France
2. Switzerland
3. Israel
4. IRELAND
5. Cyprus
6. Faroe Islands

Now
1. Italy
2. IRELAND
3. Bulgaria
4. Cyprus
5. Montenegro
6. Georgia

Italy are probably better than France of the Kerr era, although that is much of a muchness. Cyprus are significantly better than 4 years ago. Bulgaria are on a par with Switzerland, Montenegro are on a par with Israel and Georgia are much better than the Faroes. We've slipped into a worse seeding than in 4 years ago, so have a harder group. Montenegro were the lowest seed in our group - in other words they were our Faroes, San Marino, Malta etc, which was a freak situation based on the fact they were new to UEFA.

DmanDmythDledge

14/10/2009, 9:28 PM

I think the group then was a lot harder. That France side went on to the World Cup final (albeit with Zidane); Italy are worse than two years ago as their side was at their peak then. The Swiss topped their World Cup group, couldn't see Bulgaria doing that. Israel at that time were an extremely difficult side to beat; only lost 3/4 games over 3 qualifying games at time so much better than the current Cyprus side. Montenegro and Georgia > old Cyrprus and Faroes alright but the top end of the group where the games weren't bread and butter results was significantly harder that time under Kerr.

Emmet7

14/10/2009, 9:29 PM

We conceded an awful amount of soft goals, but that's because of a lack of experience and the general averageness of the team.

We were unlucky not to beat the Italians in Bari. The Petrov goal in Dublin was a fluke and an OG.

The Italian goals in Dublin were soft especially the corner, a complete schoolboy error to leave a player unmarked.

The draw in Bulgaria was a fair result, although again poor defending cost us their goal.

If Ireland tightened up in a few key areas, we would become a more formiddable side. We are not quite the level of the team of the late 80's and early 90's which had a very good defence, very good midfield and one or two handy forwards.

There is a progression although we do lapse on occassion.

We need to move it to another level for the play-offs and play at 110% of what we did up until now.

Trap's approach and I am sure he has done this hundreds of times in European Club football will probably be to go abroad, nick a single goal victory, come back to Dublin and put everyone behind the ball and shut up shop. It won't be pretty and Dunphy and Giles will have a fit in the studio, but who cares, as long as we qualify. I don't want us to play open and expansive football and lose 5 - 4 in the qualifiers.

Qualification is all that matters and the end justifies the means. We can play the open and expansive football at the world cup. We can bring Andy Reid along to that and maybe even Stephen Ireland.

mattl

14/10/2009, 9:33 PM

I'm sick of watching Ireland play against the so called 'weaker' teams as it's just painful. However I do think they'll up for it for the play-offs and the two legged style will suit them.

I'd be surprised if Trap is going to lose or win either leg - I think we can progress but it's going to be on the away goals rule! Really important we score away and not concede at home..

Acornvilla

14/10/2009, 9:42 PM

irishultra

14/10/2009, 9:50 PM

i think ireland play without any guts, drive, ambition, skill, intensity and passion but somehow by playing within ourselves we have got 2nd.

irishultra

14/10/2009, 10:00 PM

I see slovakia qualified automatically for the world cup. they seemed like a real poor team(few good players), guess their group wasnt up too much

Acornvilla

14/10/2009, 10:00 PM

thats a very harsh sentiment they have atleast some of all the above!

Morbo

14/10/2009, 10:00 PM

i beleive if we had played georgia at home we would have only drawn and it would have been 3 wins 7 draws, granted it still would have been enough to come second, but not to actually probably qualify for the play-offs.
If we had drawn that home game with Georgia we would still be in the playoffs as the Georgia games don't count in the 2nd placed table.

Anyway I don't think we will beat France or Portugal but I think we have a good chance against Russia or Greece, if we get the away leg first I'd put us as slight favourites against Greece and about a 50/50 against Russia.

Montenegrin

14/10/2009, 10:04 PM

You Irish are funny people.I think that even if you win WC,you would complain about something.Relax-it is true that FIFA screwed you,but its not over until fat lady sing(if that is right saying?).

DmanDmythDledge

14/10/2009, 10:06 PM

Anyway I don't think we will beat France or Portugal but I think we have a good chance against Russia or Greece, if we get the away leg first I'd put us as slight favourites against Greece and about a 50/50 against Russia.
Russia are the best team in the playoffs imo.

Acornvilla

14/10/2009, 10:13 PM

Yard of Pace

14/10/2009, 10:14 PM

Someone on here said it a while ago, that we play to the level of our opposition. It's been true in just about every game and it's the one thing I'd like to see change.
Whoever we play next I think we'll do well and hopefully we'll get a bit of luck and win. I just wish we had something about the team or someone in the team to take a game by the scruff of the neck and put it to bed. We've had a lot of luck but to keep winning 1-0 I think you need serious quality 1-11 or a gigantic amount of luck.

Crosby87

14/10/2009, 10:30 PM

elroy

14/10/2009, 10:34 PM

You Irish are funny people.I think that even if you win WC,you would complain about something.Relax-it is true that FIFA screwed you,but its not over until fat lady sing(if that is right saying?).

Good to have an objective opinion. Thanks Monte, some people on this site are not happy unless everything goes our way, we win every game and are playing attractive football.
The reality is that pretty much every Irish fan wouldve snatched this scenario at the start of the campaign, we have done well. Tonights game was a no show. We have given the World Champions two really tough games and come through a relatively strong group. There were alot weaker groups than ours. Who knows what will happen in the playoffs, but we have made alot of progress this campaign, the team has a purpose and shape that was so absent in the last few campaigns. With a bit of luck we couldve won this group but fingers crossed for the playoffs.

elroy

14/10/2009, 11:05 PM

Interesting stat:

What do Italy, Germany, Netherlands, Spain and Ireland have in common??

All the above are the only countries to go through qualifying unbeaten yet we are the only one of the above not to qualify automatically. Nonetheless a notable achievement.

irishultra

14/10/2009, 11:17 PM

drawing 6 games will do that ;)

i dont think anybody can deny that we prob could have done better in this group. if trapattoni had made some even better decisions we could be booking our place in SA now.

mandrake

14/10/2009, 11:45 PM

oh brilliant a really good thread all summed up very well. PLayoffs we will just about make it to finals altho i fear france. we will play it very tight, great to be in playoffs, we wouldve taken it at start. thoughedt group in years was kerrs goup fren
/swiss/isreal but i thnks we'll make it..

Royal rover

15/10/2009, 7:03 AM

i think personally Kerr had a better group of players to choose from - the negativity of some of these posts is unreal - FFS look where we were 2 years ago with the likes of Jonathan douglas been the nucleus of our team in some games - the whole stan era was a joke - and yet 2 years on we sit here and argue that we could of won the group, i do believe teams will not want to meet us in the playoffs - the results against Italy will do our confidence good, personally i'm hoping for greece

Scram

15/10/2009, 7:40 AM

Bulgaria were absolutely rubbish and played all their games with the spirit and fight of 11 Berbatovs.

“World Champions” or not, Italy looked way past their best other than in spells and we should have beaten their 10 men.

We used to be upset if we didn’t win home games, now draws are good enough.

The fact is that with the other minnows in the group and Italy and Bulgaria in first gear, we could have won this group. No losses, good news but with a large dollop of luck.

YES, It’s better than under Staunton, but is this the benchmark??

If Trapatoni was Irish he would heavily, heavily criticized and most certainly would NOT have a new lucrative contract UNLESS we qualified for South Africa, AND there would be HUGE pressure on to bring Andy Reid in…Trap is very much the untouchable Don.

endabob1

15/10/2009, 8:13 AM

Italy did enough, they always do, had we beaten them on Saturday night I think they would have battered Cyprus last night (for the record I think had last nights game meant anything to us, we would have won too)
Bulgaria are a technically very good side they passed the crap out of us on occasions in both Sofia & Dublin, regardless of their supposed lack of passion or Spirit they would beat a lot of sides..
The key result was in Cyprus, becoming a very difficult place for mid ranked teams to win in, we did, just, but that was all that was required.

Rewind 13 months to the begining of this campaign and ask yourself, if you had been offered 2nd place, play-off & an unbeaten record would you have taken it......

bogwarrior

15/10/2009, 8:49 AM

i think ireland play without any guts, drive, ambition, skill, intensity and passion but somehow by playing within ourselves we have got 2nd.

Do not agree with this at all. We play a system and stick regimentally to it. This system has gotten us through the qualifying campaign unbeaten and into the playoffs. To continually play this system, even when up against it in certain games (1-0 down in bari) requires almost all of the above.

The system I am on about is Trap playing two defensive midfielders to hold the shape of the team together. We don't hunt the ball down crazy and run around like 11 robbie keanes on acid. We keep our shape and say, ok then, if you're good enough, create some chances. Italy created little on sat. I can understand people wanting us to improve the way we play and introduce this lovely expansive game with Andy Reid in the side, Stephen Ireland back playing (maybe with a full head of hair), but it aint gonna happen!

We play to our strengths, that isn't passing and holding onto the ball and throwing 40 stepovers as a display of skill and ambition. Snap out of it!

galwayhoop

15/10/2009, 8:53 AM

If Trapatoni was Irish he would heavily, heavily criticized and most certainly would NOT have a new lucrative contract UNLESS we qualified for South Africa, AND there would be HUGE pressure on to bring Andy Reid in…Trap is very much the untouchable Don.

it is probably a good thing so that he isn't Irish in that light. I mean continuity is so underestimated in football these days.

Look at McCarthy, he was given a couple of unsuccessful campaigns to try and qualify before we got to Japan.

I think Trap has been decent in his time so far and hopefully in time we can kick on and improve, in fairness at least we are now difficult to beat and that is always a good starting point for any team. Next step is getting the winning mentality.

Personally I always thought that Kerr wasn't given long enough but he probably had lost the confidence of the players and FAI.

One day for Staunton on the other hand was too long!!

Scram

16/10/2009, 5:10 PM

it is probably a good thing so that he isn't Irish in that light. I mean continuity is so underestimated in football these days.

Look at McCarthy, he was given a couple of unsuccessful campaigns to try and qualify before we got to Japan.

I think Trap has been decent in his time so far and hopefully in time we can kick on and improve, in fairness at least we are now difficult to beat and that is always a good starting point for any team. Next step is getting the winning mentality.

Personally I always thought that Kerr wasn't given long enough but he probably had lost the confidence of the players and FAI.

One day for Staunton on the other hand was too long!!

I can't but judge Trap on the Andy reid situation and what I said above about an expectation to win home games.

Agree re. Staunton, obviously! and also re. Kerr. The more I hear Kerr on commentary etc. the more I realise how up he is on his football and players from all over. He did make some horrid decisions (one in particular v Israel) but the players didn't help (late goal in Tel Aviv, Harte miss v Swiss) and overall I'd say he was treated harshly...compare that to Trap!

Metrostars

16/10/2009, 5:43 PM

Stats for the Group Qualifying I added up:

Minutes Played:

Dunne 900
Given 900
Kilbane 900
Keane 884
O'Shea 860
Whelan 790
McGeady 657
Doyle 641
Hunt S 608
Andrews 504
Duff 440
St Ledger 360
McShane 280
ReidS 180
Folan 173
Finnan 170
Gibson 126
Miller 103
Hunt N 96
Kelly 90
Lawrence 90
Best 61
Rowlands 60
Keogh 27

Goals:
Keane 5
Doyle 2
Dunne 2
Whelan 2
Kilbane 1

Yellows (no reds!):
Whelan 2
Andrews, Best, Folan, Given, McGeady, McShane, Rowlands: 1

irishfan86

16/10/2009, 9:08 PM

Stats for the Group Qualifying I added up:Kilbane 1

When did Kilbane score? And where is St. Ledger's goal?

Stuttgart88

16/10/2009, 11:08 PM

Anyone else think that there's a big analogy between England's 2007 Rugby World Cup campaign and Irish football under Trap vs. under Stan?*

England opened against Sth Africa playing a non-structured natural game and got spanked 36-0 (?). From then on they followed a system, played to their strengths, covered up their weaknesses and relied on pressure to earn set-piece victories which, although not pleasing on the eye, achieved major results through sheer practicality.

Trap took over our team, realised that if we took teams on "honestly" we'd win some, lose some and get lost in the pack, but by imposing structure and discipline, abondoning flair, covering our faults and playing to our strengths and becoming a force from set-pieces...

*a bit unfair on Stan as I think we had to witness the Stan experiment just to see just how far off the pace we really were. I think many more experienced managers would have made similar decuisions to Stan in reaction to the Kerr era criticisms. I personally recommended abandoniong caution & taking teams on home & away.

irishultra

17/10/2009, 12:27 AM

yes but even closer to greece under otto rehaggel ;)

Stuttgart88

17/10/2009, 11:19 AM

yes but even closer to greece under otto rehaggel ;)

Hope you're right! How did they do in the 2004 qualification group?

Drumcondra 69er

17/10/2009, 11:48 AM

I can't but judge Trap on the Andy reid situation and what I said above about an expectation to win home games.

Agree re. Staunton, obviously! and also re. Kerr. The more I hear Kerr on commentary etc. the more I realise how up he is on his football and players from all over. He did make some horrid decisions (one in particular v Israel) but the players didn't help (late goal in Tel Aviv, Harte miss v Swiss) and overall I'd say he was treated harshly...compare that to Trap!

Had Kerr qualified us for play offs in either of his campaigns he probably would have got another one. For me that's a fair measure of sucess, we've only ever topped one group for Euro 88 so 2nd is the benchmark. McCarthy finished 2nd in each of his 3 campaigns, Kerr didn't manage it once unfortunately despite being perfectly placed to do so towards the end of each campaign, 1 point from our last 2 games in each.

weldoninhio

17/10/2009, 12:00 PM

I think we are screwed!!! Even if you took our 6 draws as 2 legged playoffs, we would have lost 1 and drawn 2. Italy would have won on away goals and Bulgaria and Montenegro would have drawn with us.

Portugal, Greece, Russia and France are all better opposition than everyone we've played, with the exception of the Italians, although we played them for 80 minutes in Bari when they had 10 men and only drew.

Its all well and good hoping that we get through, but be realistic, the chances of us getting there are minute at best. We don't have the players, our system is not suited to a playoff situation, and the manager is too rigid to change this. Whether the first leg is home or away the managers plan will be "don't lose" which is not the way to go, especially if the first leg is at home. If the first leg is at home and we use this tactic, any chance we had is out the window.

He has no plan B, unless you count throwing on a big man against a tired 10 man Italy as plan B. Not every team is gonna have a man sent off, and not every team will sit back as Italy did trying to hold a lead.

SuperDave

17/10/2009, 12:04 PM

Had Kerr qualified us for play offs in either of his campaigns he probably would have got another one. For me that's a fair measure of sucess, we've only ever topped one group for Euro 88 so 2nd is the benchmark. McCarthy finished 2nd in each of his 3 campaigns, Kerr didn't manage it once unfortunately despite being perfectly placed to do so towards the end of each campaign, 1 point from our last 2 games in each.

Kerr was hamstrung in his first campaign starting with 0 points from 2 games, lest you forget.

and mccarthy's team were 2nd seeds in 98 and 00 and 3rd seeds in 02, so he exceeded expectations once

kerr's team were first seeds for 2004, but with the start he had, what hope had he? if we had won at home to the swiss and drawn away to russia, we would have won the group.... surely you aren't blaming kerr for the results under mccarthy?

admittedly the record for 06 was poor but by that stage we were third seeds.

tetsujin1979

17/10/2009, 12:09 PM

Hope you're right! How did they do in the 2004 qualification group?
Finished top of group 6, ahead of Spain and Ukraine, 6 wins (including beating Spain in Zaragoza), zero draws and losses to Spain and Ukraine
more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2004_qualifying#Group_6

tetsujin1979

17/10/2009, 12:12 PM

He has no plan B, unless you count throwing on a big man against a tired 10 man Italy as plan B.
That would make the 10 men of Italy patently unfit as Folan came on after 22 minutes.

DeNiro

17/10/2009, 1:08 PM

geysir

17/10/2009, 1:20 PM

Apart from the Andy Keogh at RM for that Italy game,
Trap has stuck to a sound analysis of a player's best position and role in the team.
Possibly Trap has also used the evidence of the games played before he came.
Nevertheless, I doubt if Trap would have dropped Kav after the Cyprus game and used O'Shea at CM in a untried partnership for that last game against the Swiss.

Noelys Guitar

17/10/2009, 2:02 PM

Italy would have qualified from any group. And very probably would have finished first. So we did incredibly well to get into the play offs and remain unbeaten. We have players like Dunne, O'Shea, Given, Whelan, St Ledger, Hunt, Doyle, McGeady, Keane and Lawerence playing well for their clubs. We have a 50% chance of getting through against anyone. Trap gives us the 51/49%

Stuttgart88

17/10/2009, 5:49 PM

Don't remember that! Which game v the Swiss was it?Home game that we had to win - last game in the group. Harte missed a simple header with the goal gaping very early on in the game. Finished 0-0.

elroy

17/10/2009, 6:50 PM

Home game that we had to win - last game in the group. Harte missed a simple header with the goal gaping very early on in the game. Finished 0-0.

Considering the magnitude of the game, the performance and atmosphere that night was rubbish. To me it was obvious a change was needed, Kerr looked to have lost the team, ironically this was a factor in the reason to bring in someone like Stan!!!
We needed to win and realistically never looked like it and if anything Frei was one on one with Shay in the last min and shouldve scored.

tetsujin1979

17/10/2009, 7:57 PM

Bringing off Keane and Morrison for Doherty and Connolly, while keeping Carr and Holland on the pitch was baffling to me that night. Surely going 3-4-3, or even 2-4-4 in the last few minutes would have been better than playing out the game with a 4-4-2 that clearly wasn't going to create anything? We may as well have lost 8-0 as drawn. We needed a win and Kerr's tactics, and substitutions showed he didn't know how to go for it.

Drumcondra 69er

18/10/2009, 7:44 PM

Kerr was hamstrung in his first campaign starting with 0 points from 2 games, lest you forget.

and mccarthy's team were 2nd seeds in 98 and 00 and 3rd seeds in 02, so he exceeded expectations once

kerr's team were first seeds for 2004, but with the start he had, what hope had he? if we had won at home to the swiss and drawn away to russia, we would have won the group.... surely you aren't blaming kerr for the results under mccarthy?

admittedly the record for 06 was poor but by that stage we were third seeds.

If we had won at home to the Swiss and drawn away to Russia Kerr wouldn't have been in the job.

We still got to a position of needing to win our last 2 games to top the group by beating the minnows and failed miserabley. Let's not forget that we only gained 1 point from the reverse fixtures that we'd lost the first two games in. It was obviously a disadvantage that we'd lost the first two games but our failure to even make a fist of closing out the group was down to Kerr. The 2-0 defeat away to the Swiss with a play off place up for grabs remains one of the most shameful away performances of the modern era in a competitive game.