Great Article By Lawrenson in the Times.

[NeilMcD]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1012/1224256434732.html


I think I agree with every aspect of this article. Hit the nail on the head. He may be cringe worthy at times on BBC but this is a very good opinion piece.

[Kingdom]

Had a read of that this morning, and despite thinking he's a tosser of the highest proportions generally, I had to agree with it, word for word.

[gspain]

Yes spot on in fairness.

[Yard of Pace]

Lawro's IT pieces are almost always spot on. He's a bit of an eejit on BBC but he usually talks sense.

[lionelhutz]

Yep, he's spot on with everything there. I wonder who he's referring to when he writes "those who say we have a team full of world class players is talking rubbish"....

[Deckydee]

I agree, spot on

[yiddo]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1012/1224256434732.html


I think I agree with every aspect of this article. Hit the nail on the head. He may be cringe worthy at times on BBC but this is a very good opinion piece.

sense except for the bit about Andy Reids postition being wide midfield.

[Drumcondra 69er]

sense except for the bit about Andy Reids postition being wide midfield.

That's where he's playing for Sunderland at present.

Good article alright.

[Duggie]

That's where he's playing for Sunderland at present.

Good article alright.

ya but central midfield is his best and natural position.

[Brendan 82]

I always enjoy his articles. A reasonable voice amongst the tools. Like Richard Sadlier's post match report in the Indo online mentions Reid's absence and how we will never reach our full potential under Trap. That, in my opinion, is just embarrassingly bad journalism. Get some sense

[Drumcondra 69er]

ya but central midfield is his best and natural position.

That's open to debate. He's played out wide under a lot of managers and Bruce obviously doesn't fancy him in the centre.

[Kingdom]

sense except for the bit about Andy Reids postition being wide midfield.

I think Andy is kinda the square peg to the round hole in traps formation. Not saying he shouldn't be in the team, he should definitely be in the squad. He would be ideally suited as one of the three players in the Xmas tree formation.

[Emmet7]

Agreed, good article.

O'Shea was pulled out of position. More naive players, managers and analysts might think it's great to have your defenders up on the edge of the other team's box, but after scoring a goal and five minutes left, your defenders shouldn't be allowed cross the half way line.

[geysir]

The article is a very good read and echoes a lot of what has been written here (less eloquently though) over the past 12 months.

I don't console myself with the 'fair result' thing, it's shattering not to hold that lead for the 5 last minutes, regardless if it mattered a whit next week.
To win that game on that night would have been so special.
The most of the donkey work for our play off place was already earned.

[seand]

When he started talking about "we" I assumed it was about England. That said, good article. Somebody should wrap it around a brick and smash Dunphy's head in with it.

[DeLorean]

Couldn't disagree with much, if anything, he said, but I think most of it was pretty obvious and I still think he's an idiot.

[paul_oshea]

haha.

Lads, an awful lot of analysts say we had way better players playing among hte top teams in england years ago, the key diference was that they were top players in england but not top players in europe. Italy and to a lesser extent spain were stronger leagues then. Playing in a mid table team now in England is equivalent to the higher teams back then. So now maybe we dont have world class players but i reckon a lot of our players would get into italian teams or spanish teams outside of say the top 2 or 3. its not just 9 teams that have world class players.....

[Fergie's Son]

Fine article and it needed to be said. Dunphy and Sadlier's comments have no basis in reality. The thought that a middling Premiership player could somehow of righted the ship is a literal joke. Trapp has done wonders. We're in the play offs! After 4 years of abject misery I believe we have turned the corner.

[OwlsFan]

Had a read of that this morning, and despite thinking he's a tosser of the highest proportions generally, I had to agree with it, word for word.

Why the negative view of Lawrenson (i.e. tosser). I like the guy. Paid by the BBC so he has to take an Englaish slant on things for their games.

What he says in the article is common sense apart from those who make a living from slating Irish managers (whoever they are).

[The Legend]

I'd agree, don't hold it against him just cause he has a 70s gay porn mustache. Anything i've read from him on football usually rings true.

[Fergie's Son]

I'd agree, don't hold it against him just cause he has a 70s gay porn mustache. Anything i've read from him on football usually rings true.

Hold it against him? It's his finest feature the legend.

[The Legend]

I guess you'd like to hold other things against him ;-)

[irishultra]

Its an ok article. he's inclined to come out with clichés when talking about Ireland like how could we ever try to compete with teams by actually playing football, we just should rely on steel and determination to get by, the sort who uses the 'good against the bigger teams' statement even though it isnt true.

Ireland can be better. Dunphy is OTT, he is deluded, but that doesn't mean we can't try to play better football. They are pro footballers, it doesnt take great technique to pass the ball and get on it, this comes from management

[carloz]

I hope none of you took one minute out of your lives to read Pat Dolan in the Star. Cringeworthy. He said he knows for a fact that the Italian technical team were shocked that Lawrence was picked ahead of Hunt. FFS. His words were 'Lawrence did OK, but he is a Casino defender'. What compelte and utter Bull. He kept one of the best attacking wing backs in check the whole game. Its not like Hunt is world class at defending. He says Jack Charlton understood the Irish while Trap does not. The most pointless patethic article I have read in a long time. Angers me that we now have this kind of gutter journalism in Ireland

[pearse4t3]

I agree, i did read Pat Dolans article this morning and i taught it was the poorest piece of journalism i've read, he seems to be obseessed with the money Trap is getting, the article makes no sense. A 'casino defender', what does that even mean?

[youngirish]

haha.

Lads, an awful lot of analysts say we had way better players playing among hte top teams in england years ago, the key diference was that they were top players in england but not top players in europe. Italy and to a lesser extent spain were stronger leagues then. Playing in a mid table team now in England is equivalent to the higher teams back then. So now maybe we dont have world class players but i reckon a lot of our players would get into italian teams or spanish teams outside of say the top 2 or 3. its not just 9 teams that have world class players.....

Not quite true Paul in our team in the 80s we had McGrath, Whelan, Lawrenson, Stapleton and Brady and they certainly were some of the top players in Europe. I have no doubt in my mind we had far better players in the recent past so it's all the more commendable the job Trap has done. If we'd got him sooner we could have qualified for the last 2 euros and the last world cup with a better set of players.

[paul_oshea]

Ya fair point, but how often did all those players play together in games? Again the 90s more so i was thinking when we were doing better, but include hte 80s, how often would brady, lawrenson, whelan and mcgrath played together? lawro and brady were almost gone when mcgrath started to come of age, whelan too really.

[Greenforever]

Ya fair point, but how often did all those players play together in games? Again the 90s more so i was thinking when we were doing better, but include hte 80s, how often would brady, lawrenson, whelan and mcgrath played together? lawro and brady were almost gone when mcgrath started to come of age, whelan too really.

Any 2 of the 4 would walk rings around our current midfield with all respect to the current team, Brady and Co were real World Class


Lawrenson is spot on with his analysis as usual

[Emmet7]

The positives from both Italian games are, we really could have beaten the Italians in Bari, thinking of the chance Noel Hunt had. And we really should have beaten the Italians in Croke Park, if it wasn't for some soft goals and basic defensive mistakes.

Those people who say Trapattoni doesn't trust his players to express themselves are probably right. John O'Shea expressed himself by straying up the field. Shay Given wanted to go up for a corner kick. The system fell apart after scoring the second goal and Ireland lost their shape. Some players you have to impose discipline on. They go 2 - 1 up against Italy and they think the Italians are mugs and easily beaten, a basic lack of experience.

[Emmet7]

haha.

Lads, an awful lot of analysts say we had way better players playing among hte top teams in england years ago, the key diference was that they were top players in england but not top players in europe. Italy and to a lesser extent spain were stronger leagues then. Playing in a mid table team now in England is equivalent to the higher teams back then. So now maybe we dont have world class players but i reckon a lot of our players would get into italian teams or spanish teams outside of say the top 2 or 3. its not just 9 teams that have world class players.....

What are you on? English teams were the dominant force in Europe from 1977 to 1985 when they were kicked out.

Liverpool were the top team in Europe in those years. We had several Irish players on the Liverpool team, Whelan, Beglin and Lawrenson, all of whom played in and won the European Cup.

How many of the current Irish team have won the European Cup? Only John O'Shea.

There was also Liam Brady who played with a number of top Italian sides like Juventus.

We had Paul McGrath, Frank Stapleton, and several other Liverpool players like Houghtan and Aldridge, as well as Kevin Moran who played with Man Utd, Niall Quinn who played with Arsenal.

Not only had we players from the top four or five clubs in England, but we had the best players from the top four or five teams in England.

No-one can seriously compare our players of the 1980's with the players we have today. I respect the players we have today and their hard work. But there are no Irish players playing with Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool and only one or two with Man Utd.

The fact is, English teams were more dominant of Europe in the late 70's and early 80's than they have been in the last 10 years. There have been only 3 European Cups won by English teams in the last 10 years. From 1977 to 1985, English teams won 7 European Cups.

[theworm2345]

Listen, we just haven’t got the players and anyone who argues that we have a squad brimming with world-class talent is just talking nonsense. It is not true. We have a single player who gets regular football with a traditional top-four English Premier League club – O’Shea. Who would any top-20 team in the world take from us? Apart from Shay Given, who else? Robbie Keane, possibly, when he’s in his best form, but beyond that? No one.
Surely thats harsh on Dunne

[Stuttgart88]

Not only had we players from the top four or five clubs in England, but we had the best players from the top four or five teams in England.

No-one can seriously compare our players of the 1980's with the players we have today. I respect the players we have today and their hard work. But there are no Irish players playing with Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool and only one or two with Man Utd.

The fact is, English teams were more dominant of Europe in the late 70's and early 80's than they have been in the last 10 years. There have been only 3 European Cups won by English teams in the last 10 years. From 1977 to 1985, English teams won 7 European Cups.Back in the 80s the top 4 or 5 teams in England were populated by the best players from Britain & Ireland, with the occasional continental player. Now they're populated by players from all over the world. If the same climate prevailed back then it'd be interesting to see which Irish would have been in a top 4 team. The chances of a Ray Houghton joinging Liverpool from the equivalent of Oxford for example would never happen today.

Putting it back the other way, I think Given, O'Shea, Dunne and Keane would be top 4 players in the 80s.

I really only think that it's in central midfield and left back that we're so desperately lacking in the quality we had "back in the day". In other positions it's marginal. McGeady, Duff (of current status) etc. would have been challenging for places in the 80s / early 90s, if not being definites. Kevin Doyle would have had a great shout over a Mickey Walsh, Michael Robinson, David Kelly, Bernie Slaven, Owen Coyle, old Frank or Tommy Coyne

With regard to England's dominance of Europe, I think they're as dominant now but without winning it as often. The top 4 routinely make the last 8, and 3 out of 4 make the semi's, often having knocked another English team out along the way.

[Stuttgart88]

The positives from both Italian games are, we really could have beaten the Italians in Bari, thinking of the chance Noel Hunt had. And we really should have beaten the Italians in Croke Park, if it wasn't for some soft goals and basic defensive mistakes.

Those people who say Trapattoni doesn't trust his players to express themselves are probably right. John O'Shea expressed himself by straying up the field. Shay Given wanted to go up for a corner kick. The system fell apart after scoring the second goal and Ireland lost their shape. Some players you have to impose discipline on. They go 2 - 1 up against Italy and they think the Italians are mugs and easily beaten, a basic lack of experience.Absolutely. I couldn't believe it when I read Shay wanted to go up for a corner. Madness!

We should have done what we did against South Africa, set up 2 banks of 4 and let them play it sideways to no effect.

[Kingdom]

Why the negative view of Lawrenson (i.e. tosser). I like the guy. Paid by the BBC so he has to take an Englaish slant on things for their games.

What he says in the article is common sense apart from those who make a living from slating Irish managers (whoever they are).

I think he dumbs himself down too often. He's obviously an intelligent chap, as he tends to pull a superb article out every now and then, but in the main I feel he's over reliant on the double-entendre' or the cheap quip.

When he just focuses on proper detailed analysis he can be excellent. My liking of Benetiz could be clouding my judgement on Lawrenson too though, I'll admit that :)

[lionelhutz]

I agree, i did read Pat Dolans article this morning and i taught it was the poorest piece of journalism i've read, he seems to be obseessed with the money Trap is getting, the article makes no sense. A 'casino defender', what does that even mean?

I think he's referring to when Grosso shaped to cross at the dead ball line, Lawrence slid in naively and Grosso strolled past him setting up a simple chance which the Italians failed to convert. I don't rate Dolan as a pundit at all but I do think Lawrence can make some naive mistakes.

Also, someone above said O'Shea was the only player on the current Irish team to win the European Cup. Thats wrong - Finnan also won it in 2005 with Liverpool.

[dr_peepee]

Absolutely. I couldn't believe it when I read Shay wanted to go up for a corner. Madness!

We should have done what we did against South Africa, set up 2 banks of 4 and let them play it sideways to no effect.

Exactly.. But I do think saturdays finale could be a blessing in disguise going into the play offs. Odds are that even had we won we would have wound up in thew play offs regardless. But without the vital lesson you cited above.

[DeLorean]

Also, someone above said O'Shea was the only player on the current Irish team to win the European Cup. Thats wrong - Finnan also won it in 2005 with Liverpool.

If we ever see Finnan again. O'Shea didn't kick a ball in the 120mins final when United won it. Finnan came off at half time with Liverpool 3-0 down. Hardly glory nights on a personal level for either player. Not really the point I know.

[blobbyblob]

BREAKING NEWS :

Lawrenson gains almost unanimous consensus on Foot.ie shock

[DeLorean]

BREAKING NEWS :

Lawrenson gains almost unanimous consensus on Foot.ie shock

I'd like to take responsibility for the almost. I think he's a clown and would prefer to listen to anybody else. I admit I don't read his articles, other than his predictions on BBC, which are generally pretty poor.

[blobbyblob]

I knew I could draw one out of the wood work.

[Eh Weh]

i am one of those who doesnt feel we are getting the best out of the team! the problem is that as long as Trappatoni is in charge, we are not going to find out what exactly this team are or are not capable of! If we dont qualify, will all the people here supporting him, not be wondering about the alternatives? Talking about getting the best from your players! McCarthy i would say 100% did get the best out of the players, I cannot say I feel the same way for sure about Trap! Then again, if you had Keane in that centre mid at his prime, im quite sure we could have won the group!

[Emmet7]

Eh Weh, that's a fair point.

But you agree we have almost exactly the same players we had under Kerr and Stauntan?

Kerr also had Roy Keane, Finnan, Carsley (at his peak) at his disposal.

Stauntan had Andy Reid and Stephen Ireland.

So both those managers had a lot of good players available and they couldn't achieve a play off place.

A lot of the Irish team are now in the twilight of their career, or the wrong side of 30. Duff, Kilbane, Dunne, etc.

It's also been a rebuilding period for Trap and he has achieved that remarkably well. St. Ledger, Folan, Best, Hunt, Whelan and a few others have become genuine long term options for Ireland.

For a manager in his first qualifying campaign, he's done pretty good. With international teams, the improvement is usually gradual. ie, It takes years to improve a team, because remember Trap only gets to see the players a couple times a year. Club managers get to see them day in day out.

[SuperDave]

i am one of those who doesnt feel we are getting the best out of the team! the problem is that as long as Trappatoni is in charge, we are not going to find out what exactly this team are or are not capable of! If we dont qualify, will all the people here supporting him, not be wondering about the alternatives? Talking about getting the best from your players! McCarthy i would say 100% did get the best out of the players, I cannot say I feel the same way for sure about Trap! Then again, if you had Keane in that centre mid at his prime, im quite sure we could have won the group!

McCarthy got the best out his players in Japan, without Roy Keane?

In those defeats to Russia and Switzerland?

Away to Macedonia?

Let's stop the revisionist bull****. If you want pretty football, watch West Brom. If you want results, watch Trap.

[Eh Weh]

superdave, there will always be expecptions in matches, and those that you mentioned are valid and I have not forgotten them! but take a case in point, the world cup 2002 qualifying campaign, that has to be the most impressive ever qualifying campaigns of ours to date! Atleast we are slowly working our way back up the rankings and hopefully will be seeded in Pot 2 for the European Cup campaign.

[Emmet7]

Let's stop the revisionist bull****. If you want pretty football, watch West Brom. If you want results, watch Trap.

Spot on about the revisionism. It's grown to monstrous proportions among certain commentators and fans.

Some people seem to be nostaligic for the Stauntan and Kerr eras. Some older people are even nostalgic for the 1970's era which they perceive as the golden age of Irish soccer, largely because they played in it.

Up until the arrival of Jack Charlton, we were the laughing stock of European football. We were the whipping boys, if anyone can remember back then.

The Eoin Hand era ended with a 4-1 thrashing by Denmark in Lanesdowne Road.

We had some of the best players in the world, and yet as an international team we ranked up there with Luxembourg, and similar countries.

With Charlton and McCarthy we became a world force. Under Kerr and Stauntan we retreated to a laughing stock.

People need to get real about the past. And also about the pool of talent we choose from. There are only about a 100 Irish professional soccer players in England. There are thousands for England to choose from.

[jmurphyc]

superdave, there will always be expecptions in matches, and those that you mentioned are valid and I have not forgotten them! but take a case in point, the world cup 2002 qualifying campaign, that has to be the most impressive ever qualifying campaigns of ours to date! Atleast we are slowly working our way back up the rankings and hopefully will be seeded in Pot 2 for the European Cup campaign.

Yet that came in McCarthy's third campaign. The results in the first two were mediocre, mainly due to him needing to rebuild the team. This is exactly what Trap has done so far, bringing in a host of new players. Plus, he hasn't brought them all in at once, instead bringing in only one or two new ones every now and then, ensuring a relative fluidity in selection.

Furthermore, McCarthy had some fantastic young players at his disposal; the likes of Keane, Duff, Given and others. Trap doesn't have that kind of talent coming through. I think all of this suggests that Trap is doing a fine job, and comparisons with McCarthy should be favourable.

[seanfhear]

Spot on about the revisionism. It's grown to monstrous proportions among certain commentators and fans.

Some people seem to be nostaligic for the Stauntan and Kerr eras. Some older people are even nostalgic for the 1970's era which they perceive as the golden age of Irish soccer, largely because they played in it.

Up until the arrival of Jack Charlton, we were the laughing stock of European football. We were the whipping boys, if anyone can remember back then.

The Eoin Hand era ended with a 4-1 thrashing by Denmark in Lanesdowne Road.

We had some of the best players in the world, and yet as an international team we ranked up there with Luxembourg, and similar countries.

With Charlton and McCarthy we became a world force. Under Kerr and Stauntan we retreated to a laughing stock.

People need to get real about the past. And also about the pool of talent we choose from. There are only about a 100 Irish professional soccer players in England. There are thousands for England to choose from.
Hand managed one good campaign. He was unlucky not to qualify.
It was a long time ago so I cannot remember everything. He had some very good players a lot of which really produced the goods for Jack albeit with a more direct style of football.

[Stuttgart88]

Some older people are even nostalgic for the 1970's era which they perceive as the golden age of Irish soccerAt least we had a decent crest back then :)

[Emmet7]

Hand managed one good campaign. He was unlucky not to qualify.
It was a long time ago so I cannot remember everything. He had some very good players a lot of which really produced the goods for Jack albeit with a more direct style of football.

The bit I remember is the Danes giving us a thumping in front of a handful of supporters in Landsdowne Rd. 15,000 or thereabouts was the attendance.

Compare that with the 70-80,000 we now can get. Even in Charlton's time, we could get a full house for an Irish game. Ah but Irish soccer started to go into decline with the arrival of Charlton according to some.

The football purists would rather see us lose badly as in the 1970's and 80's but play nice football, than win well by another method.

[elroy]

i am one of those who doesnt feel we are getting the best out of the team! the problem is that as long as Trappatoni is in charge, we are not going to find out what exactly this team are or are not capable of! If we dont qualify, will all the people here supporting him, not be wondering about the alternatives? Talking about getting the best from your players! McCarthy i would say 100% did get the best out of the players, I cannot say I feel the same way for sure about Trap! Then again, if you had Keane in that centre mid at his prime, im quite sure we could have won the group!

People say the same about the Charlton and McCarthy eras, that we didnt achieve as much as we could etc. I disagree in the main. But particularly now. This team was heading to the international abyss towards the end of the last campaign,shot of confidence and losing touch with the general public. We were down in the 3rd seeds and heading further down. Now we have a team, with average players but with a clear sense of purpose that has been evident since the Norway friendly. You might not like how we play but its effective and works and seems to be able to adapt to whatever circumstances are placed in front of us. The fact that Trap and co have another few years in charge is wonderful imo, even if we dont make the WC. There is a general buzz about the Irish team again that has been there since 2002.