View Full Version : Wales' qualifying campaign
People over here are divided on whether John Toshack should go or not after this campaign. Most people, myself included, think we should have done better than we have, but some argue we're only doing as well as we can expect to do for a nation of our size and current squad strength. After the 2-1 loss to Finland yesterday the debate has really heated up. I decided to post this here to get some hopefully impartial views on this debate. Many of you probably don't know much about our squad but I know that there are some out there who will be able to offer some informed opinions. Quality over quantity of posts would be appreciated here.
Here's the group table and our results to date:
P W D L Pts
Germany 9 8 1 0 25
Russia 9 7 0 2 21
Finland 9 5 2 2 17
Wales 9 3 0 6 9
Azerbaijan 9 1 1 7 4
Liechtenstein 9 0 2 7 2
Results:
Wales 1-0 Azerbaijan
Russia 2-1 Wales
Germany 1-0 Wales
Wales 2-0 Liechtenstein
Wales 0-2 Finland
Wales 0-2 Germany
Azerbaijan 0-1 Wales
Wales 1-3 Russia
Finland 2-1 Wales
Liechtenstein v Wales (Wed 14 Oct)
Is this an acceptable level of performance, or are we underachieving?
Noelys Guitar
11/10/2009, 5:17 PM
Hi Cymro. You definetely should be doing better. And I never buy into the small nation bit. I watched your two away games to Russia and Germany and especially against Russia thought Wales weer the better team. You have one of the outstanding forwards around anywhere in Bellamy. Collins is playing well for Villa. And you have enough good players (Ramsey, Vaughan)in your squad to be pushing for 2nd place finishes. I expected Wales to push Russia all the way for second place and I would be looking to bring in a better manager at this stage. If Trap was manager of Wales would you have done a lot better? I think so. It might be time for the Welsh FA to follow the example of the FAI and bring in a "foreign" manager with a proven record.
PartySaint
11/10/2009, 5:47 PM
Realistically Wales had no chance of being anywhere near Germany or Russia but i think they should be pushing Finland alot closer for third spot, It all adds up in the end, if they had of finished third in this campaign they would have been in pot 3 in the next qualifying campaign and then they might have got a good draw and you never know what can happen then, so i say it was a poor campaign for them
Closed Account 2
11/10/2009, 6:46 PM
Is this an acceptable level of performance, or are we underachieving?
The group is harder than it looks. Lichtenstein are the only very poor team in it. Azeri football has had a lot of government investment of late (you can see this with the clubs getting a bit further in CL and Uefa qualification esp this year) and they have also started looking for 2nd generation Azeri's and ethnic Russians and Ukrainians who left Baku (one of the most mixed cities in the Soviet Union the 1980s) when the USSR fell apart and signed them up for the Azeri team. They have / had 2-3 Brazilian born players playing for them a while ago.
I think you've drastically underperformed against the Finns, as I recall both matches were lost. This is dissapointing as man for man their squad is probably slightly weaker than yours. I saw all of the game in Russia last year and bits of the one in Cardiff and I thought the performance out in Russia was very creditable, I think - aside from Germany - you pushed the Russians the hardest in the head to head ties. The Finns collapsed against Russia, but actually snatched a draw in Helsinki against the Germans.
It seems like the fixtures ran against you with a lot of the hard ones happening early on, and then after the home defeat to the Finns you seemed to give up. I guess with Toshack it's a question of does his experience and desire bring more value than the problems he has (or seems to) with senior players. There must be something a bit strange going on with the likes of Koumas and now apparently Bellamy quitting. I would be tempted to keep Toshack simply because he's a reasonable manager, who has a good knowledge of the world game - at least he will be prepared in terms of knowledge of the opposition. If he was to go, who could you bring in ? I dont think the Welsh FA has a huge amount of money, so most of the decent candidates would have to be Welsh or tied to Wales by sentiment... maybe Dean Saunders ?
shakermaker1982
12/10/2009, 12:11 PM
I think Wales should have been much closer to Finland in terms of overall points tally but your results elsewhere look 'decent' bar the Finland home game. You weren't really outclassed in any fixture and by all accounts held your own against two of the best teams in Europe.
Has Koumas retired?
Bellamy is a top player and Ramsey is a prospect but other than Collin's at centre back there are no established PL performers. Gunter is a good young full back and Bale was supposed to be the next best thing...... but Wales seem to lack top flight experience. Somebody like Robbie Savage (I'm assuming he has retired or fell out with the Tosh?) sitting in midfield would help the younger fellas.
Thanks for your replies.
edmundo - To be honest both times we played Azerbaijan I thought they were pretty poor. The game out in Baku was awkward, but that was more because the ball spent so much time at head and shoulder height that we couldn't get it down and actually play. No doubt they're not the worst team in Europe but home and away wins is about what I'd expect from them myself.
I agree about the performances in some games such as Russia home and away, and Germany away - I thought we competed well. But as you say, we've underperformed against the Finns. We should have been able to beat them or at least battle to a draw on Saturday I felt, but just seemed to completely fade away in the second half. Even though Toshack had a lot of injury problems for the game, we still had a first XI of 6 Premiership players (4 regulars) and 5 Championship regulars. Not a good enough effort, unfortuantely.
I haven't generally believed the story that Toshack is somehow driving players towards international retirement, but it does seem that we are losing a lot of players, Koumas as you say has retired, and although I can't find any evidence for Bellamy quitting, if he did that would be utterly awful. Even if he's not directly at fault, I still feel a change of manager might bring some players back into the fold, because some players no doubt have been disillusioned by recent results. Other than that, I feel Toshack has been a little weak tactically in this campaign, particularly in the two Finnish games where they turned it around in the second half both times.
As for who we would go for, a lot of people are saying Brian Flynn because he has a superb record coaching the under-21s who nearly qualified for the last under-21 championships (losing 5-4 to England in the play-offs) and are now top of their current group by a fair margin. Other options might be Chris Coleman or maybe Tony Pulis, although I'm not certain if Pulis would quit Stoke to manage us. A foreigner is unlikely given the FAW's near-perfect record of appointing Welsh managers, but after watching what Trappatoni has done for you guys might be a good bet.
Lionel Ritchie
12/10/2009, 2:44 PM
Been alluded to in a couple of posts Cymru but likelwise I think the difference between this campaign being good or bad for Wales is the Finland results. Turn those into wins and Wales have a more commendable 15 to Finlands 11.
I don't believe in change for change sake either so I'd hold onto Tosh for another campaign. I know he's had fallings out with Savage and probably Koumas -but who hasn't?
DeLorean
12/10/2009, 3:26 PM
Although Toshack's CV is relatively impressive, though not a huge amount of trophies, my overriding memory of him is his punditry for TV3. He clearly knew a bit more about the obscure names in World Football but I found his analysis absolute nonsense. I don't think he could be doing a whole pile worse as Wales coach so I'd be inclined to get rid of him as things could surely only improve.
Although Toshack's CV is relatively impressive, though not a huge amount of trophies, my overriding memory of him is his punditry for TV3. He clearly knew a bit more about the obscure names in World Football but I found his analysis absolute nonsense. I don't think he could be doing a whole pile worse as Wales coach so I'd be inclined to get rid of him as things could surely only improve.
Who would you bring in that would do a better job based on what's available to them?
Been alluded to in a couple of posts Cymru but likelwise I think the difference between this campaign being good or bad for Wales is the Finland results. Turn those into wins and Wales have a more commendable 15 to Finlands 11.
Granted, but we didn't deserve to win either game against Finland, which is the main reason why many think Toshack should now go. Beating Azerbaijan and Liechtenstein home and away is more or less expected for us, as is losing home and away to Germany and Russia. The whole campaign was about whether we could be competitive and get results against teams around our level with the current management, and we haven't. I wouldn't say it's change for change's sake, I think a change is needed.
DeLorean
12/10/2009, 4:46 PM
Who would you bring in that would do a better job based on what's available to them?
Don't really know who they're capable of attracting but they'd only have to turn up to equal Toshack's achievements. Who would have thought we'd land Trap? Toshack has almost 3 full campaigns now with Wales and with the exception of their amazing win in Slovakia, I think I'd struggle to name another really impressive scoreline, open to correction of course. Wales had only just missed out of qualification the campaign before he took charge, granted their selection was a bit better that time.
Don't really know who they're capable of attracting but they'd only have to turn up to equal Toshack's achievements. Who would have thought we'd land Trap? Toshack has almost 3 full campaigns now with Wales and with the exception of their amazing win in Slovakia, I think I'd struggle to name another really impressive scoreline, open to correction of course. Wales had only just missed out of qualification the campaign before he took charge, granted their selection was a bit better that time.
So you don't know who could come in and improve things fair enough that's all i asked. Thanks.
DeLorean
13/10/2009, 9:04 AM
So you don't know who could come in and improve things fair enough that's all i asked. Thanks.
I know plenty of people that could come in an improve things but don't know if Wales could get them. You're welcome.
I know plenty of people that could come in an improve things but don't know if Wales could get them. You're welcome.
Go on name them i dare you;)
DeLorean
13/10/2009, 9:33 AM
I could give you a list of top class managers but I don't know what's available to them, making your original question impossible to answer accurately by the way. Give me the list of what's available to them and I'll select who I like off it. All I know is Toshack is there since 2004, has done a crap job in my opinion, so give somebody else a chance. I think Chris Coleman would be a good choice but he's would probably see himself as being too young for International Management and would prefer day-to-day, I could be wrong though.
I could give you a list of top class managers but I don't know what's available to them, making your original question impossible to answer accurately by the way. Give me the list of what's available to them and I'll select who I like off it. All I know is Toshack is there since 2004, has done a crap job in my opinion, so give somebody else a chance. I think Chris Coleman would be a good choice but he's would probably see himself as being too young for International Management and would prefer day-to-day, I could be wrong though.
Wales haven't got the players at the moment in simple terms. Any time they came close to qualifying they had a good squad of players. The current manager may not be doing well but at least he's having a go at it. Loads of managers out there who wouldn't have the b*lls to take it on for fear of failure.
DeLorean
13/10/2009, 10:05 AM
Wales haven't got the players at the moment in simple terms. Any time they came close to qualifying they had a good squad of players. The current manager may not be doing well but at least he's having a go at it. Loads of managers out there who wouldn't have the b*lls to take it on for fear of failure.
Every manager is every job is having a go at it, hardly a good enough reason to keep him. I agree they don't have the players but they are 8pts behind Finland, I don't think that's good enough in simple terms!!
Every manager is every job is having a go at it, hardly a good enough reason to keep him. I agree they don't have the players but they are 8pts behind Finland, I don't think that's good enough in simple terms!!
Sorry i meant how many put themselves forward for the Wales job when it's available. Think Joe Royle did last time;) Tells a lot.
DeLorean
13/10/2009, 10:37 AM
Quality over quantity of posts would be appreciated here.
Oops!! sorry, Rafa started it though:o
Oops!! sorry, Rafa started it though:o
Started what? Gave an opinion that didn't agree with yours. Oops can't be doing that:) Not!
DeLorean
13/10/2009, 11:08 AM
Started what? Gave an opinion that didn't agree with yours. Oops can't be doing that:) Not!
Lighten up man. Pretty obvious your defence of Toshack is related to his club history anyway, like every other opinion you give on foot.ie.
Lighten up man. Pretty obvious your defence of Toshack is related to his club history anyway, like every other opinion you give on foot.ie.
I defend my club only when i feel the need to. You obviously don't read my posts properly. Anyway going off topic. I asked who could do a better job than Toshack nothing more. You decided to bring it down another road not me. Anyway i am entitled to my opinion. Not my problem it grinds your gears:)
Oops!! sorry, Rafa started it though:o
That's OK, the admins can delete inane banter such as this easily. :D
Rafa B - If you mean we don't have the players to qualify for a major tournament (at least in a group containing Germany and Russia) then I am with you. If however you mean we aren't good enough to take at least one point from two games each against either Germany, Russia, or Finland, then I disagree. The players we have now are actually in my view fairly good, if still a bit inexperienced.
Gather round
13/10/2009, 6:03 PM
Iechydd da.
Up here, Worthington is set to agree a third series in charge (I know he only got half of Euro 08, but that was six matches). Like a lot of fans I accept that but without any great enthusiasm. NW and his assistant/ youth manager Beaglehole have brought through plenty of youngsters to the fringe of the senior squad, and the U-21s have generally played pretty well. Today's reverse against Iceland notwithstanding.
But you can't rely on future promise indefinitely and Tosh doesn't seem to have much fan support. After six years it's time for a change- how about Flynn?
Lionel Ritchie
13/10/2009, 7:12 PM
I think Chris Coleman would be a good choice but he's would probably see himself as being too young for International Management and would prefer day-to-day, I could be wrong though.
I dunno what Coleman is getting for his Coventry gig but I'll wager he'd have to be nuts to quit a championship club to manage Wales or even a considerably bigger/better-prospects-at-a-glance international side.
Since Mick McCarthys time the Ireland job has probably been one of the better paid international jobs and it still took an iminent sacking by Millwall to entice him.
Alex McLeish' paypacket reputedly jumped 2000% (no typo: I said Two THOUSAND percent) when he swapped Scotland for then Championship Birmingham City.
Whoever's to replace Tosh has a hatch number at the moment.
DeLorean
13/10/2009, 7:19 PM
I dunno what Coleman is getting for his Coventry gig but I'll wager he'd have to be nuts to quit a championship club to manage Wales or even a considerably bigger/better-prospects-at-a-glance international side
You're probably right, but I had to mention some name cos Rafa was breakin my balls!!:D
Noelys Guitar
13/10/2009, 10:06 PM
You need to find a Dennis O'Brien (who allegedly pays half or possibly more of Trap's wages plus assistants)Cymro. And then for the WFA to acept outside help in the funding of a top class manager. Australia, Russia and ourselves have gone down this route and it works. There are some very rich Welsh people around the world so if the WFA go seeking outside donors you never know who you could get as manager.
Lionel Ritchie
13/10/2009, 10:30 PM
There are some very rich Welsh people around the world . That's a miserable filthy lie! There are not. :D
osarusan
13/10/2009, 10:49 PM
I asked who could do a better job than Toshack nothing more.
Guus Hiddink could do a better job than Toshack.
WexCar
14/10/2009, 4:33 AM
In all fairness I think it would be a good gig for Brian Kerr to take up should Wales decide to change managers.
That's OK, the admins can delete inane banter such as this easily. :D
Delorean won't like his inane banter being deleted:D:D
Rafa B - If you mean we don't have the players to qualify for a major tournament (at least in a group containing Germany and Russia) then I am with you.
.
Yes that's what i meant.
You're probably right, but I had to mention some name cos Rafa was breakin my balls!!:D
:eek: You said it not me but fair play we got a name out of you in the end:p
Toshack is reputed to be on around £250,000 per year. Read that on www.dragonsoccer.co.uk so I am not certain of its accuracy. But if true we would probably be paying around the going rate for Championship teams. If not, we could always promote Flynn. Finance is an issue but the FAW could, I'm sure, stump up the funds to finance a new manager if necessary.
Interesting to hear Brian Kerr's name mentioned. I thought he did pretty well when in charge of Ireland, although he didn't take you to a major finals in that time you were by all accounts unlucky in a couple of games against Israel. In any case, we'd take respectable third place campaigns at the moment and he might fancy it, seeing it as a step up from his current job with the Faroe Islands. I would probably ask the more obvious candidates first (Flynn, Pulis, Coleman) but if none of those were interested (quite possible) then Kerr might not be a bad choice.
Lionel Ritchie
14/10/2009, 5:32 PM
I'd love to see Brian get the Wales job and would not like to be drawn against him/ye if he did.
Also -If Tosh is on 250K then he's likely on better money than his Scottish and NI counterparts for starters.
Closed Account 2
14/10/2009, 5:48 PM
Does the FAW generate money from the Millenium Stadium ? Is it owned by them or the local government ? They must have had some cash left over from all the FA Cup finals, Rugby matches and they could bid for a Uefa final there... I think £250,000 would be a lower-mid Championship salary. Toshack would get more if he moved to a club like Reading. There is little point in doing much until the draw for Euro 2012, if it looks like a difficult draw might be best to stick with him as he does seem to bring in the youngsters. If you have a chance then it might be worth getting rid of Tosh and paying a bit more for an experienced continental manager if they would be willing to take the job.
irishultra
14/10/2009, 7:03 PM
Wales has a few decent clubs with presumably good academies, they should be ok, on the other hand the future looks bleak for Ireland.
Does the FAW generate money from the Millenium Stadium ? Is it owned by them or the local government ? They must have had some cash left over from all the FA Cup finals, Rugby matches and they could bid for a Uefa final there... I think £250,000 would be a lower-mid Championship salary. Toshack would get more if he moved to a club like Reading. There is little point in doing much until the draw for Euro 2012, if it looks like a difficult draw might be best to stick with him as he does seem to bring in the youngsters. If you have a chance then it might be worth getting rid of Tosh and paying a bit more for an experienced continental manager if they would be willing to take the job.
I think the WRU owns the Millenium Stadium. Here's from wiki:
The Millennium Stadium is owned by Millennium Stadium plc which is a subsidiary company of the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU).[5]
Personally, I'd argue that if we are going to sack Tosh, we should do it now to give the new guy some friendlies to experiment a bit with systems and such. We have a game against Scotland next month and one in March 2010 too (opponents tbc), I don't know when the draw is made but obviously we want to maximise our room for manouvre.
Closed Account 2
14/10/2009, 9:06 PM
"the qualifying draw will be held in Poland on 7 February 2010"
http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=64/newsid=796459.html
Gather round
14/10/2009, 11:30 PM
I'd love to see Brian get the Wales job and would not like to be drawn against him/ye if he did.
Also -If Tosh is on 250K then he's likely on better money than his Scottish and NI counterparts for starters
I think Worthington's on about 150k.
WexCar
15/10/2009, 3:08 AM
Does the FAW generate money from the Millenium Stadium ?
Out of interest what kind of attendance do Wales get for qualifiers?
DeLorean
15/10/2009, 12:27 PM
Personally, I'd argue that if we are going to sack Tosh, we should do it now to give the new guy some friendlies to experiment a bit with systems and such
Without a doubt. No point in hanging on to him til ye see the draw, it's gonna be tough no matter what.
Out of interest what kind of attendance do Wales get for qualifiers?
Azerbaijan 17,106
Leichtenstein 13,356
Finland 22,604
Germany 26,064
Russia 14,505
Shocking stuff really.
Gather round
15/10/2009, 1:39 PM
Shocking stuff really
Obviously crowds have fallen since the excitement of Euro 04 qualifying, but 22-26,000 would be (close to) a sellout at Swansea or Cardiff's club grounds.
Czechia and Poland both got less than 5,000 last night (we took 2,200 to Prague).
Obviously crowds have fallen since the excitement of Euro 04 qualifying, but 22-26,000 would be (close to) a sellout at Swansea or Cardiff's club grounds.
Czechia and Poland both got less than 5,000 last night (we took 2,200 to Prague).
Spot on mate. Both grounds create great atmospheres when full.
DeLorean
15/10/2009, 3:06 PM
Maybe if the Russian and German matches were at the start and not when they were already knocked out the attendances would havce been much higher.
From the next campaign on we are going to play matches in the new Cardiff Stadium. Obviously as a Jack I would like to see them played at the Liberty instead but both would create a better atmosphere than the millenium Stadium does at the moment. Plus, the Cardiff stadium is really a nice ground (says Cymro through gritted teeth). :o
We are also due to play the Scotland friendly there and I would be surprised if it wasn't a sell-out. Regardless of our disappointing campaign, we have a good rivalry and Scotland will bring plenty of fans down too I'm sure.
Lionel Ritchie
15/10/2009, 7:04 PM
I think Worthington's on about 150k.
That's exactly what I heard he was on GR. McLeish was on 200K with Scotland. Stan was on at least 400K. :o
:D
Closed Account 2
15/10/2009, 8:14 PM
Obviously crowds have fallen since the excitement of Euro 04 qualifying, but 22-26,000 would be (close to) a sellout at Swansea or Cardiff's club grounds.
Czechia and Poland both got less than 5,000 last night (we took 2,200 to Prague).
I think the Poles may have organised a boycott of the national team last night. I know there was talk of a protest against the PZPN over the fallout from Beenhaker and his replacement (lack of) and there was talk of a protest 2-3 weeks ago.
Gather round
15/10/2009, 8:33 PM
I think the Poles may have organised a boycott of the national team last night. I know there was talk of a protest against the PZPN over the fallout from Beenhaker and his replacement (lack of) and there was talk of a protest 2-3 weeks ago
Aye, the Polish fans in Britain mentioned it on their site. I think the Czechs just couldn't be arsed.
Stuttgart88
16/10/2009, 1:07 PM
Is Roy Evans in Toshack's coaching team? Could he be a candidate?Apols if he's already been mentioned.
I think Wales are a mixed bag. Some really good players and some up and comings, but also some journeymen. It's hard to be too critical especially with players like Koumas (I think he'd walk into the Ireland midfield) unavailable and so many injuries during the campaign. That said, I've always felt Toshack could be getting more from them. Perish the thought, but Wales remind me a bit of Stan's Ireland: a mix of good performances with really poor ones, the good coming at random (our friendly win in Denmark, Wales' in Slovakia...). There's no steeliness or streetwisesness to Wales.
Hennessy, despite the acclaims & his potential, doesn't inspire confidence in me for club or country.
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12010_5630716,00.html
According to this, he isn't going to be sacked and wouldn't have been even had we lost in Liechtenstein. :eek:
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