Bohs and the FAI

[SMorgan]

And does anybody seriously think that the FAI will deal with Bohs come the end of the season?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/fai-bail-out-bohs-1907499.html

[brianw82]

No.

The only comment I'd like to make is that I wasn't aware of the true extent of their cash flow problems earlier this season.

[Macy]

And some people will continue to excuse the FAI from the whole financial debacle that the league is in.

[baddebt]

if they help Bohs out , then surely they should have to help out the rest of the teams in trouble?????????????????????????
Good for the Goose....good for the gander and all that.

FAI ..are they FIFA in disguise (making up the rules as they go along)

[Ezeikial]

On the face of it there appears to be a contradiction in the FAI positions on providing operational assistance to clubs:



The FAI have stated on the record that they would resist in helping clubs pay day-to-day bills such as wages.
Internal Compliance Officer Padraig Smith insisted in an online Q&A last March that "the FAI has not and will not provide financial assistance to clubs to fund their operational costs".
An FAI official last night said: "We've given Bohemians an advance on guaranteed UEFA monies and this is standard European practice."
The official claimed that that other clubs had been given advances of money due for participation in Europe, but declined to name any.


But apart from the question of consistency of approach with all clubs, I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the FAI making an advance on guaranteed UEFA money or league prize money. As I recall, they advanced an element of league prize money to all clubs during the mid season break without any contentious issues arising.

The article is perhaps more revealing about the state of delusion and denial that exists with the Bohs board - an admitted crises about paying wages months ago, followed since by regular nonsensical statements about the 65% and full time budgets for 2010




Irish Independent 8 Aug
Some Bohemians members have expressed concern about the club's expenditure, but honorary secretary Gerry Conway yesterday asserted that they are "nowhere near" breaking the 65pc rule amid speculation that authorities in Abbotstown are closely monitoring the situation at Dalymount Park.
Conway confirmed that Bohs had been reminded of the sanctions that would imposed on any club breaching the Protocol but insisted that the Gypsies' fans have nothing to be worried about in that regard.
"Even if Pat [Fenlon] signed another five players we would still be within the 65pc," he said.


http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/gypsies-nowhere-near-breaching-fai-salary-rules-1449228.html



Irish Independent Friday September 25 2009

PAT Fenlon has insisted that his Bohemians side will retain a full-time professional set-up next season, despite the fact that the club is currently operating over the 65pc salary cap and has debts of more than €4.4m.
The Gypsies' boss also expressed confidence that he can hold on to the nucleus of his current squad, which is this season operating under a projected budget of roughly €1.6m.


http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fenlons-fulltime-pledge-for-bohs-fans-1896455.html





Irish Independent Thursday October 01 2009



Last week, Gypsies boss Pat Fenlon indicated that the money men at Dalymount Park have promised a budget which will maintain a full-time set-up next year.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/hoops-boss-rules-out--switch-to-fulltime-structure-1901093.html


The Bohs team and the small band of supporters is a credit to the club - the board is bumbling and bull****ting the club into the abyiss.

[L.T.F.C.]

if they help Bohs out , then surely they should have to help out the rest of the teams in trouble?????????????????????????
Good for the Goose....good for the gander and all that.


we both know, and the rest of us i'm sure, that will never happen.

[Mr A]

Didn't the FAI also advance Derry some of their UEFA money? I wouldn't have a problem with the FAI advancing guaranteed income like this, but the comments over accounting in the piece are disturbing.

One must also wonder, given the dire situation described in the article, how long the 100k would have tided Bohs over and how they're doing currently.

[pineapple stu]

The longer Bohs (and others) are kept afloat, the harder the eventual fall will be. At this stage, if they want to ruin their club, let them.

[bad mongo]

The longer Bohs (and others) are kept afloat, the harder the eventual fall will be. At this stage, if they want to ruin their club, let them.

The members were informed that an overdraft was needed from the bank to fulfil our fixtue with RB Salzburg. It was a sizeable six figure, whaetever the machinations involved that took place that led to us getting a loan off the FAI instead of a bank loan, I don't know . Thisbut is just an everyday tale in the hand to mouth existence of any LoI club given some extra spin in the context of this season's financial crises. Hopefuly the loan proves cost effective for the club.

[pineapple stu]

Getting a six-figure overdraft to fulfill one fixture is not an everyday tale in the LoI.

Such panic loans hardly ever prove cost effective. The noises coming out of Dalyer are Shelbourne-esque death throes.

[bad mongo]

Getting a six-figure overdraft to fulfill one fixture is not an everyday tale in the LoI.

Such panic loans hardly ever prove cost effective. The noises coming out of Dalyer are Shelbourne-esque death throes.

Panic loan is a bit much. No one is denying BFC is a walking corpse from a cashflow point of view, would you seriously have expected any club in this league to set aside over €100k contingency to pay expenses for CL participation at the start of the season?

[pineapple stu]

Lots of clubs have managed to play their European games without an advance. (I know Bohs aren't the first club to get an advance).

E100k expenses to travel to Austria for one game? If that's the case (E3k+ a person?), you need to look at your costs.

[Rovers Maniac]

Didn't the FAI also advance Derry some of their UEFA money? I wouldn't have a problem with the FAI advancing guaranteed income like this, but the comments over accounting in the piece are disturbing.

One must also wonder, given the dire situation described in the article, how long the 100k would have tided Bohs over and how they're doing currently.

To be honest i even remember Dodge coming on to our section and saying about if you drawn out in the arse end of nowhere the FAI will advance you your UEFA money as it is paid through them. Although to be fair he was talking about not in relation to using it to pay wages, so i suppose that's where the story is.

[blackholesun]

I dont have a problem with the FAI advancing a club money to help them cover their Euro travel bills etc, as the money to repay it is definately going to be coming in from UEFA.

"We've given Bohemians an advance on guaranteed UEFA monies and this is standard European practice."

That seems fair enough to me.

I was just more wondering about the timing / substance of this. Is the intention to damage the FAI or Bohs or is the whole thing just a cheap headline grabing story? Hard to know what to make of it!

But when the FAI are bending over backward to help the Gypos cover their wage bill, it does make a mockery of Fenlon's recent every one is out to get us rants.

bhs

[MariborKev]

I think we were advanced our UEFA money, or at least some part of it.

[pineapple stu]

Actually, the article is talking about a loan given in July? Thought it was given now for some reason. That's much less of a news story. Although I still can't imagine it cost E100k to get everyone to Austria for three days.

[bad mongo]

seems straightforward enough.
Bohs: Dear FAI, we have been drawn in Austria for the CL, it is costing us an arm and a leg to get there, accomm, hiring training facilities etc. We can't afford to cover this and the month's wages out of current expenditure. We could go and get a ridiculously expensive overdraft but if you lend us the money it will save us a few quid in interest and would be much appreciated. Yours in sport- BFC

Journalist: BFC can't pay their wages and the FAI are lending them the money.

easy enough to see there are two angles to what is a non-story.

And yes the seemingly excessive costs were queried by members, but were adequately explained and no one doubted the sums involved were reasonable.

[bonkers]

Actually, the article is talking about a loan given in July? Thought it was given now for some reason. That's much less of a news story. Although I still can't imagine it cost E100k to get everyone to Austria for three days.

the 100,000 was also to cover wages,it was money that was guaranteed to be paid back.

Mod edit - don't dismiss people's comments on the basis of the club they support.

(And try get some proper info on those clubs if you are going to comment on them).

[Mr A]

Pretty bonkers that your accounts state that your plan to stay solvent includes 'increasing European activities' and then not budgeting for actually having to travel to a single away leg in a relatively easily accessible country.

[Macy]

Whilst there may have been some extra costs with going to Austria, I would've thought that it would be sensible to make some contingency. For the costs to be so much above the norm of any other possible fixture that they meant wages couldn't be met seems a bit suspect to me.

[theneutral]

Is it clarified that they needed the money for travel expenses or as is stated in the initial article to pay wages etc?

I feel for the hard working genuine fans at Bohs, and theres plenty of them, they know there board has sold them down the river and can see what has gone on.

Its a shame really as it seems there is a massive chance that they will win the league on the pitch only to be stripped of it and relegated, assuming that is the FAI will follow precedent from the Shels fiasco.

Will teams in our leagues ever learn a lesson about chasing the dream at the very risk of a clubs survival!

I think the best way the FAI could manage this situation is to monitor each clubs 65% stats on a monthly basis and not giving them until the end of the season to fiddle there books! Penalties to be impelmented at the end of every month where a club has not complied!

E.G: If Bohs win the title they will factor in the prize money to contribute towards there 65% responsibilities, this is very wrong IMO and bordering on stupidity for a club to budget for league winning prize money!

When will all he negative publicity surrounding our league end, and for the most part, clubs are bringing it all on themselves!

[tiktok]

The first port of call for any club who hits financial difficulty while playing in Europe is to tap up the FAI for an advance on the UEFA Cash. A good few clubs have gone down this road successfully before, Cork City certainly have. It's completely different to the FAI handing over €100k of their own money, people should be questioning why something simple that happened months ago is only coming out now.

This goes on every year, the mock outrage is laughable.

[Roo69]

In theory and practice in this case, the FAI bailed Bohs out no matter which way you look at it. Bohs had no money to pay for an away match and the FAI gave them the money.

"Internal Compliance Officer Padraig Smith insisted in an online Q&A last March that "the FAI has not and will not provide financial assistance to clubs to fund their operational costs"."

Sure jesus in that case we should have went to them at the start of the season and asked them for a loan of €250k and told them it was for players and players wages and that we would pay them back at the end of the season when we won the league and cup.

[pineapple stu]

The difference here is that UEFA will pay the FAI the money at the end of the 2009/10 season, so there's no issue over Bohs repaying the money; they just won't get it at a later stage (in theory).

[bad mongo]

In theory and practice in this case, the FAI bailed Bohs out no matter which way you look at it. Bohs had no money to pay for an away match and the FAI gave them the money.

"Internal Compliance Officer Padraig Smith insisted in an online Q&A last March that "the FAI has not and will not provide financial assistance to clubs to fund their operational costs"."

Sure jesus in that case we should have went to them at the start of the season and asked them for a loan of €250k and told them it was for players and players wages and that we would pay them back at the end of the season when we won the league and cup.


You're wilfully misunderstanding the situation. BFC could have gone to the bank for an overdraft ,but went to the FAI for a cash advance instead-presumably as this was the cheaper and more sensible option. BFC could also have put onthe poor mouth and left the FAI in the ridiculous poisiton in UEFA's eyes that the champions of the league couldn't honour a champions league fixture. I would say it is a standard enough practice done by all clubs in this league or in fact in any business where a fianance dept. will resort to any trick in the book to drive best value for their organisation.

[Roo69]

You're wilfully misunderstanding the situation. BFC could have gone to the bank for an overdraft ,but went to the FAI for a cash advance instead-presumably as this was the cheaper and more sensible option. BFC could also have put onthe poor mouth and left the FAI in the ridiculous poisiton in UEFA's eyes that the champions of the league couldn't honour a champions league fixture. I would say it is a standard enough practice done by all clubs in this league or in fact in any business where a fianance dept. will resort to any trick in the book to drive best value for their organisation.

no i actually not... and the reason why i think that is because, could Bohs have really gone to the bank and asked for a further overdraft/loan ? With Bohs well documented financial trouble i don't think any bank manager would lend Bohs €100k. They would have agreed one at the start of the season that aloud for a certian amount but to go back and ask for a further 100k on top, just couldn't see any bank manager in their right mind giving Bohs that money on top of what they already owe.

If Bohs budget had of been done right at the start of the season then they would not have such a problem.

"will resort to any trick in the book to drive best value for their organisation." ya see in my mind that's called cheating, Really proves that clubs who are all spending within their means are the clubs struggling, well apart from Rovers but that's a whole different story and why they are having success at present.

[John83]

There being no risk to the FAI, I don't consider this much of a bail out.

Some of the quotes from the Bohs board look worryingly delusional though.

[osborne]

I think everybody is overlooking the real question this story raises:

Who leaked it to a journalist and why?

[A N Mouse]

I think everybody is overlooking the real question this story raises:

Who leaked it to a journalist and why?

Nail on head.

The article itself is a non story.

[tallaghtfornia]

There being no risk to the FAI, I don't consider this much of a bail out.

Some of the quotes from the Bohs board look worryingly delusional though.

Sorry John but asking for the money is a bail out regardless of risk and shows what sort of strife they are in. The Bohs fans that are out there and have long copped on to what the board have been up to must be so annoyed at this stage and that is the sad thing about this.

To be told they are well within the 65%, staying full time next year and looking to build their budget upon an increase in European competition is where the delusion you talk about sets in. They should be hoping for a license next year and even a team as that squad will all be gone come the end of the season.

The league need their big sides to be showing the way in all aspects and this can only be done through total transparency by everyone involved.

I dont ever want to go back to a Tony Maguire type fiasco at Rovers, Cork dont need this crap with Coughlan and Bohs dont need this board to continue to spend like they are awash with money. Before anyone starts with their 4% arguement with regards to Rovers we were in a very similar position to both Cork and Bohs and we fought tooth and nail to take the club, act honestly and move our club on in a positive, responsible way. I genuinely hope clubs in a bad position right now act quickly to save themselves or face oblivion and that will leave a lot of honest fans out there wondering, why??

[Schumi]

seems straightforward enough.
Bohs: Dear FAI, we have been drawn in Austria for the CL, it is costing us an arm and a leg to get there, accomm, hiring training facilities etc. We can't afford to cover this and the month's wages out of current expenditure. We could go and get a ridiculously expensive overdraft but if you lend us the money it will save us a few quid in interest and would be much appreciated. Yours in sport- BFC

Journalist: BFC can't pay their wages and the FAI are lending them the money.

easy enough to see there are two angles to what is a non-story.Seems spot on to me. Don't the FAI generally pay this money to clubs at the end of the season and get recouped by UEFA in May anyway? Surely there are enough real scandals that this doesn't need to be published.


I think the best way the FAI could manage this situation is to monitor each clubs 65% stats on a monthly basis and not giving them until the end of the season to fiddle there books! Penalties to be impelmented at the end of every month where a club has not complied!
They do check accounts at the end of every month and apply transfer bans if the club's projected spending for the year is over 65%. I don't think it's reasonable to punish clubs mid-season. Low crowds at the start of the season could leave a club in breach early in the season but with the chance to reduce spending in later months they could be under 65% and I don't see anything wrong with that.


If Bohs win the title they will factor in the prize money to contribute towards there 65% responsibilities, this is very wrong IMO and bordering on stupidity for a club to budget for league winning prize money!You're right here, prize money for the league and Europe (bar the minimum available) shouldn't be allowed to be included in budgets. Include it in the next year's figures maybe.

[SMorgan]

Nail on head.

The article itself is a non story.


It most certainly is a story. There is an issue to be addressed by the FAI despite most people's insistence that this story is old hat.

The granting of money by the FAI was always done under the guise that it was to assist with travel arrangement and hotel expenses associated with participation in Europe. The FAI's position was that club's would not get money to help pay wages. The e-mails prove that Bohs needed and used the advance to pay wages. That may or may not have been the case at other clubs, but this is the first time it’s been proved that the money has been used to pay wages. That’s the story and stop pretending that there is no issue to be addressed in this story.

[tallaghtfornia]

It most certainly is a story. There is an issue to be addressed by the FAI despite most people's insistence that this story is old hat.

The granting of money by the FAI was always done under the guise that it was to assist with travel arrangement and hotel expenses associated with participation in Europe. The FAI's position was that club's would not get money to help pay wages. The e-mails prove that Bohs needed and used the advance to pay wages. That may or may not have been the case at other clubs, but this is the first time it’s been proved that the money has been used to pay wages. That’s the story and stop pretending that there is no issue to be addressed in this story.

Very good point

[pineapple stu]

Good summary on the Rovers forum -


I think you are being a bit OTT on the FAI here. This is standard enough practice.

The interesting bits to this story are
- B*hs struggling with day to day cash flow and players wages
- Someone on or very close to the gypo board is leaking
- How obvious it was that one of them on the email expected that to have that money and be able to spend it
- How they were going to hide it in the accounts.

[Buile Shuibhne]

They do check accounts at the end of every month and apply transfer bans if the club's projected spending for the year is over 65%.
.


What use is that outside the transfer window of July.

[brianw82]

What use is that outside the transfer window of July.

Technically, they can sign free agents or non-league players at any time.

[pineapple stu]

You didn't have the money guaranteed coming to you in a few months though.

[Mr A]

Didn't the FAI advance some of this year's prize money to all premier clubs, or did I dream that?

[Schumi]

Doesnt this put the fai's and namely that plonker padraig smith previous comments about the fai not given any kind of donation to any club to shame or not??

Like 100k was 1/5 of the total debt we were in, if they had have given us the "advance" we could still have loi club in cobh quite possibly, anyways its all in the past and i understand the league cannot afford to lose a club like bohs!!
Didn't they offer to buy your ground and lease it back to you and get turned down?

[bonkers]

Sorry John but asking for the money is a bail out regardless of risk and shows what sort of strife they are in. The Bohs fans that are out there and have long copped on to what the board have been up to must be so annoyed at this stage and that is the sad thing about this.

To be told they are well within the 65%, staying full time next year and looking to build their budget upon an increase in European competition is where the delusion you talk about sets in. They should be hoping for a license next year and even a team as that squad will all be gone come the end of the season.

The league need their big sides to be showing the way in all aspects and this can only be done through total transparency by everyone involved.

I dont ever want to go back to a Tony Maguire type fiasco at Rovers, Cork dont need this crap with Coughlan and Bohs dont need this board to continue to spend like they are awash with money. Before anyone starts with their 4% arguement with regards to Rovers we were in a very similar position to both Cork and Bohs and we fought tooth and nail to take the club, act honestly and move our club on in a positive, responsible way. I genuinely hope clubs in a bad position right now act quickly to save themselves or face oblivion and that will leave a lot of honest fans out there wondering, why??

very good post,its disgraceful whats been going on at bohs,there were some right delusional people running the club.but recently shamrock rovers came into a few bob after real madrid and what did they do,sign a goakeeper they didnt need,30000 allegdly on a player from bray and washed up barrett.so i think all clubs have a few delusional people running them.there is very little forward planning in loi,its all about the present and some glory

[brianw82]

Didn't they offer to buy your ground and lease it back to you and get turned down?

No, Cobh offered that deal to the FAI. The FAI turned it down.

[MariborKev]

Didn't the FAI advance some of this year's prize money to all premier clubs, or did I dream that?

Aye, did all clubs not get a few grand

[John83]

No, Cobh offered that deal to the FAI. The FAI turned it down.
I seem to recall some faffing about from Cobh's end too. Anyone recall details?

[brianw82]

I seem to recall some faffing about from Cobh's end too. Anyone recall details?

One of the Ramblers fans probably knows more, but AFAIK that was the 'Friends of Cobh Ramblers' who were opposed to the deal. There seemed to be a lot of in-fighting going on in the club.

[CMcC]

Tell you what - there is as many people missing the point on this thread as there are sitters missed each weekend in the league.

Bellavista for heavens sake - please understand before posting.

S Morgan when giving out european monies are the FAI to look for receipts for every transaction adding up to the total mount? How feasible is that?

Pineapplestu's quote of Roverstillidie's post form their forum captures the key questions.

As osborne says, who leaked to a journo and why? Is there a power struggle at board level in Bohs. Has one director spit the dummy over finances. Or is the leak from the FAI side. If so why?

[Ezeikial]

I think everybody is overlooking the real question this story raises:

Who leaked it to a journalist and why?

Good question! Something that can only be speculated upon.

On the basis that 3 emails involved exchanges between an unnamed former board member and directors Robert Dunne and Chris Brien, it's fair to speculate that this mystery man is the most likely source of the disclosure. The quoted emails indicate that this person was a director at that time in July: "I imagined we would further discuss this when we met, as in what exactly the money was for". So who was a director in July who is not today?

Why leak it? Maybe pique, settling old scores, or maybe something more noble then that - perhaps a desire to stimulate a real change in the delusional and arrogant behviour and utterances coming from the Bohs boardroom.

I would not welcome the demise of a such a long-established and important club, but it is way beyond time that Bohs members and fans stopped accepting the nonsense that is consistently dished out by their board

[theneutral]

I would not welcome the demise of a such a long-established and important club, but it is way beyond time that Bohs members and fans stopped accepting the nonsense that is consistently dished out by their board

Well put mate, its almost as if some of the heads down there feel that because they are such a long established club and Dalymount was the original home of Irish Football that they are above any action.

Worse fools still are the idiots that are swallowing all of the crap they are being fed!

[HulaHoop]

very good post,its disgraceful whats been going on at bohs,there were some right delusional people running the club.but recently shamrock rovers came into a few bob after real madrid and what did they do,sign a goakeeper they didnt need,30000 allegdly on a player from bray and washed up barrett.so i think all clubs have a few delusional people running them.there is very little forward planning in loi,its all about the present and some glory

We signed players in the window because we could afford to increase the budget a bit. Even after these signings we are still only in the mid 50s percentage wise on the salary cost protocol. As for lack of forward planning and all about present glory I will direct you to this article in the paper from last week

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...e-1901093.html



Last week, Gypsies boss Pat Fenlon indicated that the money men at Dalymount Park have promised a budget which will maintain a full-time set-up next year.

However, Rovers will persist as they stand right now. At present, 30pc of their playing staff have jobs outside football, but O'Neill attributes that to the current economic climate rather than anything else.

The former Northern Ireland international -- a qualified financial advisor, who worked with Ernst & Young and started his own mortgage company in between the end of his playing career and entering management -- insists that his current employers have to be patient rather than making a jump too quickly.

"I don't believe it's sustainable (full- time) in this current climate," he says. "People will argue that essentially we are full-time. I can assure you we are not. We're going training at 5.30pm (last night) so we have to focus on the lads who are at work, to get them out early.

"At this moment in time, I'm not convinced the clubs can commit to full-time football in my view of what full-time football is, having experienced it in England and Scotland.

Analysis

"We have the players together essentially from about 5.0 to 7.30 every day. Full-time football for me would be having the players in at 9.30 and in until 3.30 or 4.0 on certain days. Now, we have very little time to do video analysis, all of those things you would do if you were in a full-time structure.

"I think the model we have here is the model which suits the league at this minute in time. Going full-time for a year and continually being under threat financially isn't really going full-time to be honest. It has to be done with a realistic five- to 10-year plan which you know is sustainable."

Rovers chairman Jonathan Roche is singing off the same hymn sheet. With their current operation, the Hoops have an annual turnover which he estimates to be in the region of €1.3m with a 10pc increase expected in 2010.

"I think it would have to be a long-term thing," he says of professionalism. "I think we'd be mad to jump into a full-time situation next year.

"We'd have to plan properly to make sure that the football club would get the full benefit of having a full-time squad and everything that comes from that. We'd be of the same mind that we build and we review the structure of the football club on an ongoing basis, so we can change that if circumstances change. But at the moment we're quite happy with where we're going."

[marinobohs]

I would not welcome the demise of a such a long-established and important club, but it is way beyond time that Bohs members and fans stopped accepting the nonsense that is consistently dished out by their board

Yep, Bohs board have a monopoly on that all right. anyone recall the "we have no finanacial problems" line rolled out at Dundalk shortly before they could not pay players contracts ? Cork ? Derry ? drogs ? the 4% club ? etc etc etc.
As regards this non story, advances against guaranteed european income are nothing new (unlike Cork advance on money they MIGHT win). The fact that Bohs needed the advance are worrying but in the absence of bigger picture hardly illuminating.
still any chance for small clubs to have a go...........:rolleyes:

[brianw82]

Yep, Bohs board have a monopoly on that all right. anyone recall the "we have no finanacial problems" line rolled out at Dundalk shortly before they could not pay players contracts ? Cork ? Derry ? drogs ? the 4% club ? etc etc etc.
As regards this non story, advances against guaranteed european income are nothing new (unlike Cork advance on money they MIGHT win). The fact that Bohs needed the advance are worrying but in the absence of bigger picture hardly illuminating.
still any chance for small clubs to have a go...........:rolleyes:

I don't think the fact that they needed the advance for travel obligations is really the issue. Most people here wouldn't have a problem with that. It's the fact that part of that money was used to pay wages, and the fact that the FAI seemed to know this, that's the problem.