View Full Version : Matt Holland and the Irish midfield in general...
eirebhoy
19/02/2004, 4:25 PM
What is up with Matty Holland? He tries his heart out for Charlton but is nearly always invisible for Ireland. He wasn't in his favourite position last night but he still could have put in a bit more effort. He didn't move into the middle enough and if he doesn't start putting in a bit more effort he should be dropped.
My midfield for the world cup qualifiers would be:
Duff-----Kavanagh-----A.Reid-----Miller
or
Duff-----Kavanagh------Delap------A.Reid
only1kilbane
19/02/2004, 4:29 PM
why the obsession with miller who has proved nothing yet? and dropping kilbane is obviously a clever choice !! seen as he is our most consistent player at the moment .. Mattys job was to stay out on the right and protect carr against the attack we presumed was going to come from roberto carlos and he done a steady job.
eirebhoy
19/02/2004, 4:36 PM
If we play Kilbane we are going to have to drop either Duff or Reid as it would be ridiclous to play three natural left wingers in the same team. Duff and Reid are our most creative players and will set up most of Irelands goals.
Of course Kilbane is playing superb for his club but so is Finnan and Connolly. So is Juninho for Boro but can't make it into the Brazilian team. Think of the amount of keepers Italy have and they can only pick one.
Its just tough look that Kilbane has to fight it out with Duff and Reid for a place.
Slash/ED
19/02/2004, 5:02 PM
I love it, Millers proved nothing but we can't drop Kilbane!
Duff Miller Delap Reid for me. Reids out of position but he's got the ability to adapt, he plays all over for Forest. Delaps well worth a chance, he could be that physical presence needed in mid field to drive us on, and Miller just needs to maintain the form he's already showed and he'll be a revelation. Duff picks himself.
Condex
19/02/2004, 5:19 PM
I don't know why people keep going on about Delap, the times I saw hin play he was crap.
Holland is another that should be got rid of.
Reid is a bit light but needs to get playing in the premiership.
All the players should be given a run out over the next few games. We should also try Finnan at left back as O'Shea looks crap at the moment.
Falconblade
19/02/2004, 5:49 PM
Not sure why everybody wants Delap either. Hasn't done anything IMO.
It's tricky. I'm a big fan of Kilbane but I can't see him fitting in at all unless Duffy plays up front and it doesn't look likely at the moment. Andy Reid isn't physical enough to play in the centre.
So my midfield would look something like:
Duff Kavanagh Holland Healy/Reid
Slash/ED
19/02/2004, 6:10 PM
Originally posted by Falconblade
Not sure why everybody wants Delap either. Hasn't done anything IMO.
Yet you pick a first division player ahead of him, with about a combined total of roughly two matches worth of international experience?
Delap hasn't done anything because he's never got the chance, time for a change in the next two matches. He's been class any and every time I've seen him for Southampton, exactly what we need in there.
Reid isn't physical, but light weight he isn't, if anything he needs to lose a bit of weight from what I've seen.
carnstien
19/02/2004, 7:58 PM
Clearly our midfield should be
Finnan - Miller - Healy - Duff
If they are all fit.
Could have Reid sitting behind the front two and Duff on the left. Very hard to be honest. You cant really drop Kilbane and Reid deserves a chance, alternate between the two. Reid doesnt need to be in the premiership, the nationwide is a very strong league.
Slash/ED
19/02/2004, 9:29 PM
Originally posted by petef
Could have Reid sitting behind the front two and Duff on the left. Very hard to be honest. You cant really drop Kilbane and Reid deserves a chance, alternate between the two. Reid doesnt need to be in the premiership, the nationwide is a very strong league.
That would be too light a mid field. I see no reason why we really 'can't drop Kilbane', if he's not in our best mid field then that's all there is too it.
only1kilbane
20/02/2004, 7:57 AM
yeah but the fact is without duffer he is our strongest midfielder at the moment. Miller is all potential which has yet to be put to test on the big stage so how people can say he should be a regular is beyond me !
A few champions league games and hes suddenly a regular international..
Midfield Of - Reid - Kavanagh - Kilbane - Duff
with choice of mcateer , holland, miller and healy as replacements
Originally posted by only1kilbane
yeah but the fact is without duffer he is our strongest midfielder at the moment. Miller is all potential which has yet to be put to test on the big stage so how people can say he should be a regular is beyond me !
A few champions league games and hes suddenly a regular international..
Midfield Of - Reid - Kavanagh - Kilbane - Duff
with choice of mcateer , holland, miller and healy as replacements
I wouldn't fancy playing the French or anyone for that matter witha midfield of above. Kavanagh and reid are first division players, unproven at this level.
Duff - Miller - Holland - Finnan for me.
finlma
20/02/2004, 8:39 AM
Where's this fasination with Kavanagh come from. He's a first division player and proved it against Brazil. He lacks the skill to go around players and his crossing of the ball is appalling. He does try very hard and he's got at presurrising players but other than that there's not much to him. I would struggle to put him in the squad.
Miller? hes got f all experience, is injured at the moment and will not be playing for a long while yet as I cant see O'Neill bothering to play him if hes going. When he moves to Manu he'll end up being a bit part player and unfortunately probably move within a season or two. Noticed youve droped Kilbane as well, I've not been his greatest fan but no one can leave him out now going on his performance the other evening. Keep Kavanagh in but get someone else taking the free kicks. Andy Reids deliveries are excellent.
tiktok
20/02/2004, 8:53 AM
Originally posted by PaulB
Kavanagh and reid are first division players, unproven at this level.
Duff - Miller - Holland - Finnan for me.
Sure Miller's an SPL player, unproven at this level.
As for Kavanagh, I thought he did well.
Originally posted by petef
Miller? hes got f all experience, is injured at the moment and will not be playing for a long while yet as I cant see O'Neill bothering to play him if hes going. When he moves to Manu he'll end up being a bit part player and unfortunately probably move within a season or two. Noticed youve droped Kilbane as well, I've not been his greatest fan but no one can leave him out now going on his performance the other evening. Keep Kavanagh in but get someone else taking the free kicks. Andy Reids deliveries are excellent.
Kavanagh and Reid are first division players. Jesus we've got to look to the future, Kavanagh is 30/31, Miller has got the potential, and I agree that is all it is. But when fit he's got to be given a chance. Even the Senior players say that when they used to play the under 21s, he used to run the show.
tiktok
20/02/2004, 10:21 AM
The problem with Miller is that he most likely will not play any competitive football until August at the earliest, assuming that he can force his way into contention at United. He is highly unlikely to be ready to face France or Switzerland so soon after.
The potential is definitely there, but it won't be seen in the next few friendlies. Kerr should take him to the US, have a look at him over an extended period and give hima shot there, but at the moment, there are players who are regulatly playing first team football who are ahead of him on the pecking order.
sadloserkid
20/02/2004, 1:47 PM
Holland Delap Kilbane Duff
No Colin Healy (ever again hopefully) and no dropping Liam Miller straight in yet. Not playing enough football and has only really impessed two and a half times by my count (Rangers, Lyon and Anderlecht). Hardly ideal preperation for the French and don't get me started on Partick Thistle reserves...
So overall we've got:
Holland
Delap
Kilbane
Duff
Miller
McAteer
Kavanagh
S.Reid
A.Reid
Carsley
Kinsella
Healy
Is that about it realistically? Maybe Finnan as a midfielder too?
That's twelve players not including the Liverpool man though you could shed the bottom three without me shedding too many tears though Kinsella was a fine player a few years ago.
carnstien
20/02/2004, 3:42 PM
The way I see it there is only one midfield position up for grabs.
Duff is an automatic choice on the left.
Finnan should play on the right because he is one of our best players and he has to be accomidated in the team.
Miller should clearly be given a chance in the centre as he has shown great potential.
That leaves one midfield position to be filled and with the possible return of Roy Keane for the qualifiers (although its a long shot), we may not have too far to look.
Why is everyone going on about Miller the guys not going to play a game until August at least! He'll no way be ready to go straight into the team.
only1kilbane
20/02/2004, 3:59 PM
Im sick of the Liam Miller thing and how he should be playing . Let him settle at club level before heaping the kind of pressure you are at international level.
He is promising but we seem to bring players up before they have even proven themself just so we can knock them. The midfield were excellent against brazil and would warrant serious consideration with the introduction of duffer to be included on a regular basis !
Slash/ED
20/02/2004, 5:20 PM
I thought the central mid field was poor against Brazil, tbh. I love all the people saying "Millers proved nothing, but we can't drop Kilbane because he's been playing decently for the same amount of time Miller was starring in the champions league!" what a load of ********, espically when people saying that include Kavanagh ffs.
Where will this fascination with experience end. It started in Basle, "No, we can't play Miller and Reid, the old heads will see us through this one" and frankly I'm hearing the same rubbish every single match. Experience is no substitute for ability. Also you can't dismiss someone based on their level, there was a time when Keane was a first division player, Duff was a first division reserve and Connolly was playing champions league football, so the argument about not being able to play Reid as he's a first division player doesn't wash with me one bit.
By the time the competitive matches begin the US tournament will have come and gone. Football or no football, Miller will play in that cup, except for injury. That will be enough 'preperation' as far as I'm concerned to throw him into the dangerous heights of Cyprus at home, and from there, if he shows he is our best option in central mid field, then he plays against the Swiss and the French. The old heads failed against the Swiss, now their older, it's time to bring in the youngsters. Reid and Miller simply must start when the qualifyers come around.
Look around you, other teams are throwing youngsters in all over. England, Rooney had played 20 minutes of international football and started against Turkey, man of the match. Darren Fletcher got Scotland to the play offs, frankly that says enough for me.
That leaves Duff on the left and an open space in central mid field, presumeing Reid can fit in on the right. Fill it with either Delap, my choice, Kilbane, Holland, Carsley, Healy ect ect based on their form in the friendlys between now and then. That is, after all, the point of the bloody things.
Falconblade
21/02/2004, 4:22 PM
Talking about Kavanagh, having had a poor night with the set pieces in Dublin, he scored a decent free kick for Cardiff today against Sunderland.
brine2
22/02/2004, 9:24 AM
Miller hasn't proved anything yet for Ireland, because he hasn't had the chance. Kilbane has had six years to prove himself.
New players have to be given a chance. The "player x hasn't proved himself yet" mentality will get you nowhere. In fact, it is that mentality that led to John O'Shea watching the World Cup on television.
carnstien
22/02/2004, 2:06 PM
Originally posted by brine2
Miller hasn't proved anything yet for Ireland, because he hasn't had the chance. Kilbane has had six years to prove himself.
New players have to be given a chance. The "player x hasn't proved himself yet" mentality will get you nowhere. In fact, it is that mentality that led to John O'Shea watching the World Cup on television.
Well said boss, all the likes of Kilbane, Holland, Harte, Breen and Kinsella have proved is that they were not good enough to get us to Euro 2004, its time to give the likes of Miller and Andy Ried a chance and see if they can do one better!
fergalr
22/02/2004, 8:42 PM
The lack of consensus on this just proves that we have just one decent midfiielder (Duff) and a selection of mediocrity and inexperience.
Its a long way from the times when we had so many world class midfielders that Ronnie Whelan had to be put in at full-back.
Junior
22/02/2004, 8:56 PM
Originally posted by Slash/ED
I love all the people saying "Millers proved nothing, but we can't drop Kilbane because he's been playing decently for the same amount of time Miller was starring in the champions league!" what a load of ********, espically when people saying that include Kavanagh ffs.
Roughly one and a half games, while very average performances in the SPL
Originally posted by Slash/ED
By the time the competitive matches begin the US tournament will have come and gone. Football or no football, Miller will play in that cup, except for injury. That will be enough 'preperation' as far as I'm concerned to throw him into the dangerous heights of Cyprus at home, and from there, if he shows he is our best option in central mid field, then he plays against the Swiss and the French. The old heads failed against the Swiss, now their older, it's time to bring in the youngsters. Reid and Miller simply must start when the qualifyers come around.
That leaves Duff on the left and an open space in central mid field, presumeing Reid can fit in on the right. Fill it with either Delap, my choice, Kilbane, Holland, Carsley, Healy ect ect based on their form in the friendlys between now and then. That is, after all, the point of the bloody things.
IT looks as though you are detemined to play Miller, having seen little or nothing of him of late. I am 100% certain he will be a great Irish star of the future, but it seems that you feel he should get an automatic start without even playing in the u21 league in Scotland, while say a form player, such as Kilbane needs to prove himself in friendlies - you could be accused of having favourites Slash....are you Mick Mc in dsguise!!!!
Slash/ED
22/02/2004, 9:29 PM
I'm determined to play our strongest starting XI, yeah. Miller is in that. Not only because of what he's shown with Celtic, but because he plays in argubley our weakest position. The same could have been said of Robbie Keane when he emerged.
Kilbane is not worthy of a place in out starting 11, imo, based on, well, pretty much every one of his caps. I've seen little of his so called great form for Ireland anyway, same old Kilbane, works his absolute arse off, skins a few players, lacks the quality to put some end product on it. The little bits I've seen of Everton, which is all anyone bar regular matches goers have seen, have done little to convince me I'm wrong either.
Junior
22/02/2004, 9:45 PM
Originally posted by Slash/ED
I'm determined to play our strongest starting XI, yeah. Miller is in that. Not only because of what he's shown with Celtic, but because he plays in argubley our weakest position..................
Miller is not in our strongest starting 11, how you can come up with that assessment is beyond me, as I've said he played 1 game against Lyon (excellent), 25 mins against Anderlecht, creating a few chances & then a number of league matches in which he was fairly average. (from someone who regularly attends Celtic Park).
As I've said, he will be a star of the future, but needs blooding, hopefully as you say in the forthcoming friendlies, or the US, though this does not disguise the fact that he will have played zero club football between now and August and thereafter at Man U, who knows? with our 2 toughest matches of the qualifying games in Sep/Oct - that is not ideal to say the least.
It just appears to me that you have made your decision on Miller based largely on media hype (I'm assuming) for he simply hasn't played much football. It reminds me of the urgency to get O'shea in the first 11 after great form for Man U last season and well he looks brutal for ireland at the moment:(
Slash/ED
22/02/2004, 9:57 PM
I base my decision on watching him with Celtic and our U21s and how dire out central mid field has been latley. It was, by far, the worst I've ever seen it during the last qualifyers. It needs new players, you have to take risks, I gave two examples up above and I don't see why he can't have the same impact. I can't name two central mid fielders we have who are better, and by the time the big qualifyers come around he should have played in the US and the Cyprus match.
I don't want to go into the France and Swiss matches with the same mid field that was absolutley awful in Basle, and the entire campaign, it wasn't good enough then and it wont be good enough a year later.
eirebhoy
23/02/2004, 2:14 PM
Originally posted by only1kilbane
yeah but the fact is without duffer he is our strongest midfielder at the moment. Miller is all potential which has yet to be put to test on the big stage so how people can say he should be a regular is beyond me !
A few champions league games and hes suddenly a regular international..
Midfield Of - Reid - Kavanagh - Kilbane - Duff
with choice of mcateer , holland, miller and healy as replacements
Aren't you contradicting yourself by putting Reid in while Miller hasn't enough experience? Also, what had Healy done to earn his first callup that Miller hasn't done 3 times over?
Roughly one and a half games, while very average performances in the SPL
I have seen a lot of Celtic this season and Miller has been outstanding in over half the matches. He also had a season long loan spell in Holland aswell as captaining the Irish U-21's.
He has been praised by people that know best, incuding ex-Celtic stars that see him in training and at matches on a regular basis. A lot of players get overrated by papers and TV pundits but I have never heard the amount of praise for any player that Miller got from the people that know best (teammates, ex-managers, current manager, international players, etc, etc.)
Junior
23/02/2004, 3:31 PM
Originally posted by eirebhoy
I have seen a lot of Celtic this season and Miller has been outstanding in over half the matches. He also had a season long loan spell in Holland aswell as captaining the Irish U-21's.
He has been praised by people that know best, incuding ex-Celtic stars that see him in training and at matches on a regular basis. A lot of players get overrated by papers and TV pundits but I have never heard the amount of praise for any player that Miller got from the people that know best (teammates, ex-managers, current manager, international players, etc, etc.)
Don't get me wrong I know he will be a star, and during that period of CL games at Celtic, I was extremly excited about the prospect of him as a celtic & Ireland player (Himself, Celtic and Man U saw to it that the Celtic bit would be no more - but thats another story).
MY concern is
1) over hype - to be honest you rarely get teammates, managers, players do anything but say positive things about a player - particularly while he's still at the club!! I think he looks a real prospect, but in a significant number of his spl performances he was VERY average.
League 11 app 7 sub 2 goals
*Europe 4 app 6 sub 3 goals
*Kaunas 18mins + 90mins
MTK Budapest 12mins + 90mins
B Munich 24mins + 27mins
Lyon 25mins + 90mins
Anderlecht 10mins + 75 mins
he actually played more CL than I thought, but still not a great deal 15/20 mins here and there.
2) The reality is he will play zero club football between now and August, he may get an opportunity in the couple of friendlies we have or the US cup (but hey, Dom Foley looked good in the last one of those) to throw him in for our two toughest games of the campaign Swiss/France away with just a couple of friendlies under his belt + the pressure that comes with being our new midfield messiah, I think will be too much. Heres hoping Im wrong
eirebhoy
23/02/2004, 3:56 PM
Originally posted by Junior
The reality is he will play zero club football between now and August, he may get an opportunity in the couple of friendlies we have or the US cup (but hey, Dom Foley looked good in the last one of those) to throw him in for our two toughest games of the campaign Swiss/France away with just a couple of friendlies under his belt + the pressure that comes with being our new midfield messiah, I think will be too much. Heres hoping Im wrong
Who says he won't play for Celtic again? MON certainly hasn't ruled it out and i would be nearly certain he will play again. He will be moving to United in June/July and we play France in October so that is 3 or 4 months with United.
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