Clubs want format changed

[LukeO]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/0925/1224255210604.html?digest=1

[pineapple stu]

Less pleasing from the association’s point of view, though, will be the fact that a majority of officials do not believe that the benefits of running an A Championship side justify the costs involved
I think this is an interesting insight into the minds of club officials.

We were one of the few teams to take the A League seriously last year, and ended up winning it. Our team in the final last year was -

Brennan (c); Harding (Purcell 75), Stevens, Boyle, E McMillan; King (Cahillane 69), Ward, Bolger, Nangle (Matthews 63); D McMillan, Reilly. Subs not used - Barron, Kelly

Of those, Stevens, King and Cahillane have left the club, while the others are all regulars this season. As a result, despite losing many of our senior players, we were able to start this season with a side which, even though they had less than 100 UCD appearances as a squad between them, is now top of the table.

I think the fact that most club officials think the A League isn't worth it says more about the club officials - and their short terms outlook - than the A League. It's a shame the article didn't bother to try pick up on this.

[Mr A]

Agree 100%. While obviously not as successful as UCD, the majority of our squad this year came from last year's reserve string. I think we need more of these sort of games and especially more U20s rather than less.

[BohDiddley]

I think the fact that most club officials think the A League isn't worth it says more about the club officials - and their short terms outlook - than the A League.


Sorry PS, I know we've been through this before, but you're preaching again from a position of safety. That kind of wisdom comes easy when you and your overheads are embedded in a university.

In principle, the A League is a good and wholesome thing, but this league, or most of it, is in survival mode.

[Mr A]

And it'll never get out of survival mode unless clubs start producing players rather than relying on big wages to get them in...

[pineapple stu]

Thank you.

And also, our overheads are not "embedded in a university" any more than other clubs' overheads are embedded in the local council.

[thischarmingman]

37 per cent disagreeing with the assertion that club licensing has ensured standards that are “set and adhered to"

Who were the 63%? :eek:

[marinobohs]

Who were the 63%? :eek:

can only presume the FAI have a block 63% voting arrangement :D

[dahamsta]

When I was asked to add the A League to Foot.ie, I thought people were pulling my leg. Ireland's just too small to be ****ing about with a third division. It was an idiotic idea, and the people that came up with it, and implemented it, should be taken outside and shot.

[blackholesun]

And it'll never get out of survival mode unless clubs start producing players rather than relying on big wages to get them in...

Disagree with you a bit.

Even if you produce a top crop of young players, as Cork did a few years ago with Kearney, Danny Murphy etc when you win something as they did then the players expect top buck and agents etc start sniffing around.

Clubs need to increase gates and other incomes in order to be able to pay players a regular decent wage with all the usual boom and bust messing.

bhs

[Mr A]

Wouldn't agree with that dahamsta. There needs to be some sort of linkage to the rest of football rather than seeing the Senior game totally isolated.

Also, it's difficult for LOI clubs to find an outlet for other than first team players a lot of the time because they can't play in local leagues and be registered for an LOI club.

[BohDiddley]

Wouldn't agree with that dahamsta. There needs to be some sort of linkage to the rest of football rather than seeing the Senior game totally isolated.

Also, it's difficult for LOI clubs to find an outlet for other than first team players a lot of the time because they can't play in local leagues and be registered for an LOI club.
You're absolutely right. It's a great idea. But when some clubs are struggling to field a first team, they're bound to take a short-term view.

[seand]

Who were the 63%? :eek:

I also spotted this; quite extraordinary. only 37% disagreed 'that club licensing has ensured standards that are “set and adhered to”'.

Truly the mind boggles. Maybe the 63% were in the 'don't know/don't give a toss' category.

[dahamsta]

Wouldn't agree with that dahamsta. There needs to be some sort of linkage to the rest of football rather than seeing the Senior game totally isolated. So use the First Division for that. Irish football is (and was) in enough trouble as it is, adding another layer is just too impractical and too expensive. We're a ****y little country with 4m people, most of whom that play football want to get across the water as soon as possible. The Irish game should be as simple as it can possibly be. It'll never succeed on a business level if it continues to have ideas above it's station.

(I realise that this won't be a popular point of view from a "beautiful game" point of view, but I lean towards the business and practical side of things. And that's what keeps football alive, like it or not. Ireland needs to move away from fanboy football (at management level) and towards practicality and marketing if it wants to ever look like a professional league.)

[marinobohs]

I also spotted this; quite extraordinary. only 37% disagreed 'that club licensing has ensured standards that are “set and adhered to”'.

Truly the mind boggles. Maybe the 63% were in the 'don't know/don't give a toss' category.

maybe 63% thought it was a wind up and are waiting for the punch line...

[pineapple stu]

The thing is, it doubles up as the reserve division, which always existed anyway. So basically all that's happened is that the reserve division is now open to any clubs who have ambitions to join the league. In addition, the theory is that the reserve league is made stronger by having first-teams in there, so everyone gains.

[culloty82]

Wouldn't agree with that dahamsta. There needs to be some sort of linkage to the rest of football rather than seeing the Senior game totally isolated.

If there are up to six clubs on the brink of going bust, why not bring in a regionalised First Division like was suggested a few months back? You'd have lower travel costs, greater attendances and larger revenue (more Munster and Midlands derbies). With Shelbourne and UCD promoted, here's how it would look next season:

D1N:
Athlone
Castlebar
Finn Harps
Longford
Mervue
Monaghan
Salthill
Tullamore

D1S:
Carlow
Cobh
Kildare
Limerick
Sporting Fingal
Tralee
Waterford
Wexford

Teams play four times, both winners replace bottom two Premier teams. There'd certainly be a bigger buzz if Wexford played Carlow, for instance, rather than Monaghan away.

[number16]

i agree with your proposed approach, it would serve the game better and the cluster of teams could develop rivalry!

[passerrby]

If there are up to six clubs on the brink of going bust, why not bring in a regionalised First Division like was suggested a few months back? You'd have lower travel costs, greater attendances and larger revenue (more Munster and Midlands derbies). With Shelbourne and UCD promoted, here's how it would look next season:

D1N:
Athlone
Castlebar
Finn Harps
Longford
Mervue
Monaghan
Salthill
Tullamore

D1S:
Carlow
Cobh
Kildare
Limerick
Sporting Fingal
Tralee
Waterford
Wexford

Teams play four times, both winners replace bottom two Premier teams. There'd certainly be a bigger buzz if Wexford played Carlow, for instance, rather than Monaghan away.

oh...my..god

[Schumi]

Who were the 63%? :eek:

Presumably 63% of clubs don't want any change to the way licensing has been enforced.

[Acornvilla]

i think if you split the first devision in half you are left with two very weak leagues!

[culloty82]

The Northern half would be weaker at the start, but with relegations, and rejorganising of the groups that would happen every few years as a result, they'd soon balance out.

[Acornvilla]

we might get promoted out of it tho!

[BigMikeSmall]

I think the regionalised first division i the worst league reformatting idea yet, and thats saying something because there has been some stinkers.
Imagine Sligo Rovers for example trying to flog season tickets when there opening fixtures read:

Salthill (H)
Tullamore (A)
Castlebar (H)
Mervue (A)
Monaghan (H)

etc.

[dahamsta]

Splits aren't the answer. 2 top leagues is plenty for Ireland.

[Acornvilla]

i think everything woubd be fne if it went back to a 12 team premier with two up and two down every season with no playoffs. Keep things simple! mabye temth could play third in a playoff?

[Bluebeard]

As usual, there are problems with top flight football in Ireland, and people discuss tinkering with the divisions, number of teams, how many games are played, the days of games, the colour of ref jerseys, etc. and genuinely believe that this will change things.

As I see it, there are two major problems in the League of Ireland: Crisis Management & False Expectation.

Crisis Management is the one where all teams say "What can we do?" and simply go from fighting one fire to the next, keeping things afloat. What the teams are doing is necessary to stay alive. All that the crisis management does is treat symptoms. Unfortunately there is no-one who is involved able to stand back a yard and say "What is the cause of these crises, what might be a cure?" The FAI cannot afford to stand back because they will be eaten alive by the clubs. Similarly if they do anything more than tinker, they will be eaten alive by the clubs. But every club, barring maybe a few, UCD, Wexford, perhaps some more, is basically slipping in and out of crisis all the time for various different reasons. No-one is asking why, nor is anyone researching a cure.


False Expectation is possibly one of the causes. There are three layers of false expectation.
Firstly the expectation from fans that this is / should be a major European league. It isn't. As Dahamsta rightly said it is a sh!tty little 4m strong country, and to expand, filled with begrudgers of the Greener Grass variety, who have become used to the idea of plenty. There is no way the entire Ireland, even if supported to capacity, can afford Cristiano Ronaldo, so people should realise that it won't be like watching Real Madrid. THe expectation built by Sky that you can sit on your hole and be told how good a 0-0 draw between two sides you should never have heard of is better than a game where you are deprived of the option to switch to Friends if it is really dull is not appealling. This needs examination in a famously "Sports Mad"TM country. People have to come to terms with the idea that it should always be glamour - even big time football often is not. And the genuine fans who go to games at whatever level, also have to come to terms with the idea that some people are fans of whatever entertains them, not whatever costs time and emotional investment. Then we can get on with things and leave sports entertainment junkies to Sky, and get realistic about how "Sports Mad"TM Ireland really is.

Secondly, the false expectation that one success shall beget another on the part of the clubs. There is a parable in some old novel about the man who prepared a feast on the expectation of plenty, but suffered on his presumption, or whatever it was. At the moment, three or four Irish clubs are budgetting each season for winning prize / TV money, expecting that the gates will be bigger than last year, that there will be a clear increase in turnover / revenue, maybe not this year, but "soon". Drogheda came very close to big puddles when they initially committed big sums on the expectation of success. They were lucky, odd as it may sound. Had they not won the FAI Cup that time they could have been rightly shanked. Bohs have been sailing very close to the wind, Tom Coughlan too. There is not money to be made in football - every avenue towards prize money has 22 clubs chasing it every year in Ireland. One bad game at the wrong time, an incorrect red card, a bad night weather wise - any of these can gut a team's season on the current model.


Finally, possinbly most insidious of all, the belief that there is a magic bullet cure - move to the Summer / 10 team division / Friday night football / Tom the Gom in a Kaftan. There will be about 22 different strategies needed at a local level, plus another few at a national level, all of them integrated - something we don't really do in Ireland.

GAH!

[Mr A]

Great post Mr Beard.

I think one of the big consequences of the false expectations for the league is that every revamp and attempt to improve things is always driven by a minority of clubs at the top rather than taking a holistic approach to the league. Indeed the growth and success of the senior game here is also tied to that of the other levels of the sport. To really see things improve not only do the individual clubs have to get their act together, but our governing body needs to come up with a plan to make all levels of the game work together properly.

[gufcfan]

I think the fact that most club officials think the A League isn't worth it says more about the club officials - and their short terms outlook
Agree 100%.

You get periodic nonsense about "sustainability" from clubs, but when it comes down to it, they are against putting structures in place.

Galway United has gone from a club that was very successful at underage level, p1ssing on all the other local clubs basically (during the time period I knew of them), to having no structure at all. The mandatory u-20 side is a joke. Beaten 10-0 recently. I'm not angry at the team... just the attitude towards the team.

It angers me looking back at old programmes, reading the articles within reporting on how well they were doing.

[dahamsta]

Great post Mr Beard.Indeed. Ireland's size actually makes - or should make - the process of professionalising Irish football very easy.


The clubs need to stop faffing about with sheepskin-wearing hobbyhorse directors that are in it for backslaps, not booty. Football clubs aren't E Class Mercs or tasteless oversized mansions, they're businesses with customers and employees. Profit should be the prize, not trophies. If it's working, one begets the other.
The FAI needs to stop shuffling deckchairs around, step back and realise it's just not working, and simplify, simplify, simplify. We're a simple country with simple people driven by simple needs. Do a survey if you want to but leave the consultation at the door, make it multiple choice and short with it. Come back with a plan in 30 days or less.
The fans need to stop bitching and start supporting. Irish fans are worse than the brits for getting distracted by the idiocy and stupidity of Irish football, constantly criticising with next-to-zero zero constructive commentary and action. Stop talking about community-owned clubs, for example, either go out and do it or shut the hell up.
The media needs to read the bit above about the fans, plus they need to get behind Irish football and stop acting like a bog standard barstooler brit-club fans. Have a bit of pride in your country ffs.
To follow up on Bluebeard's point, everyone needs to get their head out of the clouds and accept that while Irish football can be professional, and successful, those involved need to have simple tastes like the rest of us. We need to accept and embrace that we're essentially a feeder for foreign clubs, and make the most of it.

Oh and finally, there's this new thing called Mergers and Acquisitions, you might've heard of it...

adam

[culloty82]

Of course the status quo is best if a proper plan is put in place to ensure the future of all clubs, only threw the idea out because it tends to be the small rural town clubs (Kilkenny, Cobh) that are going under. In the long-term though, the A Championship clubs will have to be sorted out, because while they're happy with the format for now, I doubt they'll put up with still playing Pats B and Harps B in 10 years time.

[dong]

. No-one is asking why, nor is anyone researching a cure.

The main reason is the high wages being dished out. Surely everybody knows this?
Good article though. I would agree with most of what you are saying.
The point made by Dahamsta about the Media is spot on also. There is no publicity worth talking about in the national media.

[Schumi]

In the long-term though, the A Championship clubs will have to be sorted out, because while they're happy with the format for now, I doubt they'll put up with still playing Pats B and Harps B in 10 years time.
I presume the idea is that more teams will join and the B teams will make up a smaller and smaller proportion of the teams in it. It's gone from 3 teams last year to 6 this year. Long term, there might be enough teams that there'd be 4 groups of eight with only 3 B teams in each and it'd be more of a normal league. The key to getting more teams in is to keep costs down of course.

[John83]

When the hell did this thread start making sense?

[Sam_Heggy]

Been talking about the set up of the league for a long time, no one can seem to agree. Many would be in favour of an 18 team league but I don't think it would work.

I would go with 2 leagues of 12, each team play each other 3 times (4 times is a disaster especially if the same clubs meet in cup competition also).

Add in 2 out of Cobh, Carlow, Tralee, Salthill, Castlebar or Tullamore into the 1st Division promoting Shels and UCD for example.

I think a much more important structure is one that will look at things from an underage perspective.

A Reserve league can work, although, I don't see why you would need an entirely new squad for it. Surely if you have a panel of 22/23 in your first team and the same for your Under 20 (or Under 21) then the players not getting a game that weekend in either of those teams can get a game in the reserves, thus giving the majority of players at your club a match to play in each weekend.

We need an under 18/19 and under 20/21 league also, they may be costly in terms of extra travel but, in the future I think it can benefit the club greatly.


Splitting the under 20 league into 4 regions is crazy, the players get a handful of games over the course of a few months and they are out the door and back to their junior clubs. We need more games for the underage sides so splitting the clubs into 2 regions would make much more sense with 2 groups of 12 and each team plays each other twice. That's 24 games for the season, much more beneficial to clubs and players.

The Donegal league registrations close on 31st October and we have 12 of our Under 20's looking to leave for their Junior clubs (understandably) leaving us in danger of not fielding in our remaining 3 games. We struggled to field against Sligo at the weekend as 6 have already left. The main reason for leaving is the lack of games, I don't blame the lads one bit, it's the League that needs to sort this out.

Sorry for length of post but the truth is, that was the scaled down version ;)

[Ronnie]

Wages and turnover. Quite simply the key. Our clubs as businesses entities are simply not turning over enough money to justify a full time set up. The sums do not add up. No club in Ireland can consistently earn the 2m plus a year it would need to sustain a full time club. Until both sides of that problme is addressed it will continue to be boom

[Acornvilla]

wwhy cant clubs sustain full time players just if clubs kept too the 65% rule there is no reason why clubs can not have full time players on 400-500 a week??

[Ronnie]

Asking a player to commit to a full time career on 400-500 a week is simply not attractive, when a part time club could also offer the same gross, with more time off and the chance of having a career and income away from football. For a player, really need to earn at least 40k pa to justify full time , not that long ago a lot of players were earning close on 100k pa.
Shamrock Rovers will be the best supported club this season, and they only expect to turnover 1.3m, and have no intention of going full time next season. In their case, if 65% goes on players wages, meaning around 850k gross for players wages, or 17k per week, between 25 pros average weekly wage of 680 gross per week - only a fraction of what people were earning in some clubs a little over 12 months ago.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Asking a player to commit to a full time career on 400-500 a week is simply not attractive, when a part time club could also offer the same gross, with more time off and the chance of having a career and income away from football. For a player, really need to earn at least 40k pa to justify full time , not that long ago a lot of players were earning close on 100k pa.
Shamrock Rovers will be the best supported club this season, and they only expect to turnover 1.3m, and have no intention of going full time next season. In their case, if 65% goes on players wages, meaning around 850k gross for players wages, or 17k per week, between 25 pros average weekly wage of 680 gross per week - only a fraction of what people were earning in some clubs a little over 12 months ago.

I think you are wrong ther in your estimation of what a full time professional should earn. A full time professional team could be run on as little as 12k. the money that was flying around the league a couple of seasons ago is gone. clubs are aware of this and the players wages will decrease further next season due to this. Players have the right to refuse whats on offer or to seek alternative employment and try part time but the majority of players prefer full time if they had the choice.

Provided the clubs are run properly behind the scenes full time football shouldn't be a problem

[dahamsta]

Um, how do you run a full time professional team on 12k? Is it a Subbuteo team?

[John83]

Um, how do you run a full time professional team on 12k? Is it a Subbuteo team?
I think we can assume he meant per week. Not that I agree with him. Take employers PRSI and income tax out of that, and even running with a squad of 16, you'd be asking people to go pro in a career that ends in the mid 30s on very little money. You might get a few, particularly people who aren't really qualified to do anything else, but for the most part, that's not going to work.

[Longfordian]

What you'd tend to get is a good amount of players from outside of Ireland such as those at Dundalk and Sligo, no offence to intended to anybody. They'd be players that have dropped down the ladder in England or Scotland maybe over a period and wouldn't have worked at anything else. They'd like to stay playing full time football and they go where they get a contract.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Um, how do you run a full time professional team on 12k? Is it a Subbuteo team?


I think we can assume he meant per week. Not that I agree with him. Take employers PRSI and income tax out of that, and even running with a squad of 16, you'd be asking people to go pro in a career that ends in the mid 30s on very little money. You might get a few, particularly people who aren't really qualified to do anything else, but for the most part, that's not going to work.

You are correct I did mean 12k a week.

We only live in Ireland and we can't pay players high wages, if players think the wages over here are too low then they should f off over to england and earn a living there.
Professional players should be using their spare time to educate or reeducate themselves and to set themselves up when retirement. We live in a world where knowledge is power and even the most intelligent will probably have to at a later date re-educate themselves and switch from the sector that they are currently involved in. Why should LOI players be any different.

[Mr A]

We live in a world where knowledge is power and even the most intelligent will probably have to at a later date re-educate themselves and switch from the sector that they are currently involved in. Why should LOI players be any different.

Because most of them can barely tie their shoelaces?

[Ronnie]

You are correct I did mean 12k a week.

We only live in Ireland and we can't pay players high wages, if players think the wages over here are too low then they should f off over to england and earn a living there.
Professional players should be using their spare time to educate or reeducate themselves and to set themselves up when retirement. We live in a world where knowledge is power and even the most intelligent will probably have to at a later date re-educate themselves and switch from the sector that they are currently involved in. Why should LOI players be any different.

But, at lower wages part time contracts are feasible, which are thus more attractive for the player. Yes the clubs would love full timers on 30k per annum, but thats what a part time premier might offer, and its not enough to build for retirement, especially as contracts are usually only for 1 or 2 years.

Whatever about the how Rovers got to where they are now, the current people in charge have a least got some realism into their plans, undoubtedly learning something from the mistakes of others, both in Rovers and in other clubs.

[dahamsta]

TBH I've never understood the obsession with a fully professional league. Yes it should be a goal of the league, but long term. You have to walk before you can run, and the Irish leagues keep falling over just when they've figured out the what those things under their balls are.

[Schumi]

TBH I've never understood the obsession with a fully professional league.

Me neither, especially given the patchy success that full time teams have had. A part-time Rovers team is ahead of full-time Cork, Derry, Dundalk and Sligo teams this year. Galway had a full-time team last year or the year before and only finished midtable, Drogheda took years to get anywhere with their full-time team

[Acornvilla]

if a player cant survive on 400 a week what hope have people with large familys on less than that!?

[John83]

if a player cant survive on 400 a week what hope have people with large familys on less than that!?
It's not about surviving. It's about it just not being worth their while to take that money when they can play as an amateur elsewhere for not much less and earn money and build a longer-lasting career in landscaping or in a bank or whatever at the same time.

[KevB76]

Asking a player to commit to a full time career on 400-500 a week is simply not attractive, when a part time club could also offer the same gross, with more time off and the chance of having a career and income away from football. For a player, really need to earn at least 40k pa to justify full time , not that long ago a lot of players were earning close on 100k pa.


Are you serious?!
€40k pa would be considered a very good income for most of us with a real job, never mind for kicking a ball around a couple of time a week for 9 months!!!
(I have no problem with players earning as much as they can if the clubs could afford it).