Setanta cup as an all Ireland league...

[rerun]

Looking over the thread about the Setanta cup it seems like there's a fair amount of apathy towards the Setanta cup this season. Is it time to reformat the competition and create an all Ireland league type competition out of it?

Maybe have the top three, cup, and league cup winners from each jurisdiction in a 10 team league. Obviously home and away would be out due to the amount of games, but could play each other once, so guaranteeing nine games per team. Not sure how to overcome the "we only got 4 home games" argument.

Anyway, to give it a bit of pizazz, first and second in the league after 9 games play off in a grand final, a la Aussie rules.

I guess a single group competition would be a good barometer for fans attitude towards an all Ireland league, but without endangering CL and EL places for each association and the men in suits keep their castles.

[Steve Bruce]

Looking over the thread about the Setanta cup it seems like there's a fair amount of apathy towards the Setanta cup this season. Is it time to reformat the competition and create an all Ireland league type competition out of it?

Maybe have the top three, cup, and league cup winners from each jurisdiction in a 10 team league. Obviously home and away would be out due to the amount of games, but could play each other once, so guaranteeing nine games per team. Not sure how to overcome the "we only got 4 home games" argument.

Anyway, to give it a bit of pizazz, first and second in the league after 9 games play off in a grand final, a la Aussie rules.

I guess a single group competition would be a good barometer for fans attitude towards an all Ireland league, but without endangering CL and EL places for each association and the men in suits keep their castles.

I don't see why we can't play home and away. Irish League teams could foresake the likes of the North West Cup/County Antrim Shield/Mid Ulster Cup and then let in to the teams of the AIL into the League cup at a later stage similar to those teams who are in europe join the carling cup in the 3rd round.

[citybone]

Looking over the thread about the Setanta cup it but without endangering CL and EL places for each association and the men in suits keep their castles.

Exactly! A AIL is the way to go. A 12 ream split with the best 12 clubs on the Island (Not a even split of teams)

[Sam_Heggy]

An All Ireland Cup would be great, get rid of the League Cup and include both sides of the border. Just play it as a knock out competition though. Big sponsors would jump at it thus stumping up big money for the winners.
If Sky Sports came on board it could be a great boost to local football on the Island.

[centre mid]

God its been ages since there was an All Ireland Legaue thread


Looking over the thread about the Setanta cup it seems like there's a fair amount of apathy towards the Setanta cup this season. Is it time to reformat the competition and create an all Ireland league type competition out of it?

I thought thats what the Setanta cup already was.


Irish League teams could foresake the likes of the North West Cup/County Antrim Shield/Mid Ulster Cup


Sure feck tradition and all that.


If Sky Sports came on board it could be a great boost to local football on the Island.

I'd say they would prefer if both leagues died tbh, they only show IL games as its contractual with the IFA to screen Internationals.

[tiktok]

An open draw all Ireland cup replacing the third competitions north and south would need to be seen to work before an AIL is considered. The spoof merchants at platinum one were talking up the impact an AIL would have on attendances, but the only all Ireland competition we have has consistently failed to capture the imagination of the supporters of those teams involved, nevermind the wider public's imagination.

I think people way overestimate the impact of bringing Cliftonville to Waterford or UCD to Dungannon,

[Acornvilla]

I think people way overestimate the impact of bringing Cliftonville to Waterford or UCD to Dungannon
agreed.. the big games might get crowds but not the smaller teams and then waht happens to the teams in the lower tier. Also people ignore the extra traveling that teams and supporters will have to overcome i doubt beople in cork would be delighted about traveling 300 miles or more evey week

[A face]

An open draw all Ireland cup replacing the third competitions north and south would need to be seen to work before an AIL is considered. The spoof merchants at platinum one were talking up the impact an AIL would have on attendances, but the only all Ireland competition we have has consistently failed to capture the imagination of the supporters of those teams involved, nevermind the wider public's imagination.

I think people way overestimate the impact of bringing Cliftonville to Waterford or UCD to Dungannon,


agreed.. the big games might get crowds but not the smaller teams and then waht happens to the teams in the lower tier. Also people ignore the extra traveling that teams and supporters will have to overcome i doubt beople in cork would be delighted about traveling 300 miles or more evey week

I take your points lads but no competition that runs on two side of the calendar and on Tuesday nights was ever going to capture the imagination. I think whatever competition happens, it has to be given all the chances to succeed or expectations have to drop a bit.

[Acornvilla]

its great for the competing clubs finantially thou so youd expect atleast the manager would be all out to win it?

[dong]

Depends what the situation of the club is at the time. The problem for Rovers now is that survival in the premier division is all that counts. A few grand from winning Setanta would be worthless if you find yourself in the first division (all respect to Longford!).
To win it we would have to play our best players every game. I for one would be calling for Cook's head if Gavin Peers got injured in a Setanta game at this stage.

[Acornvilla]

ha dont worry the first devision is crap i miss being in the premier id trade the cups for it!

[thischarmingman]

That time of year again? :)


An All Ireland Cup would be great, get rid of the League Cup and include both sides of the border. Just play it as a knock out competition though. Big sponsors would jump at it thus stumping up big money for the winners.


This makes most sense to me. Playing it as a knockout competition means every game has something major riding on it in that one of the two teams will be heading out. The LC has lost any prestige it had when even we failed to take it seriously this year (:p), it would re-juvenate it, it would fit into the current season withoutb fixture chaos, and a far wider selection of teams would be taking part.

[tiktok]

I take your points lads but no competition that runs on two side of the calendar and on Tuesday nights was ever going to capture the imagination. I think whatever competition happens, it has to be given all the chances to succeed or expectations have to drop a bit.

Against Cliftonville this season we played on a Saturday evening with good weather.
We got an attendance of 1200, far less than even half of our average attendance this season. We got three times that on a Tuesday night a few weeks previously at home to Shamrock Rovers for a league game.

[holidaysong]

I think A face still makes a good point about the competition being too spread out. It's just too hard to sustain interest across such a long period of time. The players in the team that win the competition could be unrecognisable from the ones who started off the campaign. Sure the four Northern representatives qualified for the 2009/10 tournament thanks to their performances in the 2007/08 season!

[tiktok]

I think A face still makes a good point about the competition being too spread out. It's just too hard to sustain interest across such a long period of time. The players in the team that win the competition could be unrecognisable from the ones who started off the campaign. Sure the four Northern representatives qualified for the 2009/10 tournament thanks to their performances in the 2007/08 season!

It's a cup competition so it is always going to be somewhat spread out, if it's a good enough competition it should hold interest, as the FAI cup does [even if your own team is knocked out]. Were the League of Ireland winners this season to get to the Champiosn League Final, it'd be 18 months later and they might not even be the current League champions while the competition is still in the group phase.

The Setanta Cup and by extrapolation, an All-Ireland League has far bigger challenges than the calendar.

[redobit]

Best thing at the moment for the Seatana Cup is to add more teams and make it a knock-out competition.

[A face]

Against Cliftonville this season we played on a Saturday evening with good weather.
We got an attendance of 1200, far less than even half of our average attendance this season. We got three times that on a Tuesday night a few weeks previously at home to Shamrock Rovers for a league game.

Ahh .... well .... err ..... ok :D Point well made, but i dunno. I think its just a bit of apathy for the competition after the freezing cold, rainy, Tuesdays against Swifts with no shed etc.

My point really should have included a bit about it starting afresh and to ramp up the interest in it again.


It's a cup competition so it is always going to be somewhat spread out, if it's a good enough competition it should hold interest, as the FAI cup does [even if your own team is knocked out]. Were the League of Ireland winners this season to get to the Champiosn League Final, it'd be 18 months later and they might not even be the current League champions while the competition is still in the group phase.

The Setanta Cup and by extrapolation, an All-Ireland League has far bigger challenges than the calendar.

If you dropped the other cup competitions it would add the interest in it.

In general, i just feel that the competition near got a chance to get going because it was always on a Monday or Tuesday night and couldn't really get going.

[galwayhoop]

An All Ireland Cup would be great, get rid of the League Cup and include both sides of the border. Just play it as a knock out competition though. Big sponsors would jump at it thus stumping up big money for the winners.
If Sky Sports came on board it could be a great boost to local football on the Island.

best idea by far. Top 5 in each league get a bye in first round. other 12 play each other in open draw format. open draw thereafter. Replace the EA league cup and similar up north. games all decided on the day.

[tiktok]

If you dropped the other cup competitions it would add the interest in it.

I agree completely with that, Sam_Heggy's idea is the best path forward.
The thing is, any cross border competition is going to have the problem that the leagues don't run at the same time.

[citybone]

agreed.. the big games might get crowds but not the smaller teams and then waht happens to the teams in the lower tier. Also people ignore the extra traveling that teams and supporters will have to overcome i doubt beople in cork would be delighted about traveling 300 miles or more evey week

Yes our shortest Away trip is either St. Pats/Shamrock Rovers or Galway hard to tell exactly but there wouldnt be much difference time wise. I do like the Setanta cup but it would be better if it was top 4 in LOI and top 2 in the IL.

[dublinred]

About 200 people at our game v Cliftonville seems to be no interest in it this year , both teams played weakened sides Paul Cook was at Ballybofey watching Waterford can't see this going ahead next year in its current format i think the fact that its overlapping into next season isn't helping.

[Not Brazil]

About 200 people at our game v Cliftonville .

The official attendance was 473.

[Shelsman]

best idea by far. Top 5 in each league get a bye in first round. other 12 play each other in open draw format. open draw thereafter. Replace the EA league cup and similar up north. games all decided on the day.

I agree but think that a 32 team knockout would be best (16 from North, 16 from South). Maybe an open draw but by having the first round seeded at least it would be more likely the big guns would feature in the final (or would people prefer to see a UCD vs Sporting Final final played in front of 300 fans? :D).

[dcfcsteve]

Oh good - another AIL thread...... :)

Bottom line is that the Setanta appears to be dying on its arse at the moment. I'd be surprised if it survives another year, and stunned if it made it to another one beyond then without drastic change.

The most likely change, however, is that it'll be quietly dropped.

[Dalymountrower]

About 200 people at our game v Cliftonville seems to be no interest in it this year , both teams played weakened sides Paul Cook was at Ballybofey watching Waterford can't see this going ahead next year in its current format i think the fact that its overlapping into next season isn't helping.

If Sligo`s cross border debut can attract less than 200 Sligo travelling fans on a saturday it looks like the game is up for the competition.

[Acornvilla]

problem is no-one even relly tries to publasise the fixtures anymore there isnt the same buz about the competition as there used to be..

it was a very big deal for longford when we were in it i think a lot is down to the clubs dismissing the competition.

it is stupid holding it over two seasons thou and there is probably too many teams in it now thus dragging it on for too long and having sub standrd teams competing its getting like the champions league whee too many average teams get places in the competition

[Dalymountrower]

If Sligo`s cross border debut can attract less than 200 Sligo travelling fans on a saturday it looks like the game is up for the competition.

Edit; 50 travelling fans:eek:

[CF1989]

there would have been more if everyone knew that the first 11 would be playing. cooky made ten changes for the first game and our fans knew it'd be more or less the same for saturday and didnt bother going. it was an enjoyable game though for those who went and id much prefer to do well in this than the league cup. more attractive playing teams from across the border..something different anyways

[seand]

The only way forward I can see is for a knockout tournament. Maybe top 8 from each side, keep clubs from the same league apart as much as possible.

[dcfcsteve]

there would have been more if everyone knew that the first 11 would be playing. cooky made ten changes for the first game and our fans knew it'd be more or less the same for saturday and didnt bother going. it was an enjoyable game though for those who went and id much prefer to do well in this than the league cup. more attractive playing teams from across the border..something different anyways

Do you really have a sizeable number of fans who wait with bated breath on the announcement of the likely starting eleven for any game before they decide whether or not to travel away to it....? :eek:

Bonkers.....

[Macy]

Do you really have a sizeable number of fans who wait with bated breath on the announcement of the likely starting eleven for any game before they decide whether or not to travel away to it....? :eek:
What's bonkers about fans not travelling when the team clearly aren't giving it any priority?

If this is whats happening, with even the likes of Sligo not taking it seriously then the competition is dead - it's just a question of when Setanta pull the plug.

I know there's a lot of threads on it already, but it does explode the myth that some peddle that an AIL will solve all financial ills. At this rate, attendances will actually be down further!

[gspain]

Approx 250 travelling Coleraine fans in Dalymount last night.

According to a Bohs fan I know he thought it was f%^king terrible. According to one I overheard going out it was f&*king Sh^&e. I thought it was much worse than that.

[EalingGreen]

Approx 250 travelling Coleraine fans in Dalymount last night.

According to a Bohs fan I know he thought it was f%^king terrible. According to one I overheard going out it was f&*king Sh^&e. I thought it was much worse than that.I'm entirely open to contradiction, but 250 away fans seems not a bad following to me? What was the total attendance?

Anyhow, to get back to the question posed in the thread title, when the organisers can't seem to hit upon a suitable format for a simple knock-out tournament involving 8 or 9 teams, it would seem bonkers to me to attempt to contrive a successful formula for a League of 12?14?16 teams.

With the present Cup (sadly) appearing to be dying on its arse, all a new Setanta AIL would achieve would be to ****** up the two existing Leagues which, if hardly in rude health, at least have something to offer.

[pineapple stu]

I assume he's talking about the game.

[gspain]

Coleraine support was superb in numbers and in noise - totally outsang the home fans all night although that wasn't too hard to do.

I was talking about the game. That was awful as I'm sure was what the Bohs fans were talking about afterwards.

[dublinred]

Do you really have a sizeable number of fans who wait with bated breath on the announcement of the likely starting eleven for any game before they decide whether or not to travel away to it....? :eek:

Bonkers.....

Its not that bonkers in the middle of a recession to sacrafice a trip to see the reserves sandwiched in between away games to Cork and St Pats , we have had a lot more road trips this season including , Albania via Croatia and Montengro , 3 trips to Cork and even had to had to travel to 2 different gounds to see Shams away this season plus the fact that most of our fans have been to Derry there isn't much of a novelty factor in an away trip to Belfast however I would like to see us play Cliftonville again in a competitive game as their fans made us feel very welcome and had a good setup its always nice to get change out of a twenty quid note for 8 pints compared to the couple of euros change out of 40 for the same round in the return game.

[Quadruple1928]

The crowds are not coming out for setanta games at all. I think the way the fixtures have been moved around has had an effect, the whole format needs to be changed.

[gspain]

Yes very low key this year. This is the first game I've gone to this time around but I normally get to a few. Interest seems way down across the board. Media coverage is even less than usual as well.

It would be a shame to see it go.

Hard to judge the home crowd in Dalymount last night from the Jodi but maybe 1,000.

Bohs had a decent side out too - Deegan, Crowe, Brennan Murphy etc plus a few reserves.

The game badly needed a goal. You can't really blame Coleraine for defending deep and well. They seemed thrilled with the result and so they should be. Bohs had a bad night. I'd still fancy them to win the return and the group.

[redobit]

What's bonkers about fans not travelling when the team clearly aren't giving it any priority?

If this is whats happening, with even the likes of Sligo not taking it seriously then the competition is dead - it's just a question of when Setanta pull the plug.



Im not sure what you mean by that, but the fact is that this season were not able to take Setanta as serious as we would like.
We have a small squad, have had a long season with some really big games coming up. We need or best players for those games and so thats the games the suppporters want to go to.

Cookie wasn't even at the Cliftonville game, took an oppurtunity to see Waterford.

That said we are top of our Setanta Table :eek:

[Mr A]

Im not sure what you mean by that, but the fact is that this season were not able to take Setanta as serious as we would like.
We have a small squad, have had a long season with some really big games coming up. We need or best players for those games and so thats the games the suppporters want to go to.

Cookie wasn't even at the Cliftonville game, took an oppurtunity to see Waterford.

That said we are top of our Setanta Table :eek:

I think he meant that Sligo aren't taking the competition seriously, as is entirely confirmed by the rest of your own post!

[Schumi]

I think it was "the likes of Sligo" he was objecting to!

[holidaysong]

The point is that clubs that don't win much silverware should jump at an opportunity like this when it arises. With all the other teams in the competition not giving a toss about it, if Sligo actually took it seriously then they could win the thing.. Sure just look at the likes of Wexford and Waterford getting to the final of the league cup in the last two years.

[Macy]

Pretty much as holidaysong said - it wasn't meant to be disparaging. A club genuinely challenging for the title maybe excused resting players, but a club in Sligo's position should be grabbing the opportunity. The fact that they're not, shows how poorly the competition is regarded by clubs.

[brianw82]

Pretty much as holidaysong said - it wasn't meant to be disparaging. A club genuinely challenging for the title maybe excused resting players, but a club in Sligo's position should be grabbing the opportunity. The fact that they're not, shows how poorly the competition is regarded by clubs.

Despite that, we still top the group! :eek:

[sligored]

The point is that clubs that don't win much silverware should jump at an opportunity like this when it arises. With all the other teams in the competition not giving a toss about it, if Sligo actually took it seriously then they could win the thing.. Sure just look at the likes of Wexford and Waterford getting to the final of the league cup in the last two years.

Sorry, but staying in the premier league is our priority. We would look like fools in the first division because our players are burnt out playing 2 games a week for the last 8 weeks of the season.

Unlike dundalk we are involved in 5 competitions this season with setanta and the europa league a result of last years success. Sligo have tried to cut their cloth from a financial point of view so we have a fairly small squad and if we lost the likes of peers or cretaro in a setanta cup match for the rest of the season it would severly hinder our chances of staying up.

You as a dundalk fan should know about the graveyard that is the first division and the apathy shown by sponsors towards it . There is a good chance that setanta may not be around next year and even if they are the prizemoney is negligible.

Instead of looking at sligos situation from the out in, you should look at sligos situation from our clubs point of view and how we deal with our difficult league position