IFA sticks with Windsor Park

[punkrocket]

So the IFA have abandoned any policy to attract supporters in the north who are not comfortable with going to Windsor Park. Is this a mistake? Yes it is the cheapest option but many Glens fans, for example, do not go to NI matches at WP on principle and with plans for a 20,000 capacity revamp will it ever be filled for a league match? Most league games at Windsor already feel like like the tumbleweed is bouncing around with the size that it is now.
For the benefit of the league the contract for the use of Windsor for the internationals will have to be redrawn with an equitable distribution of profits benefitting all clubs or Linfield will just pull further away from everyone else.

[Gather round]

So the IFA have abandoned any policy to attract supporters in the north who are not comfortable with going to Windsor Park

Er, no. They have (sensibly) confirmed a policy to invest in the best available option. The Maze plan was an absurdly expensive white elephant; other sites in Belfast city centre (Ormeau Park, Queen's/ Titanic Island, Blanchflower Park by the airport would also have been costly, difficult to get planning consent for, and likely opposed by local residents. Windsor can be refurbed to an adequate 20,000 for £20 million. That will be fine for NI's needs.

I acknowledge the uncomfortable supporters in the North as you call them, and reckon they can be persuaded to come along. If not, it's a shame but we'll concentrate on those who do.


Is this a mistake? Yes it is the cheapest option but many Glens fans, for example, do not go to NI matches at WP on principle and with plans for a 20,000 capacity revamp will it ever be filled for a league match?

Not sure I'm with you here. Are you suggesting that NI should build a new stadium for internationals because a few Glens fans don't like Windsor? Evidence suggested they were even less keen on a long journey to an empty field well beyond Lisburn.

No, Linfield- Glens derbies on Boxing Day won't get 20,000. NI against England or Spain probably will.


Most league games at Windsor already feel like like the tumbleweed is bouncing around with the size that it is now

That's not a reason not to redevelop Windsor. See below.


For the benefit of the league the contract for the use of Windsor for the internationals will have to be redrawn with an equitable distribution of profits benefitting all clubs or Linfield will just pull further away from everyone else

Details remain to be confirmed but in practice there will be a new licence. I suspect it will give effective part-ownership of the ground to the IFA (thus benefitting all clubs as you hope).

[MariborKev]

I acknowledge the uncomfortable supporters in the North as you call them, and reckon they can be persuaded to come along. If not, it's a shame but we'll concentrate on those who do.

GR,

As a northern Catholic who attended Windsor regularly in the mid-late 90s(we had a block booking, and went when the games didn't clash with ROI), I always thought the stadium issue was down the list of priorities.

Personally, I think the anthem is a major bone of contention.

Windsor being redeveloped is better than the plethora of "plans" that have been floating about for the last few years. Hopefully some of the money left over can fund the redevelopment of the Brandywell.

[Gather round]

As a northern Catholic who attended Windsor regularly in the mid-late 90s(we had a block booking, and went when the games didn't clash with ROI), I always thought the stadium issue was down the list of priorities

Fair enough. Leaving aside broad political issues for a moment, there are clearly major problems with Windsor. Largely to do with engineering- it's ramshackle and might fall down in the next few years without the refurb :mad:

On the other hand, it isn't that difficult/ expensive to do a 20,000 stadium on an existing site. Look at Notts County or Tranmere Rovers in England, say.


Personally, I think the anthem is a major bone of contention

Understood. Albeit for slightly different reasons I think we must change it. Again, apart from broad political issues I don't like using the same tune as two other teams, Britain as a whole and England.

Danny boy or something like Ireland's Call would do if we can't have my favorites (Alternative Ulster/ Gloria/ Pearly Spencer/ Teenage kicks etc.) :)


Hopefully some of the money left over can fund the redevelopment of the Brandywell

Agreed. I'd be glad to see a NI full international friendly in Derry, as I've said here before. Much better than a field nowhere near Lisburn.

[Mayo Red]

Just a small observation I had when watching some of the Slovakia match the other night, maybe it's just me but the floodlighting in Windsor Park seems poor when compared to other stadiums that host International Football. I know UEFA have guidelines for the floodlighting of grounds so I presume they meet the requirement for International Football but they still seem poor, is it to do with their placement or something?

[ifk101]

I don't like using the same tune as two other teams, Britain as a whole and England.

Don't forget Liechtenstein

0IJNuN4KGTU

[Gather round]

maybe it's just me but the floodlighting in Windsor Park seems poor when compared to other stadiums that host International Football. I know UEFA have guidelines for the floodlighting of grounds so I presume they meet the requirement for International Football but they still seem poor, is it to do with their placement or something?

Can't say I'd ever noticed a problem with them.


Don't forget Liechtenstein

Indeed. I'm surprised it's the 'Deutschen' Rhein, mind. They don't even share a border with Germany.

[punkrocket]

Er, no. They have (sensibly) confirmed a policy to invest in the best available option.

I don't agree that it is the best option but would grant that it is the cheapest but is that always the criteria that should always govern such decisions. The economic impact of developing a new stadium at The North Foreshore on the area would be enormous and totally transform the area for the better certainly much more than the impact on the Village/Lisburn rd area that a £20 million revamp would have. The land belongs to Belfast City council who are keen on regenerating the whole north foreshore, it has good road links and a rail halt could be easily developed as part of the project. WP is close to the M1 but the roads closer to the ground are a warren with poor parking with many local residents far from happy with the current situation never mind a future scenario of 20,000 turning up(be that on a very rare occasion).

"The Maze plan was an absurdly expensive white elephant"

I dont think that I mentioned the Maze.

"other sites in Belfast city centre (Ormeau Park, Queen's/ Titanic Island, Blanchflower Park by the airport would also have been costly, difficult to get planning consent for, and likely opposed by local residents."

As I said above there are many local residents in the Lisburn Rd area who are far from happy with the few thousand football fans who turn up now choking up the area. No one lives anywhere near the North Foreshore.

"I acknowledge the uncomfortable supporters in the North as you call them, and reckon they can be persuaded to come along. If not, it's a shame but we'll concentrate on those who do."

So tough s**t on them? hardly an inclusive policy to be adopting.


"Not sure I'm with you here. Are you suggesting that NI should build a new stadium for internationals because a few Glens fans don't like Windsor? Evidence suggested they were even less keen on a long journey to an empty field well beyond Lisburn."

Glens fans, reds fans etc etc. It's the lack of inclusiveness and again, I didnt mention the Maze

"No, Linfield- Glens derbies on Boxing Day won't get 20,000. NI against England or Spain probably will."

The biggest league game of the season wont fill it never mind one on a wet Tuesday evening against Dungannon (no offence Dungannon)? How often does NI play against the likes of England or Spain, maybe a few times more than usual recently but you really think that it's an efficient use of resources to enlarge the place for the odd match every few years.



"That's not a reason not to redevelop Windsor."

Yes it is -a waste of scant resources which would be better off going elsewhere.


"Details remain to be confirmed but in practice there will be a new licence. I suspect it will give effective part-ownership of the ground to the IFA (thus benefitting all clubs as you hope)."


We will wait and see how that turns out. If the IFA's track record is anything to go by, 100 year contarcs and the like, I wouldn't hold my breath. I agree that there will probably be some benefit to all clubs but equitable benefit to all? I can see Linfireld still getting the lions share of any benefits so cementing their hegemony.
As it stands Linfield have home advantage for the Irish Cup final as well, I can't see that changing either.

Now that's off my chest can anyone show me how to put quotations in those nice wee grey boxes please.

[punkrocket]

I think I can see what is happening with this grey box thing. Trial and error, the only way to live.

[Schumi]

just put
before what you want in a box and after it. Leave out the * to get it to work.

[MariborKev]

Fair enough. Leaving aside broad political issues for a moment, there are clearly major problems with Windsor. Largely to do with engineering- it's ramshackle and might fall down in the next few years without the refurb :mad:

On the other hand, it isn't that difficult/ expensive to do a 20,000 stadium on an existing site. Look at Notts County or Tranmere Rovers in England, say

Agreed, but would hardly need £20m would it?

South Stand and what was the "Family Stand" with the scoreboard are obviously the first priority.

KOP is fine and the North Stand would be the last stage in any redevelopment surely?

[ifk101]

.... the North Stand would be the last stage in any redevelopment surely?

No expert on Windsor Park but hasn't there been issues surrounding the roof on the North Stand?

[Gather round]

I don't agree that it is the best option but would grant that it is the cheapest but is that always the criteria that should always govern such decisions

I mentioned other criteria above- planning, access, wider party politics, overall economic situation. Considering all factors, I think refurbishing Windsor is best.


The economic impact of developing a new stadium at The North Foreshore on the area would be enormous and totally transform the area for the better certainly much more than the impact on the Village/Lisburn rd area that a £20 million revamp would have

As a local (from Duncairn Gardens originally) I would very much like the North Foreshore to be regenerated. But...the cost would be a lot more than £20 million.


WP is close to the M1 but the roads closer to the ground are a warren with poor parking with many local residents far from happy with the current situation never mind a future scenario of 20,000 turning up(be that on a very rare occasion)

Points taken about Windsor's access and local residents. Car parking can be improved- there is land available within short walking distance of the stadium. Do you have links for the local dissatisfaction (not denying it exists, you tend to it around every ground near housing areas)?

Given that NI had won eight and drawn the other of the last nine home qualifiers before Wednesday, 20,000 crowds for many of them sound quite reasonable. Of course results may fall away in EC 2012, these things tend to be cyclical for smaller countries. But 20,000 capacity for a projected average crowd of 15,000 sounds reasonable to me.


I dont think that I mentioned the Maze

No, but it's crucial to the debate. The white elephant in the room, if you like ;)

We were told that the Maze (which everyone accepts would have cost well over £100 million was a done deal and inevitable. There are no plans for any new stadia in north Belfast bar Crues' projected move next door into the Grove.


So tough s**t on them? hardly an inclusive policy to be adopting

You what? I said I was confident many of them could be persuaded to come along. So basically the opposite of "tough ****" ...


Glens fans, reds fans etc etc. It's the lack of inclusiveness

Most Glens and Reds fans are quite content to watch club games at Windsor, and indeed international matches if they are NI fans. So what exactly is your evidence for "lack of inclusiveness"?


The biggest league game of the season wont fill it never mind one on a wet Tuesday evening against Dungannon (no offence Dungannon)? How often does NI play against the likes of England or Spain, maybe a few times more than usual recently but you really think that it's an efficient use of resources to enlarge the place for the odd match every few years

The stadium will be improved to make it suitable for bigger crowds at internationals (see above for likely demand in recent seasons), cup finals and big two derbies. Away fans brought by Dungannon are irrelevant (again, no offence), so why mention them?


Yes it is -a waste of scant resources which would be better off going elsewhere

I've explained above that you are not comparing like with like. £20 million wouldn't fully clean up the North Foreshore, let alone build a stadium on it.


We will wait and see how that turns out. If the IFA's track record is anything to go by, 100 year contarcs and the like, I wouldn't hold my breath

I doubt anything will happen quickly, apparently Stormont isn't likely to consider any detailed plans until the end of this year, so God knows when any building work will start. And of course there's an economic downturn. But I think you can be reassured that the IFA, Linfield and other parties won't have any more arcane contracts as in the past.


I agree that there will probably be some benefit to all clubs but equitable benefit to all? I can see Linfireld still getting the lions share of any benefits so cementing their hegemony

I didn't say it would be equitable. Assuming you mean equal sums of money, as long as Linfield retain at least part-ownership of Windsor they'll earn more income from it than other clubs. To reflect their maintenance bills and so on.


As it stands Linfield have home advantage for the Irish Cup final as well, I can't see that changing either

It's by far the biggest stadium, so of course you'd expect it to host the biggest matches. If Linfield continue to play their home matches in it (whether as owner or not), they'll have an advantage. But of course their biggest advantage is in having many more fans than any other club.


Agreed, but would hardly need £20m would it?

South Stand and what was the "Family Stand" with the scoreboard are obviously the first priority.

KOP is fine and the North Stand would be the last stage in any redevelopment surely?

Maybe with recent deflation/ stagflation? that cost will fall a bit ;)

I think the broad plan in order of priority is:

1 new build at east end, to replace demolished railway stand
2 demolish and rebuild south stand
3 refurbish existing kop and north stands


No expert on Windsor Park but hasn't there been issues surrounding the roof on the North Stand?

Yes, probably nearing end of its realistic shelf-life without major repair. Over the years I've heard talk of concrete cancer as well. And as for the fixtures and fittings, there are too few toilets etc.

[punkrocket]

I would very much like the North Foreshore to be regenerated. But...the cost would be a lot more than £20 million.


Of course it would be more than that, but the economic long term benefits for the area would make it worthwhile. You've got to speculate to accumulate.


But 20,000 capacity for a projected average crowd of 15,000 sounds reasonable to me.


Yes, results and popularity have been comparatively good over the last couple of campaigns but in very recent living memory results and popularity were dire. There have been occasions during this current good run of form that the ground wasn't full so waht happens when the wheel turns again? I think averages of 15,000 are ambitious.


If not, it's a shame but we'll concentrate on those who do.


Fair enough it's not quite tough s***, but it's hardly reaching out with open arms.


So what exactly is your evidence for "lack of inclusiveness"?


Mostly anecdotal I'm afraid, I personally know a few Glens fans who are also NI fans and they bitterly resent internationals being held at WP as going there would profit Linfield FC. They will go when the Glens play there though to support their team against Linfield. Maybe not the most holistic approach but whilst this is a bit extreme it is understandable. Windsor feels more like Linfield's place more than NI's place. I also know nationalists who will watch NI play on the box but wont go near Windsor but let's not get into all that.


Away fans brought by Dungannon are irrelevant (again, no offence), so why mention them?


I wasn't referring to the away fans likey to attend I was talking about any fans for the less attractive fixtures.


I didn't say it would be equitable. Assuming you mean equal sums of money, as long as Linfield retain at least part-ownership of Windsor they'll earn more income from it than other clubs. To reflect their maintenance bills and so on.


I would have no problem with Linfield getting enough extra to pay the bills but if it is more than that then it discriminates against other clubs.


But of course their biggest advantage is in having many more fans than any other club.


And you dont think that this has anything to do with the success that they have been able to buy for themselves over the years. Man U also seem to have more fans than other clubs for some reason.


I think the broad plan in order of priority is:

1 new build at east end, to replace demolished railway stand
2 demolish and rebuild south stand
3 refurbish existing kop and north stands


Thats the whole ground relaced for £20 million??
I think the south stand is a Bradford type disaster waiting to happen, a bit less so now with the smoking ban.

Any Progress yet Gatherround on the new Seaview?

[Gather round]

Of course it would be more than that, but the economic long term benefits for the area would make it worthwhile. You've got to speculate to accumulate

Indeed, but redeveloping BT3 (whether speculatively or not) for £200 million or whatever doesn't preclude spending £20 million on Windsor Park now. Every notional plan for a new national stadium that I've seen has included a capacity of 20,000- some much more than that. What do you think is a viable figure?


There have been occasions during this current good run of form that the ground wasn't full so waht happens when the wheel turns again? I think averages of 15,000 are ambitious

If results fall away and average crowds fall to 10,000 we'll have a half empty stadium. When results improve again the average will rise. Crowds actually rose during the Euro 2004 qualifying disaster, so I'm confident of the higher figures quoted above.


Fair enough it's not quite tough s***, but it's hardly reaching out with open arms

Actually, it is. I said I was confident fans who have drifted away (whether nationalist background or otherwise) could be enticed back. The Football for All campign (widely documented) and anecdotal evidence from me and other gnarled veterans suggest the atmosphere is better than for decades. I think the onus is on you to suggest what specifically needs to be done to be more welcoming.


Mostly anecdotal I'm afraid, I personally know a few Glens fans who are also NI fans and they bitterly resent internationals being held at WP as going there would profit Linfield FC

I also know one or two who say this, but I don't take it or them particularly seriously. None of them have come up with a compelling better alternative.


Windsor feels more like Linfield's place more than NI's place

Not to me, and I've been going to both club, cup final and international games there since 1970. As I've said above, there are long-term issues about ownership, responsibility for development etc., but these can be resolved.


I also know nationalists who will watch NI play on the box but wont go near Windsor but let's not get into all that

Why not? Let's hear why they won't. If it's because they support the RoI, or don't want to watch a mediocre NI side, that's fine. If it's because they fear a cauldron of sectarian hatred (sorry for the cliche), then frankly there's limited point in rational discussion with them, let alone offering open arms.

If it's somehwere in between (uncomfortableness with flags, anthems etc.) there is room for compromise. Let's hear suggestions?


I wasn't referring to the away fans likey to attend I was talking about any fans for the less attractive fixtures

Even less attractive NI friendlies during a poor run will attract a crowd too big for any other stadium in NI at present. The size of the stadium should reflect projected average and median crowds, not the likely lowest.


I would have no problem with Linfield getting enough extra to pay the bills but if it is more than that then it discriminates against other clubs

Agreed in principle. New contract should resolve hopefully, as mentioned above.


And you dont think that this has anything to do with the success that they have been able to buy for themselves over the years

Yes, I do think Linfield have benefitted more than they might reasonably have done in the past. It's done, let's move on.


Man U also seem to have more fans than other clubs for some reason

Big club in big city; past success; sympathy after Munich deaths; European cups; numerous prem titles. Most of the above achieved before they started hosting England games regularly. Don't see the parallel, to be honest.


Thats the whole ground relaced for £20 million??

Yes, see recent BBC reports.


I think the south stand is a Bradford type disaster waiting to happen, a bit less so now with the smoking ban

Everyone agrees it needs to be replaced. The fire engine on standby is a scare story.


Any Progress yet Gatherround on the new Seaview?

Basic plan is two new 600-seat modular stands for the Shore Road end and social club side of the existing Seaview. If they move elsewhere (say the Grove, or up near the Valley centre as previously suggested) the stands can go too.

Co-ordinator for the project is club director Mark Langhammer who was also a Labour councillor on Newtownabbey BC.

[Mr_Parker]

Most Glens and Reds fans are quite content to watch club games at Windsor, and indeed international matches if they are NI fans. So what exactly is your evidence for "lack of inclusiveness"?



When they visit Windsor they do so as opposition fans and to use their attendance at Windsor to make your point of Windsor being 'inclusive' is misplaced.

Also in response to others, it really hasn't much to do with Anthems or the flag that is flown either. The problem with Windsor for many Nationalists/Catholics is the baggage that comes with it. Wether people want to accept it or not, that is the major problem. The IFA acknowledge that problem existed following research that was carried out by third parties and hence why they were keen to move from Windsor recognising the importance of making following NI more appealing to all. However there was people within the IFA who refused to acknowledge the problem and some who were/are quite happy with the status quo. They have won the day. The chance to make relatively quick progress on changing peoples opinions of the IFA/NI set-up has been lost imo. It will take at least 2 generational changes before they even have a chance to change the minds of those who experienced Windsor during the darker days and have told and 'educated' the next generation.

[Gather round]

When they visit Windsor they do so as opposition fans and to use their attendance at Windsor to make your point of Windsor being 'inclusive' is misplaced

While Cliftonville fans are clearly more likely to support the South, most Glentoran fans support Northern Ireland and almost all NI fans prepared to attend will watch games at Windsor even if they don't like contributing to Linfield. I think the point is fair. Overall, I'm confident that FFA and other efforts are making Windsor (and supporting the NI team generally) more inclusive.


The problem with Windsor for many Nationalists/Catholics is the baggage that comes with it. Wether people want to accept it or not, that is the major problem

I accept that it's a problem for you (plural); I don't agree that it's reasonable to let that dictate above all other considerations. Windsor both as a venue and a symbol with 'baggage' is not as it was.


The IFA acknowledge that problem existed following research that was carried out by third parties and hence why they were keen to move from Windsor recognising the importance of making following NI more appealing to all

The IFA bought the bullsh*t about a 'free' build at Long Kesh, ignoring what a huge majority of fans (ie, their constituency) thought. A stadium there- ruinously expensive, inaccessible, poor facilities, pointlessly twice as large as necessary- would have been more appealing to basically nobody actually wanting to go to matches.


However there was people within the IFA who refused to acknowledge the problem and some who were/are quite happy with the status quo. They have won the day

I doubt anybody is happy with the statuo quo- a ramshackle, inadequate stadium. Many- including me- would actually have preferred an alternative venue close to Belfast city centre, but both the absence of any detailed plans, and the current recession, both make that unrealistic at the moment.


The chance to make relatively quick progress on changing peoples opinions of the IFA/NI set-up has been lost imo

What specifically do you think would have tangibly changed those opinions? The Maze? Another site in Belfast? Something more imaginative?


It will take at least 2 generational changes before they even have a chance to change the minds of those who experienced Windsor during the darker days and have told and 'educated' the next generation

You're ruling out any change of attitude for 50 years? Why so confident of your pessimism? We're talking about a better atmosphere at football matches, not realigning the map of Europe...

[galwayjames]

Leaving everything else aside, Windsor would be a more than adequate stadium for NI if the Railway End was developed and the North Stand too. I'm not sure the Kop Stand needs to be redeveloped though, or the South Stand.

[Gather round]

Leaving everything else aside, Windsor would be a more than adequate stadium for NI if the Railway End was developed and the North Stand too. I'm not sure the Kop Stand needs to be redeveloped though, or the South Stand

James- are you reversing the North and South stands here? The South is the much older and more ramshackle.

[Mr_Parker]

While Cliftonville fans are clearly more likely to support the South, most Glentoran fans support Northern Ireland and almost all NI fans prepared to attend will watch games at Windsor even if they don't like contributing to Linfield. I think the point is fair. Overall, I'm confident that FFA and other efforts are making Windsor (and supporting the NI team generally) more inclusive.

Your point was that by their attendance at Windsor in some ways proves the 'inclusiveness' which it patently does not.


I accept that it's a problem for you (plural); I don't agree that it's reasonable to let that dictate above all other considerations. Windsor both as a venue and a symbol with 'baggage' is not as it was.

Yes but my point was regardless of what changes have happened the perception still exists.


The IFA bought the bullsh*t about a 'free' build at Long Kesh, ignoring what a huge majority of fans (ie, their constituency) thought. A stadium there- ruinously expensive, inaccessible, poor facilities, pointlessly twice as large as necessary- would have been more appealing to basically nobody actually wanting to go to matches.

A huge majority? The only research the IFA carried out was done on their behalf by PWC which found that the majority of the public favoured a move. There was no survey of 'their constituency' as you put it.

I doubt anybody is happy with the statuo quo- a ramshackle, inadequate stadium. Many- including me- would actually have preferred an alternative venue close to Belfast city centre, but both the absence of any detailed plans, and the current recession, both make that unrealistic at the moment.

There was an alternative and it was rejected.

What specifically do you think would have tangibly changed those opinions? The Maze? Another site in Belfast? Something more imaginative?

Anything but Windsor tbh.

You're ruling out any change of attitude for 50 years? Why so confident of your pessimism? We're talking about a better atmosphere at football matches, not realigning the map of Europe...

When it comes to the inbuilt attitudes of people here and how they pass that to their children it would be easier to deal with the realigning the map of Europe imo.

.....

[Gather round]

Your point was that by their attendance at Windsor in some ways proves the 'inclusiveness' which it patently does not

My point was that it suggested that inclusiveness, not that it proved anything. I think Windsor- and watching NI games generally- is welcoming and inclusive, although I accept that you disagree.


Yes but my point was regardless of what changes have happened the perception still exists

Again, I accept that. Apologies if I put words in your mouth, but if you are suggesting that watching matches at Windsor is widely perceived to be just like 10, 20 or 40 years ago then I suggest- based on personal experience throughout- that the perception is wrong and unreasonable.


A huge majority? The only research the IFA carried out was done on their behalf by PWC which found that the majority of the public favoured a move. There was no survey of 'their constituency' as you put it

I know a wider public opinion survey suggested enthusiasm for a new stadium in the middle of nowhere. Not that the vanity stadium would have been free, of course- the inevitable hundreds of millions for building costs, access routes etc. wasn't to be donated as a gift by some philanthropic billionaire.

You must know that Northern Ireland fans- the ones who actually go and want to keep going to matches- were at least 80% opposed to the Maze site. Maybe you'll dismiss this as anecdotal and them as a self-selecting sample, no matter. The IFA's 'consultation' of wider public opinion on a false premise while largely ignoring attending fans was a major blunder leading to much time, money and effort wasted.


There was an alternative and it was rejected

It was a dumb alternative and should have been abandoned as soon as its unpopularity was obvious. The other proposed alternatives in the city have been shown to be no more than nominal so far, and we still need a football ground.


Anything but Windsor tbh

Windsor's the only feasible alternative for the foreseeable future. Looks like we agree to differ.


When it comes to the inbuilt attitudes of people here and how they pass that to their children it would be easier to deal with the realigning the map of Europe imo

Speak for yourself. I don't think my attitudes are hidebound and I certainly wouldn't presume that someone in 50 years time would share them, as you seem to be suggesting.

[punkrocket]

I missed this earlier



Danny boy or something like Ireland's Call would do if we can't have my favorites (Alternative Ulster/ Gloria/ Pearly Spencer/ Teenage kicks etc.) :)



With the qualifying record that NI have had for a long while I think that Big time by Rudi would be more appropriate;

" Big time you aint no friend of mi-ine
Big time you aint no friend of mine"

It's got a good terrace stomp to it and all.:cool:

[Gather round]

Ha ha. I remember Rudi, decent band.

You also missed my asking what would be your preferred size stadium for NI to play in. Any thoughts?

[galwayjames]

You also missed my asking what would be your preferred size stadium for NI to play in. Any thoughts?

A 20,000 all-seater stadium should be the one I'd say.

[Gather round]

2,000 or 20,000? ;)

[galwayjames]

2,000 or 20,000? ;)

Oops :o 20,000 of course

[AnnaghRed]

before they even have a chance to change the minds of those who experienced Windsor during the darker days

The "darker days" as in the World cup qualifier v's scotland played under threat of a mortar attack from the provos c1981?

[Mr_Parker]

You must know that Northern Ireland fans- the ones who actually go and want to keep going to matches- were at least 80% opposed to the Maze site. Maybe you'll dismiss this as anecdotal and them as a self-selecting sample, no matter. The IFA's 'consultation' of wider public opinion on a false premise while largely ignoring attending fans was a major blunder leading to much time, money and effort wasted.

That is the biggest fallacy that has been put across in this debate over the last few years. This is not an issue that only 'belongs' to those who go to NI games. This is about what is best for the IFA as a whole. It is an issue that effects every strand of the IFA football family ie those that actually have a stake in football here.



Speak for yourself. I don't think my attitudes are hidebound and I certainly wouldn't presume that someone in 50 years time would share them, as you seem to be suggesting.

I am not speaking for myself. Previous research has clearly demonstrated that this is the case.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Obviously the IFA are just going to preach to the 'converted' by this move.
They and some of their fanbase claim they're 'open to all', but by not moving they're going to guarantee certain parties would only ever set foot in there, reluctantly at best, if at all.
Maybe they should look at the bigger picture as MP says and try to incorporate the views of as many people as possible, rather than just 15-20k football fans who after all only represent 1% of the population!
That would also include rugby and GAA fans also!

If they want to widen their appeal then they'll have to move to a 'neutral' area....
Besides the usual issues regarding their flag, anthem and certain 'attitudes' of their fanbase.

[backstothewall]

Whilst the opinions of NI fans are abviously important, they are not the be all and end all. Any new stadium will be built will also be used for Rugby and other sports, as well as concerts etc. Whilst I don't support NI, quite the opposite in fact, as one of the taxpayers who will be paying for this venture, I don't really care what NI fans want, and think my opinion should carry exactly the same weight as Raymond Kennedy. If they want a stadium to suit themselves, they should pay for it themselves. In the meantime the IFA is only a customer with no where else to shop.

Windsor simply isn't suitable, for several reasons.

1. The political stuff. I'm not going to repeat it, we all know the issues.
2. Its a security nightmare. My brother is a cop who was working the Poland game. The area it is in has to many alleyways etc to control a football riot, and given the unfortunate rise of hooliganism in Eastern Europe, this has to be considered. The potential for a(nother) mass riot between Linfield and the Glens at a future Irish Cup final is also an issue.
3. Parking. Its in the middle of an old housing estate. It is hard enough to get parked on a Wednesday afternoon, never mind if 20,000 people are trying to get parked.

There is no shortage of alternative sites owned by Belfast City Council. 2 I would suggest are either Musgrave Park or Boucher Road playing fields. these sites have several advantages over Windsor

1. Politcal issues solved
2. Excellent transport links. Both are situated between the M1 and Railway line. There is also thousands of parking spaces along Boucher Road.
3. As they are essentially greenfield sites, a brand new stadium could be thrown up quite easily. There would be no difficulties with scheduling matches during construction, and it would almost certainly work out cheaper. Liberty Stadium in Swansea for example was built in 2005 for only £27m
4. As is fairly obvious soccer/rugby isn't ideal on a pitch big enough for GAA. but given the proximity of both sites to casement park a lot of the infrastructure can be shared between the 2 stadiums.

Completely agree with what was said about the Brandywell. One day soon the FAI and IFA should start thinking about a joint bid for the European championships. with Landsowne Rd, Croke PArk, Thomond Park, a stadium in Belfast and a new Brandywell, we would be well on the way to having the facilities.

Once the new road to Derry is built the area around Aughnacloy will be about and hour away from Belfast, Derry and Dublin. Instead of building a 50m pool in Bangor, or making UUJ the sports campus for the north, for example, our governments should be working together to put all our sports facilities on one site within an hour of over 3m people. Between us (post recission) we could afford to have the likes of a velodrome, another pool, a rowing lake, an athletics stadium and all sorts of facilities for watersports, boxing etc. It would also be a great economic boost for South Tyrone, Armagh and North Monaghan. All areas which could do with it

[ArdeeBhoy]

A lot of common sense spoken there BTW.
So expect a long-winded objection from the usual suspects....

Ultimately it should be down to Northern/Irish taxpayers, as you say!
But a 'Joint' ventures facilities plan is a great idea.

However with a joint stadiums bid, knowing as we do how Inertia works at the planning stage in Ireland (and currently involving two seperate political jurisdictions) I wouldn't be too optimistic for the next 20 years or so.
Maybe a bid for 2032??

[ifk101]

So the common sense suggestion is for the Irish government to spend money that it does not have in sporting facilities located in another political jurisdiction. :D

Anyways seems to be plenty of (letter writing) opposition to the upgrading of Windsor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/8253315.stm

[Mr_Parker]

So the common sense suggestion is for the Irish government to spend money that it does not have in sporting facilities located in another political jurisdiction. :D

They have in the past (and not just sporting venues) so why not in the future?

[ifk101]

They have in the past (and not just sporting venues) so why not in the future?

Negligible sums of money in comparison to what's been suggested and in the context of the current economic climate, no?

[punkrocket]

...what would be your preferred size stadium for NI to play in. Any thoughts?

I actually think that internationals could be played at a 25,000 seater stadium, but only if that stadium isn't Windsor. By leaving Windsor and going for a new build you will be able to attract the extra people and also make it more economically sustainable by having it available for other uses as said elsewhere. A well designed modern stadium can be used for a number of uses, and I'm leaving aside the rugby/gaelic games issue here, and could also have lower running costs whilst integrating technologies such as renewables and low carbon design(a consideration which is going to be more pressing for everyone whether we like it or not before too long) rather than trying to retrofit a badly located relic like Windsor.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So the common sense suggestion is for the Irish government to spend money that it does not have in sporting facilities located in another political jurisdiction. :D


Aye, but it's not as if they haven't wasted plenty of € in recent times, say to indirectly supply the public with plasma TVs, rather than build something concrete.....
And would be a statement of 'good faith' to the Northern population from Dublin.

[ifk101]

And would be a statement of 'good faith' to the Northern population from Dublin.

That's already been made - improved road and rail links from the border down to Dublin ensures speedy access to all the wee ones' sporting facility needs. Cead mille failte.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Actually IfK was hoping they could make a token contribution to a new stadium in the North, if only as it could be then used to bid possibly for major events and to promote the whole of Ireland which they would also be expected to promote.

[ifk101]

Actually IfK was hoping they could make a token contribution to a new stadium in the North, if only as it could be then used to bid possibly for major events and to promote the whole of Ireland which they would also be expected to promote.

Fair enough. But as finances are stretched at the moment, do you think they would accept Morton Stadium as our token contribution for the time being?

[Gather round]

That is the biggest fallacy that has been put across in this debate over the last few years. This is not an issue that only 'belongs' to those who go to NI games. This is about what is best for the IFA as a whole. It is an issue that effects every strand of the IFA football family ie those that actually have a stake in football here

Where the NI football team plays is obviously more important to those who watch it play than to public opinion as a whole. Of course I accept that specific groups such as local residents have a crucial interest. What's best for the IFA as a whole is that we have an adequate stadium that fans want to visit, that doesn't incovenience everyone else and which is affordable. So no fallacy. If you want to co-own the issue (or express an opinion, as I'd put it), fine. You can't reasonably expect universal agreement.


I am not speaking for myself. Previous research has clearly demonstrated that this is the case

Do you have links for this research? Genuine question, I'd like to read it. It's just that studies based on what people will think in 50 years' time strike me less as research, more clairvoyancy.


Obviously the IFA are just going to preach to the 'converted' by this move

I don't think so. While almost all NI fans I know were opposed to the Maze plan, many (including me) would have preferred a new site close to Belfast city centre, as detailed above and on previous threads. No such site attracted serious interest for development, then the recession kicked in. The redevelopment of Windsor is seen as less than ideal but realistic by many of us.


They and some of their fanbase claim they're 'open to all', but by not moving they're going to guarantee certain parties would only ever set foot in there, reluctantly at best, if at all

The IFA and NI fans are guaranteeing nothing of the sort. If 'certain parties' continue to boycott Windsor that's a shame. Let's move on.


Maybe they should look at the bigger picture as MP says and try to incorporate the views of as many people as possible, rather than just 15-20k football fans who after all only represent 1% of the population!
They (the IFA) have done. Their commitment to the Maze plan was foolish, but it could have been worse- not as if we wasted £100 million building the thing. Since then, as I said above, no one has actually been able to put up a sustainable bid for a new build elsewhere in the city. If anyone had done so, we might now be looking at building work in say, the brownfield/ ex-leisure centre area of Ormeau Park.

The ways to incorporate wider views as you suggest are clear enough, and haven't been ignored. To build a stadium in the city, you also need planning consent and co-operation from local residents. business etc. To spend tens of millions on new facilities, you need to get elected in the first place. If those facilities are ludicrously wasteful, as a local politician you can expect not to be re-elected.

As for the 1% dig, clearly far more than that support the NI football. Almost certainly far more than the proportion of the electorate who will decide how to vote based mainly on whether Windsor closes or not.


That would also include rugby and GAA fans also!

The GAA and IRFU were consulted. Clearly they weren't that bothered. Presumably because neither of them feel they need a new stadium at the Maze, in Nelfast or anywhere else.


If they want to widen their appeal then they'll have to move to a 'neutral' area....

They are widening their appeal; there is clearly a limit beyond which attempting to widen it further is pointless; I've explained above why no such 'neutral' area has been identified.


Besides the usual issues regarding their flag, anthem and certain 'attitudes' of their fanbase

If you don't like their 'attitudes' (basically, that they identify with NI and support its football team), you clearly fall beyond the limit above. You aren't ever going to support NI: if you want to influence planning and development in Belfast city, move there and vote. Otherwise, you are just trolling?


Whilst the opinions of NI fans are abviously important, they are not the be all and end all

On the issue of whether Windsor should be abandoned, they are pretty much the be all and end all. It's a public facility and they are clearly identifiable as the people who use it. Any inconveneience that causes for other people is a factor, but we're not really arguing about that, are we?

Obviously building a new multi-use stadium is a separate and wider issue.


Any new stadium will be built will also be used for Rugby and other sports, as well as concerts etc.

See above. Rugby and other sports don't need a new stadium, evidence being their lack on interest in lobbying for one, development of their exisiting facilities etc.

Is Belfast really short of an outdoor concert venue? If you don't like Windsor, wouldn't Casement or Ravenhill or the Botanic Gardens do? I don't watch much stadium rock these days, but I'd have guessed that any act likely to fill a stadium would be far more likely just to play Croke (or Lansdowne when it re-opens) in Ireland.


as one of the taxpayers who will be paying for this venture, I don't really care what NI fans want, and think my opinion should carry exactly the same weight as Raymond Kennedy

Your opinion does carry that same weight as Kennedy's. You want a new stadium in Belfast? Fine, vote and lobby your councillors and MLAs for it. Prefer to leave Windsor ramshackle? Ditto.


If they want a stadium to suit themselves, they should pay for it themselves. In the meantime the IFA is only a customer with no where else to shop

Obviously they should lobby for what their customers want, including public money. I believe there will be public support for this investment, even if the choice of other developers at which to shop has been slashed by the recession. OK, it won't be 100% public support, but this is Northern Ireland after all...


Windsor simply isn't suitable, for several reasons

Interesting points about security and access. I think these are less of a problem than you suggest. Car parking does need improvement, but Windsor is within walking distance of the centre (two miles). Without being trite about the riot at the Poland game, those kicking it off would have been able to find the necessary dark alleys somewhere else if they wanted. And in crude cost terms we can't reasonably plan a football stadium in Belfast on the basis that Polish/ English/ whoever's hooligans visit once every five years. I expect your brother reassured you that most other recent internationals/ cup fianls/ big two derbies have passed off largely preacefully?


There is no shortage of alternative sites owned by Belfast City Council. 2 I would suggest are either Musgrave Park or Boucher Road playing fields. these sites have several advantages over Windsor

Why haven't these sites been discussed along with Ormeau Park/ Mays Field/ North Foreshore/ Blanchflower Park etc.? Again, genuine question.

Personally, I'd have little problem with a stadium at one end of Boucher Road rather than the other. Even if I don't share your confidence that it would solve the political issues. As for infrastructure for GAA matches- you've already got that a mile away at Casement. £27 million is a lot more than £20 million (assuming that new build costs would be similar to Swansea's).
Strictly speaking, aren't the other Boucher Road sites brownfield (ie previously used for industry/ warehousing etc.)?


One day soon the FAI and IFA should start thinking about a joint bid for the European championships. with Landsowne Rd, Croke PArk, Thomond Park, a stadium in Belfast and a new Brandywell, we would be well on the way to having the facilities

Ha ha. Dublin is already getting a UEFA cup final; the South could quite easily host the U-21 tournament (LoI grounds with a showpiece final), the U-19 in 2005 went well, hopefully Brandywell will be redeveloped. But...there's about as much chance of the senior European championships happening in Ireland as of San Marino playing in them.


Between us (post recission) we could afford to have the likes of a velodrome, another pool, a rowing lake, an athletics stadium and all sorts of facilities for watersports, boxing etc

Beautifully evocative description. But if you want 3,000,000 people to use facilities, you don't put them in Aughnacloy. Much as I love it, it's a rural village.


Anyways seems to be plenty of (letter writing) opposition to the upgrading of Windsor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...sh/8253315.stm

Surely it's opposition to the sweetheart contract between Linfield and the IFA? Which would go as part of any deal to refurb Windsor? Sounds like half-hearted whinging by Glentoran to me.


could also have lower running costs whilst integrating technologies such as renewables and low carbon design(a consideration which is going to be more pressing for everyone whether we like it or not before too long)

The refurb of Windsor would involve two entirely new stands. I don't pretend to understand the engineering, but why can't they incorporate that new technology?

[Gather round]

By leaving Windsor and going for a new build you will be able to attract the extra people and also make it more economically sustainable by having it available for other uses as said elsewhere

What other uses? Other sports already have their facilities, and are developing them (suggesting less than wholehearted commitment to new build). U2 and REM or whoever today's youth go to see aren't going to play Belfast four or five times a year just to justify a vanity project stadium.

[punkrocket]

What other uses? Other sports already have their facilities, and are developing them (suggesting less than wholehearted commitment to new build). U2 and REM or whoever today's youth go to see ...

Rudi to reform then?

[punkrocket]

I don't pretend to understand the engineering, but why can't they incorporate that new technology?

For some technologies location is crucial. A stadium built with a wind turbine at each corner for example, would work very well on a windy lough side like the north foreshore but not at windsor where getting planning permission would also be difficlut if not impossible.
There are a whole range of technologies which work better for a bespoke structure than retro fitting an existing one although a new south stand at windsor could indeed take advantage of it's south facing aspect. Other technologies could also be retrofitted but will never be as efficient or economical as a new build project.
I was also talking about the flexibility in useage of a new stadium, a retractable roof increases the range of possible uses, banks of seating can be added or removed as necessary for spectator/ participants demands etc etc. In Japan theres a stadium where the whole pitch slides outside on a big shelf!! There are lots of possiblities.
Better design can mean the stadium can be used by a a wider range of people and therefore more of an asset for everyone. Concerts are only one idea, what about horse shows, exhibitions, conferences, mad men jumping over burning things in cars with big wheels etc etc. I don't know the point is that windsor will only ever have a very limited utility to a very limited set of people on a very limited number of occasions and a well designed stadium could be used much more regularly by a wider range of people(taxpayers).
A north foreshore stadium would be a fantastic sight for anyone coming down the hill into belfast on the M2.

[Gather round]

There are a whole range of technologies which work better for a bespoke structure than retro fitting an existing one although a new south stand at windsor could indeed take advantage of it's south facing aspect. Other technologies could also be retrofitted but will never be as efficient or economical as a new build project

Thanks. I accept that any new structure will have some engineering, energy conservation and other advantages over an existing building. But think of the new stands at Windsor as a halfway house between shoring up ramshackle facilities and an entirely new build.


I was also talking about the flexibility in useage of a new stadium, a retractable roof increases the range of possible uses, banks of seating can be added or removed as necessary for spectator/ participants demands etc etc. In Japan theres a stadium where the whole pitch slides outside on a big shelf!! There are lots of possiblities. Better design can mean the stadium can be used by a a wider range of people and therefore more of an asset for everyone. Concerts are only one idea, what about horse shows, exhibitions, conferences, mad men jumping over burning things in cars with big wheels etc etc. I don't know the point is that windsor will only ever have a very limited utility to a very limited set of people on a very limited number of occasions and a well designed stadium could be used much more regularly by a wider range of people(taxpayers)

Belfast doesn't need (ie, there's no real demand for) an equivalent to Wembley, Cardiff Millennium or anything state of the art in Japan. All the events you mention can be staged either in exisiting facilities or in Windsor after redevelopment. Or even in other stadia. Any notional new stadium would therefore have little, if any greater utility than Windsor.


A north foreshore stadium would be a fantastic sight for anyone coming down the hill into belfast on the M2

Indeed, though that's hardly a compelling reason to build one. A hologram on advertising hoarding would be a lot cheaper.

[punkrocket]

What was the last time that windsor was used for any purpose other than a football match?


A hologram on advertising hoarding would be a lot cheaper

Cheaper aint always better.

[backstothewall]

On the issue of whether Windsor should be abandoned, they are pretty much the be all and end all. It's a public facility and they are clearly identifiable as the people who use it. Any inconveneience that causes for other people is a factor, but we're not really arguing about that, are we?

They may well be the people who use it, and who will continue to use it, but they are not the people who will be payingto replace it. They are asking the state to do it and there isn't many votes in this project, especially in the middle of a recession. There are bitter pills to be swallowed on water rates etc and this work will have to be done in the middle of hard times ahead


Obviously building a new multi-use stadium is a separate and wider issue.

If by multi-sport you want to include GAA, as a republican i happily admit it is a non-runner. Pitch dimensions make it impossible, It would be cheaper to build 2 stadiums


See above. Rugby and other sports don't need a new stadium, evidence being their lack on interest in lobbying for one, development of their exisiting facilities etc.

I disagree about rugby. Ravenhill is like a club ground compared to stadia like liberty stadium and Thomond Park. The Ulster branch are sticking with Ravenhill but if there is a 20,000 - 25,000 stadium in Belfast they would be insane not to use it Heineken cup games etc. We might also get the odd Ireland game once the deal with Aviva runs out and we are capable of having one without a squabble over anthems


Is Belfast really short of an outdoor concert venue? If you don't like Windsor, wouldn't Casement or Ravenhill or the Botanic Gardens do? I don't watch much stadium rock these days, but I'd have guessed that any act likely to fill a stadium would be far more likely just to play Croke (or Lansdowne when it re-opens) in Ireland.

It certainly is short of one. Casement isn't suitable given its lack of seating, the Odyssey is too small for the U2's and Metallica's of this world. I see no reason at all why they wouldn't come to Belfast.



Your opinion does carry that same weight as Kennedy's. You want a new stadium in Belfast? Fine, vote and lobby your councillors and MLAs for it. Prefer to leave Windsor ramshackle? Ditto.

I would prefer leaving Windsor ramshackle to fixing it. Ultimately although I want the best for my city I won't loose much sleep over Northern Ireland fans watching a match in a wooden stand with a fire engine out back



Obviously they should lobby for what their customers want, including public money. I believe there will be public support for this investment, even if the choice of other developers at which to shop has been slashed by the recession. OK, it won't be 100% public support, but this is Northern Ireland after all...

This is Northern Ireland, and if this proposal is going to go ahead it must go through the executive/assembly, which means Sinn Fein signing off on it. I can't see their voters being happy at millions going to repair Windsor Park



Interesting points about security and access. I think these are less of a problem than you suggest. Car parking does need improvement, but Windsor is within walking distance of the centre (two miles). Without being trite about the riot at the Poland game, those kicking it off would have been able to find the necessary dark alleys somewhere else if they wanted. And in crude cost terms we can't reasonably plan a football stadium in Belfast on the basis that Polish/ English/ whoever's hooligans visit once every five years. I expect your brother reassured you that most other recent internationals/ cup fianls/ big two derbies have passed off largely preacefully?

He has seen no violence apart from that game, although sectarianism remains a serious issue amongst your fans. He has only very nice things to say about your players, and got to hold the World Cup when it was over for the Wales game (jammy wee ****e).

The point about taking the stadium out of an area like the village is that there are no alleyways to hid in. Most modern stadiums have very little around them for a couple of hundred yards. If you have organised rioting such as is an issue in England they will arrange to meet somewhere and get down to it, but it takes 2 to tango and, for all their faults, I don't think that is an issue with NI fans. Which is why the Poland riots were mainly between the cops and the poles. Most of your fans, with a few exceptions, got themselves offside when they saw what was heppening. If that riot had been on an open piece of ground it would have been contained much quicker and easier by the police.



Why haven't these sites been discussed along with Ormeau Park/ Mays Field/ North Foreshore/ Blanchflower Park etc.? Again, genuine question.

I have no idea, they seem like the most obvious sites in the world to me, and Belfast Council own them both



Personally, I'd have little problem with a stadium at one end of Boucher Road rather than the other. Even if I don't share your confidence that it would solve the political issues. As for infrastructure for GAA matches- you've already got that a mile away at Casement. £27 million is a lot more than £20 million (assuming that new build costs would be similar to Swansea's).

aww come on, even to 'our wee government' £7m is loose change. Just last week they found more than that for SPED because that fat f*cker Nolan was yapping on about SPED running out of cash


Strictly speaking, aren't the other Boucher Road sites brownfield (ie previously used for industry/ warehousing etc.)?

Most of it is but the 2 i mentioned are council owned parks. One of them is football pitches which i doubt are ever used given their location in the middle of an industrial estate.


Ha ha. Dublin is already getting a UEFA cup final; the South could quite easily host the U-21 tournament (LoI grounds with a showpiece final), the U-19 in 2005 went well, hopefully Brandywell will be redeveloped. But...there's about as much chance of the senior European championships happening in Ireland as of San Marino playing in them.

We couldn't do a worse job than Ukraine-Poland. you would be surprised what we could do between us.



Beautifully evocative description. But if you want 3,000,000 people to use facilities, you don't put them in Aughnacloy. Much as I love it, it's a rural village.

Its a rural village 3m people can drive to after work, put in 3 hours training and be in the house for 11pm. Its signifigance is it will be a rural village with 3 motorways going into it. Someone will take advantage of that fact. If sport doesn't grab it it will be turned into another massive miles from anywhere retail park.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I don't think so. While almost all NI fans I know were opposed to the Maze plan, many (including me) would have preferred a new site close to Belfast city centre, as detailed above and on previous threads. No such site attracted serious interest for development, then the recession kicked in. The redevelopment of Windsor is seen as less than ideal but realistic by many of us.

The IFA and NI fans are guaranteeing nothing of the sort. If 'certain parties' continue to boycott Windsor that's a shame. Let's move on.

They (the IFA) have done. Their commitment to the Maze plan was foolish, but it could have been worse- not as if we wasted £100 million building the thing. Since then, as I said above, no one has actually been able to put up a sustainable bid for a new build elsewhere in the city. If anyone had done so, we might now be looking at building work in say, the brownfield/ ex-leisure centre area of Ormeau Park.

The ways to incorporate wider views as you suggest are clear enough, and haven't been ignored. To build a stadium in the city, you also need planning consent and co-operation from local residents. business etc. To spend tens of millions on new facilities, you need to get elected in the first place. If those facilities are ludicrously wasteful, as a local politician you can expect not to be re-elected.

As for the 1% dig, clearly far more than that support the NI football. Almost certainly far more than the proportion of the electorate who will decide how to vote based mainly on whether Windsor closes or not.

The GAA and IRFU were consulted. Clearly they weren't that bothered. Presumably because neither of them feel they need a new stadium at the Maze, in Nelfast or anywhere else.

They are widening their appeal; there is clearly a limit beyond which attempting to widen it further is pointless; I've explained above why no such 'neutral' area has been identified.

If you don't like their 'attitudes' (basically, that they identify with NI and support its football team), you clearly fall beyond the limit above. You aren't ever going to support NI: if you want to influence planning and development in Belfast city, move there and vote. Otherwise, you are just trolling?


They are preaching to the converted, as in your synopsis any new stadium will be designed with the North's fans in mind, which conflicts in these days of pragmatic austerity which would surely mean it will have to have other uses beyond a venue for a German aristocracy tribute song a few times a year.

So to this end a ground with, er, 'wider' appeal (In your case, you'd favour surely ??) and with modern facilties/access isn't going to easily happen at Linfield, unless of course they make a few locals homeless?

There are other reasons as Btw has correctly identified, not least that there are other sites with much less population to be charmed into an alternative venue, as no-one is, er, living there! If he can readily identify these so easily, then I'm sure the local politicians can too.

Why the resistance to a new multi-purpose stadium anyway;it's going to be built largely out of public funds, which are only ever going to sanction more diverse use.
And that should be beyond the 1% of their population of the North, who are currently actually able to watch them in person......

Which means The IRFU & concerts are liable to be incorporated for the reasons given above, in the main by Btw.
If the North want to improve their 'legitimacy', they should be mindful of making their 'national' stadium open to all, as the IFA claim the team are. But the fans are the ones who seem paranoid towards virtually any kind of change!

As for living in the North and voting for an alternative venue there are those who are better qualified, but I'm not trolling.
Why should I care about dubious Norwegians anyway, unless of course you are talking about Tony Capaldi??

[Mr_Parker]

Where the NI football team plays is obviously more important to those who watch it play than to public opinion as a whole. Of course I accept that specific groups such as local residents have a crucial interest. What's best for the IFA as a whole is that we have an adequate stadium that fans want to visit, that doesn't incovenience everyone else and which is affordable. So no fallacy. If you want to co-own the issue (or express an opinion, as I'd put it), fine. You can't reasonably expect universal agreement.
What is 'obviously more important' is what is best for football ie the IFA in ensuring its best interests in the longer term. That includes all parties within their umbrella. The GAWA is only but one element of it.



Do you have links for this research? Genuine question, I'd like to read it. It's just that studies based on what people will think in 50 years' time strike me less as research, more clairvoyancy.



Enjoy living in your bubble.

Just do a google and you with find lots of research.

[punkrocket]

Belfast doesn't need (ie, there's no real demand for)......anything state of the art

Yes as BTW says there is most certainly a demand for this size of venue in Belfast. Building state of the art means that you can taylor make it to any spec you want and have it to the highest standard (finances permitting) possible. If you want to design it with an athletics track under the front rows which can be retracted when needed, then these things are possible. A brand new multi use stadium would be a great boost to all the local builders who are twiddling their thumbs at the moment and really give the economy a timely kick. A bit of ambition is needed here instead of accepting second best, which is what a tarted up windsor park would be.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Enjoy living in your bubble.

Just do a google and you will find lots of research.

Don't worry MP, he enjoys that bubble. One size fits all!