Ireland V South Africa - Tuesday, 8th September 2009 - Friendly - Thomond Park

[Stuttgart88]

Did anyone see Gibson's hands as Lawrence struck the free? I couldn't tell if he raised them in anticipation of the goal, or in frustration that LL took the free directly rather than lay it off to Gibson. I think it was the latter.

[thepiedpiper]

Did anyone see Gibson's hands as Lawrence struck the free? I couldn't tell if he raised them in anticipation of the goal, or in frustration that LL took the free directly rather than lay it off to Gibson. I think it was the latter.
He was raising them to complain that SA fella had ran from wall again.

[Stuttgart88]

He was raising them to complain that SA fella had ran from wall again.

yeah, that was probably it. Good point.

[paul_oshea]

lads can i get on rte.ie

[geysir]

yeah, that was probably it. Good point.

Not probably but most definitely.
How on earth could you have gone for the least likely option in the first place.

[paul_oshea]

i mean anyone know a stream

[Tipp Townie]

Nolan didn't unimpress if you know what I mean but didn't do much to catch the eye either

I dunno, i really thought Nolan looked quite poor i'm sorry to say.

I suppose in terms of defensive organisation we did well as a unit, which he was a part of. But i remember about 4 occasions where he had the ball in quite a comfortable position and contrived to lose it either with poor control/awareness or a bad pass.

[Keen2win]

So was yer man that ran on when we scored wearing a Celtic or Shamrock Rovers jersey?

[geysir]

Between the 2 full backs, only Kelly pushed himself forward into some reckoning.
Some positive play from him out there as well a few wild passes. At least he got forward and looked competent.

[old git]

Anyone get the attendence?

gave it out on tv as just over 11 thousand :ball:

[centre mid]

11,300

[drummerboy]

I thought that Kelly, SSL and McShane done well at the back, Lawrence in midfield and Doyle was his usual self. Folan battled well: the others all worked tirelessly. O'Dea looked composed when he came on, old head on young shoulders. But the two players I feel really sorry for are Nolan and Keogh.

Nolan is a young player, whose best position is right full. To allow him grow into international football he should be only used at right full.

Keogh has had a few really good games for Wolves in the premiership against teams such as Man city. It is totally unfair to continuously ask him to play out of position all the time, while lesser players such as Best are given more time up front.

Overall a worthwhile exercise which will do a lot to boost the morale of this upcoming squald.

[Wexford Delboy]

nolan looked better than kilbane positionally but terrible at passing, always gave it away

[Murfinator]

From the highlights it seemed like a typical Trap performance. Solid and organised at the back, efficient taking their chances at the front and unimposing in the middle.

This style is getting results but I really fear that some day we'll face a top side who are really up to it, back off them like we did today and get put to the sword by them. Could you imagine backing off Spain like that and letting Xavi and Iniesta do what they please with the ball? :eek:

I'm happy though that we're building depth nicely, we have real talented options in the squad like Lawrence, Folan, Keogh, Hunt who are all premiership starters at the moment.

[strangeirish]

Here's the goal. Don't know how long it'll be up for.

okyZQm00tio

[Crosby87]

The attendance was 11,000? Wow those are Red Bulls numbers. Eww.

[Guidedbyvoices]

The attendance was 11,000? Wow those are Red Bulls numbers. Eww.

What has red bull gotado with football dude?:confused:

[eirebhoy]

Andrews and Gibson anonymous though. Is it always our CM players who are that bad or is it Traps tactics at this stage?
Trap said after the game he was very happy with Gibson so unfortunately Gibson is just doing his job.

It is starting to frustrate me now that our midfielders, particularly, are getting the blame for what is essentially Trap's tactics.

Before the Australia game I was always saying that Gibson needs to go out and do more than his 'job'. But now I just don't blame him. I think when S.Reid is back in the team the tactics will change to keep the ball down on the ground much more. I keep looking back on the performance in Italy, without Reid, to show how much the tactics are playing a part. Because we didn't hit a long ball for 70 minutes that night and our midfield was excellent.

[geysir]

Gibson was tentative but he did peek out a bit in the second half.
It would be grand if he had some of Best's confidence to shoot at will and ask questions later.

We need another name for our version of the staring game catanaccio.

[tetsujin1979]

Westwood: Had nothing to do. Kept a clean sheet. Think he had one shot, and that was straight down his throat.

Kelly: Very disappointing. Never looked comfortable on the ball, rarely found a teammate with a pass (more below)
St Ledger: Sold in defence. Lost the head a few times and charged out at players in possession. Thought he disimproved with O'Dea as a partner
McShane: Far more solid as a centre half than I've ever seen him as a full back
Nolan: Irvine has stated that long term he sees Nolan as a centre half, but he'll learn his trade as a full back. Kilbane has experience on him, but it's a judgement call between them TBH

Lawrence: Fantastic free kick, but he's still fourth choice winger behind Duff, McGeady, and Stephen Hunt
Andrews: Suffered without Whelan, still think A+W is the strongest midfield pairing in the squad we have at the moment
Gibson: The talent is there, but not the desire. Going to be a big season for him if he can't deliver at club level for Fergie
Keogh: Probably the worst player on the pitch, but I forgave him because he's not a winger, and he's certainly not a right winger. He's scored twice under Trapattoni (against Serbia and Nottingham Forest) both times coming through the middle,so why has Trapattoni only started him on the wing??

Folan: Was booed when he went down, and applauded when we all realised it was a genuine serious injury. When Ireland were down to 10 men, we barely made it out of our half. When Folan came back we could have had 3 goals in 10 minutes. Excellent in the air, but ineffective on the deck
Doyle: Worked his socks off. Never stopped running, making himself available for a pass. Genuinely thought he was going to win MOTM, despite Lawrence's goal

Subs:
O'Dea: When he came on, St Ledger moved to the right side and this reduced St Ledger's effectiveness (at least to me). Not a bad game, but nothing to suggest he may become a regular starter, or even substitute
Duff: Replaced the woefully ineffective Keogh. Added some intelligence to the left side, but it seemed like the rest of the team hadn't registered his presence and rarely passed out that direction. When was the last time he came on as a sub??
Best: Excellent cameo, worked hard, made chances, and tried to score at least once. Cemented his place in the squad for me

I genuinely believed that Kelly was the biggest disappointment on the night, until watching the review on RTE 2, when Giles and Dunphy pointed out that Andrews and Gibson didn't give him an out ball. Having realised that, he actually did ok, but still going to be 3rd choice full back behind Finnan (when/if fit) and O'Shea. The lack of match practise definitely showed, I struggled to remember one time in the first half when he looked comfortable in possession. Was much more relaxed in the second half, and tried to make some runs and crosses
Gibson needs to make more of an impact in a game. He's comfortable in possession, and has a hell of a shot, but he never showed for a pass, and didn't make many tackles. Still very much a work in progress, and the completed article may need a move from Old Trafford before it happens
Keogh was atrocious, but I don't blame him for it. He's not a winger, by any stretch of the imagination. He's certainly not a left winger, and he stands on his left foot. Every time the ball came to his left foot, he had to stop to transfer it to his right, and the second or so that this took resulted in lost possession or lost impetus for the team
With Best's cameo, I really do believe he's pushed his way in to the manager's thinking. Loads of movement and positive play. On another night he would have had a hat trick. by far the greatest positive of the night's game

[Scrufil]

I liked the fact that the South Africans played in shirts straight from the design on the Crayola Chalk box. Back to the drawing boards lads and take yer hooters with ye! :D

[jebus]

First time in about a year I've seen Ireland live, a few thoughts

- We play far too narrow, the amount of times the SA wingers were on their own just screaming for the ball to be played to them was shocking, we need to watch this against better sides

- The full backs were dire. They looked terrified when the ball came to them, even though they were obviously just told to hoof it away.

- I like Folan, I think he gives us an extra option

- Good goal and performance from Lawerence

- The centre midfield was garbage as ever

- Doyle shouldn't have been played, he looked knackered

- We can't string more than three passes together without given the ball away. Our players seem to think their job is done as soon as the ball has left their foot, they don't seem to realise they need to show for it and get the ball back if needs be.

- I don't think we'll qualify for the World Cup unless we get an easy playoff fixture. A decent team will pick that formation apart regardless of the players we put out

[endabob1]

First time in about a year I've seen Ireland live, a few thoughts

- We play far too narrow, the amount of times the SA wingers were on their own just screaming for the ball to be played to them was shocking, we need to watch this against better sides

- The full backs were dire. They looked terrified when the ball came to them, even though they were obviously just told to hoof it away.

- I like Folan, I think he gives us an extra option

- Good goal and performance from Lawerence

- The centre midfield was garbage as ever

- Doyle shouldn't have been played, he looked knackered

- We can't string more than three passes together without given the ball away. Our players seem to think their job is done as soon as the ball has left their foot, they don't seem to realise they need to show for it and get the ball back if needs be.

- I don't think we'll qualify for the World Cup unless we get an easy playoff fixture. A decent team will pick that formation apart regardless of the players we put out

I agree with most of that, but I disagree with the last point, I would count Bulgaria & Italy as decent teams who have failed to pick us apart in competitve games. My concern is that it's a formation designed to protect what you have so we will always struggle for goals.

On a seperate point, it's worth noting that Bafana were also quite under-strength last night, 3/4 players missing from what would be their first choice.

[Pauro 76]

So was yer man that ran on when we scored wearing a Celtic or Shamrock Rovers jersey?

Sellthick shirt he was wearing....Nice goal though.

[jbyrne]

This style is getting results but I really fear that some day we'll face a top side who are really up to it, back off them like we did today and get put to the sword by them. Could you imagine backing off Spain like that and letting Xavi and Iniesta do what they please with the ball? :eek:


under previous managers it didnt take top sides to take us apart. i'm sure that trapp would have a plan for the likes of spain. one game at a time and we are light years ahead of where we were two years ago. there is just far too much negativity around the team at the moment. we are second in a decent group (no matter what dunphy said on tv last night about our group) and have a decent chance of reaching the wc...... we need a reality check!

[an_ceannaire]

11,300 tells it own story.....:( there will be 20,000 + there on Friday night for a Magners League game, not a henieken cup game, a magners league game........

[Mayo Red]

- We play far too narrow, the amount of times the SA wingers were on their own just screaming for the ball to be played to them was shocking, we need to watch this against better sides

- We can't string more than three passes together without given the ball away. Our players seem to think their job is done as soon as the ball has left their foot, they don't seem to realise they need to show for it and get the ball back if needs be.


I'd have to agree with you there, we gave their wingers acres of space. South Africa play a neat enough passing game but if they were more willing to give quicker ball, even the odd longer ball into space out to the wingers we could have been in bother. Some of their efforts on goal were terrible aswell, the amount of times they fluffed shots was unbelieveable.

Our own passing game was terrible, ball retention was shocking, I thought Keogh and Nolan were particularly bad with under cooked passes and giving the ball away.

That being said it was a useful workout for more or less our second string with Leon Best looking impressive when he came on. Folan too gives us a different kind of option up front although he won't score many goals.

[elroy]

I am now starting to genuinely believe that the lack of midfield possession is most of our games is as much to do with Traps tactics as it is with the ability of the players. They do not seem to be instructed to play the ball around. It seems to be a case of solid defence of two banks of four, let them play it all around in front of us, then when they lose the ball, we attack quickly usually via a long ball. There were numerous times last night when we won the ball back when the long ball to a sole striker was the only option and a poor one at that, yet we still went for it. Very rarely the midfielders take the ball off the defenders and look to bring in a wide man or the full backs, it is very much a case of long ball and quick.

Call it catenaccio if you like, yes it has worked thus far and i dont think we'll ever concede many with this system. But it can be very frustrating to watch, maybe that why the Italians have won a few WCs and we havent.

[paul_oshea]

has anyone got the game recorded on hard drive and uploaded?!

[centre mid]

Yes but the Italian sides always had great individuals who could make a goal from nothing. We rely very heaviley on the front two to create something at the moment, you need a bit of imagination from midfield also. Hopefully SR will provide a cutting edge when he is fit.

[Drumcondra 69er]

11,300 tells it own story.....:( there will be 20,000 + there on Friday night for a Magners League game, not a henieken cup game, a magners league game........

Tells it's own story about Limerick. It was still a larger attendence then Munster were averaging in the Heneiken cup around 10 years ago.

Don't think Keogh was a bad as some are saying, thought he tracked back well to help out the full back and got some good tackles and blocks in.

Subs were the big plus, Best did well as did O'Dea, Lawrence grew into it after the goal, was quiet until then. Worth remembering that we were down to 10 men for a quarter of the first half which was when they had an awful lot of their possesion.

Happy enough to get a win and build some momentum, roll on next month and fingers crossed for a draw later tonight.

[First]

11,300 tells it own story.....:( there will be 20,000 + there on Friday night for a Magners League game, not a henieken cup game, a magners league game........

There was well over 11300 at this game . I was at both games and the crowd was slightly less than the game v Aus ( I think the attendance was 20k+ for that ). I would estimate there was about 18k in attendance when making comparisons.

Might have to do with all the free tickets that were floating about.

[tetsujin1979]

There was well over 11300 at this game . I was at both games and the crowd was slightly less than the game v Aus ( I think the attendance was 20k+ for that ). I would estimate there was about 18k in attendance when making comparisons.

Might have to do with all the fee tickets that were floating about.

it was 11,300 according to football365. There was no announcement at the game, and no confirmation on fai.ie

just like to to add that for the 5-10 minutes that Folan was off the pitch getting treatment, Ireland played with 10 men for the first time under Trapattoni. We settled into 2 banks of four, one in the penalty area, the next just inside the centre circle, with Doyle staying around the centre circle chasing the opposition defenders. South Africa had the majority of possession for this few minutes, but couldn't work the ball into a scoring position. This was obviously something that had been worked on in training and was pretty heartening to see

[Oink]

under previous managers it didnt take top sides to take us apart. i'm sure that trapp would have a plan for the likes of spain. one game at a time and we are light years ahead of where we were two years ago. there is just far too much negativity around the team at the moment. we are second in a decent group (no matter what dunphy said on tv last night about our group) and have a decent chance of reaching the wc...... we need a reality check!

Spot on, you have to consider the mess we were in when Trap took over and the players we have at our disposal. We have a system finally, it takes time for the players to learn how the system operates and its even harder when you are under pressure to qualify.

The emphasis is to focus on how to not lose the game first, how the team can prevent the opposition from scoring/creating chances. Once the players have this down it becomes instinctive and they can start to exploit the attacking opportunities, knowing when to attack as a team.

It's a difficult process for the fans as the football is hard to watch, but it should be a lot easier to take when you are getting results....

[Duggie]

lads how does lawerence qualify for us ?? whats his connection ?

[Greenbod]

lads how does lawerence qualify for us ?? whats his connection ?

He's Irish.

[Stuttgart88]

Not probably but most definitely.
How on earth could you have gone for the least likely option in the first place.I just saw the replay from behind the ball (where it wasn't that apparent that the SA guy was charging the ball) where as soon as the ball was kicked Gibson was clearly annoyed.

[Stuttgart88]

We need another name for our version of the staring game catanaccio.
Pat-anaccio?

[Scram]

He's Irish.

:D Is that enough??

[Tipp Townie]

Pat-anaccio?

:p Liking that

[Scram]

Do you honestly think that even if we get to SA, that there won't be doom and gloom? Any top side will tear us apart, especially our midfield. Its not like before when the team went for it and got the fans excited about watching the team.

Under Trappatoni the emphasis is on not losing, rather than winning. Which is a fine philosophy for a tight qualifying group, but in a play-off situation or a tournament these tactics won't excite fans and get them behind the team and won't help us progress from the group stages. There has to be a balance. Ireland don't have this balance under Trap.


I can’t believe this…I agree with Weldoninhio !!:confused:

Also, I’m astonished that no matter how obvious it is that our midfield are being destroyed that Trap still does not change. Quite obvious to any opposition that simply deploying a 4-5-1 against us will beat us!

[Stuttgart88]

I actually thought it was quite funny watching us without the ball. We were like a table football team, 4 across the bcak all in a line, 4 across the middle, all in a line and 2 upfront.

Boring as hell, but it works. Only two dreadful errors against Bulgaria mean that we haven't already nailed second.

Keep it tight, score from set pieces. Very Mourinho-esque, just without the star personnel.

I think criticism of the full backs' distribution is harsh. They really didn't have the options. They defended well which was the main thing.

I agree with eirebhoy's assessment. I think Italy away shows that there is another way we can play, but I think Trap thinks if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Stuttgart88]

Funny thing is, if we get to SA I think it'll be like a mini-version of our qualifying group: one star team, one that we could compete well enough against and one team that is probably ranked well below us, maybe a NZ or someone like that. I don't think it's accurate to say that just because it's a WC that the opposition is necessarily all superior. Once you get to the last 16 then it changes.

[DeLorean]

Thought the 2nd half was a big improvement last night. Lawrence looks a good player but then he always impressed me for Stoke anyway, unlike Whelan. I'd seen very little of Best but he looks a good option, not afraid to have a go anyway. Folan hasn't let us down yet either, great attitude. He may have to leave Hull at this stage though as I can't see him getting too many games with Vennegor there now. Gibson needs a kick up the hole at this stage. Tactics or no tactics the guy offers no outlet whatsoever, even in comparison to Whelan or Andrews. He's in the squad ahead of a lot of other guys and it's not on merit, so he'd want to acklowledge that he's living the dream a bit and make an effort.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, I agree with the Gibson assessment, despite Trap’s assertion that he had a great game. By all means be disciplined and follow instructions without the ball, but that doesn’t mean you can’t show the courage & responsibility to take the ball.

It was quite telling for me that the biggest critics of the midfielders’ performance in last 2 games were Giles, Souness, Houghton & Whelan, all players who demanded the ball and used it smartly. I don’t recall them being critical of the system (I could be wrong) just that they wanted more positive involvement from the CMs.

I see no contradiction between having excellent discipline without the ball and wanting to use the ball properly when we have it. Maybe Trap just doesn’t think they have it and that it’s better to lose the ball up the pitch rather than nearer our box.

[endabob1]

I actually thought it was quite funny watching us without the ball. We were like a table football team, 4 across the bcak all in a line, 4 across the middle, all in a line and 2 upfront.

Boring as hell, but it works. Only two dreadful errors against Bulgaria mean that we haven't already nailed second.

Keep it tight, score from set pieces. Very Mourinho-esque, just without the star personnel.

I think we looked very tight, they were moaning on the TV (Here in SA) that they weren't able to get behind us, except the one run from the left full at the end of the first half when he should have pulled it back.
What I liked especially from Lawrence was that when the ball came down his side he dropped into effectively the right full position with Kelly shuffling towards the centre to pick up a runner or a through ball, didn't notice it as much on the left but Keogh is a natural to that position.

[seanfhear]

Do you honestly think that even if we get to SA, that there won't be doom and gloom? Any top side will tear us apart, especially our midfield. Its not like before when the team went for it and got the fans excited about watching the team.

Under Trappatoni the emphasis is on not losing, rather than winning. Which is a fine philosophy for a tight qualifying group, but in a play-off situation or a tournament these tactics won't excite fans and get them behind the team and won't help us progress from the group stages. There has to be a balance. Ireland don't have this balance under Trap.
Jack Charlton also placed major importance on not losing and then seeing if we could manufacture a win.

Maybe these two old geezers(Trap and Charlton) appreciated that this is the best way for us to approach international football. Afterall we are not Holland or Brazil.

[geysir]

Would it be an outrageous idea to play such a game for 20 minutes or so with 10 men?
Like Tets said, it was interesting to see how we adapted.

I was only watching a stream of the game but I really can't see where the heavy criticism of Keogh is coming from. No way should be start a competitive game on the wing but at a minimum it was useful experience for him and for us.

Right now I wouldn't be at all fearful if Lawrence was started at RM. Not saying he should but he would have been capable of playing there against Italy away.

[Jicked]

I love how as the months tick on the critics have gone from saying we'd be destroyed by Italy and Bulgaria, to still not qualifying, to now it's getting to the stage of "sure we'll be hammered in South Africa anyway". :D

Lets say we had the exact same group as WC2002, Germany would be a similar situation to our games against Italy, keep it tight, won't be the better team but could sneak a point. Against a team like Cameroon I think we could easily get a draw, maybe sneak a win (like Bulgaria) and then I'd be confident we could beat a fourth seed like Saudi Arabia.

Then again we'd never be able to beat Spain in the final so what's the point?

[geysir]

Folan hasn't let us down yet either, great attitude. He may have to leave Hull at this stage though as I can't see him getting too many games with Vennegor there now.
If Vennegor was on his game then Folan would be a regular spectator, however on last season's evidence JVOH's game was far from that.

If it's a choice between Folan and (injury prone) JVOH to play, I'd say Folan will still get plenty of game time and possibly learn a few tricks from his rival.