Electronic Voting

[Peadar]

I'm sick of the opposition parties going against everything just for the sake of it. Electronic Voting is clearly the way forward but Labour and other muppets are up in arms over it.
It has always bothered me that people counted the ballot papers by hand. There was large scope for error and fraud here. Computers are far more reliable than people and from what I've read about the system being rolled out in Ireland, security will be as strict as possible. The counting PC's will be stand-alone and security hardened. A stand alone PC isn't connected to a network and therefore can't be hacked remotely.
I think this is a positive step forward for the democratic process in this country. Now all we need is someone decent to vote for.

[tiktok]

There won't be any counts anymore, the results will appear automatically, it's going to take a lot of the excitement out of the process, and there will be no possibility of recounts.

it's all going to be so boring.

and people will (without reason most likely) not trust the results especially when they're close.

[max power]

if the people who upgrade the e mail for certain gov depts are involved with the electronic voting it will be some fun !!!!

as peader stand alone pc is hard to hack but it can crash very easily....

good idea, but try and tell that to an 80 year old living in the back end if leitrim !!!

[the 12 th man]

novelty value might bring out voters that normally dont give a monkeys.on the minus side can see delays on the polling days with the likes of the elderly having trouble trying to operate it.

[Peadar]

Originally posted by the 12 th man
see delays on the polling days with the likes of the elderly having trouble trying to operate it.

Nice try 12th man but they said the elderly folk in Ireland would struggle with the introduction of €uro and that certainly wasn't the case.
It's all very straight forward and certainly no more complicated than the traditional method.
Look here (http://www.electronicvoting.ie/english/demo.html#) for a demo.

Electronic voting was first used at the general election in May 2002 in the constituencies of Meath, Dublin North and Dublin West. Electronic voting was rolled out to seven constituencies at the Nice referendum in October 2002 - Meath, Dublin North and Dublin West, Dublin Mid West, Dublin South West, Dublin South and Dun Laoghaire.

An exit poll of voters who used the electronic system at the 2002 general election showed that 96% of voters surveyed found the voting machine easy to use.

Give the people of Ireland a bit more credit, everyone can use this system.


Originally posted by max power
as peader stand alone pc is hard to hack but it can crash very easily...

That is not true in my experience.
If anything, PC's hang and sometimes crash when they drop network connections while a network dependant resource is running. A PC with a good build and the required spec should not crash during normal use. Most people who have problems with their home PC's are using incorrect drivers or have deleted .dll files when removing a program.

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by Peadar
Nice try 12th man but they said the elderly folk in Ireland would struggle with the introduction of €uro and that certainly wasn't the case.
.

on the contrary im not knocking the system at all,i think it is a good idea,i just had visions of a lot of our senior citizens (you know the old bingo crowd) giving out jo bollo* about having to press buttons instead of putting their x marks the spot.:)

[SÓC]

Originally posted by tiktok
There won't be any counts anymore, the results will appear automatically, it's going to take a lot of the excitement out of the process, and there will be no possibility of recounts.

it's all going to be so boring.



AFAIK they are looking into giving a first count, then 5 minutes later a second count, 5 mins a 3rd count etc.

If they didnt election night would be boring. We would get sights like Jackie Healy-Rae at the last election when it look for a while like he was going to lose his seat so he had a drink or two to comfort himself...but had to sober up when they realised he'd gotten a large chunk of someone's transfers. Oh the fun:)

[Macy]

My biggest problem is that there is no secret way of spoiling your paper. Add a "None of the Above" option then I'll generally be happy.

However, IMO questions remain about how the secruity is to be managed at all, and related to this the storage of the machines between elections. (Which is what the opposition party's are complaining about, rather the system per se.)

Also, I'm not comfortable with the FF Director of Elections being in charge of the introduction of the system. Not suggesting anything untoward, but surely he should be taking one or other role, rather leaving himself open to a potential conflict of interests and/or a chance to manipulate the results.

[brendy_éire]

Originally posted by Macy
My biggest problem is that there is no secret way of spoiling your paper. Add a "None of the Above" option then I'll generally be happy.

I'm so sick of hearing that. You have no constitutional right to spoil your vote! If you think that everyone up for election is so ****e, put yourself up and see how ye do.

[dahamsta]

Peadar,

There are dozens of arguments against Nedap/Powervote's system, but I'll break it down to just one, simple example. I need to make a few factual statements before I do -- you don't need to take my word for it that they're factual, they're easily checked by contacting the Department of the Environment and NASA.

The software that will be used in the local and European elections will not be the same as the software used previously.
The software will be delivered shortly before the elections, I believe a month before, which does not give enough time for testing.
Mission-critical software developers like NASA expect about 60 faults in a project the size of Nedap/Powervote's system.So anyway, Sally walks up to the machine, gives Perry her first preference, and hits the Cast Vote button. Unfortunately though, due to a tiny error in the vote logging software, Perry's first preference is switched with Tony - who Sally hates - and Tony gets not only his own votes, but Perry's too. Tony gets in in the first round. Sally is not amused, so she calls for a recount.

This is where it get interesting. Every time the recount button is pressed, the same result comes up -- Perry gets nul poin, Tony gets the seat. Sally can't understand this because she knows that she herself voted for Perry, so she pushes past and hits the button herself. Still nothing, nada, null, zip, zero. Not a sausage.

Want to know why? I already told you: Because the vote was logged for Tony. As far as the machine is concerned, Tony got the votes and Perry got none. You can hit recount as many times as you want, it'll still come up with the same answer because it's counting the same errors. You can't argue with it or reason with it, it's a machine.

In this imaginary example, the problem was caused by a simple error. There was no foul-play at work, it was just a slip-up where a coder (for example) accidentally used OR instead of AND in his code. Now imagine that the coder was paid to do it. By the people that paid for the system. With your money.

Now here's another fact for you to ponder: Martin Cullen, the Minister responsible for rolling out this system, is Fianna Fáil's Director of Elections.

adam

[SÓC]

Just though of something non-technicial but I assume its too obvious a plot and there is some way around it but here goes;

What if I get my hands on the biggest most powerful magnet that I can carry around. Put it in a bag and lean the bag up against the voting computer when I go to vote. Would that not destroy/damage any data stored on the hard drive?

[Macy]

Originally posted by brendy_eire
I'm so sick of hearing that. You have no constitutional right to spoil your vote! If you think that everyone up for election is so ****e, put yourself up and see how ye do.
It's a constitutional right to a secret ballot. What you did with your ballott paper was then up to you, including spoiling your paper. The only way to do this under the electronic voting is to get someone to adjust the machine so that no vote is registered - so it's not a secret ballot anymore.

I probably won't spoil my paper (have in the past when I was in England, in several elections), but people have the right to secret ballot and to spoil their paper if they so wish.

[brendy_éire]

Originally posted by Macy
people have the right...to spoil their paper if they so wish.

No you don't. Yes, you do have a right to a secret ballot, but not to spoil your vote.

[Peadar]

Originally posted by dahamsta
Now here's another fact for you to ponder: Martin Cullen, the Minister responsible for rolling out this system, is Fianna Fáil's Director of Elections.


I get the impression from some of you that you genuinely believe the system in place at the moment isn't open to manipulation or corruption. With regard to testing the software, my company has a division dedicated to testing software so I'm fairly familiar with how code is tested.
Software is generally tested extensively before RTM. One month would be sufficient time for end user testing. The code behind the actual voting process should be relatively straight forward. The only changes being made to it before the election date should be the candidates names. Hence the short release time before the polls open. This system has been used with success before, that is a fact for you Adam.

[pete]

Given the States record in introducing almost anything new I don't have confidence in their abilities not to feck this one up.

From what i've heard biggest problems with system to be introduced are:
- no paper trail i.e. no record of what was entered into the system. If pooter fecks up how will we ever know? Means cannot really have a recount anymore so is it constitutional?
- uses MS Access :rolleyes: for its Database which seems fairly dubious choice but maybe not when hear based on 15 year old s/w.

I think the electronic voting is a waste for the euro elections where counting should be relatively quick as only a few candidates & constituencies.

Manual vote counting is checked my the party tally men so means widespread fraud almost impossible.

[SÓC]

Originally posted by Macy

I probably won't spoil my paper (have in the past when I was in England, in several elections), but people have the right to secret ballot and to spoil their paper if they so wish.

Where in Irish Law do you have the right to spoil your vote? You cant just say it runs from having a secret ballot that you can spoil your vote.

Spoilt votes cost time and money. I think the Government could easy defend any case taken on grounds of public policy.
There are not absolute rights in Irish law. Every right you have comes with exceptions.

[Macy]

Surely on this super duper new system it wouldn't cost time or money to have a "None of the Above" option. The only reason they won't is because they are scared of the results....

It's either a secret ballot or it's not. Under this system it's not. It's no business of anyone else what choice a voter makes.

[Peadar]

Originally posted by SÓCcfc
What if I get my hands on the biggest most powerful magnet that I can carry around. Put it in a bag and lean the bag up against the voting computer when I go to vote. Would that not destroy/damage any data stored on the hard drive?


Not likely since you'd have to actually get the hard drive within the magnetic field of the magnet. You're talking about a pretty powerful magnet.
If you were successful the fault would show up immediately and you'd be easily traced as the culprit.


Originally posted by Macy
Surely on this super duper new system it wouldn't cost time or money to have a "None of the Above" option.

It should be as easy to implement as adding a candidate in the first place. In theory I don't see any problem with such a button.

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by Peadar


It should be as easy to implement as adding a candidate in the first place. In theory I don't see any problem with such a button.


cant see the government doing anything at all to to encourage/help the spoiling of papers,so there is no way thats going to happen.

[dahamsta]

Spoiling is a side issue. The key issue is VVAT (Voter Verifiable Audit Trail).

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by dahamsta
Spoiling is a side issue. The key issue is VVAT (Voter Verifiable Audit Trail).

we trust computers these days to do everything from running an incubator to flying a plane to keeping our bank balance correct ,so i dont really see the problem with letting it count our votes.luddites of the world look out:D

[dahamsta]

Did you read my first post?

[WeAreRovers]

Spoiling your vote IS a right. As is not voting, even voting for the PDs is a right. Macy's point - which I agree with - is that not having a "none of the above" option actually puts people off showing up and voting - even if it's to vote for nobody. ie. it's anti-democratic.

The arrogance of the political classes in this country to say that spoiling your vote is wrong amazes me. Spoiling your vote is an effective way of saying a plague on all your houses. Surely a valid response in this day and age.

After another weekend of sleaze and yet more sleaze how can saying **** off to the political parties be a waste of a vote. Voting for the current government, or a dying FG or a limp wristed pathetic Labour or Green Party - now that's wasting your vote.

KOH

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by dahamsta
Did you read my first post?

i did,and while there is probably merit in what you say,i think that what we are talking about here ,is ultimately progress for the voting process.surely we cant expect the time consuming antiquated system that we have now, to continue for ever more.

while there is the possibility/probability of initial glitches in the system,i dont think you can stop ,what will be ultimatly be a more efficient way of doing the job.

[Sheridan]

Originally posted by WeAreRovers
The arrogance of the political classes in this country to say that spoiling your vote is wrong amazes me. Spoiling your vote is an effective way of saying a plague on all your houses. Surely a valid response in this day and age.

The only response.

A general question, in relation to this thread. When the attitudes held by over 70% of a country's population make you want to smash things, is it time to emigrate?

[SÓC]

Originally posted by WeAreRovers
Spoiling your vote IS a right. As is not voting, even voting for the PDs is a right. Macy's point - which I agree with - is that not having a "none of the above" option actually puts people off showing up and voting - even if it's to vote for nobody. ie. it's anti-democratic.

The arrogance of the political classes in this country to say that spoiling your vote is wrong amazes me. Spoiling your vote is an effective way of saying a plague on all your houses. Surely a valid response in this day and age.

After another weekend of sleaze and yet more sleaze how can saying **** off to the political parties be a waste of a vote. Voting for the current government, or a dying FG or a limp wristed pathetic Labour or Green Party - now that's wasting your vote.

KOH

Im not saying that people shouldnt spoil their votes but you cant just say you have a right to it. AFAIK there is no law saying you have a right to.
Like I said the Government could defend not having a spoil vote button in a court IMO. The points you make about the parties (excluding FF;) ) are grand but they wouldnt hold up in court.

As well if there was a spoil vote button it would increase the amount of spoilt votes. It would be much easier(and not as fun) to press a button rather than writting 'Dustin 4Taoiseach' on the ballot. How can it be good for democracy if large numbers of people dont vote, thus letting the minority of people in the country speak on their behalf.

[NorthoftheLee]

electonic voting while it is the way forward, needs to be introduced correctly.

The Director of FF Elections being the head of this role out is laughable. If you saw this in a banana rebublic you'd be well suss. "we are one,some might say :)"

I agree with dahmasta with the integrity of the software needing to be fully tested. Most Companies while internaly testing their software before field release, do not capture all faults. Some faults may only be found after extensive field testing and other only during field use where the system is under stress conditions.


The most important thing for me is to have a voting paper trail. I for one would like to see that my votes have been processed in the correct order. It is important for voter visibility plus there is also the case that if a problem did occur with the system then there would be a paper back up for any verification needed.

[Macy]

Originally posted by SÓCcfc
As well if there was a spoil vote button it would increase the amount of spoilt votes. It would be much easier(and not as fun) to press a button rather than writting 'Dustin 4Taoiseach' on the ballot. How can it be good for democracy if large numbers of people dont vote, thus letting the minority of people in the country speak on their behalf.
I would suggest that there would be an increase in the numbers voting. As it is the vast majority of people who don't want to vote, simply don't bother. The political parties and commentators waffle on about voter apathy, without addressing the real issue. It's not apathy with politics, it's apathy for the political parties.

A "None of the Above" option would give people the chance to properly register that they don't want to vote for any of the options - no political party is going to push (no pun intended) for that as it will show them all up.

To sum up and get back to the question rather than the rant, an option for spoiling your vote is no different from now, where you can spoil your vote and/or not bother turning up.

EDIT - Just to emphasise the point, turnout at the last general election was 63%. What of the other 37% Soc?

[SÓC]

The other 37% stayed at home, something which they DO have a right to do (until such time as compulsory voting is introduced, Belgium have it afaik).

But the government every election tries to get people out to vote, is that effecting the rights of those who vote? The government are showing a bias to those who vote because it is precieved to be in the best interest that people vote.

I think the amount who vote will increase because of the system. If there was a spoil vote button people who normally vote would end up spoiling their vote. What does that achieve except letting a minority of people speak for you.

As things stand at the moment arond 27% of the people of Ireland voted to have the present Government. That proportion would go down further IMO if there was a spoil vote button.

[Macy]

Originally posted by SÓCcfc
I think the amount who vote will increase because of the system. If there was a spoil vote button people who normally vote would end up spoiling their vote. What does that achieve except letting a minority of people speak for you.

As things stand at the moment arond 27% of the people of Ireland voted to have the present Government. That proportion would go down further IMO if there was a spoil vote button.
This arguement is bizarre - the numbers of spoilt papers would only go up if people chose to register their dissatification that way, which is democracy!!!!

However, one of the main selling points of the system is that they will be less spoilt votes by people who simply make a mistake, rather than a statement.

There would simply be a tally of the "none of the above" votes, just as their is now. How can something that gives people a more of a choice be anti-democratic? It's certainly far preferable for people to register their feelings, than to say and do nothing...

[SÓC]

Originally posted by Macy

There would simply be a tally of the "none of the above" votes, just as their is now. How can something that gives people a more of a choice be anti-democratic? It's certainly far preferable for people to register their feelings, than to say and do nothing...

Yea but isnt it better again if they go to the voting centre to vote for some who they feel best reflects their views thus enabling them to have repersentation rather that sit smugly in the pub and say; "I voted for Dustin, that'll teach Bertie"

[dahamsta]

Let's stick to facts and the law here: Spoiling your vote is not a right. It's not in the constitution, it's not in the law. What people campaigning for a spoiling option want is the right to privacy when spoiling their vote, which is impossible with the current system (you have to call an attendant over).

Again, this is a side issue. The integrity of our democracy is a hell of a more important than an individual right to spoil.

adam

[WeAreRovers]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Conor74
[B]Hmm, would question how effective it is. I mean it goes to a vote counter who probably hands it to the County Registrar, who asks the tally men to confirm that it's spoiled.

Still more effective than staying at home.

KOH

[Macy]

Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Yea but isnt it better again if they go to the voting centre to vote for some who they feel best reflects their views thus enabling them to have repersentation rather that sit smugly in the pub and say; "I voted for Dustin, that'll teach Bertie"
But you're talking about joke candidates, not spoiling/ voting none of the above....

Whether you want to believe it or not, there are people totally disenfranchised by all political parties, and they should have the choice. It could be that they strongly support the socialist party (for example), but they are not standing in their constituency.

People voting for parties "just because" does more damage than anything else to democracy IMO....

[dahamsta]

Originally posted by the 12 th man
i did,and while there is probably merit in what you sayNot merit, truth. I posted four facts and one supposition. I have a lot more suppositions if anyone would care to hear them.

i think that what we are talking about here ,is ultimately progress for the voting process.surely we cant expect the time consuming antiquated system that we have now, to continue for ever more.

Certainly, the existing system is time consuming, but it also has integrity -- if something goes wrong, we have a paper record that can be recounted, and recounted again and again until everyone can agree that the result is ok. You don't have that with this new system, and what's more, you're paying about 90 million for the pleasure.

Yes, I said 90 million. Cullen said 45 million, right? He's a liar: The system itself costs 45 million, but storage of the machines will cost another 45 million or so over the projected lifetime of the machines. That's not the only thing he's lied about either, he's lied to the public and the Dáil chamber repeatedly. I'll say it again lest there be any doubt: Cullen is a liar.

while there is the possibility/probability of initial glitches in the system,i dont think you can stop ,what will be ultimatly be a more efficient way of doing the job.

With respect, f*ck efficiency. I'd prefer to spend several months counting votes I can trust than to risk my vote on a machine with no effective backup mechanism. Voter Verifiable Audit Trail. Look it up.

adam

[SÓC]

Originally posted by Macy
But you're talking about joke candidates, not spoiling/ voting none of the above....

Whether you want to believe it or not, there are people totally disenfranchised by all political parties, and they should have the choice. It could be that they strongly support the socialist party (for example), but they are not standing in their constituency.

People voting for parties "just because" does more damage than anything else to democracy IMO....

But ya see Macy thats the whole point.

If there is no socalist party rep going in your area why not go yourself and set up a local socalist party cumann, run candiates etc. Or at least vote for people who you feel represent you more than the the rest do, then lobby the particular TD/MEP etc. SF, Greens and some Lab are socialist too, just of varying degrees.

If you feel so strong about something you might as well do something to change the situation rather than waste your vote.

[Macy]

Originally posted by SÓCcfc
But ya see Macy thats the whole point.

If there is no socalist party rep going in your area why not go yourself and set up a local socalist party cumann, run candiates etc. Or at least vote for people who you feel represent you more than the the rest do, then lobby the particular TD/MEP etc. SF, Greens and some Lab are socialist too, just of varying degrees.

If you feel so strong about something you might as well do something to change the situation rather than waste your vote.
I've already stated that I will be voting - I used that as an example (maybe I shouldn't have, or at least used a particular party).

I would contend that by spoiling your vote, it has the potential to make all the parties sit up and address the disenfranchised electorate - if, using the last election figures, 37% had spoiled their vote (as there is no "none of the above" option), then the political parties and the media would have to sit up and take notice, ultimately leading to change/pressure to change...

[brendy_éire]

Originally posted by Macy
I would contend that by spoiling your vote, it has the potential to make all the parties sit up and address the disenfranchised electorate - if, using the last election figures, 37% had spoiled their vote (as there is no "none of the above" option), then the political parties and the media would have to sit up and take notice, ultimately leading to change/pressure to change...

Do you really think that 37% of people who didn't vote in last election did so because they felt that no party represented them well enough? No, it's also because they couldn't have been arsed, felt it wouldn't have made a difference to the result, or felt that it's pointless voting because nothing will ever change.

If someone isn't happy with the candiadates standing in their constituency, they, IMO, have a social obligation to stand for election themselves. That's the point of a democratic society. People spoiling their votes could hardly be described as democratic. IMO, voting should be compulsory. There would be electronic voting, with no 'None of the above' option. As for Martin Cullen being in charge of bringing in the new system, I trust him to do it properly. (and I'm most certainly not a FF man) I don't believe he would be that corrupt as to do anything underhand with the system. As for computer error, there's a greater chance of human error in the counting, so that's a none-issue. As, I think, this whole topic should be. People complain about there not being a paper trial so they can be sure of their vote. Answer me this, the last time you voted, how do you know your vote was properly counted and added to the final total? You don't. You just have to trust that whoever counted it did so correctly and fairly. You trust that this is what happened. Why can't you trust the new system in the same way?

[Macy]

Originally posted by brendy_eire
Do you really think that 37% of people who didn't vote in last election did so because they felt that no party represented them well enough? No, it's also because they couldn't have been arsed, felt it wouldn't have made a difference to the result, or felt that it's pointless voting because nothing will ever change.
1) Yeah quite alot, ever think why?
2) Same as above
3) Definitely, and no way of registering that feeling


Originally posted by brendy_eire
If someone isn't happy with the candiadates standing in their constituency, they, IMO, have a social obligation to stand for election themselves. That's the point of a democratic society. People spoiling their votes could hardly be described as democratic.
And what if I wanted to stand and couldn't get the support? For example in the local elections you need 15 people from the area to nominate you. Spoiling you ballot is one way of registering your dissatisfaction, so it is entirely democratic...


Originally posted by brendy_eire
IMO, voting should be compulsory. There would be electronic voting, with no 'None of the above' option.
What about the democratic right not to vote? And if you are to have compulsory voting, IMO a "None of the above" would be essential.


Originally posted by brendy_eire
As for Martin Cullen being in charge of bringing in the new system, I trust him to do it properly. (and I'm most certainly not a FF man) I don't believe he would be that corrupt as to do anything underhand with the system.
Having the Director of Elections implementing a new voting system, and you don't see a potential conflict? This is also the man that wants to abolish donation limits, and increase the limits for declared donations. I don't necessarily think he would be that corrupt, but there shouldn't be any question marks around the implementation.


Originally posted by brendy_eire
As for computer error, there's a greater chance of human error in the counting, so that's a none-issue. As, I think, this whole topic should be. People complain about there not being a paper trial so they can be sure of their vote. Answer me this, the last time you voted, how do you know your vote was properly counted and added to the final total? You don't. You just have to trust that whoever counted it did so correctly and fairly. You trust that this is what happened. Why can't you trust the new system in the same way?
The old system is trustworthy because each vote can be gone over, and re-counts called if necessary. Basically repeating whats been said before, but every stage is checked and verified. As for computer error - take it you don't use computer systems, and Access in particular, that often?

btw As a matter of interest, do you have a vote here or in the North? If it's the North you're happy to argue the case for us to have this system, whilst you happily use the tried and trusted pen and paper...

[SÓC]

Originally posted by Macy
Having the Director of Elections implementing a new voting system, and you don't see a potential conflict? This is also the man that wants to abolish donation limits, and increase the limits for declared donations. I don't necessarily think he would be that corrupt, but there shouldn't be any question marks around the implementation.


Its a private position he holds as director of elections for FF. Nothing to do with his portfolio as a Minister, about as relevant as him being the captain of the local golf club.

[Macy]

Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Its a private position he holds as director of elections for FF. Nothing to do with his portfolio as a Minister, about as relevant as him being the captain of the local golf club.
That's okay then :rolleyes:

[parnell ranger]

"Now here's another fact for you to ponder: Martin Cullen, the Minister responsible for rolling out this system, is Fianna Fáil's Director of Elections".


Waheeyyyyy! An overall majority!

[dahamsta]

With respect Soc, that's a ridiculous statement. Although local golf clubs are notoriously political, the future of the country doesn't rest upon what "our jack said about their maureen". We're talking about the foundation of our democracy. His job as director of elections is to deliver as many votes to Fianna Fáil as possible, and here's a mechanism that could be used to that end. The conflict of interest is enormous.

adam

[brendy_éire]

Originally posted by Macy
And what if I wanted to stand and couldn't get the support? For example in the local elections you need 15 people from the area to nominate you.

Anyone can get 15 signatures. Go out on the street and ask people if you're that badly stuck. The 15 signatures requirement is there to stop people sticking their name down for the craic of it.


Originally posted by Macy
What about the democratic right not to vote? And if you are to have compulsory voting, IMO a "None of the above" would be essential.

I don't believe anyone should have a right not to vote. It's not fair that some e just leave it up to someone else to run the country. What if we all took that attitude? It's everyone's country, therefore we all have a responibility to help run it.


Originally posted by Macy
Having the Director of Elections implementing a new voting system, and you don't see a potential conflict?

I do, aye. Should really be someone else, an independent body ideally.


Originally posted by Macy
The old system is trustworthy because each vote can be gone over, and re-counts called if necessary. Basically repeating whats been said before, but every stage is checked and verified.

You still put your trust down to those who count it however. You have no way of knowing whether your vote has been properly counted.


Originally posted by Macy
As for computer error - take it you don't use computer systems, and Access in particular, that often?

There is possibility for computer error, but, as is said for MS Access, GIGO.


Originally posted by Macy
btw As a matter of interest, do you have a vote here or in the North? If it's the North you're happy to argue the case for us to have this system, whilst you happily use the tried and trusted pen and paper...

The North. But I'd be more than happy to see it introduced here (which undoubtly it will be at some stage).

[Sheridan]

Originally posted by dahamsta
With respect Soc, that's a ridiculous statement. Although local golf clubs are notoriously political, the future of the country doesn't rest upon what "our jack said about their maureen". We're talking about the foundation of our democracy here for god's sake. His job as director of elections is to deliver as many votes to Fianna Fáil as possible, and here's a mechanism that could be used to that end. The conflict of interest is enormous.

I think it's a bit optimistic to expect people to be up in arms over a possible conflict of interest, in a country where endless revelations of actual corruption have failed to perturb the general public.

[the scout]

re the poll:

any chance of a recount??????????:D

[dahamsta]

No problem, I'll just check the database.


[abeecher@johnhoop abeecher]$ mysql -u root -p
Enter password:
Welcome to the MySQL monitor. Commands end with ; or \g.
Your MySQL connection id is 301527 to server version: 3.23.58

Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer.

mysql> use footie;
Reading table information for completion of table and column names
You can turn off this feature to get a quicker startup with -A

Database changed
mysql> SELECT votes FROM poll WHERE pollid=264;
+---------+
| votes |
+---------+
| 0|||999 |
+---------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)There ya go. Sure and begorrah, the computer can't be wrong!

adam

[Macy]

Originally posted by brendy_eire
Anyone can get 15 signatures. Go out on the street and ask people if you're that badly stuck. The 15 signatures requirement is there to stop people sticking their name down for the craic of it.
What a great day for democracy that would be.....


Originally posted by brendy_eire
I don't believe anyone should have a right not to vote. It's not fair that some e just leave it up to someone else to run the country. What if we all took that attitude? It's everyone's country, therefore we all have a responibility to help run it.
Of course you have the right not to vote. Voting is just expressing your opinion on who you want to run the country. If we all took the attitude of not voting, it would force the political parties to look at why people don't vote, rather than now where it's mainly in disadvantaged areas where the politicians couldn't give a fúck about....


Originally posted by brendy_eire
You still put your trust down to those who count it however. You have no way of knowing whether your vote has been properly counted.
Yes, with tallymen/women from all those standing looking over their shoulders, and the chance to go over every single vote over and over again if necessary.


Originally posted by brendy_eire
There is possibility for computer error, but, as is said for MS Access, GIGO
And no way of checking manually, or plan if one does go wrong


Originally posted by brendy_eire
But I'd be more than happy to see it introduced here (which undoubtly it will be at some stage).
I doubt very much that it will be introduced in such a rushed manner, without necessary testing, and with no way of following a vote through the system...

[Macy]

Originally posted by dahamsta
No problem, I'll just check the database.
There ya go. Sure and begorrah, the computer can't be wrong!

adam
:D

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by dahamsta
No problem, I'll just check the database.


adam


what about putting in a real poll.

1 would you prefer electronic voting
2 would you prefer manual voting
3 dont care either way (maybe other options could be added).