Part-time football

[Umberside]

With so much talk about this lately, I suppose it's worth having a thread where it can all be kept together.

The belief is that we're going part-time at the end of this season (we said that last year too), which I don't think will improve the league.

I believe full-time football has a place in the League of Ireland, along with sense and financial prudence.

[superfrank]

I'd say everybody agrees that full-time football is the way to go but what's more important, imo, is keeping the clubs that are already here still going.

At the mo, there just isn't enough revenue out there for clubs to sustain full-time football.

[Rovers1]

I'd say everybody agrees that full-time football is the way to go but what's more important, imo, is keeping the clubs that are already here still going.

At the mo, there just isn't enough revenue out there for clubs to sustain full-time football.

I'd go with SF. 10 full time clubs just isnt sustainable. A mix of full time/part time (all PD clubs)is the best way forward IMO.

[Dillonman]

I think the best way forward at the moment is for all clubs to operate on a part time basis but to facilitate a squad with a mixture of full timers and part timers, this is the only way forward, the GAA has killed alot of attendances this Summer(pure joke) at all clubs!

[Umberside]

The League of Ireland's results in Europe depend on full-time football.

Take Sligo for example, they're part-time and lost to a team form Albania.

St Pats are full-time, and they beat a team from Russia.

[marinobohs]

With so much talk about this lately, I suppose it's worth having a thread where it can all be kept together.

The belief is that we're going part-time at the end of this season (we said that last year too), which I don't think will improve the league.

I believe full-time football has a place in the League of Ireland, along with sense and financial prudence.

I think this has been "done" before but yes ideally full time football is the best option - improving skill and fitness levels and attracting a better standard of player to the League. The problem is it appears to be financially impossible within the current League structure.

It has always been my view that an all Ireland League would be the only way full time could work but given the realitively poor crowds at SETANTA cup games this may not be enough.
Unfortunately it seems unlikely that this will change anytime soon as in the last season or two lower league teams have had less to spend and more players have "come home" so we have benifited from the collapse of the TV deal they had.
Some clubs have tried some forms of hybrid part time set ups (Pats I know had one based on a scandinavian model) but nobody has found a system yet that they were completely happy with (without going broke !).
individual wage caps or limits have proved impossible to make stick as some club (in a leap for glory) will always break ranks. Central contracting for players (similar to Rugger and the MLS in America) has often been mentioned but can't see the FAI having the where with all to make it work (think **** up - brewery - couldn't organise).

Horrible lack of clarity around what players earn individually so it is impossible to figure if they could / would work full time for less money.

[sligoman]

Stupid thread, obviously full-time is the best option but it's not sustainable for most clubs at the current time.
Take Sligo for example, they're part-time and lost to a team form Albania.We're full-time...although not by looking at the table.

[Umberside]

We're full-time...although not by looking at the table.

I can't remember a team having so many injuries. Sligo would possibly be competing for Europe if they had their full squad to choose from.

[dcfcsteve]

I think we should go back to football games of old.

'Uppies' versus 'downies' ; games of how-ever-many-a-side ; the ability to move the ball in any way you want ; no fixed time limit etc.

And preferably played on concrete by drunken youths.

[peadar1987]

I would be in favour of the FAI restructuring the salary cap so say only 50% of income could be spent on wages, but a proportion of income, say 10%, would have to be spend on advertising and club promotion, at least for a few seasons.

It sounds drastic, but these times call for drastic measures. It's already been proven time and again that if the clubs are left to their own devices, at least one will ruin things by driving up player wages, hiring all the best players, then promptly going bust. I know this isn't the FAI's fault, but as the organising authority of the league, they now have the power to stop this from happening again, and encourage prudent spending and sustained growth of the league

[Umberside]

I think we should go back to football games of old.

'Uppies' versus 'downies' ; games of how-ever-many-a-side ; the ability to move the ball in any way you want ; no fixed time limit etc.

And preferably played on concrete by drunken youths.

Those were the days :(

[superfrank]

The League of Ireland's results in Europe depend on full-time football.
Maybe, but just look at how many clubs have run themselves into trouble by chasing Europe. The phrase "you've got to spend money to make money" comes to mind.

Thing is though, LoI teams don't have enough money to make it.

[Umberside]

Maybe, but just look at how many clubs have run themselves into trouble by chasing Europe. The phrase "you've got to spend money to make money" comes to mind.

Thing is though, LoI teams don't have enough money to make it.

I think St Pats are a glowing example of how to do things right. They've collected a competitive bunch of players for realistic wages and could be going to the Europa League group stages if it wasn't for a poor second half defensive display.

Interstingly too, St Pats had no pressure to qualify for the next round because they are in good financial health, whereas Derry and Bohs depended on it.

And I don't believe it's because of a poor squad that they've underachieved in the league this season, along with Sligo they've had unbelievable injury problems.

The current structure at St Pats should be held up as a symbol of good thinking & pure intelligence in the league.

[marinobohs]

I would be in favour of the FAI restructuring the salary cap so say only 50% of income could be spent on wages, but a proportion of income, say 10%, would have to be spend on advertising and club promotion, at least for a few seasons.

It sounds drastic, but these times call for drastic measures. It's already been proven time and again that if the clubs are left to their own devices, at least one will ruin things by driving up player wages, hiring all the best players, then promptly going bust. I know this isn't the FAI's fault, but as the organising authority of the league, they now have the power to stop this from happening again, and encourage prudent spending and sustained growth of the league

That should help keep the game here full time allright ! Also, some clubs have for years found ways around the wage structure by cash in hand ,expenses etc. This was traditionally done to avoid tax /PRSI but the same scams could be used to avoid the 65% rule. I remember hearing from one player that he had not got a payslip in three years
Incidentally, Bohs as a members club was never able to avail of these methods (detailed accounts published etc) which some cynics have linked with our pay costs for bar staff................;)

[Umberside]

I remember hearing from one player that he had not got a payslip in three years

Shocking :mad: Hope it was a long time ago.

[marinobohs]

Shocking :mad: Hope it was a long time ago.

About two years ago. One former club official that was well known for such practices actually reported two other clubs to Revenue for the same thing :rolleyes:

[marinobohs]

The current structure at St Pats should be held up as a symbol of good thinking & pure intelligence in the league.

Yep, just point me in the direction of a multi millionaire ready to pump a few million into Bohs and I will be happy to follow the St Pats model :rolleyes:

[superfrank]

The current structure at St Pats should be held up as a symbol of good thinking & pure intelligence in the league.
Good thinking and intelligence doesn't win you the LoI. Also, unless you've seen their books, how can you say that they're paying "realistic" wages and are in "good financial health"?

Not all clubs' financial problems get dragged out into the open. There was no public mention of our own troubles last year until we had to cut players wages and our entire budget.

[Umberside]

Yep, just point me in the direction of a multi millionaire ready to pump a few million into Bohs and I will be happy to follow the St Pats model :rolleyes:

Bottom line of my post was that they knew when to cut back, whereas we kept overspending.

[Umberside]

Good thinking and intelligence doesn't win you the LoI.

True, but it doesn't stop a club from going far in Europe

[Duggie]

part time football is a hobby - terrible

[jinxy lilywhite]

Lads I don't think Full time football is the problem here. A Full time team could be run of a budget of roughly 10k. The problem lies with clubs offering ludricrous amounts of money to their players. I think full time football can be sustainable if it is managed properly and a wages spiral doesn't happen again. The likes of some players on 1 or 2k a week should never be a loi wage. If some players want that then go to england by all means.

[peadar1987]

That should help keep the game here full time allright !

My opinion is we don't currently have enough money in the Irish game to sustain a full-time league. The only way the league is going to grow is by consistent promotion and advertising, and the only way this is going to be achieved is if clubs stop spending ridiculous amounts on wages, at least until revenue starts to climb

[Sheridan]

My opinion is we don't currently have enough money in the Irish game to sustain a full-time league. The only way the league is going to grow is by consistent promotion and advertising, and the only way this is going to be achieved is if clubs stop spending ridiculous amounts on wages, at least until revenue starts to climb
I'm curious as to why you see a causal link there. There's only so much you can do to promote an inferior product, which is what you get if clubs jettison full-time football.

[GlasnevinRed]

For me seeing how chasing Europe nearly finished us off completely I think for the forseeable future teams should go part-time. It's all well and good competing in Europe until it doesn't pay off.

Ok with part-time football the standard won't be as high and it'll be hard to attract fans, but it's not as if Europe has helped domestic attendances. And if everyone was part-time it would make for a much more competitive league. And if and when it becomes more sustainable then make the step up and worry about Europe without breaking the bank.

Survival comes first over european football.

[EalingGreen]

Maybe there are parallels with current thinking from Scotland?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/st_johnstone/8213764.stm
Page last updated at 09:49 GMT, Friday, 21 August 2009 10:49 UK

Brown warning for full-time clubs

St Johnstone chairman Geoff Brown believes full-time football outside the Scottish Premier League is not viable (continues)

[peadar1987]

I'm curious as to why you see a causal link there. There's only so much you can do to promote an inferior product, which is what you get if clubs jettison full-time football.

Well, spending 50% of the income on wages will give a decent mix of semi-pro players with some amateurs. It won't mean the league will become completely amateur.

Limerick proved earlier this season that effective promotion does work in raising attendances. By targeting local schools and football clubs, they almost doubled their average attendance for one game, if I remember correctly. If you can advertise effectively enough to increase attendances by 15%, you're back to your original wage bill within a year.

I think we can all agree that professional football on it's own has failed to increase the gates significantly, so maybe it's time to try something different. Scale back slightly on the wages, and invest in league promotion.

[brianw82]

Well, spending 50% of the income on wages will give a decent mix of semi-pro players with some amateurs. It won't mean the league will become completely amateur.

Limerick proved earlier this season that effective promotion does work in raising attendances. By targeting local schools and football clubs, they almost doubled their average attendance for one game, if I remember correctly. If you can advertise effectively enough to increase attendances by 15%, you're back to your original wage bill within a year.

I think we can all agree that professional football on it's own has failed to increase the gates significantly, so maybe it's time to try something different. Scale back slightly on the wages, and invest in league promotion.

How many of these are freebies, or heavily discounted group schemes? All well and good having bums on seats but if very few of them paid in, what's the point? Are these kids going to start paying in the gate in 10 years' time just because they got in free as a kid?

Sorry to sound so cynical, but having seen these groups at various games, the interest they have in what's going on on the pitch is minimal at best.

[osarusan]

Limerick proved earlier this season that effective promotion does work in raising attendances. By targeting local schools and football clubs, they almost doubled their average attendance for one game, if I remember correctly.

There were over a thousand people at the home game against Waterford. We handed out a load of free kids tickets in the hope that they'd drag along adults with them. Also, I suppose the income from food and drink sold should have increased also.

But apart from getting a decent figure for attendance, I'm not sure how successful it was. We had a load of kids with no interest in the game, and I'm not sure how much better than usual income was that night.

[Longfordian]

Similar thing happened when we were in the Premier playing Drogs and the FAI chose that game to promote under the CPO scheme. Loads of free tickets handed out with kids to be accompanied by an adult and there was 1800 or so there I think, but the money taken on the gate was actually down on Drogs' last visit and there was just loads of unsupervised kids running around. The very next home game it was back down to the 600 or 700 we were regularly getting. Don't think the shop income was all that much different either.

[HarpoJoyce]

Maybe there are parallels with current thinking from Scotland?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/st_johnstone/8213764.stm
Page last updated at 09:49 GMT, Friday, 21 August 2009 10:49 UK

Brown warning for full-time clubs

St Johnstone chairman Geoff Brown believes full-time football outside the Scottish Premier League is not viable (continues)

An interesting article. When it mentioned Brown warning, I thought that was colour-coded for Fear.

[EalingGreen]

An interesting article. When it mentioned Brown warning, I thought that was colour-coded for Fear.

To provide further perspective, St. Johnston had an average League crowd of 3,516 over 18 games (63,294 total) in their promotion winning season of 2008-09. Despite this, they made a pre-tax loss of £225k for the season.

Curiously, they made a profit of £296k the previous season on a lower average (perhaps transfers explain the difference?)

Anyhow, whilst in the Scottish First Division, their crowds compared reasonably favourably with those of LOI clubs, yet still their Chairman reckons full-time football is not feasible at that level.

St. Johnstone FC 2007-08 average attendance:
The average league-game attendance at McDiarmid Park for the season 2007–08 was 2,913, which is 27.29% of the 10,673 capacity and up 3.59% on the 2006–07 season.[14]

Previous averages:

* 2006–07: 2,812 (26.34% of capacity; +5.43% compared to 2005–2006 season)
* 2005–06: 2,667 (24.98% of capacity; +10.48% compared to 2004–05 season)
* 2004–05: 2,414 (22.61% of capacity)