Do Irish Fans over-rate our players?

[an_ceannaire]

Seems to be something (especially in here) that happens a lot. We seem to always over rate our players and we get all precious then when others dont agree!
Take the following examples
We thought Shay Given was in the top 3 keepers in the world, no one else did/does. Cue cries of indignation when ever people put Van Der Sar/Cech etc ahead of him. If he was THAT good why did no top club ever show an interest?
We thought Damien Duff was world class! He spent 2 years doing well at Chelsea and was deemed surplus to requirements and gotten rid of. Now when he should be at his peak he is preparing for life in english footballs second tier
Some here would tell you Richard Dunne is John Terrys equal!! Again, no one outside Ireland would agree and with City looking to get rid, he is being linked with the likes of Sunderland!!!
Andy Reid, some of ye see him as the missing link that will make us a real team again......shame no one told Roy Keane/Ricky Sbragia/Martin Jol/Ramos that. They cant see it!

At one stage some of ye thought Steve Finnan was of to Inter Milan and Gary Breen was going to Barca!!!

And dare anyone suggest otherwise.......

[celticV3]

My only answer to this would be we're not english and out tabloids aren't that bad, yet!

[lionelhutz]

You're a WUM

[endabob1]

All supporters/fans of all clubs and all countries will over-rate their players, it's a fact of life if you are more familiar with something you will value it above something you're less familiar with.

[an_ceannaire]

why am I am wum !! see this is what I am talkign about....dare anyone go against the grain in here, and your a Wum!!! What a joke! Do we all have to believe what you believe!!!

[eirebhoy]

Nope. Given is world class and recognised as such by everyone in the game right now.

Duff was world class and 1m European voters thought so by putting him in the UEFA team of the year at his peak.

18 months ago it seemed Dunne was getting man of the match on English telly every time I saw him. He was actually Sky Sports MOTM in Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge, Anfield and Highbury in 1 season! His partnership with Distin is the reason Man City were never relegated and that's without doubt. And for 2 seasons in a row he had way more bonus points than any defender in the fantasy football which is judged by ex-pro's who I assume would be mainly English.

A.Reid has been class in the premiership when playing centrally. Below average playing anywhere else. It's as simple as that for me. Something must have changed last summer because he went from playing centrally every game for 4 months and doing superbly under Keane to playing every 2nd game and playing on the left wing. I also think playing him 120 minutes in a league cup game when he was subbed in most league games said a lot. He looks to have changed his ways this summer.

Finnan to Inter? I don't remember that link but he played at Liverpool. I don't see what you're saying, unless Inter are a much bigger club because they're from Italy.

And I don't think any of us overrated Breen. You'd be doing well to find an Irish person with a straight face after hearing that Barca rumour.

Our players have set standards. £17m standards and Man Utd standards. I think we can judge our players off those standards.

We judge our players by watching them at least 5 times a year at club level. That's a lot more than the average English person will see of our players. I'd say over 90% of people's opinion is based on media and word of mouth.

[SunderlandBohs]

Gary Breen to Barcelona:D I remember it well!

Spot on An Ceannaire. Just look back a few weeks ago when Doyle signed for Wolves. People on here were saying Arsenal should have signed him! The same with Dunne. People are saying he's to good for Sunderland. No his not! Reid is another. He'll struggle to get in to the Sunderland XI this season. Specially if Cattermole signs. But in saying that they have a point about Given. Just look at Citeh's form since he signed. I'm very surprise a top 4 club didn't sign him.

But what do I know? I've been telling everyone that Lorik Cana is one of the best midfielders in Europe and Bohs should be look for £400,000 for Gary Deegan and €1m for Brian Murphy!

As Arsene Wenger once said 'Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home'.

[celticV3]

You're a WUM
I'll assume your directing that at me. My point was we haven't got any where near the point of over exaggerating the skill and talent of our best players as the English and their tabloids have, best examples are before any cup tournament.

[kennedmc]

What about Mark Kinsella to Barcelona?!
Billy Clarke to Liverpool?!!

There is an element of truth in this thread though we do tend to overrate our players and get precious when people have a go at them. Most smaller countries do to be fair.

[endabob1]

I remember the NI commentator (Jackie Fullerton?) referring to David Healy as "truely world class" at a time when he couldn't get in the Fulham team

[Stuttgart88]

We've got some very good players and some decidedly mediocre ones. Simple as that. I don't know any Irish fan who thinks otherwise.

Is Joleon Lescott an 18m pound player while Dunne is only a 2-5m pound player, or St. Ledger a 4m pound player? Who is overrated in that example?

Football fans are allowed to be a bit less than objective anyway, but I know very few Irish fans who are downright deluded.

With regard to emerging young players I'd say most are hopeful - an educated guess in some instances - rather than 100% confident they'll come good. nothing wrong with that.

I liked the look of O'Dea last week, but thought Willo Flood was awful at protecting the ball in central midfield last Friday. I'd like to be able to turn a blind eye to that but I don't. It's called objectivity.

[Crosby87]

I really like this website as I need it to get any Irish player news at all but I get the feeling some people dont watch other sports to understand how things work in that world, and they dont know much about Soccer.
When ever anyone scores they will have their thread moved up and it will be like wow, so and so with a goal today vs Birmingham. Yeah, nice one. Maybe Trap should look at him? Then you will not see or hear about the guy for 4 months.....

[eirebhoy]

The thing is if we overrate our players then we're overrating the teams they play in and the league they play in. Because when I watch our players we also watch the players he's playing alongside. If he's the best performer in the team he's the best performer in the team.

Richard Dunne hasn't been great for Man City the last 18 months. We all know that. But I think you're very fickle if you judge him on that period because he is clearly as good as ever. As John Giles said, people should be looking at his team for the problem when you see him play like he has been for Ireland. I can understand Man City fans thinking he's not as good as he used to be but not the Ireland fans who've seen him this campaign.

[Stuttgart88]

Just look back a few weeks ago when Doyle signed for Wolves. People on here were saying Arsenal should have signed him! The same with Dunne. I said both of these things.

My simple view is that Doyle is better than Bendtner who plays for Arsenal quite regularly. He's not a patch on Van Persie or Adebayor though. Dunne is better than any CB at Arsenal, bar Gallas maybe, but Gallas blows hot & cold. CB has been a glaring weak spot in Arsenal's team for a long time. Arsenal lack maturity, character, leadership and physicality in certain areas. Both those Irish players have great attitudes. They'd be relatively cheap and good business for a club operating on a budget and whose squad has been stretched very thin by regular injuries to their better players. If Arsenal had pots of money they could do a lot better.

[wexfordned]

Seems to be something (especially in here) that happens a lot. We seem to always over rate our players and we get all precious then when others dont agree!


I agree completely. Shay Given is our only top class player. Just below him you would have Dunne & Keane. After that the rest of them are average footballers of much the same standard.

The whole Andy Reid farce is a perfect example. He is an overweight player who struggled to get a game for a mediocre Sunderland team last season that only just survived in the EPL, yet our media/fans hype him up as this super footballer who should be one of the first names on the teamsheet!!!

Personally I also believe the whole expectation of the fans/media around the Irish team is ridiculous. We are an average side. John O'Shea will be the only player playing in the Champions League & most of our players are now playing for teams in the bottom half of the EPL or The Championship.

Trappatoni gets stick for his tactics, but with the limited ability of the players available for selection this is the best way for the team to get results.

[Predator]

Seems to be something (especially in here) that happens a lot. We seem to always over rate our players and we get all precious then when others dont agree!
...And dare anyone suggest otherwise.......
You make a fair point, but while a lot of fans may go over-board with hype, several current Irish players are top-class.


Take the following examples
We thought Shay Given was in the top 3 keepers in the world, no one else did/does. Cue cries of indignation when ever people put Van Der Sar/Cech etc ahead of him. If he was THAT good why did no top club ever show an interest?Shay Given was recently bought by the richest club in the world, who presumably wish to be challenging for trophies. They clearly have the money to sign the likes of Cech or Van der Sar, so why didn't they?

We thought Damien Duff was world class! He spent 2 years doing well at Chelsea and was deemed surplus to requirements and gotten rid of. Now when he should be at his peak he is preparing for life in english footballs second tierDamien Duff was world class. He's had a tough time with injury and going to Newcastle was probably his biggest mistake, especially when Liverpool and Spurs were looking for him.

Some here would tell you Richard Dunne is John Terrys equal!! Again, no one outside Ireland would agree and with City looking to get rid, he is being linked with the likes of Sunderland!!!Richard Dunne on his day is one of the best centre-backs in the English Premiership, which is arguably the best league in the world.

Andy Reid, some of ye see him as the missing link that will make us a real team again......shame no one told Roy Keane/Ricky Sbragia/Martin Jol/Ramos that. They cant see it! Andy Reid has never been world class.

At one stage some of ye thought Steve Finnan was of to Inter Milan and Gary Breen was going to Barca!!! To be fair, Steve Finnan was part of the Liverpool team that won and finished runners-up in the Champions' League. He clearly has (had?) credentials.

Truth is, we, as a nation have a bit of an inherent inferiority complex. Why can't Irish players be world-class?

Over the years this wee island has produced many a fine athlete and soccer-wise, you only have to look at the likes of Roy Keane and Liam Brady to realise there is a pedigree of sorts.

[irishultra]

My only answer to this would be we're not english and out tabloids aren't that bad, yet!

And my response to this is

''Ireland have better players than Inter Milan''

Its easier for English media to hype up their players when you know they include players at the top tier of European football playing in Champions League every year.

About Finnan, he played for Liverpool who I don't know who is the bigger team them or Inter but Liverpool are definetly the better team and Finnan was one of the best right backs in England before he was dropped for Arbeloa.

[EalingGreen]

ALL fans overrate their own players.

Except me. ;)

Seriously though, I think an_ceannaire has a valid point. Otherwise, if it was obvious exactly how good (or otherwise) a player really is, why would fans of rival teams spend so much time in pubs and Message Boards etc arguing over it?

In the end, the best teams are the ones which win the most games and they do so because they have the best players. So if you want to see how "good" a player really is, see how he and his team is doing.

Perhaps a good case in point is Damien Duff - he must have been excellent when he was starring for Chelsea, but he can't really be that good now, or he wouldn't be stuck at Newcastle.

Note: When talking about "his" team, for some reason which I can't really fathom, sometimes players shine for their club team, but not for their international team (or vice versa). Which is why eg David Healy looked genuinely "world class" when scoring a hattrick against Spain on his way to breaking Davor Suker's European Championships goal record :cool:, but has looked a bit of a pudding both at Fulham and Sunderland.:eek:

[Den Perry]

[QUOTE=wexfordned;1202273]I agree completely. Shay Given is our only top class player. Just below him you would have Dunne & Keane. After that the rest of them are average footballers of much the same standard.

The whole Andy Reid farce is a perfect example. He is an overweight player who struggled to get a game for a mediocre Sunderland team last season that only just survived in the EPL, yet our media/fans hype him up as this super footballer who should be one of the first names on the teamsheet!!!

Personally I also believe the whole expectation of the fans/media around the Irish team is ridiculous. We are an average side. John O'Shea will be the only player playing in the Champions League & most of our players are now playing for teams in the bottom half of the EPL or The Championship.

Trappatoni gets stick for his tactics, but with the limited ability of the players available for selection this is the best way for the team to get results.

To be fair, I don't think most people here overated Andy Reid. They just question why he can't get in the squad ahead of some of those in it.

Given is world class and is not overated. Robbie Keane, while maybe short of World class is not overated.(and what I regard as "world class" for a striker would be Torres. I would rank Keane as good as, if not better than the likes of Tevez,Agbonlahor,Carew

O'Shea is, in my opinion totally underrated and Richard Dunne needs to put a bad season behind him

Those that have been totally overated after one or two good performances: McShane, Glenn Whelan,Stephen Hunt, Gary Breen,

[irishultra]

Yeah I agree for that campaign at least David Healy was world class.

I think Shay Given is our truely world class player now.

[Predator]

ALL fans overrate their own players.

Except me.
And me too! :D


Seriously though, I think an_ceannaire has a valid point. Otherwise, if it was obvious exactly how good (or otherwise) a player really is, why would fans of rival teams spend so much time in pubs and Message Boards etc arguing over it?I admit that an_ceannaire has a point, but the truth is that there are some very good (possibly world-class) Irish players. With regard to your point about 'if it was obvious exactly how good (or otherwise) a player really is', and about people arguing over how good they are, would you say it wasn't obvious that Cristiano Ronaldo was world class, just because people argue over his credentials as a player?


In the end, the best teams are the ones which win the most games and they do so because they have the best players. So if you want to see how "good" a player really is, see how he and his team is doing.To be fair, team performance is different to individual ability, but you have a point.



Note: When talking about "his" team, for some reason which I can't really fathom, sometimes players shine for their club team, but not for their international team (or vice versa). Which is why eg David Healy looked genuinely "world class" when scoring a hattrick against Spain on his way to breaking Davor Suker's European Championships goal record :cool:, but has looked a bit of a pudding both at Fulham and Sunderland.:eek:David Healy never made it at United and has never appeared to play very well (from my observation) with any of his club teams and he seems to be putting on a bit of weight now, but with N.I. he plays well. I wonder is it his mentality of playing in the knowledge that he is effectively a 'big fish in a small pond' with N.I. and with his clubs he hasn't had this status?

[back of the net]

Seems to be something (especially in here) that happens a lot. We seem to always over rate our players and we get all precious then when others dont agree!
Take the following examples
We thought Shay Given was in the top 3 keepers in the world, no one else did/does. Cue cries of indignation when ever people put Van Der Sar/Cech etc ahead of him. If he was THAT good why did no top club ever show an interest?
We thought Damien Duff was world class! He spent 2 years doing well at Chelsea and was deemed surplus to requirements and gotten rid of. Now when he should be at his peak he is preparing for life in english footballs second tier
Some here would tell you Richard Dunne is John Terrys equal!! Again, no one outside Ireland would agree and with City looking to get rid, he is being linked with the likes of Sunderland!!!
Andy Reid, some of ye see him as the missing link that will make us a real team again......shame no one told Roy Keane/Ricky Sbragia/Martin Jol/Ramos that. They cant see it!

At one stage some of ye thought Steve Finnan was of to Inter Milan and Gary Breen was going to Barca!!!

And dare anyone suggest otherwise.......

i would only consider buffon ahead of given, finnan up to a few years ago was one of the best full backs in europe , no one thought gary breen was world class but he did have a medical with barce/inter milan a far as i know. Duff at his peak was world class and if any1 else thinks otherwise then , im sorry , but they dont have a clue, i will tell you Dunne IS one of the best centre backs in the prem and he will prove it this season and city are treating him like sh*te , if dunne was english ,the british tabloids would have him rated at 30million sterling, andy reid is a very good player but i dont think he is raved about on FOOT, plus i dont think he would fit into traps tactics so therefore he aint the missing link


we obviously dont all agree on players ability ere , but i dont think we over rate our players - we have some extremely good players e.g keane, given, dunne, etc but we also realise we are a small nation with a small pool etc etc and we have some very ordinary players also

[back of the net]

I said both of these things.

My simple view is that Doyle is better than Bendtner who plays for Arsenal quite regularly. He's not a patch on Van Persie or Adebayor though. Dunne is better than any CB at Arsenal, bar Gallas maybe, but Gallas blows hot & cold. CB has been a glaring weak spot in Arsenal's team for a long time. Arsenal lack maturity, character, leadership and physicality in certain areas. Both those Irish players have great attitudes. They'd be relatively cheap and good business for a club operating on a budget and whose squad has been stretched very thin by regular injuries to their better players. If Arsenal had pots of money they could do a lot better.

imo stutts , you are right , doyle is far better than bendter and also agree with ur anaolgy on dunne......as u say who is overrated here?

[Supreme feet]

It's a bit of a mixed bunch. Some of our players are hyped, but others are definitely unfairly written off. We do have a tendency to put unrealistic expectations on young players; players like Stephen McPhail, Richie Partridge, Graham Barrett, Michael Reddy, Shaun Thornton, Jason Gavin, Darren Potter and (so far) Anthony Stokes all failed to live up to initial media hype, based solely on performances with successful underage teams. However, looking back, it appears that we (fans and media) sorely under-rated players like Carsley, Holland, Kinsella, Cunningham and Gary Kelly; all solid pros who contributed to decent, competitive Irish teams. Going further back, even Niall Quinn, Townsend, Cascarino, McLoughlin and Phelan incurred criticism from fans and media for not being 'top class'.

Most of our current squad would probably struggle to make an impression at top 4 Premiership clubs, but that's not exactly a revelatory statement. Sweden only have two players playing for 'G14' clubs. Croatia have three, and that's the kind of standard we're trying to aspire to. The likes of Dunne, St. Ledger, McGeady, Hunt, Steven Reid, Andrews and Doyle aren't going to be strutting their stuff for Barca or Inter anytime soon, but as long as we're good enough to beat Cyprus and Montenegro, and win a play-off against a similarly average European side, I'll be happy. Some people seem to think that if our players aren't playing for Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal, they - and the national team - must be rubbish, and incapable of competing or qualifying for anything. It's just not true.

[Lenny82]

An Ceannaire raises an interesting point. I think we do over-rate our players.

Although Keane is by far our best striker he wouldn't be in the top 15 strikers in the EPL and he may find himself picking splinters out of his arse this season if Crouch and Defoe link up like they did at Portsmouth.

Poor Kevin Kilbane has been a hero for Ireland in the past but based on his last few performance's it is time that he got lolli-popped. He's gives his heart and soul for 90 minutes but he has cost us 4 valuable points against Bulgaria and there could be worse to come. If it were to happen again and he cost's us points and possible qualification for next summer people won't remember him for the good games.

I'm saving my judgement on younger players like Fahey, McCann and McCarthy until I see how regularly they feature and how they perform this season.

[eirebhoy]

An Ceannaire raises an interesting point. I think we do over-rate our players.
...
Poor Kevin Kilbane has been a hero for Ireland in the past but based on his last few performance's it is time that he got lolli-popped. He's gives his heart and soul for 90 minutes but he has cost us 4 valuable points against Bulgaria and there could be worse to come. If it were to happen again and he cost's us points and possible qualification for next summer people won't remember him for the good games.
em, I don't think Kilbane is highly rated by Ireland fans...

[weldoninhio]

imo stutts , you are right , doyle is far better than bendter and also agree with ur anaolgy on dunne......as u say who is overrated here?

What are you on about?? Nicklas Bendtnar is 21 years old. He is a big, strong, mobile player (8 goals in 26 international games)

Doyle will be 26 in 2 months and has 6 goals in 26 international games.

Doyle is a very good player, but to compare him to Bendtner, who is 4 years his junior and has a similar goalscoring record already is ridiculous!!

In Club terms Doyle has 56 goals in 160 games, Bendtner has 37 in 130. Considering Doyle played 2 of those seasons in the Championship against lesser talented opposition and that he was first choice striker for almost 3 of those seasons and Bendtner had one season in the Championship as first choice and has never been a first choice starter for Arsenal i think his record more that stands up to Doyles.

That is a prime example of Irish Fans over-rating their players!!!!

[as_i_say]

I remember the NI commentator (Jackie Fullerton?) referring to David Healy as "truely world class" at a time when he couldn't get in the Fulham team

:D Nothing like a goal against Liechtenstein to get Jackie Fullerton as excited as an orangeman on the Garvahy.

[dr_peepee]

Trappatoni gets stick for his tactics, but with the limited ability of the players available for selection this is the best way for the team to get results.

Have to say I don't recall many people complaining about Trapps tactics here.. Tactics on the pitch anyway.

[Brendan 82]

Not nearly as much as other countries. I was in Morocco couple years ago when they were in the final of the African Nations Cup. I also went to a couple club matches there, talk about delusion. I won't even repeat some of the crap I heard there. If anything I see a lot of negativity about our players (this thread being an example). I don't see anyone on here claiming we are worldbeaters

[Drumcondra 69er]

I said both of these things.

My simple view is that Doyle is better than Bendtner who plays for Arsenal quite regularly. He's not a patch on Van Persie or Adebayor though. Dunne is better than any CB at Arsenal, bar Gallas maybe, but Gallas blows hot & cold. CB has been a glaring weak spot in Arsenal's team for a long time. Arsenal lack maturity, character, leadership and physicality in certain areas. Both those Irish players have great attitudes. They'd be relatively cheap and good business for a club operating on a budget and whose squad has been stretched very thin by regular injuries to their better players. If Arsenal had pots of money they could do a lot better.

If Wegner had bought Given and Dunne 2 or 3 years ago Arsenal would have challenged more the last few years then they did. Could you imagine Richard Dunne doing what Gallas did at Birmingham? He could do worse then looking at Dunne now.

[Drumcondra 69er]

What are you on about?? Nicklas Bendtnar is 21 years old. He is a big, strong, mobile player (8 goals in 26 international games)

Doyle will be 26 in 2 months and has 6 goals in 26 international games.

Doyle is a very good player, but to compare him to Bendtner, who is 4 years his junior and has a similar goalscoring record already is ridiculous!!

In Club terms Doyle has 56 goals in 160 games, Bendtner has 37 in 130. Considering Doyle played 2 of those seasons in the Championship against lesser talented opposition and that he was first choice striker for almost 3 of those seasons and Bendtner had one season in the Championship as first choice and has never been a first choice starter for Arsenal i think his record more that stands up to Doyles.

That is a prime example of Irish Fans over-rating their players!!!!

Can't agree. Doyle may have been playing in the Championship but Arsenal create a hell of a lot more chances then Reading so it cuts both ways. Bendtner is poor for me, Doyle would put away far more on a goals per chances ratio.

[Stuttgart88]

He is a big, strong, mobile player (8 goals in 26 international games)with a really suspect temprament, questionable work ethic and an appalling goals-to-opportunities ratio. Ask any Arsenal fan if they rate him and you'll get a resounding no. Stuttgart were interested in buying him for £8m apparently - Arsenal should have taken it. He's got potential but once an arrogant trouble-maker, always an arrogant trouble maker.

Stuff club form & comparisons anyway: I've been more than happy with Doyle's performances for Ireland. He is vital to Trap's system, just as Aldridge was to Jack's. He's selfless, physical and good in the air but has yet to click with Keane properly and gets woeful service from midfield.

I'd prefer to have Torres available for us but we don't. I don't think I overate Doyle but I've been very happy with most of his Irish performance over the last year and a bit.

[weldoninhio]

Can't agree. Doyle may have been playing in the Championship but Arsenal create a hell of a lot more chances then Reading so it cuts both ways. Bendtner is poor for me, Doyle would put away far more on a goals per chances ratio.

Arsenal create a lot more chances than Reading, but Bendtner has never been a first choice striker for them, like Doyle was at Reading. Most Arsenal fans are happy that Bendtner will get more chances now that Adebayor is gone.

But you probably have more knowledge than Arsene Wenger, he's only brought through one or two top class players.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't know any Arsenal fan that rates Bendtner & thinks he is ready to step in for Adebayor.

Wenger is a superb manager but is well known to have his blind spots. It's also well known that the Arsenal dressing room is a fragile place - Bendtner is not the type of personality Arsenal needs. The other players - not just Adebayor - don't have much time for him. For a big guy his reaction to going north in the Carling Cup against teams like Burnley made me squirm with embarassment.

[back of the net]

Arsenal create a lot more chances than Reading, but Bendtner has never been a first choice striker for them, like Doyle was at Reading. Most Arsenal fans are happy that Bendtner will get more chances now that Adebayor is gone.

But you probably have more knowledge than Arsene Wenger, he's only brought through one or two top class players.

no one here is doubting wengers knowledge , ppl are just giving their opinion.

from what i have seen of doyle and bendtner - i think doyle is a far better player than bendtner. I think he gives alot more to the team as a whole than bendtner.

Your comments bout bendtner being younger and his limited starts are correct and fair. But doyle has been played regularly out of position for reading and also has poorer players around him.

In time you maybe proved right about bendtner , but a player can only be judged on what he has produced on the pitch and from i have seen i believe doyle is a better player and would take him everytime ahead of bendtner.


bendtner has come through arsenals academy - i dont believe that if bendtner was at another club now that arsenal would sign him - wengers consistent refusal to spend money on players is what is keeping bendtner at the club imo and is the reason he is getting games



as you say now thats abedayor is gone - he will get a chance to prove himself and u may well be proved right ....but i doubt it

but only time will tell

[eirebhoy]

With Bendtner it's all about potential. If he was at his current level in 5 years he won't be playing for Arsenal and certainly won't be getting sold for £6.5m.

[weldoninhio]

Football365 letters page has had a lot of Arsenal fans stating that they are delighted that Adebayor is gone and that Bendtner will be able to fill his boots.

He is, and will in the future, be better than Doyle, who is not even guarenteed to be Wolves first choice striker.

[DeLorean]

But you probably have more knowledge than Arsene Wenger, he's only brought through one or two top class players.

Good point. From now on we won't bother rating players at all, we'll just look first to see who has managed them and whatever rating we give the manager we'll just give to the player too.

[back of the net]

Football365 letters page has had a lot of Arsenal fans stating that they are delighted that Adebayor is gone and that Bendtner will be able to fill his boots.

He is, and will in the future, be better than Doyle, who is not even guarenteed to be Wolves first choice striker.

oh well ,if alot of Arsenal fans say it on FOOTBALL 365 about an Arsenal player then you must be right.....Did you ever think maybe its the Arsenal fans who are the ones overrating their player??

imo he is currently not a patch on kevin doyle ...and i cant see him being much better than doyle in the future....but thats just my opinion

[Drumcondra 69er]

Arsenal create a lot more chances than Reading, but Bendtner has never been a first choice striker for them, like Doyle was at Reading. Most Arsenal fans are happy that Bendtner will get more chances now that Adebayor is gone.

But you probably have more knowledge than Arsene Wenger, he's only brought through one or two top class players.

If you'd read the original comparison it was based on goals per games.

Most Arsenal fans I know think Bendtner's a stocking. With an attitude problem to rival Adebayor.

Your 2nd paragraph is childish beyond belief and would be more suited to a bebo page then this message board.

[tricky_colour]

I think you need to take into acount that many players play better for Ireland than they do for thier clubs.

[shakermaker1982]

Given is a class keeper. I don't think anybody can argue with that one?

Keane and Dunne are solid Premiership performers week in week out and have been excellent when representing their country. They are not 'world class' as such but I'm delighted they are Irish. Could English fans say they've seen the best of Lampard/Gerrard and co in an English shirt? According to Andy Gray at the last WC England had 8/9 WORLD CLASS players. I nearly fell off my chair.

Duff in his prime was a joy to watch. Injuries have taken their toll but he can still do the business for us which is what counts.

S Ireland looks like a real talent and it's a shame he has decided to quit international football because I imagine most managers would try and build the team around him.

At the end of the day as long as the Trap can get the team to gel, work hard and put teams under pressure we'll give a lot of countries a game (and probably draw 1-1!). We are hard to beat and are now starting to grind out results. I'd like to think I don't over estimate Irish player abilities but even a few weeks ago I posted on here I wouldn't swap Dunne for Terry in an Irish shirt. Maybe I'm completely crazy but I know Dunne has very rarely let us down and plays well in the big games for us.

[christo]

Although Keane is by far our best striker he wouldn't be in the top 15 strikers in the EPL and he may find himself picking splinters out of his arse this season if Crouch and Defoe link up like they did at Portsmouth.

Robbie Keane is number 10 on the all-time goal scoring list for the premiership, so in all fairness you can't really argue his top quality there he also is always up among top scorers every season and even managed to score 10 goals last year despite Bentez's efforts.

On the topic of the other players I think An_cinnaire must be the only person who thinks Given isn't world class, as stated before Duff was world class but moving to Newcastle ruined his career (like a lot of other players) Dunne had a very poor season last year but he was captain of one of the top (not top 4) clubs in England and was raved about. Finan was at one of the top clubs for years and has won the Champs League, you cannot doubt that he was world class at the time.

Andy Reid however is a special case as he doesn't seem to be world class, but he seems to be working hard and hopefully he can fulfil his potential that he does clearly have.

McShane was a big one though, he was given great reviews for his game against the Czech even though he didn't play great and was at fault for the goal.

[Stuttgart88]

McShane was a big one though, he was given great reviews for his game against the Czech even though he didn't play great and was at fault for the goal.Oh oh not that one again :) O'Shea & Henderson were at fault. McShane's error was not blocking a shot by a prolific international striker.

Cue recurring argument no. 73...

I thought his debut was really impressive. It's a pity what happened since though. I think it's fair to say he's not overrated by many now.

[ped_ped]

Given is world class.

A partnership of Dunne and O'Shea can compete with the best of them. I have never seen Kilbane play a bad game in an Ireland Jersey, and his last own goal occured because he was trying to defend.

Right-back is our problem, though McShane is still under-rated by the Irish public. I would not nor would many Irish people, give him a place on the Ireland team. But he's not sh!t, and that's what he's being called.

Duff was world class, and though he has dipped, he can change a game against ANY TEAM when he's on form. McGeady is relatively young, and still international standard, though he will, I hope, improve.

Stephen Hunt is a work-horse, and is one of my favourite players, though he is not world-class.

Kevin Doyle was subject to the other Irish rating problem: when at Cork City he was no worse than he is now, and yet he was dangerously under-rated. He is well-worth a place in the Ireland set-up and, more than that, good enough to play in the World Cup. Keane is top class, for all the reasons christo, above, stated.

Now as for Andy Reid, he is RIDICULOUSLY over-rated. In the Premier Legaue this season, we may well have six midfielders on Premier League starting 11's:

Andrews, Stephen Reid, Delap, Lawrence, Whelan and Fahey.

Andy Reid will not be one of them.

So where is his genius being displayed? Why is he a supposed shoe-in for a place in the Irish squad while not in the SUNDERLAND squad?

[irishfan86]

Given is world class.

A partnership of Dunne and O'Shea can compete with the best of them. I have never seen Kilbane play a bad game in an Ireland Jersey, and his last own goal occured because he was trying to defend.

Right-back is our problem, though McShane is still under-rated by the Irish public. I would not nor would many Irish people, give him a place on the Ireland team. But he's not sh!t, and that's what he's being called.

Duff was world class, and though he has dipped, he can change a game against ANY TEAM when he's on form. McGeady is relatively young, and still international standard, though he will, I hope, improve.

Stephen Hunt is a work-horse, and is one of my favourite players, though he is not world-class.

Kevin Doyle was subject to the other Irish rating problem: when at Cork City he was no worse than he is now, and yet he was dangerously under-rated. He is well-worth a place in the Ireland set-up and, more than that, good enough to play in the World Cup. Keane is top class, for all the reasons christo, above, stated.

Now as for Andy Reid, he is RIDICULOUSLY over-rated. In the Premier Legaue this season, we may well have six midfielders on Premier League starting 11's:

Andrews, Stephen Reid, Delap, Lawrence, Whelan and Fahey.

Andy Reid will not be one of them.

So where is his genius being displayed? Why is he a supposed shoe-in for a place in the Irish squad while not in the SUNDERLAND squad?

Kilbane has had plenty of bad games in an Ireland jersey. He's also had plenty of good ones, but lately it's been more of the former unfortunately. He's not a left back, but we don't have a proper one so someone is gonna have to fill in there, so it may as well be Killer (definitely open to trying alternatives though).

I don't believe that Duff can change a game against anybody unfortunately. He is definitely a massive player for us though, and still gives international fullbacks a big problem.

In terms of Andy Reid, I don't care if Roy Keane and Sbragia, two nothing managers have dropped him. I've seen what he can do in an Ireland jersey, especially during the Kerr era, and know that he's worth a place in the squad.

Maybe he doesn't fit Trap's system, or he's a disruptive influence, and if he is being excluded for these reasons, that is Trap's prerogative and I trust him to make these decisions.

But it is not for a lack of ability. The managers of English teams should never dictate who is good or not good enough for our squad. Thankfully we've got a manager now who is willing to play players who are out of favour with their clubs if he believes they are our best option. We've seen the rewards so far with Whelan and Folan.