St. George's Flags at LOI Grounds

[SunderlandBohs]

I was talking to two friends of mine from Sunderland a few weeks back about tricolours at EPL grounds. One of the lads told me that they went with a few friends to a hurling match in Croke Park just for the laugh when they where in Dublin. They displayed a St. Georges flag with SAFC-Durham on it. The stewards told them to remove the flag or they'll be ejected from the ground. About a year later they went to see Rovers play in Tolka and got a few heckles from a couple of hoolies but most seemed not to notice. But this reminded me of the time Bohs v Shels in Tolka a few years backwhen a few Lincoln City fans were told by the Gardai to remove a St. Georges flag or else they'll be kicked out.

Would anyone mind if a group of English lads started following a LOI side and displayed a English with their team's name on it? how would people feel if they were told to remove a tricolour from an EPL ground because it was offensive?

[Mr A]

I couldn't give a toss what happens in an EPL ground.

On the other hand- my enemy's enemy is my friend.

[Rovers1]

I wouldn't give a monkeys! They'd be giving money to the club their following! Makes a difference from the barstoolers going over to England, giving their money to British clubs. I suppose with it being a Gah match, the guards might feel it might cause 'offence' to the straw hats and hang sangwiches????

[Sheridan]

Only minnows bring national flags to club games. That said, I wouldn't notice/care if someone brought a George's Cross to an LOI game and I think most Irish football fans, being inherently more intelligent than Gah folk, would be similarly indifferent.

how would people feel if they were told to remove a tricolour from an EPL ground because it was offensive? I fully support the removal, confiscation and/or jizzing on of any tricolours displayed at English grounds.

[brianw82]

It is a bit hypocritical alright. We expect the English to be comfortable with our flags yet make a big deal of it when they bring theirs over.

[Dodge]

Pats fans had a flag a few years with the national flags of all players in the squad, including the England one.

Don't think anyone cared.

[SunderlandBohs]

Most LOI fans I ask didn't really care. But the barstoolers have a totally different opinion. Funny because most won't dare enter a LOI ground!

[brianw82]

Most LOI fans I ask didn't really care. But the barstoolers have a totally different opinion. Funny because most won't dare enter a LOI ground!

Funny that, coz they're the ones bringing the tricolours to English grounds. :rolleyes:

[Scram]

I was talking to two friends of mine from Sunderland a few weeks back about tricolours at EPL grounds. One of the lads told me that they went with a few friends to a hurling match in Croke Park just for the laugh when they where in Dublin. They displayed a St. Georges flag with SAFC-Durham on it. The stewards told them to remove the flag or they'll be ejected from the ground. About a year later they went to see Rovers play in Tolka and got a few heckles from a couple of hoolies but most seemed not to notice. But this reminded me of the time Bohs v Shels in Tolka a few years backwhen a few Lincoln City fans were told by the Gardai to remove a St. Georges flag or else they'll be kicked out.

Would anyone mind if a group of English lads started following a LOI side and displayed a English with their team's name on it? how would people feel if they were told to remove a tricolour from an EPL ground because it was offensive?


SAFC Durham OBVIOUSLY has little to do with any hurling game. If it was a St. G Cross with one of the hurling teams actually playing on it then fair enough, the same for any supporting a LOI team.

Union Jack, now...that's a different story! :mad:

It does seem like your mates are being childishly provocative though and are doing this for no other reason.

[sligoman]

I would have no problem with it but I know plenty would. I even asked about bringing an England flag(signed by our English players) to hang up in the Showgrounds on here before and the response was not good.

Ireland flags are offensive in the Brandywell too;)

[EalingGreen]

It does seem like your mates are being childishly provocative though and are doing this for no other reason.
I wouldn't dare to presume those guys motives, and neither should you (imo).
In my long experience, English people are usually FAR less hung up about flags and emblems than Irish people (esp in NI).
My guess is that those guys are actually advertising that they are from Sunderland, and have chosen an England flag since it is also the club's colours. In which case, they probably also bring it with them to concerts, or on holiday etc.
Therefore, I feel the appropriate response at Croke would have been a quiet word to the effect that England flags have a particular resonance at that stadium, so that they could simply fold it up and get on with watching the game. Unless they were being abusive etc, to threaten to kick them out is way over-the-top imo, especially since they have paid their admission fee like everyone else, and I would be prepared to bet there was no mention of such flags either on the ticket or anywhere else.
Anyhow, it doesn't surprise me in the least, what with the parochial and small-minded attitudes which pervade Gaelic games. Their loss, I'd say.

As for Tricolours at EPL games, in my experience these are very common, esp at clubs with ROI players. Indeed, one sees flags from just about every nation these days and no-one gives a stuff - which is just as it should be (imo).

[SunderlandBohs]

SAFC Durham OBVIOUSLY has little to do with any hurling game. If it was a St. G Cross with one of the hurling teams actually playing on it then fair enough, the same for any supporting a LOI team.

Union Jack, now...that's a different story! :mad:

It does seem like your mates are being childishly provocative though and are doing this for no other reason.

True, but look at the games at EURO 08. There was tricolours and St.Georges flag there. Last season a Dublin GAA flag was on display at the SoL and no one cared. I've brought a Bohs flag to the Nou Camp for a game. Don't know why just did.

Spot on Ealing Green. They bring this to flag to cricket matches. They just want go and see a hurling match just like some people who go to a bull fight in Madrid. They didn't see the harm in it.

[dcfcsteve]

True, but look at the games at EURO 08. There was tricolours and St.Georges flag there. Last season a Dublin GAA flag was on display at the SoL and no one cared. I've brought a Bohs flag to the Nou Camp for a game. Don't know why just did.

I suspect we all know the fundamental difference. Let's be realistic here - 800 years of history explains why some people wouldn't welcome English flags in certain Irish places. That doesn't make it right - but it does make it more understandable than most here seem to be letting on.

An English flag would be no more welcome at many football grounds in Scotland or Wales, I can assure you. For the same reasons.

And the reason why Irish/Welsh/Scottish flags don't provoke a similar reaction in England is, well, for the very same reason in-reverse. The 800 years of history in Ireland is largely perceived to have been a negative experience for one side not the other.

I agree that anyone displaying a triclour at games in England - particularly ones with Chelsea written on it - should be ejected from the grounds, have all their money, documents and clothes taken off them, and made to make their own way back to Oireland with nothing but the flag to protect their clearly limited dignity.

[EalingGreen]

I suspect we all know the fundamental difference. Let's be realistic here - 800 years of history explains why some people wouldn't welcome English flags in certain Irish places. That doesn't make it right - but it does make it more understandable than most here seem to be letting on.


Dear oh dear. Those guys are hardly responsible for "800 years of oppression etc", indeed I'm sure they're hardly even aware of it. Indeed, if they were prejudiced and antagonistic towards Irish people etc, I'm sure they wouldn't want to visit Ireland in the first place, never mind give their money to an organisation like the GAA.
They were just a group of lads who were in town for a break and they fancied going to a local sports event. As such, they would be positively welcomed in any other country (with a quiet word about the flag etc, where appropriate). But here, despite being happy enough to take their money, the GAA then threatened to kick them out for what was a simple misunderstanding. Pathetic.



An English flag would be no more welcome at many football grounds in Scotland or Wales, I can assure you. For the same reasons.

Sadly, you're probably correct. Doesn't make such petty-mindedness any more acceptable (imo). People need to grow up and live in the present, not the past - especially when we're talking about a simple football match ffs!


And the reason why Irish/Welsh/Scottish flags don't provoke a similar reaction in England is, well, for the very same reason in-reverse. The 800 years of history in Ireland is largely perceived to have been a negative experience for one side not the other.

And a football stadium is the correct venue for perpetuating such disagreements then, is it?
You know, considering you're a fan of a club which is notably successful in "managing" such a sensitive subject in far more difficult circumstances, I find it hard to believe that you appear to be defending clubs which ought to be in a position to avoid it altogether.



I agree that anyone displaying a triclour at games in England - particularly ones with Chelsea written on it - should be ejected from the grounds, have all their money, documents and clothes taken off them, and made to make their own way back to Oireland with nothing but the flag to protect their clearly limited dignity.I appreciate that your prescribed penalty is exagerrated for effect (at least I hope it is! :eek:), but I still think you are over-reacting drastically to what is generally a pretty harmless gesture.
For example, there is a family of season-ticket holders who sit next to my usual seat at White Hart Lane. When the dad occasionally brings his teenaged daughter, she always brings a Tricolour with her, to wave whenever Robbie Keane scores (He's her favourite Spurs player).
Although she may be 1st or 2nd generation Irish, she is clearly English-born and bred.
What on earth harm is there in her waving her flag?

[Da Real Rover]

St Georges cross no problem.
But the Union Jack is a no no.

[crc]

As it happens I saw this flag at the Cork v Bohs game in Turners Cross earlier this season. There didn't appear to be any bother and I think it was displayed for the whole game.
1384

[Happy shamrock]

As long as they pay at the turnstiles, i'd have no problem with them

[Straightstory]

St Georges cross no problem.
But the Union Jack is a no no.

We shall only reach full maturity as a proper nation when people can fly whatever flag of whatever country they wish in any ground in the country and nobody will be bothered in the slightest. But I suspect there will always be bitter, insecure, prejudiced bigots whose views are firmly stuck in the 19th century.

[celticV3]

We shall only reach full maturity as a proper nation when people can fly whatever flag of whatever country they wish in any ground in the country and nobody will be bothered in the slightest. But I suspect there will always be bitter, insecure, prejudiced bigots whose views are firmly stuck in the 19th century.
The union is not the flag of any country though?:confused: People having objections to a flag such as the union flag and what it represents is not bigoted and to brush it off as such is just ridiculous as people are entitled to object to what the flag represents.

[Umberside]

There's no similarity between a tricolour at an EPL game and a Union Jack/St George's flag.

The reason there's no problem with a tricolour at an EPL game is because the Premier League has an international fanbase, and flags of any country would be permitted.

Whereas the LOI has only a small (not even a national) fanbase and a Union Jack would cause mayhem (possibly).

If someone unfurled a tricolour at a Crawley Town or Accrington Stanley match then they would most likely be told to move it.

[Scram]

I wouldn't dare to presume those guys motives, and neither should you (imo).



One of the lads told me that they went with a few friends to a hurling match in Croke Park just for the laugh when they where in Dublin. They displayed a St. Georges flag with SAFC-Durham on it.

[Straightstory]

The union is not the flag of any country though?:confused: People having objections to a flag such as the union flag and what it represents is not bigoted and to brush it off as such is just ridiculous as people are entitled to object to what the flag represents.

What do you think it represents, then? Why are you offended by it?

[Salmon Coloured]

We shall only reach full maturity as a proper nation when people can fly whatever flag of whatever country they wish in any ground in the country and nobody will be bothered in the slightest. But I suspect there will always be bitter, insecure, prejudiced bigots whose views are firmly stuck in the 19th century.

Got it spot on. I just regard flags as pieces of cloth. Yes they have various representations connected to them but the day i get riled by one is the day I too should be barred from LOI grounds.

[irishultra]

why bother? unless its a national match no real point in bringing a flag of any country.

[SunderlandBohs]

One of the lads told me that they went with a few friends to a hurling match in Croke Park just for the laugh when they where in Dublin. They displayed a St. Georges flag with SAFC-Durham on it.

Scram you're just twisting peoples words. They we're in Dublin for the Shels v Sunderland. They fancied going to a hurling just for the experience and see what its like. Going to see Croke Park was a large part of it too. They unfurled the flag as they didn't think that it would cause any harm. The stewards told them to remove the flag or else they'll be throw out. They did with out any trouble and by all accounts enjoyed the day.

[boovidge]

There's no similarity between a tricolour at an EPL game and a Union Jack/St George's flag.

The reason there's no problem with a tricolour at an EPL game is because the Premier League has an international fanbase, and flags of any country would be permitted.

Whereas the LOI has only a small (not even a national) fanbase and a Union Jack would cause mayhem (possibly).

If someone unfurled a tricolour at a Crawley Town or Accrington Stanley match then they would most likely be told to move it.

There are often tricolour flags shown in the conference (seen it with my own eyes). No problem whatsoever.

[Straightstory]

There are often tricolour flags shown in the conference (seen it with my own eyes). No problem whatsoever.

Most people wouldn't even know what country it represents. Probably think it's the Ivory Coast flag or something. A tricolour at English grounds is a complete non-issue.

[dcfcsteve]

The reason there's no problem with a tricolour at an EPL game is because the Premier League has an international fanbase, and flags of any country would be permitted.

It's got nothing to do with the English game being international and our own being some parochial back-water, and everything to do with the Irish and our attitude towards the English/British - an attitude that isn't reciprocated by and large.

Imagine what would've happend in the early 1980's if someone took an Argentinian flag to a football game in England, for example. International my arse...


If someone unfurled a tricolour at a Crawley Town or Accrington Stanley match then they would most likely be told to move it.

You're waaayyyy off the mark there. They really wouldn't care (except maybe at Aldershot, which is a town of about 20,000 squaddies). The likes of Crawley would just be delighted to have the fans there ! I'll take a tricolour to the next AFC Wimbledon game I go to to prove the point.

Even in Guildford or Warrington you wouldn't find animosity towards the Irish flag form 99.9% of the population - despite them being towns that were bombed by the IRA in living memory.

The Irish just don't do 'moving on' very well......! :eek:

[boovidge]

You have to live in England to realise how little the English know/care about their history with Ireland.

[celticV3]

What do you think it represents, then? Why are you offended by it?
I view it as representing colonialism and imperialism, something that is relative to this Island and can explain why people may be offended at the sight of the union flag. People are more than entitled to display their national flag but the union flag is not a flag of any nation and what it does represent can be offensive.

[brianw82]

I view it as representing colonialism and imperialism, something that is relative to this Island and can explain why people may be offended at the sight of the union flag. People are more than entitled to display their national flag but the union flag is not a flag of any nation and what it does represent can be offensive.

So would you think the same thing if some Yank tourists hung the stars 'n' stripes in the Showgrounds? What it represents is currently much worse, in my opinion.

[celticV3]

So would you think the same thing if some Yank tourists hung the stars 'n' stripes in the Showgrounds? What it represents is currently much worse, in my opinion.

I love how the thread has turned into "what I think of certain flags":D

In certain places the stars and stripes do represent colonialism and imperialism, but that is not necessarily Ireland as Ireland has never been invaded by America, except maybe through pop culture. Therefore people are less likely to get offended by the stars and stripes compared to the union flag as the union is more relative to Ireland.

[brianw82]

I love how the thread has turned into "what I think of certain flags":D

In certain places the stars and stripes do represent colonialism and imperialism, but that is not necessarily Ireland as Ireland has never been invaded by America, except maybe through pop culture. Therefore people are less likely to get offended by the stars and stripes compared to the union flag as the union is more relative to Ireland.

Indeed, and I don't like where this thread is going at all.

It's all open to interpretation so, isn't it? The people getting 'offended' by the Union Jack or the St. George have never been 'oppressed' by the British (or English) in their lives, yet they're happy to speak their language every day, shop in their supermarkets and take cheap flights to their country.

[BohDiddley]

I don't see any problem whatsoever with an England flag at an Irish event. But Sunderland flags should be subject to a blanket ban. :p

Seriously, anyone who is offended by the flag of England at a sporting event, assuming it is not accompanied by a group of BNP/NF/K18 boneheads, really needs to get a life.

[celticV3]

It's all open to interpretation so, isn't it? The people getting 'offended' by the Union Jack or the St. George have never been 'oppressed' by the British (or English) in their lives, yet they're happy to speak their language every day, shop in their supermarkets and take cheap flights to their country.
I wasn't on about the St. Georges flag. The union jack and it representing the union which is meant to include a partitioned part of this country allows for people to be offended at its presence in this country. That is not exclusive in anyway to LOI grounds.

[celticV3]

Seriously, anyone who is offended by the flag of England at a sporting event, assuming it is not accompanied by a group of BNP/NF/K18 boneheads, really needs to get a life.
Exactly.

[roinuj]

i go to a lot of games in england every year and theres tri colours everywhere,
and it dosent seem to bother the english people.
and when ipswich played in the rsc a few weeks ago there was 2 georges flags and it didnt seem to bother anyone there.
its only a few dopes over here who are living in the past that have the problems.
clowns.

[cheech]

All depends on the relevance of the situation.

Harps played Ipswich a few weeks ago and there was St George's and Union flags there. No one had a problem.

If Harps had of been playing Derry and either of these flags were taken out for example, what do people think would happen?

[Sheridan]

It would have been acknowledged as a weak wind-up attempt and ignored, I imagine.

[cheech]

It would have been acknowledged as a weak wind-up attempt and ignored, I imagine.

Were you ever at a Harps Derry match?

[Sheridan]

Not lately. Have I missed any riots, out of interest?

[cheech]

Not lately. Have I missed any riots, out of interest?

Why bother replying to a question that you obviously don't know anything about?

[The Lep]

In response to the george's cross flag being removed in croker , it may be the fact that it may have been hanging over an advertising hording and if so, many flags have been removed because of this no matter what the flag was.
As for them in League grounds then it should be welcomed as at least the flag owners are showing an interest in our league matches.

[dcfcsteve]

All depends on the relevance of the situation.

Harps played Ipswich a few weeks ago and there was St George's and Union flags there. No one had a problem.

If Harps had of been playing Derry and either of these flags were taken out for example, what do people think would happen?

Depends who took them out. If it was Harps fans - probably laughter. If City fans - probably confusion. Though at least it's red and white :)

A few scrotes at our away game versus Gretna stood over next to the City fans waving the Union flag and thinking we'd get really annoyed. City fans just laughed at them and then sang 'cheerio' when the stewards through them out. So not the mayhem you seem to be suggesting might happen.

Some people have too much time on their hands to worry about flags.

[dcfcsteve]

Were you ever at a Harps Derry match?

I've been to plenty.

Why - what's supposed to happen ? *

*except from it being the biggest derby in the league :)

[Straightstory]

I view it as representing colonialism and imperialism, something that is relative to this Island and can explain why people may be offended at the sight of the union flag. People are more than entitled to display their national flag but the union flag is not a flag of any nation and what it does represent can be offensive.

200,000 Irishmen fought under the Unon Jack in the First World War (as opposed to less than three thousand who fought under the tricolour in the 1916 rebellion). They obviously didn’t find it offensive. Daniel O’Connell, along with Parnell, the great nationalist leader of 19th century Ireland, had no objection to the Union Jack. (Many of his political meetings ended with a toast to the Queen). Certainly, militant republicans in the 19th century and early 20th century Ireland would have objected to the Union Jack, but they would have not have been anything like a majority of the population. The mood of the country (according to historian Tom Garvin) was that a quarter of the country was actively nationalist, a quarter actively unionist, and the remaining half mildly nationalist - eg. Home Rulers. The popular demonisation of the Union Jack is largely a post-independence invention of Irish nationalists.
I suggest you read Garvin’s ‘Nationalist Revolutionaries in Ireland’, or indeed any of his other books on Irish nationalism. Or indeed any books on Irish history, as you clearly buy into the old myths and prejudices.

[MeathDrog]

Didn't people die so that the St George/Union Jack wouldn't be seen in Ireland anymore?

[Nesta99]

Didn't people die so that the St George/Union Jack wouldn't be seen in Ireland anymore?

No! Arguably people died to eject such flags and their 'owners', and subsequently as a mature, balanced and sensible independent nation welcome them back with respect as/when we wish on appropriate occasions eg sporting events, festivals etc just as we do when we travel to uk for say Glastonbury, cheltenham and so on

[The Lep]

didn't people die so that the st george/union jack wouldn't be seen in ireland anymore?


no .

[mysteryman]

There's no similarity between a tricolour at an EPL game and a Union Jack/St George's flag.

The reason there's no problem with a tricolour at an EPL game is because the Premier League has an international fanbase, and flags of any country would be permitted.

Whereas the LOI has only a small (not even a national) fanbase and a Union Jack would cause mayhem (possibly).

If someone unfurled a tricolour at a Crawley Town or Accrington Stanley match then they would most likely be told to move it.

the last part of your 'opinion' is very much wrong and you shouldnt say stuff if you dont have a notion about what your talking about, although irish tricolours would not be common at such lower league matches i dont think anybody could give a toss is england, a) because we are not small minded people like yourself... b) there are many young irish players in the lower leagues i think you'd find if you looked. and finally c) nobody could care less, its just a football match and someone is showing a flag which normally represents where there from, for example ireland, and they would be welcomed to whichever town or city in england very warmly and would properbly have a great laugh together with the english people in the pubs before and after the match no matter what division or standard of football they are spectating with there flag anywhere in england