Rugby-style Provincial Clubs

[Kivlehan]

I'm sure this has probably come up before, but do you think rugby style provincial clubs in football - Munster FC, Leinster FC, Ulster FC (realize that one's a sticky issue and I don't mean this to be an AIL thread), Connacht FC - could be more financially successful and have a wider appeal to the Irish public?

I'm not saying these would replace the current clubs, but compete against them, perhaps starting in the A Championship and build up. Irish rugby clubs of late have been very successful so it seems to me a natural point to consider whether that success could translate to football.

This could play out in a few different ways but one example would be if Cork and Limerick can't sustain financially viable and competitive clubs on their own, could they share a Munster FC and do so, where some matches are played in Cork, some in Limerick, maybe some in Waterford, etc.

(awaiting the tomatoes to be thrown by the crowd)

[Sheridan]

(awaiting the tomatoes to be thrown by the crowd)
Just tomatoes? Are you feeling lucky? :p

No, it wouldn't work. The provincial system in egg-chasing (which was only supposed to be temporary when the ERC started because the Irish clubs would have been uncompetitive otherwise) is predicated on regular and automatic access to top-flight international competition. It wouldn't work in football.

[ciaraa]

Probably not because if you look at how Rugby has utilised the provincial set up, they were really capitalising on existing formats (Munster as a rugby entity have existed for quite a while - albeit with a vastly inferior supporter base) and also they were not competing in the same competitions as Shannon, St Marys etc.
Also as the rugby teams are competing in a top level professional international competition (EC) then they were always going to appeal to the success/glamour seeking sporting public.

It might work, in an Irish football sense, if the league was completely revamped like the A-League in australia a few years ago and you just kept 1 or 2 existing clubs (say Shams and Derry) and then made up 6 new entities based on your provincial suggestion but nearly all traditional domestic fans would stay well away I reckon.

[endabob1]

Well there was the platinum 1 AIL proposal which was along similar lines, using existing clubs selected as much for the geographic locations as their success. This cause a lot of debate at the time and I would guesstimate 90%+ of LOI fans were against it, for various reasons but iirc the no initial promotion/relegation was a big issue, especially for the clubs being left behind.

There have been suggestions that the FAI could learn a bit from our cousins down under and their revamping of their league in the face of a similarly biased local media, but again the fears of "franchise football" raised their heads and again from the LOI regulars.

Basically it's my opinion that there's a large portion of the LOI support that are quite happy with the current structure and would rather it was pretty much left alone, the fear of change outweighs the potential for benefit.
Similarly the golden hordes of new fans are too apathetic to be bothered with local football, a lifetime of being spoonfes MOTD and skyball big 4 has left them with the deeply entrenched view that football only counts if it comes with the Sky logo in the top of the screen.
There needs a culture shift of massive proportions both from LOI fans & EPL(and other foreign league) fans in Ireland to get regular attendances at Irish football to a high enough level that would sustain a fully professional league of the quality you seem to aspire to.

[pixiehead]

Lads, You both mentioned the Austrailian A league. What exactly did they do down there? I was there last year and each club get 11,000 gates averge so whatever they done worked? Why cant we do that :confused:

[pineapple stu]

I'm sure this has probably come up before, but do you think rugby style provincial clubs in football - Munster FC, Leinster FC, Ulster FC (realize that one's a sticky issue and I don't mean this to be an AIL thread), Connacht FC - could be more financially successful and have a wider appeal to the Irish public?
You'd need to add in an extra one to take account of the largest concentration of people in the country. I'd suggest calling it Dublin City FC.

Hmmm... Seems I just answered your question...

[endabob1]

Lads, You both mentioned the Austrailian A league. What exactly did they do down there? I was there last year and each club get 11,000 gates averge so whatever they done worked? Why cant we do that :confused:

There have been a few threads on it but I'll plug my own :D

http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=53479

That said I haven't really follwed it since so I've no idea what has happened in the interveening 2 years except the 1 NZ team went under and were replaced by another

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-League

as usual though wiki has most of the answers! Seems to be still going relatively strong, Wellington is Rugby heartland (as all of NZ is I guess) so I think 7k isn't a bad return.
Perth is the interesting one, I'm pretty sure they got more when it was part of the old NASL, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perth_Glory_FC

Undoubtedly in my mind there are marketing lessons to be learned, but also they've made plenty of mistakes & it's better to learn from other peoples.

[endabob1]

You'd need to add in an extra one to take account of the largest concentration of people in the country. I'd suggest calling it Dublin City FC.

Hmmm... Seems I just answered your question...

Thanks for providing immediate evidence to substantiate one half of my post, all I need now is a barstooler to come on with a rant how it's all crap & will never be as good as watching the scouse derby on TV. :D

[elroy]

Big of a major difference between us and Australian population wise though.

I think the only way, teams from the Celtic nations are going to be able to compete at the top level of European football in future years is through the establishment of a Celtic League, with 4/5 teams from each country. It will bring in alot more advertising revenue than the LOI does at the moment and we could do alot worse than learn from the rugby model.

Obviously there would be problems/opposition with such a radical change to the traditional system, however I think the biggest stumbling block in this case would be Uefa who would not agree to a single league competition between clubs in three different associations.

[pineapple stu]

I'd say the SPL would have something to say about it too, to be honest.

Seriously, there's no panacea. The league won't get a massive boost from inviting Linfield or Rhyl in. Leinster v North Wales won't get any extra support, in part because they still won't be able to afford anyone half decent to drag the barstoolers away from the pubs. I really don't see why people can't just enjoy the league we have, and aim for gradual improvement.

[sonofstan]

I'd say the SPL would have something to say about it too, to be honest.

Seriously, there's no panacea. The league won't get a massive boost from inviting Linfield or Rhyl in. Leinster v North Wales won't get any extra support, in part because they still won't be able to afford anyone half decent to drag the barstoolers away from the pubs. I really don't see why people can't just enjoy the league we have, and aim for gradual improvement.

Yes to all of that.

A league with 10-12 financially secure, community based semi-pro outfits, able to build on success, but cope with failure, and able to invest in facilities and in building links with the rest of the sport, might, eventually, produce long term sustainable progress: the current 'win or bust' model never will.

Instead of trying to convince those who support British teams that the LoI is just like the EPL or SPL if you squint, or that it could be, we should emphasise the differences: it's local, it's cheap, it's not owned by middle eastern hedge funds (or energy drink companies) and it's a lot more fun than the premiership in a lot of ways, with fans that tend to be funny and independent minded - instead of trying to convince people that this is 'nearly as good as' big football, try and show why, actually, it's a lot better in some respects.

[peadar1987]

To quote a famous Northern Irishman:


NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!

[thischarmingman]

I suggest switching to a 13-team league.

[dcfcsteve]

MODS : Can we have a smiley for 'slaps head in hands whilst shaking it slowly from side to side'.

And it's not even the off season...... :eek:

[BohDiddley]

Red Bull Leinster v Red Bull Munster. I can't wait.

As for Australia. Has anyone mentioned geographic distance from EPL as a possible factor in better attendances? That might just play a part...

[pineapple stu]

Or a centralised fund of money used to bring relative big name players (including current Australian internationals) home? Or a tradition of watching local teams in non-knock-out formats? (How long is the Aussie Rules season?)

Lots of differences.

[Happy shamrock]

Can't imagine Connaught or Munster being much good. And it wouldn't work in normal european competitions

[Ezeikial]

I suggest switching to a 13-team league.

no, no, no - we need a 32 team league, with guest teams from London and New York

[Flexy]

In Rugby the All Ireland League has been a huge success, its actually benefited the Irish National team dont see why it couldnt be the same for football with better publicity and advertising

[pineapple stu]

Because the IRFU can afford to keep O'Driscoll and all the other big-name egg chasers (don't know their names) at home, whereas the FAI can't afford to keep Keane et al here. All because rugby is a much less popular, and therefore much poorer, sport than football.

[gustavo]

MODS : Can we have a smiley for 'slaps head in hands whilst shaking it slowly from side to side'.

And it's not even the off season...... :eek:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/lord_english/Facepalm/Worf.gif

[endabob1]

Or a centralised fund of money used to bring relative big name players (including current Australian internationals) home? Or a tradition of watching local teams in non-knock-out formats? (How long is the Aussie Rules season?)

Lots of differences.



As for Australia. Has anyone mentioned geographic distance from EPL as a possible factor in better attendances? That might just play a part...

There are differences in circumstance for sure but;
Irish rugby has to a large degree overcome the lack of a tradition of watching local teams in non-knock-out formats, there are different obstacles for Irish soccer but I truely believe it can be done.
Fooball (or soccer in Oz) was also way down the list of spectator sports, behind 2 Rugby codes, Cricket & AFL and in the same league as swimming, basketball & Hockey, it has really lifted itself into the higher level in recent years.

For me there are a lot of similarities;
I can only really vouch for Victoria having lived there but the local media was completely obsessed with AFL, other sports were crammed into a few paragraphs unless it was olympics/wallabies/world cup. It was a virtual model of the GAA media bias in Ireland, this has been overcome to such an extent that a mate sent me a copy of the back of the Herald Sun (Melbourne AFL obsessed tabloid) when Melbourne Victory won the A League and it had relegated AFL to a small paragraph in the corner.
The old league was seen as a joke by AFL ARL & Super 14 fans, but by marketing it properly they have upped the profile and lured in thousands of fans who would never have been to an old NASL game.


BohDiddley's reference to the geographic distance is a very valid one, and it's a major stumbling block but I went to Athlone RTC (back in the day) and there was always a few of us who would go to Mels on a Friday night, the majority of us had "other" teams and some even were part of the weekenders going to see Everton, Spurs & Sheff Utd (there's always one) amongst others but we all wanted to watch live football and the LOI was and is the best that we had on offer.
There will be a percentage of EPL/SPL etc.. fans who will never be converted whatever the situation but there are a lot who could be persuaded to venture into the unknown world of LOI with a little encouragement.

The point about the returning internationals is a moot one, if the FAI wanted to really promote the league they could foot the bill for a marquee player for each of the top flight teams but personally I don't think that's a long term stratedgy, I rather the investment was made in coaching and keeping young players at home, I know there's a thread elsewhere on this but it's the only way of getting long term success.
I think the centre of excellence model that they are building towards is on the right tracks and I hope the coaching standards encourage young players to stay in Ireland but it's a chicken and egg situation, if you're 17 and being courted by 2 or 3 UK sides alongside the FAI 9 out of 10 will go to the UK because currently he perception is there is a greater chance of success.
The truth is the best 2 players of the last 20 years in Irish football Roy Keane & Paul McGrath both started their careers inthe LOI, I really don't know why this message is enforced more.