Calling anyone that edits on wikipedia or who has good sources of information!

[sligobhoy67]

Guys there is a bit of a ding dong battle going on over at wikipedia with regards the general notability of Irish players and more specifically players who participate in the FAI League of Ireland.

Basically players are automatically notable if they play in a professional league. At the moment the "heads" over at the football project on wikipedia do not consider players in the Irish league notable and have been trying to get their articles deleted. Recent articles which have been up for deletion are those for -

Seamus Coleman - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/S%C3%A9amus_Coleman

Tony Moore (Bohs player from the 20's and 30's) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tony_Moore_(Irish_footballer)

And Shamrock Rovers player Danny O'Connor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/David_O%27Connor_(footballer)

However, it is relatively easy to defend players notability if they have played more recently because there will be plenty of stuff on the internet. However, it gets a lot more difficult to source information to prove players notability if they played pre circa 1995. Hence the reason I am here.

at the moment there is a discussion regarding mass deletion of LoI players including

Former Sligo Rovers, Bohs and Harps player - Liam Patton

Former Athlone, Monaghan and Bohs player - Alan Kinsella

Former Sligo Rovers and Bohs - Andy Brady

Former Longford Town players - Paul McNally

Former Limerick and Bohs players Marcus Tuite

and former Drogheda United, Bohemian F.C., Monaghan United F.C. and Bray Wanderers A.F.C

Here is the link to the discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Liam_Patton

What I am looking for is people with information on the players or someone who knows about the players and can add to the articles to improve them.

Feel free to register an account and leave your own opinion whether that agrees with mine or not that doesnt really matter - the more input the better.

Thanks for your time.

[fionnsci]

Yeah it's getting quite annoying alright. It's hard to argue with them though as their criteria for notability involves having played in a fully professional league.

[Infadel]

Yet there is articles on English players back in the 20s and 30s even though it wasn't fully pro back then:rolleyes:.

[sligobhoy67]

Yet there is articles on English players back in the 20s and 30s even though it wasn't fully pro back then:rolleyes:.

If I was you I would register an account on wikipedia - its free and only takes second - and voice that opinion.

I cant stress this enough - we need bodies over there to improve Irish football articles. It costs nothing and only takes seconds to register an account and get started.

[centre mid]

And Shamrock Rovers player Danny O'Connor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/David_O%27Connor_(footballer)
.

AFAIK Danny O Connor is no longer involved in the League of Ireland.

[sligobhoy67]

AFAIK Danny O Connor is no longer involved in the League of Ireland.

he doesnt need to be. Ian Rush no longer plays for Liverpool but he is still a notable Liverpool player - if you get my meaning.

[centre mid]

Sorry I'm with you now

I'll sign up and try and help.

[sligobhoy67]

Sorry I'm with you now

I'll sign up and try and help.

well I am not trying to canvas votes either way per se, Although if you have an opinion please feel free to share it.

What I am trying to do is to get people to register at wikipedia and to improve the articles, add sources of information and generally get active in wikipedia.

[sligofan4ever]

well I am not trying to canvas votes either way per se, Although if you have an opinion please feel free to share it.

What I am trying to do is to get people to register at wikipedia and to improve the articles, add sources of information and generally get active in wikipedia.


Apparently a page for Rafael Cretaro keeps getting deleted because hes never played in a fully professional team, yet alot of players havent even played in a fully professional league and have pages for them.

[Joseph McSweene]

Added a page for Craid Duggan for City-will add pages for Pat Sul and Timmy Kiely soon. Need to get DOB, apperances and former club info though. Anyone any help on Pat Sul's former club info and the timeline for them?

[Martinho II]

Added a page for Craid Duggan for City-will add pages for Pat Sul and Timmy Kiely soon. Need to get DOB, apperances and former club info though. Anyone any help on Pat Sul's former club info and the timeline for them?

I know Pat Sul spent a full season with us before he came to ye. He was at Drogheda Utd for two seasons previously but couldnt play enough games due to injury. he started his career at ucd not sure how long he was at college !

[John83]

I'm getting mightily sick of the Wikipedia deletion wars (http://kk.org/ct2/2008/03/the-wikipedia-deletion-wars.php). It's rid me of any urge to contribute to the damned thing. It's chipped away at the genuinely encyclopaedic nature of the site and at the community spirit which built it.

The code to make a wiki is open source. The material on the site is copyleft. Would anyone be able to set up an LoI specific one up so we could port the league material from wikipedia to somewhere we can trust to understand the value of the project? Dahamsta seems a logical candidate, but we can't presume.

http://kk.org/ct2/delete-wikipedia.png

[John83]

I know Pat Sul spent a full season with us before he came to ye. He was at Drogheda Utd for two seasons previously but couldnt play enough games due to injury. he started his career at ucd not sure how long he was at college !
95 games, 4 goals. Played right back mainly, sometimes right mid, and at least once in centre mid. I can't remember the seasons, but he was around for our second most recent relegation, though I think he may have left that season.

[BohDiddley]

I'm getting mightily sick of the Wikipedia deletion wars (http://kk.org/ct2/2008/03/the-wikipedia-deletion-wars.php). It's rid me of any urge to contribute to the damned thing. It's chipped away at the genuinely encyclopaedic nature of the site and at the community spirit which built it.

The code to make a wiki is open source. The material on the site is copyleft. Would anyone be able to set up an LoI specific one up so we could port the league material from wikipedia to somewhere we can trust to understand the value of the project? Dahamsta seems a logical candidate, but we can't presume.

http://kk.org/ct2/delete-wikipedia.png
Good idea. But it looks like it'd have to be done fast.

[davidatrb]

Yeah it's getting quite annoying alright. It's hard to argue with them though as their criteria for notability involves having played in a fully professional league.

But thats just not true - they keep shoving that down your throat but the wording of the guideline is LEVEL, no mention of entire league. Besides it's not even a rule, it's a wikipedia guideline, which the documentation on the wiki says is open to exceptions.

There is two ways to beat them.

1. Jam-pack your articles with lots of sources and references to news, articles, profiles on the player, this will prove general notability, which overrides athletic notability.
2. Continue to point out that WP:ATH say "professional level" there is no mention that the entire League has to be fully professional, which is nonsense and completely un-workable as teams move up and down and go in and out of professionalism.

They keep deleting my articles too, even deleted hattrick hero Dean Barrett :(

[pineapple stu]

95 games, 4 goals. Played right back mainly, sometimes right mid, and at least once in centre mid. I can't remember the seasons, but he was around for our second most recent relegation, though I think he may have left that season.
2001-2004, if memory serves. Scored the goal in Cobh which sealed promotion.

[Joseph McSweene]

2001-2004, if memory serves. Scored the goal in Cobh which sealed promotion.

Thanks very much Stu-much appreciated!

[pineapple stu]

Check out STIGonline.com for more exact details, by the way. In the UCD tab, there's line-ups (in Excel format) for most of our games from 2001 to 2007, and a fair few other games going back to 1979 as well.

[Joseph McSweene]

Has anybody thought about asking Gareth on extratime.ie to create interviews and articles on players up for deletion as sources? I'm sure if people have the time (& contact details for the players!) he'd consider it. It would be a way of breaking this deletion arguement, they're using the often tight-nit community of wiki-editors, so why don't we use the even tighter group of Irish football online media?:D;)

[Joseph McSweene]

Hi all,

If anyone is trying to prevent the deletion of a League Of Ireland player on wikipedia-could they add the player name to this page so we can build up a list of players?

Cheers,
Joseph.

[SligoBrewer]

Has anybody thought about asking Gareth on extratime.ie to create interviews and articles on players up for deletion as sources? I'm sure if people have the time (& contact details for the players!) he'd consider it. It would be a way of breaking this deletion arguement, they're using the often tight-nit community of wiki-editors, so why don't we use the even tighter group of Irish football online media?:D;)

I've started doing it with whatever articles I write for extratime.

[fionnsci]

BTW this template is ****ed up, could someone revert it somehow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:League_of_Ireland_grounds

[Joseph McSweene]

I've started doing it with whatever articles I write for extratime.

Cheers Sligobrewer, hopefully we can get an article on David O'Connor which might help sway the arguement for his article being kept by the Footy project crowd.

[Réiteoir]

BTW this template is ****ed up, could someone revert it somehow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:League_of_Ireland_grounds

Done .

[Umberside]

Liam Kearney was up for deletion last September, the result was keep if that's of any interest.

[davidatrb]

These are the debates for anyone that is interested that saved some LOI players from deletion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Neil_Gallagher_(footballer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Liam_Kearney
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Seamus_Coleman

Im sure there are more, but that's what I got from a quick nose around.

[Umberside]

I think we should include in all the LOI articles that they are professional whether they are or not and the FAI League of Ireland page should call it a professional league.

[John83]

I think we should include in all the LOI articles that they are professional whether they are or not and the FAI League of Ireland page should call it a professional league.
It'll get hit with a [citation needed] before the day is out.

[passinginterest]

These are the debates for anyone that is interested that saved some LOI players from deletion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Neil_Gallagher_(footballer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Liam_Kearney
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Seamus_Coleman

Im sure there are more, but that's what I got from a quick nose around.

Here's the debate on Conor Sinnott, the article was nominated for deletion on 10-10-07 and the result was save. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Conor_Sinnott

[Umberside]

Here's the debate on Conor Sinnott, the article was nominated for deletion on 10-10-07 and the result was save. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Conor_Sinnott

If Conor Sinnott can be saved then any article can be saved.

[sligobhoy67]

Liam Kearney was up for deletion last September, the result was keep if that's of any interest.

it was kept!

[Umberside]

it was kept!

'Twas!

[TheBoss]

Why are these articles up for deletion, surely it goes against what wiki is about ?

[John83]

Why are these articles up for deletion, surely it goes against what wiki is about ?
There are wikipedia editors obsessed with the idea that their precious site is polluted with articles about trivial things, as if that matters.

[sligobhoy67]

There are wikipedia editors obsessed with the idea that their precious site is polluted with articles about trivial things, as if that matters.

to be fair there has to be a line on what is "notable" and what is not.

My personal opinion is that players in the FAI Premier League are more notable than players in Division Two (old 4th Division) of the English league - but others consider they are not and say that because its not a fuly pro league of the 4th division is then the 4th division is more notable.

Its a debate and the better you argue your respective case the an admin will come along decide which argument holds more weight.

[John83]

to be fair there has to be a line on what is "notable" and what is not.
For a print encyclopedia there must be a notability limit. For wikipedia, the limit could extend as far as "could anyone possibly want to look this up?" It's fallen well short of that, and now a subject which could have hundreds of interested readers is 'not notable'.

Also, it's not about notability for most of the editors doing the bulk of the deleting. It tends to be either an egotistical thrill of destruction or a anal ruleboundness about the criteria.

[sligobhoy67]

For a print encyclopedia there must be a notability limit. For wikipedia, the limit could extend as far as "could anyone possibly want to look this up?" It's fallen well short of that, and now a subject which could have hundreds of interested readers is 'not notable'.

Also, it's not about notability for most of the editors doing the bulk of the deleting. It tends to be either an egotistical thrill of destruction or a anal ruleboundness about the criteria.


I find it hard to disagree with much of that - however, I mtry to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume some good faith. The best way to ensure that the articles are kept is if posters on here register and account on wikipedia and improve the articles for players at their respective clubs.

[Umberside]

Jason Molloy and Niall Walsh are currently up for deletion.

[sligobhoy67]

Jason Molloy and Niall Walsh are currently up for deletion.

Walsh was deleted because he hasnt actually played a league game yet.

[Umberside]

Walsh was deleted because he hasnt actually played a league game yet.

Stupid really. Corry Evans hasn't played a match for Manchester United, plus there's no external links from third party sources or even being an international so really if Walsh was deleted, so should Evans.

[Dodge]

For a print encyclopedia there must be a notability limit. For wikipedia, the limit could extend as far as "could anyone possibly want to look this up?" It's fallen well short of that, and now a subject which could have hundreds of interested readers is 'not notable'.

Also, it's not about notability for most of the editors doing the bulk of the deleting. It tends to be either an egotistical thrill of destruction or a anal ruleboundness about the criteria.

Spot on. I used to edit it quite regularly, but stopped due to ridiculous over moderation.

If I see something wrong I'll still change it but don't bother looking to fill gaps...

[Umberside]

I just completely re-did the Gary Rogers page. I put in external links, put correct info into the infobox and wrote his biography.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Rogers

[sligobhoy67]

I just completely re-did the Gary Rogers page. I put in external links, put correct info into the infobox and wrote his biography.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Rogers

well done mate! really good article.

An article I did was the featured article on wikipedia yesterday.

It was one I did on Manchester based Irish boxer called Michael Gomez - not a bad honour considering there are over 3 miliion articles on wikipedia.

[Réiteoir]

Looking at the numerous debates on there - that Number57 sure has a pole up his arse about this

[Dodge]

I just completely re-did the Gary Rogers page. I put in external links, put correct info into the infobox and wrote his biography.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Rogers

His league appearances for Pats are wrong. He nly joined this year...

[Dunny]

His league appearances for Pats are wrong. He nly joined this year...

How many appearances has he made for Pat's this season then? Is it 22 or has Clarke started?

[Dodge]

Yep, all 22 games

[Dunny]

Yep, all 22 games

Done.

[Predator]

Forgive me if I'm wrong or if this has been said before, but I'm almost sure this exact same fiasco happened a few years ago and it actually resulted in the Wikiproject Irish Football being created by Danny Invincible. Doesn't that outline that there should be Wikipedia articles on all notable Irish footballers, including those who have played in the LoI?

WikiProject Irish Football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Irish_Football)

[sligobhoy67]

maybe if anyone has any further information on the Stephen Roche (the UCD one) they could add it to it to help improve it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Roche_(football)