Irish League clubs in Europe?

[JC_GUFC]

There's always talk of losing European spots if there was an All-Ireland League but the Irish League clubs results in Europe are nothing short of an embarrassment.

On top of that there are countless stories of players being unavailable due to being on holiday etc.

There can be no doubt that Distillery will lose money on this tie against some team from Georgia I've never heard of - they're already 4-0 down at the break.

Just going on the results of the non big 2 Irish league clubs in recent seasons I don't think it would matter if the Irish League lost a place.

08-09
Cliftonville v FC Copenhagen - 0-11 aggregate

07-08
Dungannon v Suduva - 1-4 aggregate (won home leg)

06-07
Portadown v Kaunas - 1-4 aggregate

05-06
Portadown v Viking - 1-3 aggregate

04-05
Portadown v Zalgiris - 2-4 aggregate (drew home leg)

03-04
Portadown v Malmo - 0-6 aggregate

I'm just focusing on these results because this is the place that the Irish League would be losing but with clubs not interested why would they care??

[Gather round]

There's always talk of losing European spots if there was an All-Ireland League but the Irish League clubs results in Europe are nothing short of an embarrassment.

On top of that there are countless stories of players being unavailable due to being on holiday etc.

There can be no doubt that Distillery will lose money on this tie against some team from Georgia I've never heard of - they're already 4-0 down at the break.

Just going on the results of the non big 2 Irish league clubs in recent seasons I don't think it would matter if the Irish League lost a place.

I'm just focusing on these results because this is the place that the Irish League would be losing but with clubs not interested why would they care??

Tonight was bad for Distillery, Cliftonville got gubbed in Denmark and your points about weak squads in the holiday month and losing money are fair enough. But for a team that hasn't played in Europe for 12 years it would matter, actually. Otherwise why enter?

The Irish League are unlikely to lose a place unless all the other minnows with their own leagues do too.

There isn't going to be an all-Ireland league in the foreseeable future.

[ifk101]

Copenhagen are 11 goals better than Cliftonville and tbh all of the LOI clubs would be looking to keep the score down against them. I don't think the other results that you highlight are that bad JC_GUFC as all of those games were against teams in mid-season.

As for Distillery; they had 5 players on holiday for last night's game and that should be unacceptable but apparently this isn't the case.

[Cymro]

I was surprised when I heard that, about the players on holiday. You would think that managers would start demanding their key players turn up for these games, especially since when they don't and you get results like this it reflects badly on the whole Irish league, which in turn is going to put people off watching it. They're disadvantaged enough by being a winter season system as it is without having a bunch of voluntary dropouts.

IMO managers should build clauses into contracts that their players have to turn up in these games. It would undoubtedly improve the showing of those clubs.

[AnnaghRed]

The prestige is in qualifying, at least it was in the days when you could realistically draw the likes of FC Porto, Marseille et al, and have a couple of competitive domestic games under your belt before the european games.

Personally, i'd rather suffer the ignominy of defeats at home to the likes of Zestafoni than move to summer football.

[EalingGreen]

I agree that IL results in Europe have been embarrassing in recent years, but there are two ways of looking at them (imo).

Either the clubs show a distinct lack of ambition, on the basis that since the European competitions were radically overhauled (3 competitions reduced to 2, with seeding and qualifying stages and prelim games played much earlier in the year etc), IL clubs no longer take Europe seriously. A clear indication of this is allowing players to go on holiday in July.

Or they are simply being realistic. That is, with a basically part-time set-up and a Winter season, there is no way that clubs may sustain what is almost a 12 month season (i.e. regular season ends in May, new season starts in July, with a need for at least some pre-season training in between).

By contrast, with a much more nearly full-time set-up and a Summer season, the LOI should be far better placed to compete in Europe (at least in the early stages). Indeed, from what I gather, the incentive of European prize money etc to an extent led the move to Summer football and f-t status, rather than the other way round.

Do LOI supporters consider this strategy to have been successful? I'd guess Derry City fans would say so, for instance.

Or has this attempt to "chase the (European) dream" merely added to the financial difficulties which a number of clubs are presently facing, almost like a mini-version of Leeds United, whose entire finances were based upon always qualifying for the Champions League?

Anyhow, with NI having a smaller population and (at least formerly!) a weaker economy, plus virtually no Government investment in football and 30 years of civil unrest etc, I have to say that insofar that it was a conscious policy decision*, the present approach by IL clubs of cutting their (financial) cloth to compete domestically on a part-time basis etc, was probably a sensible one.

If nothing else, we have managed to come through a period of serious long-term decline in standards/crowds/finances/facilities etc, with surprisingly few 'casualties' amongst our senior clubs (Omagh Town and Castlereagh Park being the major ones?)


* - OK, it probably wasn't! ;)

[Gather round]

Good analysis EG. I doubt there's much enthusiasm to move to a summer season like the LoI, so maybe the best we can hope for is an occasional battling draw.

Failing to take the UEFA/ Europa Cup seriously isn't confined to the bottom of the food chain, of course. Call the witnesses O'Neill and Redknapp...

[ifk101]

I agree that IL results in Europe have been embarrassing in recent years

Define "recent". :D


Either the clubs show a distinct lack of ambition, on the basis that since the European competitions were radically overhauled (3 competitions reduced to 2, with seeding and qualifying stages and prelim games played much earlier in the year etc), IL clubs no longer take Europe seriously. A clear indication of this is allowing players to go on holiday in July.

Ah yes - the removal of the glamour tie moan. Instead of trying to win a tie and earn their glamour tie, IL players would much prefer to lie on the beach.


Or they are simply being realistic. That is, with a basically part-time set-up and a Winter season, there is no way that clubs may sustain what is almost a 12 month season (i.e. regular season ends in May, new season starts in July, with a need for at least some pre-season training in between).

Well IL clubs have suffered hammerings year on year and haven't tried to improve their lot. Realistic isn't the word I'd used here but then again obviously the standard of the IL is very low.


Or has this attempt to "chase the (European) dream" merely added to the financial difficulties which a number of clubs are presently facing, almost like a mini-version of Leeds United, whose entire finances were based upon always qualifying for the Champions League?

It doesn't matter if it's 1992, 2009 or 2030, there'll always be a LOI club in financial trouble. And I'm sure if we scratch the surface a little, there're plenty of IL clubs in financial bother. Surely as a Glentoran fan you are well aware of this.


Anyhow, with NI having a smaller population and (at least formerly!) a weaker economy, plus virtually no Government investment in football and 30 years of civil unrest etc, I have to say that insofar that it was a conscious policy decision*, the present approach by IL clubs of cutting their (financial) cloth to compete domestically on a part-time basis etc, was probably a sensible one.

If nothing else, we have managed to come through a period of serious long-term decline in standards/crowds/finances/facilities etc, with surprisingly few 'casualties' amongst our senior clubs (Omagh Town and Castlereagh Park being the major ones?)

All irrelevant of course.

If the IL wanted to improve its results and performance in Europe, but doesn't want to go the summer season route, why not introduce a compromise solution similar to what the Danish and Austrian leagues do - ie a Winter break with a shortened Summer break? IL clubs don't need to go full-time to improve - they just need to get their players' arses off the beach/ out of the pub.

[EalingGreen]

Originally Posted by EalingGreen:
"I agree that IL results in Europe have been embarrassing in recent years"

Define "recent". :D

I'd say they have been "embarrassing" for a good 10 years, and "very poor" for 10 years before that. However, IL clubs have been competing in Europe for nearly 50 years now, and for the early part of that time, performances and results were reasonably good, better eg than those of comparable Leagues such as the LOI.
I'd say the decline of IL clubs in Europe followed the decline in IL standards generally (i.e. 25-30 years ago), and was exacerbated by the changes to the competition formats etc instigated by UEFA in more recent years.



Ah yes - the removal of the glamour tie moan. Instead of trying to win a tie and earn their glamour tie, IL players would much prefer to lie on the beach.

Unrealistic. The IL season ends in May, with the most meaningful games towards the end of the season (obviously). The European season starts in early July. The vast majority of IL players are part-timers, with family and f-t career inevitably a greater priority.
When are they and their family going to take their main holiday of the year - bearing in mind school holidays, plus the "Twelfth Fortnight" when many employers in NI traditionally scale down their operation (or even close entirely)?
Remember, to prepare seriously for European games at the start of July would mean playing/training throughout June, thereby leaving NO time for an off-season break.
Quite frankly, for IL clubs to hope to compete in Europe would require 3 things:
1. A radical restructuring of their domestic League;
2. A move to Summer football;
3. (Likely) A move to f-t status for the leading clubs.
And even if the first two were possible/desirable, the third could not be sustained, given their present circumstances (imo).
Therefore, they would risk "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" to even try, I'd say.



Well IL clubs have suffered hammerings year on year and haven't tried to improve their lot. Realistic isn't the word I'd used here but then again obviously the standard of the IL is very low.The IL is a very low standard - no-one is denying that. This is the result of a decline which has occurred over two to three decades (at least). Of course, some of the reasons behind that decline are/should have been avoidable (eg v.poor leadership and administration etc), but many more are/were not (eg the rise of the EPL and Sky TV etc, 30 years of domestic conflict).
In any case, if that decline is going to be halted, then reversed, then the IL needs to "walk before it can run".
There are already some small signs for hope eg stadium improvements, a small increase in crowds this season, better organisation by the IFA etc. Plus, of course, the further we move away from "The Troubles", the greater the grounds for optimism.
But if you imagine that the IL is now ready to address the European challenge, then it is you who is being utterly unrealistic, not me.
Of course, if we were still having debate in another 10-15 years, then I'd be v.disappointed. But at the moment, I'm just glad that the IL and its senior clubs have been able to survive this last 25 years in some sort of recognisable shape.



It doesn't matter if it's 1992, 2009 or 2030, there'll always be a LOI club in financial trouble.Fine. It's not for me to defend, condone or condemn such a situation. I am concerned with the situation of the League in which my club plays.



And I'm sure if we scratch the surface a little, there're plenty of IL clubs in financial bother. Surely as a Glentoran fan you are well aware of this.

Indeed.
But imo, it is precisely because plenty of our clubs are in financial difficulties that it is imperative that we do not get "ahead of ourselves". For had we done so, I've no doubt that many even of our leading clubs would by now be extinct. And extinction is forever (unless you're a fan of Cork football, it would seem! ;)).
Remember (and this is not "special pleading"), with a population of under 2 million, a weak economy, volatile politics, a strong local GAA, little or no Government support and the counter-attractions of the EPL and SPL etc etc. football in NI has been existing much "closer to the edge", with correspondingly far less margin for error, than eg their counterparts South of the border.




All irrelevant of course.
What? Because you say so? I've never claimed that there is nothing which could be done to improve the lot of IL football - there clearly is plenty.
But neither do I believe in pretending serious problems don't exist, either. We all have to live in the real world and "cut our cloth" accordingly.



[B]If the IL wanted to improve its results and performance in Europe, but doesn't want to go the summer season route, why not introduce a compromise solution similar to what the Danish and Austrian leagues do - ie a Winter break with a shortened Summer break? IL clubs don't need to go full-time to improve - they just need to get their players' arses off the beach/ out of the pub.I daresay IL clubs would like to improve their results in Europe. It's just that considering everything else which needs to be done, they don't see it as a major priority.
As someone who was first attracted to IL football by an outstanding performance by the Glens against the mighty Juventus in the European Cup in 1977, I would love to see a return to those days.
But I'd like to see our "bread and butter" issues sorted before we start thinking of a nice "cake" (with icing and a cherry on top)!

[ifk101]

Remember, to prepare seriously for European games at the start of July would mean playing/training throughout June, thereby leaving NO time for an off-season break.
Quite frankly, for IL clubs to hope to compete in Europe would require 3 things:
1. A radical restructuring of their domestic League;
2. A move to Summer football;
3. (Likely) A move to f-t status for the leading clubs.
And even if the first two were possible/desirable, the third could not be sustained, given their present circumstances (imo).
Therefore, they would risk "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" to even try, I'd say.

It depends on how you define "compete". If we're talking competitive if the first round of European competition - nothing revolutionary needs to take place. It's simply a case of time management.


Fine. It's not for me to defend, condone or condemn such a situation. I am concerned with the situation of the League in which my club plays.

And then the question follows why did you bring it up in the first place? :rolleyes:



[Btw, the loss of the major club from our 2nd city, for whatever reasons, was a major blow to domestic football in NI. Or do you not think the LOI would notice if, hypothetically of course, Derry City were to return to the IL?]

Yes of course the LOI would notice the loss of a club like Derry. They are an integral and welcomed ;) club in the league.


What? Because you say so?

What you wrote was off-topic and irrelevant to this thread imo.


As someone who was first attracted to IL football by an outstanding performance by the Glens against the mighty Juventus in the European Cup in 1977, I would love to see a return to those days.

The "mighty Juventus". :D I never heard of Juventus before but your use of the adjective mighty aroused my curiousity to the extent that I googled their name. And indeed they are mighty (in comparison to Glentoran).

[EalingGreen]

It depends on how you define "compete". If we're talking competitive if the first round of European competition - nothing revolutionary needs to take place. It's simply a case of time management.

By "competitive", I mean win some, lose some, with no great hammerings along the way.
On which point, I do not see it as a priority of IL clubs significantly to re-organise their whole set-up, with the subsequent increased financial risk etc which may follow, simply in order to see half of the qualifying teams make it through to the 2nd round in Europe, at which point most will likely go out anyhow.




And then the question follows why did you bring it up in the first place? :rolleyes:

If you read back through the thread properly, you will see that I am actually neutral on the topic of "chasing the European dream" generally, as evidenced by my acknowledgement of Derry City's success, alongside my citing of Leeds Utd's failure.
Therefore, whilst LOI clubs must do what they think best, I don't think it appropriate or sensible for IL clubs to follow them at this point.

You know, you seem to approach this topic almost as a "them and us" points-scoring exercise between the LOI and IL. I can't see why, since even when drawing parallels between the two leagues, I have at all times tried to be objective.


What you wrote was off-topic and irrelevant to this thread imo.

Once again, you claim it to be "irrelevant", but without explaining why. For clubs in any minor League to "up their game" and make a credible and sustained challenge at a higher level such as Europe, this will inevitably require significant changes to be made. And for the IL, those changes would inevitably carry an increased risk with them.
Which might normally be fair enough, except that due to the particular, often unique, circumstances in which the IL finds itself, I consider that we have less margin for error than (ostensibly) comparable Leagues, therefore the risk-reward ratio is heavily against us.
But even if I'm wrong about that, you cannot make such an assessment without taking into considerations all the factors which define your circumstances. Which is why I feel what I posted is entirely relevant; but if I'm wrong about that, I am open to correction by reasoned and logical argument.


The "mighty Juventus". :D I never heard of Juventus before but your use of the adjective mighty aroused my curiousity to the extent that I googled their name. And indeed they are mighty (in comparison to Glentoran).It was just a turn of phrase, of no great significance on my part, therefore if you wish to use it as an opportunity to share your great wit with us, knock yourself out. :rolleyes:
That said, the game I referred to was during a period when Juve had to actually win Serie A in order to get into the European Cup, as opposed to merely finishing in the top four to qualify for the (so-called) "Champions League".
Which change perhaps partly explains why, despite their being Italy's most successful team generally, they have failed to win any* European trophy since 1996.


* - I don't actually count the late, unlamented Intertoto Cup they won 10 years ago, btw.

[ifk101]

..... significantly to re-organise their whole set-up, with the subsequent increased financial risk etc which may follow, simply in order to see half of the qualifying teams make it through to the 2nd round in Europe, at which point most will likely go out anyhow.

Like I said it comes down to time management. Distillery had 5 lads on holiday for their game. Does it really necessitate significant re-organisation and subsequent increased financial risk to field your best team for these games?


If you read back through the thread properly, you will see that I am actually neutral on the topic of "chasing the European dream" generally, as evidenced by my acknowledgement of Derry City's success, alongside my citing of Leeds Utd's failure.
Therefore, whilst LOI clubs must do what they think best, I don't think it appropriate or sensible for IL clubs to follow them at this point.

You know, you seem to approach this topic almost as a "them and us" points-scoring exercise between the LOI and IL. I can't see why, since even when drawing parallels between the two leagues, I have at all times tried to be objective.

I really don't know what you are japping on about here. If you read my posts carefully you'll see that what I'm saying is that a bit of time management would help IL clubs immensely when it comes to European matches. The IL doesn't have to follow the summer season route taken by the LOI. Btw there were under factors behind the move the LOI move to a summer season - it wasn't all to do with "chasing the European dream".


Once again, you claim it to be "irrelevant", but without explaining why. For clubs in any minor League to "up their game" and make a credible and sustained challenge at a higher level such as Europe, this will inevitably require significant changes to be made. And for the IL, those changes would inevitably carry an increased risk with them.
Which might normally be fair enough, except that due to the particular, often unique, circumstances in which the IL finds itself, I consider that we have less margin for error than (ostensibly) comparable Leagues, therefore the risk-reward ratio is heavily against us.
But even if I'm wrong about that, you cannot make such an assessment without taking into considerations all the factors which define your circumstances. Which is why I feel what I posted is entirely relevant; but if I'm wrong about that, I am open to correction by reasoned and logical argument.

Again - it's all about time management. IL clubs are not fielding their strongest sides in these games. Does it really require significant and fundamental changes to field your strongest side for these games? How is it relevant to quote population, the economic climate, "the troubles", government investment, the financial state of LOI clubs, the low number of IL clubs going bust in the said topic of discussion - the embarrassing results of IL clubs and the clear disinterest the majority of IL clubs have for European competition?

Yeez do you really need to make a mountain out of a molehill (everytime)? Most of these European games are once-offs for the majority of IL clubs (Glentoran and Linfield are the exception). Is it that hard for clubs to field their strongest sides and have a go in these games?

Btw I'm sure if they drew Juventus, none of the Distillery players would have been on holiday - (even taking into account school holidays, and the "Twelfth Fortnight").

[EalingGreen]

Like I said it comes down to time management. Distillery had 5 lads on holiday for their game. Does it really necessitate significant re-organisation and subsequent increased financial risk to field your best team for these games?



I really don't know what you are japping on about here. If you read my posts carefully you'll see that what I'm saying is that a bit of time management would help IL clubs immensely when it comes to European matches. The



Again - it's all about time management. IL clubs are not fielding their strongest sides in these games. Does it really require significant and fundamental changes to field your strongest side for these games?

So you're whole argument really just boils down to "time management", then?

I'm afraid it is much more than that. For we already have a 10 month season (August to May). Therefore, by playing European games so early in July, by the time you have 2-3 weeks preparation (minimum) during June, you will actually be left with virtually a 12 month season.
These are part-time footballers you're talking about, whose main job, plus family come first.

Therefore, there are only three possible ways to "time manage" this situation:
A. Give the players time off during the regular domestic season; or
B. Re-arrange the whole domestic season significantly; or
C. Go full-time.

As regards the first, there is no way any club would risk weakening/disrupting its team during the regular season, for the sake of two, maybe four, European games. Remember, even had eg Linfield fielded their 1st choice XI against Randers, the chances are they would still not have gone through, since a Danish team in mid-season is always likely to be stronger than an IL team just starting its season.

As regards the middle option, again I do not think that a couple (or four) of European games, for one or two IL clubs, is worth re-arranging the whole set-up for.

And as regards the last, when Linfield fans complained last season eg about Spike Ferguson being away on his family holiday, I pointed out that if they want 1st call on him (i.e. over that of his employer), then they would need to pay him comparable wages, including those of his (teacher?) wife. They had no answer to that, funnily enough.
Quite simply, there is no way IL clubs could go mostly/fully full-time in the present climate.


How is it relevant to quote population, the economic climate, "the troubles", government investment, the financial state of LOI clubs, the low number of IL clubs going bust in the said topic of discussion - the embarrassing results of IL clubs and the clear disinterest the majority of IL clubs have for European competition?

The reason I quoted those things was as an explanation of why the IL is currently so weak, and as a consequence, why they have much more important things to sort out before they can think of being competitive in Europe.
Yes, IL clubs' attitude to Europe is one of disinterest (actually "lack of interest"); but any realistic appraisal of their situation explains why - they lack the resources to mount a credible challenge.


Is it that hard for clubs to field their strongest sides and have a go in these games?
They could do, but as I have tried to argue, the knock-on effect would hurt them further down the line in their domestic season, which ultimately is much more important to their existence. Or do you consider it crucial eg to Distillery that they should merely lose 2-1* at home to a Georgian side, rather than 5-1

* - Remember, by way of comparison, 2-1 was the score by which Sligo Rovers lost at home to an Albanian team the same night...



Btw I'm sure if they drew Juventus, none of the Distillery players would have been on holiday - (even taking into account school holidays, and the "Twelfth Fortnight").That is my whole point. :rolleyes:
For under the present set-up, there is no way Distillery could ever hope to meet a club of the stature of Juventus in a European tie on 2nd July.
That is, an IL club would need to get through maybe three two-legged preliminary ties before meeting the team which had won a major League like Serie A.
For when the Glens played Juve in 1977, it was in a 2nd round tie in October, by which time the IL season was well under way, and the Glens had already "warmed up" by beating Valur of Iceland in the 1st Round (in September?).

[ifk101]

So you're whole argument really just boils down to "time management", then?

I'm afraid it is much more than that. For we already have a 10 month season (August to May). Therefore, by playing European games so early in July, by the time you have 2-3 weeks preparation (minimum) during June, you will actually be left with virtually a 12 month season.
These are part-time footballers you're talking about, whose main job, plus family come first.

Therefore, there are only three possible ways to "time manage" this situation:
A. Give the players time off during the regular domestic season; or
B. Re-arrange the whole domestic season significantly; or
C. Go full-time.

As regards the first, there is no way any club would risk weakening/disrupting its team during the regular season, for the sake of two, maybe four, European games. Remember, even had eg Linfield fielded their 1st choice XI against Randers, the chances are they would still not have gone through, since a Danish team in mid-season is always likely to be stronger than an IL team just starting its season.

As regards the middle option, again I do not think that a couple (or four) of European games, for one or two IL clubs, is worth re-arranging the whole set-up for.

And as regards the last, when Linfield fans complained last season eg about Spike Ferguson being away on his family holiday, I pointed out that if they want 1st call on him (i.e. over that of his employer), then they would need to pay him comparable wages, including those of his (teacher?) wife. They had no answer to that, funnily enough.
Quite simply, there is no way IL clubs could go mostly/fully full-time in the present climate.

Here's a simple and sensible solution.

Have a Winter break and start the season a month earlier in the Summer. This helps avoid waterlogged postponements in the Winter and allows teams to be better prepared in the Summer for the European matches. The Danish team (Randers) are in their off-season btw.


The reason I quoted those things was as an explanation of why the IL is currently so weak, and as a consequence, why they have much more important things to sort out before they can think of being competitive in Europe.
Yes, IL clubs' attitude to Europe is one of disinterest (actually "lack of interest"); but any realistic appraisal of their situation explains why - they lack the resources to mount a credible challenge.

They could do, but as I have tried to argue, the knock-on effect would hurt them further down the line in their domestic season, which ultimately is much more important to their existence.

Read my simple and sensible solution above :D


Or do you consider it crucial eg to Distillery that they should merely lose 2-1* at home to a Georgian side, rather than 5-1

* - Remember, by way of comparison, 2-1 was the score by which Sligo Rovers lost at home to an Albanian team the same night...

Considering that Sligo still have a chance of progressing in their tie, I'd have to answer yes.


That is my whole point. :rolleyes:

And misses my point which was that if Juventus was the team facing Distillery in the first round rather than Zestafoni, I'm sure Distillery would have been able to field their strongest side. In other words, I don't think the players (event junkies that they are :D) would have any problem postponing/ missing their holidays for the mighty Juventus.

[EalingGreen]

Here's a simple and sensible solution.

Have a Winter break and start the season a month earlier in the Summer. This helps avoid waterlogged postponements in the Winter and allows teams to be better prepared in the Summer for the European matches. The Danish team (Randers) are in their off-season btw.Simple - yes, sensible - ostensibly, but feasible? I don't think so, for two reasons.

First, when do you actually have your one month midwinter break? Christmas and New Year are out, since that is when crowds are traditionally high. And if you opt for January to have your break, what happens if you get real bad weather in February - hardly unknown in NI! - leading to postponed matches? (Obviously vice versa applies also)
Either way, you have a fixture backlog to recover in March and April, when pitches are in their worst condition of the year and the weather can still be poor.

Second, players still have to take their main holiday of the year sometime. Are you really going to tell a part-timer who is married and with kids (or married and with kids and grandkids, like Glenn Ferguson!), that they cannot take a fortnight off during the Summer, when the schools are out and businesses closed down etc, but instead must take the kids out of school in February or March?

What you are overlooking is that the old European format of 3 Cups with straight knockouts, starting in September and ending in May, has now been replaced by 2 "mini-Leagues" (i.e. far more matches), which means the European season now has to start at the beginning of July, if it is still going to finish in May.

Therefore, the only realistic way that IL clubs may accommodate this imposition is either by going full-time (i.e. so they may have 1st call over their players and their holidays etc); or, by moving to a Summer season.


Considering that Sligo still have a chance of progressing in their tie, I'd have to answer yes.
Of course Distillery would prefer to still be in with a chance in the 2nd leg, like Sligo. But that is not what I asked, which was whether progressing to the next round (or even a chance of doing so) was crucial to Distillery's season. (Answer: No)


And misses my point which was that if Juventus was the team facing Distillery in the first round rather than Zestafoni, I'm sure Distillery would have been able to field their strongest side. In other words, I don't think the players (event junkies that they are :D) would have any problem postponing/ missing their holidays for the mighty Juventus.I'm sorry, but to contest that the Distillery players would have cancelled their holidays had they been playing Juve etc, is spectacularly missing the point. :rolleyes:

For due to the Seeding element, there is no way that someone like Juve could ever be playing Distillery or Sligo etc in the 1st Qualifying Round of the Europa League in July.
The big clubs don't actually come into the competition until later Rounds, and if they are from a major League, they don't even have to enter the Europa League at all - they get into the (so-called) Champions League, (i.e. even if they finished 3rd or 4th in Italy, Germany, Spain or England etc).

Or to put it another way, how many "big" clubs can you spot in the following?
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/index.html
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/format/newsid=841704.html

[Cymro]

....... do you consider it crucial eg to Distillery that they should merely lose 2-1* at home to a Georgian side, rather than 5-1

* - Remember, by way of comparison, 2-1 was the score by which Sligo Rovers lost at home to an Albanian team the same night...

You could also use by comparison the results the Welsh teams got that night (1-0 win away and 2-1 defeat away), both of which give said sides a good chance of progress. Surely the Irish league must think itself capable of at least matching the Welsh Premier, yet it is not even doing that at present.

As I said before, if a more professional attitude were adopted then progress would probably follow, if not initially then eventually. And I don't know about you, but a tie against a side like Basel, Rapid Vienna, Pacos Ferreira, Gent, Steaua Bucharest, or NAC Breda (just some of the teams in the second round draw) is worth fielding a full squad for. Saying 'we can't get through and anyway we're playing a small team so why bother' is a bad attitude.

[EalingGreen]

You could also use by comparison the results the Welsh teams got that night (1-0 win away and 2-1 defeat away), both of which give said sides a good chance of progress. Surely the Irish league must think itself capable of at least matching the Welsh Premier, yet it is not even doing that at present.

Fair point - both good results (though I can't help thinking that Llanelli hit Motherwell at just the best time).



As I said before, if a more professional attitude were adopted then progress would probably follow, if not initially then eventually. And I don't know about you, but a tie against a side like Basel, Rapid Vienna, Pacos Ferreira, Gent, Steaua Bucharest, or NAC Breda (just some of the teams in the second round draw) is worth fielding a full squad for. Saying 'we can't get through and anyway we're playing a small team so why bother' is a bad attitude.Were last week's results a reflection of Welsh clubs making a conscious effort to "up their game" for Europe? If so, then fair play to them.
However, I don't think we can quite overlook other recent results where Welsh clubs were also embarrassed e.g. Bangor losing 10-1 (aggregate) to Midtylland, or Carmarthen 3-14 (agg) to Brann.

There may also be mitigating circumstances to explain individual IL results.
For just as Motherwell had just lost Mark McGhee, Distillery also lost their highly successful manager of 15 years(?) during close season (thanks to a Boardroom coup), which also caused a number of their leading players to walk out - all this just before their European tie.
As for Linfield, for some reason, they are traditionally crap in Europe (though they seem to rate the Setanta Cup).
By contrast, Glentoran have generally done OK in Europe in recent seasons.

Don't get me wrong, I cringe to see those IL results as much as anyone (except where it's Linfield ;)), and would love to see them taking it more seriously and doing better. However, I can also see why it is not at the top of their list of priorities, and why it would take more than just a bit of pre-match motivation etc, for IL teams to sustain a credible and rewarding challenge in Europe.

[Cymro]

In fairness Bangor and Carmarthen got horrible draws those years, although I admit they were terrible results. But they aren't happening on a consistent basis these days. Carmarthen played a Danish side I think it was the year before that (the year they beat Longford anyway) and the scoreline was respectable (2-0 defeat in each leg). But with Irish sides it was the same last year, and the year before that. And let's be honest, Zestafoni aren't one of the strongest sides in the first qualifying round. Linfield's result was half exusable because it was away against a strong Randers side (and apparently Linfield had held them for 60 minutes or so) but Lisburn losing 5-1 at home to a team like Zestafoni is embarrasing.

As for the Welsh results, yes, I do think that a more serious approach to Europe has paid dividends. If you look back to the turn of the century, only Barry Town ever achieved any decent results in Europe, everyone else got hammered consistently whereas these days even if we don't go through the results are much closer. Partly the improvement can be put down to less naivety on the part of our teams these days but a lot of it also has to be said for a better attitude.

[Dalymountrower]

In fairness Bangor and Carmarthen got horrible draws those years, although I admit they were terrible results. But they aren't happening on a consistent basis these days. Carmarthen played a Danish side I think it was the year before that (the year they beat Longford anyway) and the scoreline was respectable (2-0 defeat in each leg). But with Irish sides it was the same last year, and the year before that. And let's be honest, Zestafoni aren't one of the strongest sides in the first qualifying round. Linfield's result was half exusable because it was away against a strong Randers side (and apparently Linfield had held them for 60 minutes or so) but Lisburn losing 5-1 at home to a team like Zestafoni is embarrasing.

As for the Welsh results, yes, I do think that a more serious approach to Europe has paid dividends. If you look back to the turn of the century, only Barry Town ever achieved any decent results in Europe, everyone else got hammered consistently whereas these days even if we don't go through the results are much closer. Partly the improvement can be put down to less naivety on the part of our teams these days but a lot of it also has to be said for a better attitude.

Merthyr Tydfil?

[Cymro]

I was talking specifically about the Welsh Premier League. Merthyr's result against Atalanta was back in the 70s, well before the league was even suggested.

[Dodge]

For the record Distillery's 11-1 defeat came at the hands of the lowest possibled seeded team they could've faced

[AnnaghRed]

God thats bad, but it'll hardly impact much on their attendances this season :rolleyes:

Maybe if we switch to summer football and bankrupt half our clubs, we could feel the pride of going out in the same round against a team from Albania?

[Dodge]

Well you've ready got the bankrupt bit...

[ifk101]

God thats bad, but it'll hardly impact much on their attendances this season :rolleyes:

You can always rely on family and friends to turn up.


For the record Distillery's 11-1 defeat came at the hands of the lowest possibled seeded team they could've faced

It was also the largest aggregate defeat in the first round this year but it'll hardly impact much on their attendances this season.

[Steve Bruce]

Well you've ready got the bankrupt bit...

None of our clubs are in any immediate danger. Glentoran are really the only club that are in dire straights financially.

But this is not a point scoring thing. The thing that IL clubs have to get used to is, we are the worst (or atleast among them) in Europe and we're not going to improve much.

We get little funding, little tv exposure & little in the way of attendances. IL football is at this level because it's the level we are and whilst I do believe we should always strive to better ourselves, we have to do it in a responsible way and not follow the same road as the LOI. This isn't me point scoring as the LOI have a lot of good things going for it, but I think Shelbourne going as far as they did has been more trouble than it's worth as a lot of clubs have followed Shelbourne trying to chase a dream that is always going to be out of reach for any club on this island.

It would take a multi-millionaire who is willing to spending millions on getting the best players money can buy in this country and getting the luck of the draw right from 1st round to the last round of qualifying.

And that's just not going to happen.

The results this season have been shambolic for IL clubs. But it's something we have to accept. This is our level and unless something drastic changes, we will continue to sit at this level.

We however should not take any big risks in the hope of getting past a round or 2. We should just try and make our games more exciting to watch and make hte league a good league to watch even if the standard is low.

[pineapple stu]

Losing 11-1 to Georgian teams (who were 4-0 at half time each time, and presumably relaxed afterwards) is only your level because the players go on summer holidays each year.

Taking the competition seriously might only improve things to a 4-0 defeat against the same opposition, but it's definitely a non-drastic, non big-risk, change which can be implemented.

FWIW, UCD would be about the size of the smaller IL clubs, but because we took Europe seriously on both our times in it (calling all our players back early for pre-season training for the InterToto campaign in 2000; they were all looking forward to playing), we've gotten some good results. We've gone out first round each time, but at least we've enjoyed the experience, punched above our weight and can look back with pride on our achievements.

[EalingGreen]

None of our clubs are in any immediate danger. Glentoran are really the only club that are in dire straights financially.

But this is not a point scoring thing. The thing that IL clubs have to get used to is, we are the worst (or atleast among them) in Europe and we're not going to improve much.

We get little funding, little tv exposure & little in the way of attendances. IL football is at this level because it's the level we are and whilst I do believe we should always strive to better ourselves, we have to do it in a responsible way and not follow the same road as the LOI. This isn't me point scoring as the LOI have a lot of good things going for it, but I think Shelbourne going as far as they did has been more trouble than it's worth as a lot of clubs have followed Shelbourne trying to chase a dream that is always going to be out of reach for any club on this island.

It would take a multi-millionaire who is willing to spending millions on getting the best players money can buy in this country and getting the luck of the draw right from 1st round to the last round of qualifying.

And that's just not going to happen.

The results this season have been shambolic for IL clubs. But it's something we have to accept. This is our level and unless something drastic changes, we will continue to sit at this level.

We however should not take any big risks in the hope of getting past a round or 2. We should just try and make our games more exciting to watch and make hte league a good league to watch even if the standard is low.

Spot on in just about every respect, SB (imo), especially the last point.

P.S. Whilst the Glens do have a huge debt, in The Oval, they also have a (potentially) valuable site for redevelopment, as well as a reasonably wealthy Chairman (Aubry Ralph) who seems fairly committed to the club.

In which case, if/when the economy starts to pick up again; and/or the expansion of GB Belfast City Airport gets sorted; and/or the Government and IFA make progress over the Blanchflower Park Sports Centre & Stadium proposals; the Glens may be in a position to sell The Oval, clear their debts and become tenants at Blanchflower.

Of course, there are a huge number of "ifs and buts" in that scenario, any of which could further delay or even scupper any deal. But the good news is that unlike eg Ards or Bohs, we haven't (effectively) sold our ground before securing a replacement.

Further, with Ralph being a Property Developer, we've got to hope that he has the nous and integrity to put together a deal which is in the best interests of the club.

[EalingGreen]

Losing 11-1 to Georgian teams (who were 4-0 at half time each time, and presumably relaxed afterwards) is only your level because the players go on summer holidays each year.

Taking the competition seriously might only improve things to a 4-0 defeat against the same opposition, but it's definitely a non-drastic, non big-risk, change which can be implemented.

FWIW, UCD would be about the size of the smaller IL clubs, but because we took Europe seriously on both our times in it (calling all our players back early for pre-season training for the InterToto campaign in 2000; they were all looking forward to playing), we've gotten some good results. We've gone out first round each time, but at least we've enjoyed the experience, punched above our weight and can look back with pride on our achievements.

The IL season ended in May. Therefore, if IL clubs insist on players being available for European games in the first week of July, they will lack fitness if they go straight in.

And even if they come back early for pre-season preparation (i.e. in June), they will still lack match fitness.

Therefore, whilst they could be expected to be much more competitive than Distillery and Linfield were, they are still unlikely to progress - certainly not beyond the 2nd round. (For proof of that, you only need look at the Welsh clubs who, whilst performing creditably, still went out.)

And if you did try that, you would then have to give the players time off in August or September, since they are (after all) only part-timers. This would then screw up a team's domestic season.

Of course, the IL might consider moving to a summer season, with more full-time players. Then again, Sligo are in that position, and whilst they look to have done well in their two games, nonetheless they are in the exact same position as eg Distillery i.e. out of the competition in the 1st Round, after two defeats by mediocre opposition.

[pineapple stu]

When we were last in Europe, our season ended in May. We played the TotoToto, which started earlier than the UEFA. We played against a team featuring a couple of Bulgarian internationals (one of whom is still playing for Bulgaria) and drew both games.

The only difference I can see is that our players wanted to play in Europe, whereas yours don't.

(And with regards your point about not progressing beyond the second round - had Distillery won, they'd be welcoming Henrik Larsson for the next round. There's plenty of big teams and big names in the second round. Enough to make it worthwhile trying to get through every now and again).

[mypost]

And if you did try that, you would then have to give the players time off in August or September, since they are (after all) only part-timers. This would then screw up a team's domestic season.

Of course, the IL might consider moving to a summer season, with more full-time players. Then again, Sligo are in that position, and whilst they look to have done well in their two games, nonetheless they are in the exact same position as eg Distillery i.e. out of the competition in the 1st Round, after two defeats by mediocre opposition.

The LOI off-season barely lasts 6 weeks, before pre-season is underway. By February, you're into the friendlies. The teams have to play each other 4-6 times a season, and play 10-15 more games a year than their IL counterparts. They're not all full timers, and they have families too.

They still want to play in Europe. The IL lads see it as a mad pis-up, and have no ambition to either play in it, or get into the next round. The continous "beach" stories are both ludicrous and laughable. Playing Coruna in the CL 3rd round qualifiers is a goal for LOI clubs. Playing Coleraine in the snow is the height of ambition for IL clubs.

[pineapple stu]

Playing Coruna in the CL 3rd round qualifiers is a goal for LOI clubs.
Only if they want to go bankrupt as a near-direct result, though, which is the point EG's making.

But there's plenty of chances to play decent sides other than Coruna. such as Helsinborgs, who'll now travel to Lisburn's conquerors.

I also don't know how you figure LoI sides play 10-15 times more than IL sides. Our league season is 36 games in the Premier, theirs is 38. We both have the Setanta Cup. They have umpteen silly traditional cups which add numbers. I think the likes of Linfield play 50-60 times a season. Show me a LoI side playing 60-75 times a year?

[AnnaghRed]

It was also the largest aggregate defeat in the first round this year but it'll hardly impact much on their attendances this season.


Improving your co-efficient is obviously something that really matters to you dudes. Hope it all works out for you in the end.

[pineapple stu]

Where did he mention the coefficient?

[holidaysong]

Why don't fans of NI clubs get that better co-efficients mean better seedings in draws and therefore a better chance of getting further in the competition and getting more prize money and more 'big name' ties (hence more money)? :confused:

[mypost]

Only if they want to go bankrupt as a near-direct result, though, which is the point EG's making.

But there's plenty of chances to play decent sides other than Coruna.

You don't go bankrupt as a result of playing Coruna, it's moving games to Lansdowne Road in order to play Lille that screws you up.

2 years later, Derry got to the same stage of the competition and played PSG in their home ground. They haven't gone into freefall since.

Next year, our stadium will be fully compliant with European requirements. There's over 60 bulbs on each floodlight pylon, which can blind people with their strength if you glance at them in seconds. There'll be no need to move European games anywhere, and we'll be in good financial health.

A well-managed club doesn't go bust by playing big European games. But a club with no desire to break out of their comfort zone is a parochial obsessed club with no ambition imo.

[pineapple stu]

Shels only got to the stage of playing Coruna because they were going broke.

[Steve Bruce]

You don't go bankrupt as a result of playing Coruna, it's moving games to Lansdowne Road in order to play Lille that screws you up.

2 years later, Derry got to the same stage of the competition and played PSG in their home ground. They haven't gone into freefall since.

Next year, our stadium will be fully compliant with European requirements. There's over 60 bulbs on each floodlight pylon, which can blind people with their strength if you glance at them in seconds. There'll be no need to move European games anywhere, and we'll be in good financial health.

A well-managed club doesn't go bust by playing big European games. But a club with no desire to break out of their comfort zone is a parochial obsessed club with no ambition imo.

It's a bit easier to have ambition to go further, when you have a much better funded league with far bigger crowds who pay bigger ticket prices and the clubs don't get taxed on them either.

Northern Ireland is a FAR smaller country than the Republic and that is reflected in the attendances and standards between the leagues.

[pineapple stu]

But against that, none of our teams have rent from the national side...

[AnnaghRed]

Why don't fans of NI clubs get that better co-efficients mean better seedings in draws and therefore a better chance of getting further in the competition and getting more prize money and more 'big name' ties (hence more money)? :confused:

We do get it, its just that the better seedings, getting further in the competitions and earning more prize money, don't seem to have done the finances of recent LoI champions much good.

[mypost]

They would do good, if the clubs were managed properly. Which hasn't been the case with the champions for the last number of years. That's down to bad management and decisions by boards and directors. People that know what they're doing wouldn't allow their club to get into that state.

[Steve Bruce]

But against that, none of our teams have rent from the national side...

True, but then we are only reaping the benefits of that rent now. We went through years of barely covering costs and in some seasons costing us money. (everyone convenienantly forgets that) So it was a hinderence for long enough. Also the rent fluxuates(sp?) every season. 1 season we could get £100,000 the next £400,000. So we can hardly take the gamble of using a high budget because of NI income.

If no one turned up to the NI games, then Linfield would be hugely out of pocket as we pay for all the expenses of ground upkeep and match day expenses.

Until the league gets better funded like the LOI we will find it very hard to compete with the lower echelons of football.

[Gather round]

So what strength teams will Glentoran and Crusaders field next week? How many of the players will go straight to the beach at Eilat or Dubrovnik without stopping at Maccabi or Rabotnicki first?

Fluctuates, Steve. And fluctumacedonians and all...

[pineapple stu]

We do get it, its just that the better seedings, getting further in the competitions and earning more prize money, don't seem to have done the finances of recent LoI champions much good.
Sure why bother playing in the league then?

We made feck all from the Kyustendil games, but it was a great experience. And we've two great games to remember too. And got to see a couple of senior internationals in our humble home.

[AnnaghRed]

Sure why bother playing in the league then?

We made feck all from the Kyustendil games, but it was a great experience. And we've two great games to remember too. And got to see a couple of senior internationals in our humble home.

Couldnt you have organised a friendly and seen those players without having to traipse to Bulgaria?

The least UEFA could do is regionalise the earlier stages of their competions.

[pineapple stu]

Traipsing to Bulgaria was the part of the fun.

[Steve Bruce]

Traipsing to Bulgaria was the part of the fun.

We still get these fun trips without overhauling our league. Realistically NO irish league team or LOI will ever get past 2 rounds of Europe.

[pineapple stu]

We also get the fun of having matched the team though, and having seen two good games of ball.

And so what if no Irish League team will ever get past two rounds of Europe? If Distillery had gotten past one, they'd have been up against Henrik Larsson.

[Steve Bruce]

We also get the fun of having matched the team though, and having seen two good games of ball.

And so what if no Irish League team will ever get past two rounds of Europe? If Distillery had gotten past one, they'd have been up against Henrik Larsson.

The thing is though, apart from this year Linfield have been very competitive with our european counterparts.

Last year we got a 1-1 draw away to Dinamo Zagreb. Would the LOI teams have done better? I highly doubt it.

We also done well against Elfsborg, but because we are out of season we where always going to get put out, but none the less we where 5 inches away from going through in that game but Peter Thompson just missed what SHOULD have been a goal.

So although this season has been a disaster for IL teams in Europe, we have been competitive just not quite good enough to go through most times.

The LOI although do fare better than the IL, it still isn't anything earth shattering and it certainly isn't worth it for the IL to do a complete overhaul to get to the LOI level in Europe, which lets face it, isn't impressive at all.

[pineapple stu]

You keep talking about this overhaul the IL supposedly needs to stop getting beaten double figures. It doesn't need an overhaul. All it needs is your players to take the competition seriously. This was my point about how UCD, playing in a winter season, with average crowds of 500 or so, called our players back into pre-season training early - all our players were up for this - and put in an excellent, enjoyable performance against a decent Bulgarian side with a couple of senior internationals. All this without going broke, or radically overhauling our club or league. That's all.

[Steve Bruce]

You keep talking about this overhaul the IL supposedly needs to stop getting beaten double figures. It doesn't need an overhaul. All it needs is your players to take the competition seriously. This was my point about how UCD, playing in a winter season, with average crowds of 500 or so, called our players back into pre-season training early - all our players were up for this - and put in an excellent, enjoyable performance against a decent Bulgarian side with a couple of senior internationals. All this without going broke, or radically overhauling our club or league. That's all.

I dare say if Linfield where a very small club who doesn't qualify for Europe often, we would do the same thing.(I don't mean any disrespect) But we qualify every year, our players are part-time and it is a bit much to ask a part time player to play until the May, take 3/4 weeks off and start playing again EVERY YEAR.

Do you not see how this is unrealistic?

Also this double figures thing. Cliftonville got beat last season in the intertwobob against Copenhagen, a team that has drew with Manchester United in the CL, a team that has beaten Celtic in the CL and a team who regularly qualifies for the CL proper.

Distillery on the other hand have no excuses for their result and Linfield this season was beaten by a team who are better than us and our stupid mistakes.

But double figures is not the norm for IL clubs.

Linfield every season (near enough) always comes away with a respectable result even though it goes against us a lot more often than not. (although in the last 5/6 years Linfield and Glentoran have got past the 1st round)

So from Linfields point of view, whilst things are not ideal, we are not in the position to ask part-time players to foresake their family holidays to get knocked out of Europe in the 1st maybe 2nd round. Which is what would happen and happens every season North and South. (albeit the LOI have got past 2 rounds twice in recent history with Shelbourne & Derry City)