Irish League clubs in Europe?

[mypost]

We still get these fun trips without overhauling our league. Realistically NO irish league team or LOI will ever get past 2 rounds of Europe.

LOI clubs regularly get past 2 rounds of Europe. Some start from scratch and almost make the UEFA Cup group stages. It's led to a very high co-efficient ranking for it, which in turn allows them to be even more competitive. Playing in summer allows them to put up a very competitive European performance.

I reject outright, the "family holiday" argument. Most players don't have families, and if they do, then they can go on holidays at Christmas. The rest of the year, football is their job. And if they have to play in July, so be it.

[EalingGreen]

LOI clubs regularly get past 2 rounds of Europe. Some start from scratch and almost make the UEFA Cup group stages. It's led to a very high co-efficient ranking for it, which in turn allows them to be even more competitive. Playing in summer allows them to put up a very competitive European performance.

Unless I've miscounted, four teams (Pats, Derry, Cork and Shels) have done so out of 15 in the last 5 seasons.
And whilst that is highly commendable, it is hardly "regular". More to the point, with the financial problems presently facing many LOI clubs, I suspect they will be v.pushed to maintain it.
I'm sure you're right about Summer football having helped the LOI in this respect, but there are many other considerations for the IL than just Europe, so it may not be desirable for us.


I reject outright, the "family holiday" argument. Most players don't have families, and if they do, then they can go on holidays at Christmas.Some are family men, but even those who aren't need a break, too.
Now there may be an argument for slimming down the domestic season in NI, but as it stands, the season ends in May, before restarting in August.
Therefore, by the time you allow for a few weeks essential pre-season training, the only time for a break is end June/early July.
As for a holiday at Christmas - that is silly, since the IL plays games then, often to the biggest crowds of the season.


The rest of the year, football is their job.
WRONG! These are part-timers - their career, their family, their mortgage, their working life for the next 30-40 years etc are to be found away from football.
Of course, you may say that players who do not put football first lack ambition etc. However, I think you are overlooking one major point i.e. those who are prepared to put football before everything else are usually doing so in England or Scotland.
If, for whatever reason, a player stays in the IL, it is on a part-time basis, which means that football comes second to their "main" life.
Sad but inevitable, given the IL's present circumstances (imo).

[Schumi]

Unless I've miscounted, four teams (Pats, Derry, Cork and Shels) have done so out of 15 in the last 5 seasons.
And whilst that is highly commendable, it is hardly "regular". More to the point, with the financial problems presently facing many LOI clubs, I suspect they will be v.pushed to maintain it.Four times in five seasons sounds regular enough to me. I agree that it'll happen less regularly over the next few years.

[pineapple stu]

But again, the progressing through two rounds is a bit of a false target. How many clubs have progressed through one round? That's the starting point.

[ifk101]

Anyways two more Irish League teams in European action this week. Crusaders will play Rabotnicki from Macedonia and Glentoran will play Maccabi Haifa.

I think Crusaders might be able to get something from their "home" game but ultimately Rabotnicki will progress. Glentoran will be looking to keep the score down.

[Steve Bruce]

http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Skonto-defeat-would-signal-disaster.5456330.jp

Just one of many reasons I am glad Irish league clubs don't take European football as seriously as our southern counterparts.

We may not get the results, but in comparison our football clubs are financially sound (that is not saying we haven't got financial problems up here, but in comparison it's not as near severe as in the LOI)

The LOI are now DEPENDANT on going through a round or two in europe. To me thats a sorry state of affairs.

I'll gladly watch my mediocre Linfield side in a mediocre league and be around for the rest of my life and beyond, rather than watching a better Linfield side in a better league but always looking over my shoulder wondering when the next few £'s are coming from.

[ifk101]

http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Skonto-defeat-would-signal-disaster.5456330.jp

Just one of many reasons I am glad Irish league clubs don't take European football as seriously as our southern counterparts.

We may not get the results, but in comparison our football clubs are financially sound (that is not saying we haven't got financial problems up here, but in comparison it's not as near severe as in the LOI)

The LOI are now DEPENDANT on going through a round or two in europe. To me thats a sorry state of affairs.

I'll gladly watch my mediocre Linfield side in a mediocre league and be around for the rest of my life and beyond, rather than watching a better Linfield side in a better league but always looking over my shoulder wondering when the next few £'s are coming from.

TBH if an amateur LOI club like Wexford Youths were playing in Europe, I'd expect them to give Zestafoni a much better game than what Lisburn did. You're assuming that IL clubs need to go full-time to make progress. I think it's a lot simplier than that. All you need to do is to start fielding sides that are physically match fit. Yes IL sides won't be playing Champions League football within the next 50 years but surely there is an onus on the clubs to make an attempt to compete. I don't see why there is such a reluctance to change.

As for the financial state of the top LOI clubs; there were sources of money available to clubs in the past that are no longer there. If these clubs wish to continue as full-time teams they need to maximise their takings from their European ties. The article you highlight just repeats what everyone is already aware of. And judging by this thread, IL clubs are now DEPENDENT on their Christmas fixture list. To me that's a sorry state of affairs.

[Dodge]

I'll gladly watch my mediocre Linfield side in a mediocre league and be around for the rest of my life and beyond, rather than watching a better Linfield side in a better league but always looking over my shoulder wondering when the next few £'s are coming from.

Finally you admit the LOI is a better league

[citybone]

But again, the progressing through two rounds is a bit of a false target. How many clubs have progressed through one round? That's the starting point.

Over the past 5 years most loi clubs have progressed one round bar sligo this year cork city last year, st pats 2 years ago, derry 2 years ago thats it so 3 clubs a year in europe for 5 years with a fail rate in the first round of 4/15 not bad. getting through the 2nd round is very difficult alright

[pineapple stu]

Thanks; was too lazy to do that myself. :p

[David]

Linfield were back in training barely a month after their last league game and as far as I am aware none of our players were unavailable due to being on holiday. We (yet again) met a team that are a class act and one that I would say would beat any LOI team.

[EalingGreen]

And judging by this thread, IL clubs are now DEPENDENT on their Christmas fixture list. To me that's a sorry state of affairs.So are we not even going to qualify for Christmas now? :eek:

Jeez, our Co-Efficient must be even worse than I'd thought...;)

[mypost]

I'm sure you're right about Summer football having helped the LOI in this respect, but there are many other considerations for the IL than just Europe, so it may not be desirable for us.

Such as?

The way I see that league is as a wasteland, where Linfield routinely walk the championship, the crowds are crap, their European performances and attitude is crap, the players treat the game as a hobby rather than a profession, and the clubs have no ambition. The only thing going for it, is that they play on Saturdays.


Some are family men, but even those who aren't need a break, too.
As for a holiday at Christmas - that is silly, since the IL plays games then, often to the biggest crowds of the season.

The Christmas break would apply in the case of summer football. We all need a break, but people in other jobs are lucky to get a 2 week break once a year, why should footballers get more? It's a job, not a pastime.

The LOI is full of part-time players who have to get on with playing summer football. It's much better to be playing in the sun in July than the snow and storms in January.

[De Town]

The way I see that league is as a wasteland, where Linfield routinely walk the championship

Yeah, like last season..:rolleyes:

[Steve Bruce]

Finally you admit the LOI is a better league

Great input, took you a while.

I think if you had of opened your eyes you would see that I have admitted that quite a number of times.:rolleyes:

[Steve Bruce]

TBH if an amateur LOI club like Wexford Youths were playing in Europe, I'd expect them to give Zestafoni a much better game than what Lisburn did. You're assuming that IL clubs need to go full-time to make progress. I think it's a lot simplier than that. All you need to do is to start fielding sides that are physically match fit. Yes IL sides won't be playing Champions League football within the next 50 years but surely there is an onus on the clubs to make an attempt to compete. I don't see why there is such a reluctance to change.

As for the financial state of the top LOI clubs; there were sources of money available to clubs in the past that are no longer there. If these clubs wish to continue as full-time teams they need to maximise their takings from their European ties. The article you highlight just repeats what everyone is already aware of. And judging by this thread, IL clubs are now DEPENDENT on their Christmas fixture list. To me that's a sorry state of affairs.

Who said anything about being dependent on the Christmas fixture list? As far as I can see, it was only stated that this is normally the time that the league gets it's highest attendances.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Surely the woeful IL performances again emphasise the need for an AIL to play against 'better' teams more consistently, as in the might of the LOI who are currently better!

Still look forward to the usual response from the usual suspects why they're 'better off' festering in isolation....

[Dodge]

Great input, took you a while.

I think if you had of opened your eyes you would see that I have admitted that quite a number of times.:rolleyes:

Relax Steve (what is it with northerners with steve in their handle?)

I was joking...

[jinxy lilywhite]

Would a slight change in the calendar for IL clubs not improve or make them more competitive in Europe. If they changeed their season from Aug to May to a season beginning in the end of June/ beginning of july which played up until end of march to beginning of April, like what we had here before the switch to summer football.

I don't think performances in Europe should the be all and end all for clubs. some teams here did have a pipe dream of playing in cl group stages or europa league but this will never happen because while we may be close on the pitch (ie one stage away from the groups) but off the pitch our clubs are so far behind that it is breaking them or will break them.

[EalingGreen]

Surely the woeful IL performancesNot quite all "woeful":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/8150896.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/8151432.stm


the need for an AIL to play against 'better' teams more consistently, as in the might of the LOI who are currently better!
Actually, the willingness of IL clubs to contest the Setanta Cup illustrates that they are not averse to an AIL in principle.
The problem is that no-one (on either side of the border) has yet come with a remotely workable proposal for such a League (unless, that is, you consider "Platinum T Barnum's" last effort to have been "workable"...:eek:)




Still look forward to the usual response from the usual suspects why they're 'better off' festering in isolation....With the present disparity in standard between the two Leagues, if an AIL were implemented tomorrow, all but 3 or 4 NI sides would likely struggle badly.
Therefore, the IL needs to put its own house in better order before it could take on such a challenge.
(Or alternatively, perhaps we could wait for half the top LOI sides to implode financially, then we could "cherry pick" who we would like to join us in an AIL from those who survived...;) )

[EalingGreen]

Would a slight change in the calendar for IL clubs not improve or make them more competitive in Europe. If they changeed their season from Aug to May to a season beginning in the end of June/ beginning of july which played up until end of march to beginning of April, like what we had here before the switch to summer football.

Possibly, but there is a big problem with doing so. In NI, the Summer holiday season is much more entrenched around the "Twelfth Fortnight" than (I suspect) it is in ROI i.e. businesses shut down, the schools break up earlier etc.
And this is usually exacerbated by the "Marching Season", which at best competes with other activities for peoples' leisure time, and at worst causes riot and unrest etc.
Moreover, the tensions which surround the Marching Season etc causes many people who are not involved to clear off from NI entirely in July, for their annual holiday.
I personally am not averse in principle to change, but neither would I underestimate the problems of staging eg a midweek game between Linfield and Cliftonville at Solitude, a day or two after this sort of carry-on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8148955.stm



I don't think performances in Europe should the be all and end all for clubs. some teams here did have a pipe dream of playing in cl group stages or europa league but this will never happen because while we may be close on the pitch (ie one stage away from the groups) but off the pitch our clubs are so far behind that it is breaking them or will break them.It gives me no pleasure to say this, but I can't help wondering whether in 4 or 5 years time, we'll not be looking at a much changed/reduced LOI, and tracing many of its problems back to those European runs by Shels, DCFC and Pats etc, more specifically the unsustainable hopes and ambitions etc which they engendered?

[thischarmingman]

Believe it or not, Irish clubs have never had it so good


Bear with the following statement now: we've just witnessed a golden age for Irish domestic soccer.

Granted, the balance sheets and business headlines that propelled it may absolutely scream otherwise and render that age fool's gold. But consider this. The Uefa coefficient league ranking is based on the last five years of continental competition. In 2004, when the current cycle started, the League of Ireland was 40th of 53 European leagues. It is now 30th, the third biggest leap in that period. Only the Romanian (17 places to ninth) and Russian (15 places to sixth) leagues enjoyed greater leaps.


Full atricle at trubune.ie (http://www.tribune.ie/sport/soccer/article/2009/jul/12/believe-it-or-not-irish-clubs-have-never-had-it-so/).

[EalingGreen]

Full atricle at trubune.ie (http://www.tribune.ie/sport/soccer/article/2009/jul/12/believe-it-or-not-irish-clubs-have-never-had-it-so/).
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. :confused:

Certainly, where it charts the impressive progress of LOI clubs in Europe etc, that article could be used to refute the point I am making.

On the other hand, with its allusion to "fools gold" etc, I could argue that it doesn't really contradict my speculation about (short term) on-the-field progress leading to (longer term) off-the-field regression.

Or I could simply say "Well Done!" to the LOI, but argue that their circumstances are not especially applicable to those faced by IL clubs.

[thischarmingman]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. :confused:


Wasn't trying to make a point, I've been following this thread with interest and throught that it was a relevant news item considering the ongoing debate. If you want my opinions on the thread, I'll try and post later when I have more time but for now I was just interested in hearing your reactions. ;)

[EalingGreen]

for now I was just interested in hearing your reactions. ;)
Tbh, I don't think anyone will truly be able to assess the impact of the LOI's European "push" for another 4 or 5 years.
That is, if the leading clubs can stabilise financially during that period, and emerge from the Recession etc in reasonably good shape, then as a strategy, it could be said to have been successful.

On the other hand, if a number of clubs end up going bust because they overreached themselves on the basis of European riches, then it will turn out to have been a (major) screw-up.

For let's face it, if you compare the ROI with the likes of Belgium, Scotland or even Holland etc, long-term success in Europe for clubs from smaller countries cannot be taken for granted.

Whereas, once a club goes bust, it's usually forever*.


* - Unless, of course, it's Cork you're talking about, who somehow always manage to "bob back up to the surface". Must be something to do with the name! ;)

[AnnaghRed]

Surely the woeful IL performances again emphasise the need for an AIL to play against 'better' teams more consistently, as in the might of the LOI who are currently better!

Still look forward to the usual response from the usual suspects why they're 'better off' festering in isolation....

Why do the admittedly woeful IL results emphasise the need for an AIL? Are you that desperate to introduce a couple of proddy teams to add a bit of edge to your league?

Excellent result for Bohs tonight btw, they'd be welcome back in the IL tomorrow :D

[5ForKeeps]

Glentoran's 6-0 drubbing last night adds to a disastrous campaign for IL clubs.

[EalingGreen]

Glentoran's 6-0 drubbing last night adds to a disastrous campaign for IL clubs.
Yep.

I watched almost all of it onstream. It was 0-0 after half an hour, 1-0 at half-time, 3-0 after 80 minutes, then they let in three in the last 10 mins - could have been more, in truth.

Tbf, that was a very good Maccabi team they were up against - I'd say in terms of skill and technique etc, they were a good 3 goals better than the Glens. Their clearly superior fitness (esp), plus home advantage, easily accounted for the rest.

Quite honestly, even had we been facing them in September or October, they'd still have gone through comfortably, since they looked pretty good to me. I wouldn't bet against them getting through to the Group stages (unless it was a case of the Glens making them look better than they are).

[ifk101]

Well Alan McDonald and Glentoran were waving the white flags before this match was played and it was only ever going to end one way.

IL clubs European record for 2009 so far is;
6 matches played, 5 defeats and 1 draw, 2 goals scored and 25 goals conceded.

[Gather round]

Crusaders' coach Stanley Baxter thinks we can go to Skopje and win. That's the spirit.

[mypost]

Their clearly superior fitness (esp), plus home advantage, easily accounted for the rest.

The Israeli league hasn't started yet either. I strongly doubt whether a LOI club would cave in quite as easily.

[Section E Loyal]

Here's hoping the Crues do it tonight.

[pineapple stu]

1-0 down after 20 minutes.

[adamcarr]

35 mins

2-0

[EalingGreen]

Would a slight change in the calendar for IL clubs not improve or make them more competitive in Europe.

To be fair, not everyone in the IFA/IL is entirely hostile to change. In last week's Belfast Telegraph, IFA President Raymond Kennedy speculated on the possibility of moving the season to help our clubs in Europe. (Btw, I personally think that whilst that would help, it is only half the story, the other half being the need for full-time status. And sadly, I simply cannot see how the IL as a whole could support that :()

Anyhow, here's what President Kennedy said:

Irish FA President Raymond Kennedy last night asked Irish FA Premiership clubs to consider radical changes to the structure of the local game if they want to perform better in Europe.

Kennedy is also a close follower of the League of Ireland and sees the success of their clubs in European competitions as evidence of what summer football can achieve on the continent.

Glentoran’s 6-0 hammering at the hands of Israeli champions Maccabi Haifa rubbed salt into the wounds after Linfield and Lisburn Distillery suffered the two heaviest aggregate defeats in the opening round of the Europa League a week ago.

Crusaders won some pride back and will travel to Macedonia next week with hope after a 1-1 draw against Rabotnicki, but they must score away from home, which no Irish League team has managed in Europe this season.

In contrast Bohemians, St Patrick’s Athletic and Derry City all drew 1-1 in the opening legs of their respective European games and with Bohs and the Candystripes having home advantage next week and an away goal under their belts they will be fancied to progress.

Results like that are something that our teams can only dream of with just one win each for Glentoran and Linfield in the mainstream European competitions in the last 14 years.

“There isn’t a level playing field in Europe and our teams are under prepared for that level of football,” admitted Kennedy.

“It isn’t feasible for them to be properly prepared for matches in early July when they have had a month off before they start training again for European matches and are going in with maybe only one match behind them.

“Teams in the League of Ireland have definitely benefited from playing in the summer and to me that is the only way that our results in Europe will improve.

“When you see that Derry City, Bohemians and St Patrick’s Athletic all drew and Sligo Rovers, who were in Europe for the first time, only lost by one goal, the results speak for themselves.

“They are in the middle of their season and are much better prepared.

“A draw in Europe has to be considered a good result no matter who the opposition are.

“It may be hard to change the season, but why not try it and if it doesn’t work it can be changed back and we’ll try to come up with something else.

“The Danes and the Georgians haven’t started their seasons yet, but are still ahead of our clubs, so we have to try to close the gap somehow.

“It would be interesting to see how their preparations differ.

“A few years ago our teams had a couple of wins against Icelandic opposition. It would be interesting to go up against them and see how much they have caught up.”

[pineapple stu]

4-1 now. Not long to go. Crues got it back to 2-1, and 3-2 overall, but then shipped two late-ish goals.

[dancinpants]

Match finished 4-2.

[Section E Loyal]

I just wonder if they had big Coates on would they not have shipped all 4 goals, maybe could've ended 2-2? As ever, it's what ifs.

[ifk101]

I just wonder if they had big Coates on would they not have shipped all 4 goals, maybe could've ended 2-2? As ever, it's what ifs.

The first two goals they scored were very soft. Maybe if he was playing the defence would have been more organised and those two goals could have been avoided.

[Gather round]

Maybe, baby.

It looks a respectable result to me, though we should probably have won the first leg.

Irish League overall: 8-0-1-7-4-33. Not good.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So summer football ASAP then?
And an AIL also.


Think EG summarised aptly on the previous page....