Irish League clubs in Europe?

[Cymro]

....... do you consider it crucial eg to Distillery that they should merely lose 2-1* at home to a Georgian side, rather than 5-1

* - Remember, by way of comparison, 2-1 was the score by which Sligo Rovers lost at home to an Albanian team the same night...

You could also use by comparison the results the Welsh teams got that night (1-0 win away and 2-1 defeat away), both of which give said sides a good chance of progress. Surely the Irish league must think itself capable of at least matching the Welsh Premier, yet it is not even doing that at present.

As I said before, if a more professional attitude were adopted then progress would probably follow, if not initially then eventually. And I don't know about you, but a tie against a side like Basel, Rapid Vienna, Pacos Ferreira, Gent, Steaua Bucharest, or NAC Breda (just some of the teams in the second round draw) is worth fielding a full squad for. Saying 'we can't get through and anyway we're playing a small team so why bother' is a bad attitude.

[EalingGreen]

You could also use by comparison the results the Welsh teams got that night (1-0 win away and 2-1 defeat away), both of which give said sides a good chance of progress. Surely the Irish league must think itself capable of at least matching the Welsh Premier, yet it is not even doing that at present.

Fair point - both good results (though I can't help thinking that Llanelli hit Motherwell at just the best time).

As I said before, if a more professional attitude were adopted then progress would probably follow, if not initially then eventually. And I don't know about you, but a tie against a side like Basel, Rapid Vienna, Pacos Ferreira, Gent, Steaua Bucharest, or NAC Breda (just some of the teams in the second round draw) is worth fielding a full squad for. Saying 'we can't get through and anyway we're playing a small team so why bother' is a bad attitude.

Were last week's results a reflection of Welsh clubs making a conscious effort to "up their game" for Europe? If so, then fair play to them.
However, I don't think we can quite overlook other recent results where Welsh clubs were also embarrassed e.g. Bangor losing 10-1 (aggregate) to Midtylland, or Carmarthen 3-14 (agg) to Brann.

There may also be mitigating circumstances to explain individual IL results.
For just as Motherwell had just lost Mark McGhee, Distillery also lost their highly successful manager of 15 years(?) during close season (thanks to a Boardroom coup), which also caused a number of their leading players to walk out - all this just before their European tie.
As for Linfield, for some reason, they are traditionally crap in Europe (though they seem to rate the Setanta Cup).
By contrast, Glentoran have generally done OK in Europe in recent seasons.

Don't get me wrong, I cringe to see those IL results as much as anyone (except where it's Linfield ), and would love to see them taking it more seriously and doing better. However, I can also see why it is not at the top of their list of priorities, and why it would take more than just a bit of pre-match motivation etc, for IL teams to sustain a credible and rewarding challenge in Europe.

[Cymro]

In fairness Bangor and Carmarthen got horrible draws those years, although I admit they were terrible results. But they aren't happening on a consistent basis these days. Carmarthen played a Danish side I think it was the year before that (the year they beat Longford anyway) and the scoreline was respectable (2-0 defeat in each leg). But with Irish sides it was the same last year, and the year before that. And let's be honest, Zestafoni aren't one of the strongest sides in the first qualifying round. Linfield's result was half exusable because it was away against a strong Randers side (and apparently Linfield had held them for 60 minutes or so) but Lisburn losing 5-1 at home to a team like Zestafoni is embarrasing.

As for the Welsh results, yes, I do think that a more serious approach to Europe has paid dividends. If you look back to the turn of the century, only Barry Town ever achieved any decent results in Europe, everyone else got hammered consistently whereas these days even if we don't go through the results are much closer. Partly the improvement can be put down to less naivety on the part of our teams these days but a lot of it also has to be said for a better attitude.

[Dalymountrower]

In fairness Bangor and Carmarthen got horrible draws those years, although I admit they were terrible results. But they aren't happening on a consistent basis these days. Carmarthen played a Danish side I think it was the year before that (the year they beat Longford anyway) and the scoreline was respectable (2-0 defeat in each leg). But with Irish sides it was the same last year, and the year before that. And let's be honest, Zestafoni aren't one of the strongest sides in the first qualifying round. Linfield's result was half exusable because it was away against a strong Randers side (and apparently Linfield had held them for 60 minutes or so) but Lisburn losing 5-1 at home to a team like Zestafoni is embarrasing.

As for the Welsh results, yes, I do think that a more serious approach to Europe has paid dividends. If you look back to the turn of the century, only Barry Town ever achieved any decent results in Europe, everyone else got hammered consistently whereas these days even if we don't go through the results are much closer. Partly the improvement can be put down to less naivety on the part of our teams these days but a lot of it also has to be said for a better attitude.

Merthyr Tydfil?

[Cymro]

I was talking specifically about the Welsh Premier League. Merthyr's result against Atalanta was back in the 70s, well before the league was even suggested.

[Dodge]

For the record Distillery's 11-1 defeat came at the hands of the lowest possibled seeded team they could've faced

[AnnaghRed]

God thats bad, but it'll hardly impact much on their attendances this season

Maybe if we switch to summer football and bankrupt half our clubs, we could feel the pride of going out in the same round against a team from Albania?

[Dodge]

Well you've ready got the bankrupt bit...

[ifk101]

God thats bad, but it'll hardly impact much on their attendances this season

You can always rely on family and friends to turn up.

For the record Distillery's 11-1 defeat came at the hands of the lowest possibled seeded team they could've faced

It was also the largest aggregate defeat in the first round this year but it'll hardly impact much on their attendances this season.

[Steve Bruce]

Well you've ready got the bankrupt bit...

None of our clubs are in any immediate danger. Glentoran are really the only club that are in dire straights financially.

But this is not a point scoring thing. The thing that IL clubs have to get used to is, we are the worst (or atleast among them) in Europe and we're not going to improve much.

We get little funding, little tv exposure & little in the way of attendances. IL football is at this level because it's the level we are and whilst I do believe we should always strive to better ourselves, we have to do it in a responsible way and not follow the same road as the LOI. This isn't me point scoring as the LOI have a lot of good things going for it, but I think Shelbourne going as far as they did has been more trouble than it's worth as a lot of clubs have followed Shelbourne trying to chase a dream that is always going to be out of reach for any club on this island.

It would take a multi-millionaire who is willing to spending millions on getting the best players money can buy in this country and getting the luck of the draw right from 1st round to the last round of qualifying.

And that's just not going to happen.

The results this season have been shambolic for IL clubs. But it's something we have to accept. This is our level and unless something drastic changes, we will continue to sit at this level.

We however should not take any big risks in the hope of getting past a round or 2. We should just try and make our games more exciting to watch and make hte league a good league to watch even if the standard is low.

[pineapple stu]

Losing 11-1 to Georgian teams (who were 4-0 at half time each time, and presumably relaxed afterwards) is only your level because the players go on summer holidays each year.

Taking the competition seriously might only improve things to a 4-0 defeat against the same opposition, but it's definitely a non-drastic, non big-risk, change which can be implemented.

FWIW, UCD would be about the size of the smaller IL clubs, but because we took Europe seriously on both our times in it (calling all our players back early for pre-season training for the InterToto campaign in 2000; they were all looking forward to playing), we've gotten some good results. We've gone out first round each time, but at least we've enjoyed the experience, punched above our weight and can look back with pride on our achievements.

[EalingGreen]

None of our clubs are in any immediate danger. Glentoran are really the only club that are in dire straights financially.

But this is not a point scoring thing. The thing that IL clubs have to get used to is, we are the worst (or atleast among them) in Europe and we're not going to improve much.

We get little funding, little tv exposure & little in the way of attendances. IL football is at this level because it's the level we are and whilst I do believe we should always strive to better ourselves, we have to do it in a responsible way and not follow the same road as the LOI. This isn't me point scoring as the LOI have a lot of good things going for it, but I think Shelbourne going as far as they did has been more trouble than it's worth as a lot of clubs have followed Shelbourne trying to chase a dream that is always going to be out of reach for any club on this island.

It would take a multi-millionaire who is willing to spending millions on getting the best players money can buy in this country and getting the luck of the draw right from 1st round to the last round of qualifying.

And that's just not going to happen.

The results this season have been shambolic for IL clubs. But it's something we have to accept. This is our level and unless something drastic changes, we will continue to sit at this level.

We however should not take any big risks in the hope of getting past a round or 2. We should just try and make our games more exciting to watch and make hte league a good league to watch even if the standard is low.

Spot on in just about every respect, SB (imo), especially the last point.

P.S. Whilst the Glens do have a huge debt, in The Oval, they also have a (potentially) valuable site for redevelopment, as well as a reasonably wealthy Chairman (Aubry Ralph) who seems fairly committed to the club.

In which case, if/when the economy starts to pick up again; and/or the expansion of GB Belfast City Airport gets sorted; and/or the Government and IFA make progress over the Blanchflower Park Sports Centre & Stadium proposals; the Glens may be in a position to sell The Oval, clear their debts and become tenants at Blanchflower.

Of course, there are a huge number of "ifs and buts" in that scenario, any of which could further delay or even scupper any deal. But the good news is that unlike eg Ards or Bohs, we haven't (effectively) sold our ground before securing a replacement.

Further, with Ralph being a Property Developer, we've got to hope that he has the nous and integrity to put together a deal which is in the best interests of the club.

[EalingGreen]

Losing 11-1 to Georgian teams (who were 4-0 at half time each time, and presumably relaxed afterwards) is only your level because the players go on summer holidays each year.

Taking the competition seriously might only improve things to a 4-0 defeat against the same opposition, but it's definitely a non-drastic, non big-risk, change which can be implemented.

FWIW, UCD would be about the size of the smaller IL clubs, but because we took Europe seriously on both our times in it (calling all our players back early for pre-season training for the InterToto campaign in 2000; they were all looking forward to playing), we've gotten some good results. We've gone out first round each time, but at least we've enjoyed the experience, punched above our weight and can look back with pride on our achievements.

The IL season ended in May. Therefore, if IL clubs insist on players being available for European games in the first week of July, they will lack fitness if they go straight in.

And even if they come back early for pre-season preparation (i.e. in June), they will still lack match fitness.

Therefore, whilst they could be expected to be much more competitive than Distillery and Linfield were, they are still unlikely to progress - certainly not beyond the 2nd round. (For proof of that, you only need look at the Welsh clubs who, whilst performing creditably, still went out.)

And if you did try that, you would then have to give the players time off in August or September, since they are (after all) only part-timers. This would then screw up a team's domestic season.

Of course, the IL might consider moving to a summer season, with more full-time players. Then again, Sligo are in that position, and whilst they look to have done well in their two games, nonetheless they are in the exact same position as eg Distillery i.e. out of the competition in the 1st Round, after two defeats by mediocre opposition.

[pineapple stu]

When we were last in Europe, our season ended in May. We played the TotoToto, which started earlier than the UEFA. We played against a team featuring a couple of Bulgarian internationals (one of whom is still playing for Bulgaria) and drew both games.

The only difference I can see is that our players wanted to play in Europe, whereas yours don't.

(And with regards your point about not progressing beyond the second round - had Distillery won, they'd be welcoming Henrik Larsson for the next round. There's plenty of big teams and big names in the second round. Enough to make it worthwhile trying to get through every now and again).

[mypost]

And if you did try that, you would then have to give the players time off in August or September, since they are (after all) only part-timers. This would then screw up a team's domestic season.

Of course, the IL might consider moving to a summer season, with more full-time players. Then again, Sligo are in that position, and whilst they look to have done well in their two games, nonetheless they are in the exact same position as eg Distillery i.e. out of the competition in the 1st Round, after two defeats by mediocre opposition.

The LOI off-season barely lasts 6 weeks, before pre-season is underway. By February, you're into the friendlies. The teams have to play each other 4-6 times a season, and play 10-15 more games a year than their IL counterparts. They're not all full timers, and they have families too.

They still want to play in Europe. The IL lads see it as a mad pis-up, and have no ambition to either play in it, or get into the next round. The continous "beach" stories are both ludicrous and laughable. Playing Coruna in the CL 3rd round qualifiers is a goal for LOI clubs. Playing Coleraine in the snow is the height of ambition for IL clubs.