Pre-qualifying in World Cup and European Championship competitions

[seand]

Because club football is sadly ruled by the clubs/leagues with greatest wealth (and therefore best players regardless of what they actually produce through their own academies), and they can dictate that not only have they got a structural advantage in that they come in later on, but they also get more entrants than other nations.

International football is not the same, it is by nature more meritocratic and democratic. I personally believe that pre-qualifying in general is unfair, but it's also true that in club football the gap between Barcelona and Bohemians is (rightly or wrongly) significantly greater than that between Spain and Rep. Ireland.

The gap between Barcelona and Bohemians is significantly less than that between Spain and Andorra though

[seand]

How will playing similar teams all the time make them more competitive?

The only way for smaller teams to improve and really test themselves is by playing in the current seeded groups consistently.

By this logic Rochdale should not be playing against the likes of Barnet, Aldershot and Lincoln in League Two because the 'only way for smaller teams [like Rochdale] to improve and really test themselves is by playing...' the likes of Manchester United!


(Good debate this, a rarity in internet forums these days.)

[Den Perry]

Completely against all attempts to "pre-qualify" for the WC and EC.

You can guarantee that if such an idea ever was given the go-ahead, it wouldn't be long before higher teams would be made pre-qualify as well.

As for the idea that certain small state populations should pre-qualify :rolleyes: What's your suggestion if they improve well enough to be 5th seeds in the group? It's not long ago since Greece and Turkey routinely finished bottom of their groups.

This is international football, not the CL, and everyone's invited. Those countries that are 6th seeds in the group reflects where they stand in international football today, and gives them the incentive to improve in the future.


Very good point about Turkey there

KOH

[endabob1]

Firstly Thanks Cymro for the detailed reply, I had meant to reply earlier but I’ve only been able to pop in and out of here with work continuing to get in the way! :(

I think we could do with a proper break in competitive international football and less games like England v Andorra which revenue aside really benefit no one.
I would use the 6 month gap as a window to give teams’ time to play friendly or 2 to blood new players for the next set of qualifiers. Also whether we like it or not (and personally I don’t) Champions league is the cash cow for so many clubs & UEFA that it’s going nowhere & its format is not going to be altered a great deal. I don’t think International football is a burden on fans, but I think fans want competition not a cake walk.

I get your point with regard to still having play-offs but with uneven numbers it’s difficult to avoid some form of play-off, the current system of top 8 runners up from 9 groups is very messy imho & at least pre-qualifying would give rise to a more structured final qualifying set up.

I accept there are arguments for letting weaker teams “learn” by playing stronger teams but I don’t agree with it, I think they are more likely to become demoralised by the gulf in class, thus my example of letting Man Utd play Gedling Miners Welfare. In reality Utd would put out a youth/reserve side and still cruise through, the “prestige” of international football and the fact that 80quid tickets are being sold wouldn’t allow England to play their B team against Andorra for example. International football has a duty to improve the weaker nations, letting them get hammered 3 or 4 times a year does nothing to help them.

Although I use the wording Immediate, what I am getting at is avoiding a situation where teams play in a qualifying tournament for 2014 while 2010 is going on, it happens in other sports where there is a big gulf in class, Rugby League & 7’s Rugby Union or example have a 2 tier (or 3 tiers) world cup which is the kind of thing you want to avoid.

Pre-qualifying happens in virtually every confederation except UEFA & South America and as Europe continues to break up and smaller nations join (I’m thinking of Georgia’s potential split & a couple of others) I think pre-qualifying is going to become a must, it will either be that or as someone else suggested we instigate stricter rules on where Europe begins but as more countries means more political muscle within FIFA I can’t see UEFA turning its back on anyone.

[Cymro]

The gap between Barcelona and Bohemians is significantly less than that between Spain and Andorra though

Granted, but that wasn't the point I was making. The point was mainly that club football simply works differently to internationals due to the balance of power being held by clubs with lots of money, thus being nationally speaking a less 'fair' form of the game than international football. Please also bear in mind that I have never expressed agreement with this as a method of governance. Ideally for me the same qualification system that applies with internationals would apply with European cloub competitions, but such a schedule would play havoc with domestic club competition.

Furthermore, the comparison isn't really a fair one. Bohemians aren't the lowest of the low in club football; Andorra are in internationals. For a fair comparison you might see the Andorran club champions who have to win three ties to get a crack at the big boys under the new CL rules.


By this logic Rochdale should not be playing against the likes of Barnet, Aldershot and Lincoln in League Two because the 'only way for smaller teams [like Rochdale] to improve and really test themselves is by playing...' the likes of Manchester United!

(Good debate this, a rarity in internet forums these days.)

You aren't seriously comparing a dmoestic league competition to the World Cup and European championships are you? As I've shown before, league competitions allow much more opportunity for aspiring teams than the proposed 'pre-qualifying' system would. You have 3 promotions from League Two each year. This is vastly different from maybe one every four years as in the pre-qualifying (two years if only one competition i.e. WC or EC chose pre-qualifying).

Furthermore, look at the other opportunities English league two clubs have to test themselves competitively against higher standard teams:

FA Cup
Carling Cup
Football League trophy

etc.

All held every season.

For me the key thing in this regard with pre-qualifying is that a small team with a decent side could actually miss out on their best years (27-31 years old) because results went against them in pre-qualifying for a couple of campaigns. This team might actually have done fairly well in the qualifiers proper, but would be denied the chance under a system of pre-qualifying.

endabob/Gather Round - I'll reply to you a bit later if you don't mind. Thanks for your replies though.

[DeLorean]

The gap between Barcelona and Bohemians is significantly less than that between Spain and Andorra though

I'd imagine the scorelines would be similar.