All-Ireland team v Brazil

[patsh]

There was a very interesting piece on Des Cahills sports show tonight, Friday.
He had an interview with Mick Martin and Derek Dougan about the famous all-Ireland team game against Brazil. Dougan spoke about the hassle he had to put up with, and how Harry Cavan, the IFA boss and a FIFA bigwig, did his damnest to stop the game going ahead. He did manage to get FIFA to stop the team playing as Ireland, so they had to call themselves a Shamrock Rovers 11.
Dougan, at the time, was probably the top striker in England, was at the peak of his career, yet was never selected by NI again.
Dougan couldn't even approach players clubs to release them, because they would probably have been stopped from playing. He had to rely on his friendship with the NI players, and they put their international careers in jeopardy too.
Brazil won 4-3, and even though it was a friendly, in those days they played for real.
There are not too many good players in the present NI setup, but given that we are not blessed either, there probably is the makings of a decent team between the two of us.
Will we ever see something like it again?

[John83]

Just so long as we never see the kind of stupidity that would see either organisation end such a good player's international career for so little, I'm happy.

[adamcarr]

Originally posted by patsh

Will we ever see something like it again?

not a hope!!!

[Duncan Gardner]

That he was 35 years old at the time might have had something to do with it?

[patsh]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
That he was 35 years old at the time might have had something to do with it?
If its Derek Dougan you mean, its a fairly weak excuse. He went on to have his best season ever with Wolves, had been a regular up until the game and suddenly his international career was over.
It's not like NI were so overladen with strikers that they could afford to leave out on the the top scorers playing in England.
things have cjhanged a bit now, but it cannot be denied that the IFA was extremely sectarian in those days.

Dougan himself felt that the reason the two associations would never merge, was that too many of the "suits" would lose out on the foreign trips and junkets. Thats probably 100% correct.

[Duncan Gardner]

I'll accept that Sammy Morgan was a lesser international footballer than Dougan. My point is that his age was a factor- it made it easier for the IFA to sideline him completely. Had he been 25 or 30 it would have been more difficult.

Also, axing the Doog allowed the introduction of one Martin O'Neill :)

Saving their junkets, though a factor in every action taken by the FAI and IFA, is rather secondary to the real obstacles preventing an all-Ireland team. I'm sure you'd agree 100%, altogether.

[patsh]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Saving their junkets, though a factor in every action taken by the FAI and IFA, is rather secondary to the real obstacles preventing an all-Ireland team. I'm sure you'd agree 100%, altogether.
What do you think are those obstacles?

[Le chien noir]

The vast majority of Northern Ireland fans and I suspect a considerable number of Republic fans are not interested. This obstacle alone is enough.

[lopez]

Originally posted by patsh
If its Derek Dougan you mean, its a fairly weak excuse. He went on to have his best season ever with Wolves, had been a regular up until the game and suddenly his international career was over.
All this was covered in Doog's two books 'How not to run football' and 'The Sash He Never Wore'. Age may well be a consideration in a country with a large pool of players, but it's too much of a coincidence in this respect, although his relationship, or lack of one, with Terry Neil (manager? captain?) could also have been a factor. Certainly his career in top flight football wasn't hindered for two years at least. Anyway, Dougan is not exactly a popular bloke with many Northern fans for his stance on an all-Ireland team (none of which suggests he was a nationalist). Some want him airbrushed from history in proposals to paint the bridge leading to Windsor Park with players' faces.

Originally posted by Le chien noir
The vast majority of Northern Ireland fans and I suspect a considerable number of Republic fans are not interested. This obstacle alone is enough.
You're right to an extent but it's not fans that will be at the negotiations. Many of Northern joe public - not all nationalist by any stretch - would agree to a an all-Ireland team, providing certain conditions were met. However the obstacles are greatest where they matter and that's in the boardrooms of both associations, where the thought of having to pay for all that opulence will cause a few coronaries.

The real nightmare situation for NI fans is an all-British XI where most NI footballers would have to opt for the 26C if they want a chance of playing international football. This would be a de facto all -Ireland team with no concessions to unionism. NI fans would be left with either following a team containing local lads yet stands contrary to everything many NI fans believe in, or a team with the likelihood of no local lads, playing far away in London, presently supported by 'superprods' and loyalist paramilitaries, with only the possibility of a friendly every twenty years at WP to look forward to.

BTW, le chien noir: No relation to my good friend on ourweecountry le chien fâché?:D

[Slash/ED]

It's not worth the hassle, I can't think of a single NI player who'd get their game for us to be completley honest, a few squad members at most.

[Pogsly]

Aaron Hughes of Newcastle would be a definite squad member

[Slash/ED]

Squad member probably but he wouldn't displace Carr or Finnan at right back for the starting 11.

[Duncan Gardner]

In answer to Pat,

http://www.foot.ie/showthread.php?s=&postid=76597#post76597

And to Lopez, I don't really see your point. The FAI and IFA don't have the will to force this through against fan opposition, which is obvious as Black Dog says. You seem to be contradicting all your previous and valid criticisms of Fran and the lads simply to have a dig at NI. Even if everyone at Merrion Square and Windsor Avenue was promised a season ticket to FIFA junkets for life, they aren't going to merge the two teams. Time to accept reality, eh?

[Le chien noir]

Lopez,

No relation as far as I'm aware of. You are right about an all-British team being as unappealing as an all-Ireland one, although for a different reason than the frankly contrived and ham-fisted one you offered. For better or for worse NI suppporters and most players are loyal to their country's team, which despite the recent shockingly bad times has provided many astonishingly good times as well. Call it over-optimistic or even delusional , but there is always that hope that we will 'turn the corner' again. Simple as that.

By the way Duncan, can I assume you are a fellow Crues fan?

[fromthenorthffs]

Will we ever see something like it again?


not a hope!!!

Unless Brian Kerr gives Neil Lennon a ring before the game with Brazil

Now theres a thought

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
And to Lopez, I don't really see your point. The FAI and IFA don't have the will to force this through against fan opposition, which is obvious as Black Dog says. You seem to be contradicting all your previous and valid criticisms of Fran and the lads simply to have a dig at NI. Even if everyone at Merrion Square and Windsor Avenue was promised a season ticket to FIFA junkets for life, they aren't going to merge the two teams. Time to accept reality, eh?
My point was that the IFA's and FAI's self interests are the priority. What consideration did the FA and SFA take of NI fans when they unilaterally decided to dump the British Championship? Did the East German FA consult the 'fans' when both teams were joined? Since when do the people running football listen to fans?

Both associations have nothing to gain by pushing for an all-Ireland team, so it doesn't matter what the fans say. We all accept that it's not going to happen unless there is a change politically or that FIFA rules that there should be one team from one country. If the political or football climate changed, and you think that either an all-Ireland state or an all-British team will allow the status quo to continue because the fans want it, then it's you that needs a reality check.

As for having a pop at NI, apologies if that was what it sounded, but this was not my intention.:( However, I think that by only opening my mouth on the subject is having a pop as far as you are concerned, and that I get the impression that you find this subject a quite irritating (BTW, that is a dig at you). It may seem to you that NI is none of our business, but sadly some of it is. Both associations were once joined; both parts of Ireland successfully combine to join all - Ireland teams in other sports, even by sports associations founded long after partition, so much that separate North-South sporting teams are usually the exception; everyone born in or have parents and grandparents from Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship thus permitting them to play for us. You have to accept that people here are entitled to their opinion on NI even if they have little interest in their results.

[patsh]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
In answer to Pat,

http://www.foot.ie/showthread.php?s=&postid=76597#post76597

Seems to me the real obstacle is the suits and their junkets.....:o
Every other sport on this island is an all-ireland sport.

[Duncan Gardner]

OK Lopez. I'll admit to overstating the influence of 'fans', where you count their number as the attendance at games, lobbies like this and OWC, or whatever.

'Public opinion', if you prefer. When it comes to the crunch unionists in NI, even if their interest in the game is passing, aren't going to let their team be abolished. No IFA leadership could hope to survive trying to achieve this.

The same applies to an all-UK team. The four FAs are adamantly opposed and UEFA and FIFA will do nothing to impose. The broad trend of their policy is almost exactly the opposite, unless you really think Andorra (joint heads of state Chirac and a Spanish bishop) or the Faeroes (an autonomous region of Denmark) are sovereign countries.

I have no objection to you, or anyone, discussing NI issues (if I did, I'd hardly appear on a RoI board to discuss them with you, eh?). Where you contradict or endlessly repeat yourself, or dismiss those disagreeing you as paranoid or otherwise obsessive, expect argument.

Black Dog. Aye, on and off (mainly the latter) since 1970. I should be at Seaview on 21 February, also may see you in Tallinn?

Davros. OWC offers free speech, but it isn't unlimited. If you repeatedly post inflammatory sectarian views (most starkly on the 'beggars belief' thread), abuse other contributors, and appear
incapable of understanding anything about NI outside the plantation/ paramilitary stereotypes, you will remain banned. Should you withdraw your worst excesses, as I told you, we'll reconsider :D

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
OK Lopez. I'll admit to overstating the influence of 'fans', where you count their number as the attendance at games, lobbies like this and OWC, or whatever.

'Public opinion', if you prefer. When it comes to the crunch unionists in NI, even if their interest in the game is passing, aren't going to let their team be abolished. No IFA leadership could hope to survive trying to achieve this.
Public opinion is another matter, if we are talking about a mutual reconciliation of both associations. However on my last visit to Belfast, the public's affection for the team seems very lukewarm. While this may be down to results, the evidence in other countries with similar placed teams suggests that the public will still follow the team. The day of the game I saw kids and adults in Central Belfast wearing England and Republic Shirts aswell as the obligatory old firm, but none from NI until I got near the ground. OK this was just my perception, but it was the day of a major international.

Again the poll on BBC about an all-Ireland team - not exactly a foolproof exercise but an exercise no less. You dismissed that by saying that NI fans would not vote for the destruction of their own team. Who voted then? I'd say the public whose opinion you consider important, but then others would say that it was just Taigs sitting up all day with their finger on the redial button.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
The same applies to an all-UK team. The four FAs are adamantly opposed and UEFA and FIFA will do nothing to impose. The broad trend of their policy is almost exactly the opposite, unless you really think Andorra (joint heads of state Chirac and a Spanish bishop) or the Faeroes (an autonomous region of Denmark) are sovereign countries.
The broad trend is in the opposite direction, but I think this is due to UEFA wanting more votes in FIFA to combat all the tiny countries that are tipping the balance in favour of the so - called 'third world'. However, the last time that none of the British countries failed to qualify a major newspaper asked if not a UK team would be better? The idea of an all - British team is not a preposterous as you imagine, and it is still one country.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I have no objection to you, or anyone, discussing NI issues (if I did, I'd hardly appear on a RoI board to discuss them with you, eh?). Where you contradict or endlessly repeat yourself, or dismiss those disagreeing you as paranoid or otherwise obsessive, expect argument.
If I contradict myself, please point it out, because I've yet to find any contradiction in my post. Sometimes there is more than one angle to an argument; sometimes like yourself we change our views after the last thread on the subject six months ago. If you tell me where I contradict myself I'll do my utmost to either clarify myself or admit that I've changed my stance.

As for paranoia and obsessiveness well if you (or rather some of your fellow NI supporters) insist on claiming that Northern Republic fans were responsible for making death threats to Neil Lennon or that one of NIs greatest footballers should be vilified because he supported the formation of an all-Ireland team (let's get this straight, when NI was picking southern players up until 1950, there was no dissent over this in NI, but once the power and games had to shared with the south there's an uproar) or call me a bigot because I took one of your mates to task - admittedly over the top but then I thought I'd mirror the original post's style - for what was a complete pack of unadulterated sh*te or my suggestion that military symbols on a NI forum may not be the best way to getting RCs back to WP, then yes you bet we have got an argument. I don't agree with Davros descending into 'inflammatory sectarian views', which caused much venting of spleens, but at least your colleagues now know what it feels like being called Beggars and Tinkers while being labelled a nation of thieves.

[John83]

Originally posted by fromthenorthffs
Unless Brian Kerr gives Neil Lennon a ring before the game with Brazil

Now theres a thought
I hope that was a joke. He's neither eligable nor interested. And I'm not sure he's good enough any more - certainly he's no better than what we have.

[lopez]

Originally posted by John83
I hope that was a joke. He's neither eligable nor interested. And I'm not sure he's good enough any more - certainly he's no better than what we have.
I thought he was. FIFA brought in new rules recently about players switching from one country to another if they have dual citizenship. Take your point about his quality and age but for a one off the entertainment value viewing the hysteria amongst some sections of NI society would be just worth it.:D

[John83]

Originally posted by lopez
...for a one off the entertainment value viewing the hysteria amongst some sections of NI society would be just worth it.:D
That has some merit alright! :D

I thinik the FIFA rule changes are in relation to players who played for a country at U21 level or younger. Players with senior caps can only change country in very exceptional circumstances (like the Croatian players after their country split from Yugoslavia).

[fromthenorthffs]

Its quite simple, just don't have it as a fifa sanctioned game. We are paying Brazil for a game of football, they don't care who they play.

And the reaction would be hilarious

[lopez]

Originally posted by fromthenorthffs
Its quite simple, just don't have it as a fifa sanctioned game. We are paying Brazil for a game of football, they don't care who they play.

And the reaction would be hilarious
Sorry but only a full international would do for the full 'it's just gone thermo-nuclear' effect. :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Duncan Gardner]

We have a compromise it seems.

The lack of a lengthy reply is appreciated :)