Is Foot.ie just becoming a talking shop?

[NeilMcD]

Fair enough so; cheers for that.

What I'll do anyway is split the Cyprus thread into smaller, topic specific chunks; I think it'd work well.

If it's a members issue, the best thing you - or anyone - can do is start a few threads.

I do my best pineapple. One of the best and most rewarding things I have done was organise the bus in Montenegro and the amount of good people I met from that was great. Met lots of them on subsequent trips and anybody who was on the bus was sound and we had a good laugh.

[Newryrep]

What would go in Fans' Forum so? .....

How does the content on TA differ to here? Or what would it be hoped be achieved by the changes?

see link below, i might of explained it better

http://taboard.com/forum/index.php?act=idx

[SkStu]

I do my best pineapple..

Have to agree with this Neil.

To be fair, and this is from someone who just browses this forum and doesnt travel (obviously) to watch the team play - Neil (at least i think it was you) tried to start a thread on the funniest away trip stories which i thought was a brilliant idea and was looking forward to hearing all the stories from down through the years. I think it made 2 pages, of which 5-6 posts must have been Neil trying to encourage people to post their stories and referring to the same thread over on ybig. It made me go and look (i had never visited the site before) and the difference in dynamics between the two was worlds apart. There must have been 16-17 pages of stories and accusations and retorts, it was hilarious.

Whereas foot.ie looks (a lot) better and is more informative, there seems to be a real camraderie and spirit over on ybig. I admire what you tried to do Neil but i think the result speaks volumes.

In short, i think it boils down to the fans that each site has attracted as opposed to the structure or otherwise of each site. Perhaps this site is over-moderated and that has driven some of the more "care-free" or "colourful" posters away. Its all just my opinion though i do agree that there is no apparent quick fix to the problems raised here.

[holidaysong]

lots of LOI fans on ybig benno , and plenty focus on it in the fanzine , interview with richie sadlier in the next issue !

From having a quick glance at the YBIG forum, it seems the LOI forum over there is extremely quiet. Foot.ie is primarily a LOI site. It suits me to just come in here to the Ireland section and chat about a few topics relating to the national team now and again. Personally, I don't see the need for endless topics on away Ireland games, as I don't go to any.

[SkStu]

id just like to add that perhaps splitting the fans forum and ireland forum might be a good place to start.

[pineapple stu]

Fans' Forum and the Ireland are already split. That's kind of why we have a Fans' Forum and an Ireland forum. ;)

If you mean make one not a sub-forum of the other, dahamsta can arrange that, but I don't see how it'll make much difference. Seems to me to make sense that travelling to games, making flags, meeting up, etc, should be a subsection of the national team in general.

[paul_oshea]

Got we track sided?!

[SkStu]

Fans' Forum and the Ireland are already split. That's kind of why we have a Fans' Forum and an Ireland forum.
If you mean make one not a sub-forum of the other, dahamsta can arrange that, but I don't see how it'll make much difference. Seems to me to make sense that travelling to games, making flags, meeting up, etc, should be a subsection of the national team in general.

i think it was obvious what i meant. :mad: ;) The fans forum might attract more traffic if it was seperate and apart from the ireland forum but both came under the "Ireland Section". I dont know if it will make a difference but, as i said, it might. It also might benefit from looser moderation.

Otherwise, as stated, it just boils down to the type of poster/fan attracted by foot.ie in general.

[NeilMcD]

Have to agree with this Neil.

To be fair, and this is from someone who just browses this forum and doesnt travel (obviously) to watch the team play - Neil (at least i think it was you) tried to start a thread on the funniest away trip stories which i thought was a brilliant idea and was looking forward to hearing all the stories from down through the years. I think it made 2 pages, of which 5-6 posts must have been Neil trying to encourage people to post their stories and referring to the same thread over on ybig. It made me go and look (i had never visited the site before) and the difference in dynamics between the two was worlds apart. There must have been 16-17 pages of stories and accusations and retorts, it was hilarious.

Whereas foot.ie looks (a lot) better and is more informative, there seems to be a real camraderie and spirit over on ybig. I admire what you tried to do Neil but i think the result speaks volumes.

In short, i think it boils down to the fans that each site has attracted as opposed to the structure or otherwise of each site. Perhaps this site is over-moderated and that has driven some of the more "care-free" or "colourful" posters away. Its all just my opinion though i do agree that there is no apparent quick fix to the problems raised here.

Yeah tht was me and I agree with your post above esp the last bit. The funny thing is there is an awful lot of crossover and there is not loads on YBIG that do not have foot.ie accounts as far as I can see.

[SkStu]

Got we track sided?!

how so, Paul? I think things might have improved markedly since i took it upon myself to rescue the fans forum...

[DmanDmythDledge]

As far as forum layout in concerned I think it would be best if World Cup was put into other football and instead of an international section make that an Ireland section.

[NeilMcD]

Fair enough so; cheers for that.

What I'll do anyway is split the Cyprus thread into smaller, topic specific chunks; I think it'd work well.

If it's a members issue, the best thing you - or anyone - can do is start a few threads.

Just to say I said it was a members issue as much as anything. This does not mean its purely a members issue. I do think that the over moderation of this specific forum is not needed in my view and has lad to what Skstu points out to the colourful characters etc.

I think its combination of things but the culture has been more of following rules rather than any bit of anarchy and craic. I agree with this approach for every other forum bar the fans forum but its only my opinion.


Got we track sided?!

I don't think we have at all.

[pineapple stu]

There's feck all moderation in the Fans' Forum, to be honest! All I really do is keep away game threads together instead of branching off into 20 threads, and dish out the odd infraction for excessive ****s and the likes. I make no apologies for either.

Again though, specific examples of something I as a mod could change would be welcomed.

[dahamsta]

I think the problem with "team spirit" - sorry, it just seemed appropriate - is that Foot.ie started out as an LOI site, and the Ireland fanbase sort of grew out of that. The problem in particular being that LOI fans are vehement - that's probably an understatement - about their support for Irish teams, viewing anyone that supports a british team a barstooler and a traitor working against the Irish teams they should be supporting. Which is fair enough imho, I'm a 100% convert.

Unfortunately though, well, that's a lot of your Ireland fans right there. Probably less so now that the sheepskin-wearers have gone back to their true love of rugby now someone's actually winning again, but it remains a problem. I'd suggest tolerance as the answer, but I think that's stretching things a bit far.

I think NeilMcD hit the nail on the head and answered his own question when he said it's mostly down to the fans. It's things like self-organised trips and buses and banners that create the camraderie, and that's what'll bring more people into the Fans Forum. That's not to say the mods don't have a part to play, they do, but we do kind of need guidance.

On that topic, one suggestion was that we go easier on the moderation in the Fans Forum, and on that I'd say Trust Is Earned. That's how it works globally on Foot.ie: if you're a good poster and you've been around a while, you'll get a hell of a lot more leeway than an illiterate n00b. That goes double if your contributions are felt of value to the site, rather than a community.

Naming is definitely an issue imho btw. I know and you know what the Fans Forum is for, but it's never been crystal clear, which is what you need to get newcomers in. I'm against splitting because splits need to come from demand, but renaming and/or moving it down to International isn't a big deal if people really think it'll help.

adam

[DmanDmythDledge]

Naming is definitely an issue imho btw. I know and you know what the Fans Forum is for, but it's never been crystal clear, which is what you need to get newcomers in. I'm against splitting because splits need to come from demand, but renaming and/or moving it down to International isn't a big deal if people really think it'll help.
Well the main reason I think the naming thing should be changed is that, as you've said, the site was originally for LOI fans and that's the way the site was laid out for, which hasn't really changed all that much except for a bit of tweaking to off-topic and the like. If there was an Ireland section instead of international that would give a bit of scope to expand a bit rather than just having an Ireland and fans forum section. As you said that would only be an issue if there is a lot of traffic in the forum, which I don't think is going to be a problem.

[dahamsta]

i think it was obvious what i meant. :mad: ;) The fans forum might attract more traffic if it was seperate and apart from the ireland forum but both came under the "Ireland Section"..The Ireland forum is kind of the Ireland section though, which was probably stu's point. The International grouping refers to International football, not Ireland in an international context. stu's just been around too long. :)

[Greenforever]

Neil, would it be fair to say that the reduction in posts regarding helping each other arrange buses, coaches etc is directly related to the huge reduction in numbers travelling to the current qualifiers??? rather than the layout of the forums

Missed you in Sofia, spent most of the time in the Radisson...

[dahamsta]

My last post was drafted before I saw this.


Well the main reason I think the naming thing should be changed is that, as you've said, the site was originally for LOI fans and that's the way the site was laid out for, which hasn't really changed all that much except for a bit of tweaking to off-topic and the like. If there was an Ireland section instead of international that would give a bit of scope to expand a bit rather than just having an Ireland and fans forum section. As you said that would only be an issue if there is a lot of traffic in the forum, which I don't think is going to be a problem.In comparison to some forums, traffic in Ireland isn't an issue, I just want to make sure people understand that we won't split to, say, a dozen forums. It just doesn't work.

I'm definitely open to the idea of a dedicated Ireland section; World Cup can pretty much be plonked anywhere for the moment. The question is, and this is as much directed at the mods as the membership, how do we rearrange it? And this always gets me: what do we call the Ireland forum? You can't have Ireland > Ireland, that's just wrong! :)

adam

[John83]

The question is, and this is as much directed at the mods as the membership, how do we rearrange it? And this always gets me: what do we call the Ireland forum? You can't have Ireland > Ireland, that's just wrong! :)

adam
"Team talk" is the equivalent juventuz.com sub-forum, if memory serves. I can't access it from here.

[dahamsta]

Well, let's start with:


General
Team Talk
Matches

Would that cover most bases?

[Junior]

I for one have not travelled during this campaign (apart from the home games of course!) due to other commitments but it is noticeable that whilst the support in Bari and Sofia was colourful and vocal it was down in the numbers we might have expected a few years ago.

As a result, the various posts about sharing taxis and the like become less relevant and obviously interesting (though I still cant help torturing myself to see what everyones plans are!!).

So I think Greenforever makes a fair point.

However, even when I was travelling to games, Ive never been one for the big 'Internet Forum Meetups' etc.. just not really my thing.

Whenever Ive browsed at YBIG there never seems to be that many posters viewing. I think circa 12-15 is the most Ive seen when Ive been on there. Is it a case of a few very dedicated lads& lassies, with loads of energy and enthusiasm to organism the bits and pieces you mention?

For what its worth, I prefer the layout of foot.ie myself but havent used ybig all that often. I dont really think there is a need to create further sub forums etc, you can easily find what you want as it is IMO

PS: Can I claim credit to starting the idea about a thread for each away game as a stickie? Im sure it was me but I could just be dreaming of glory............

[NeilMcD]

Whoever thought of it is a genius :)

[John83]

Well, let's start with:


General
Team Talk
Matches

Would that cover most bases?
Most any list with "General" in it covers most bases. :p

I'd suggest making General appear third in the forums list. If it's first, people will kind of default into it inappropriately.

[NeilMcD]

Neil, would it be fair to say that the reduction in posts regarding helping each other arrange buses, coaches etc is directly related to the huge reduction in numbers travelling to the current qualifiers??? rather than the layout of the forums

Missed you in Sofia, spent most of the time in the Radisson...

I don't think that is the reason because YBIG is very strong in this area at the moment. More of an explanation would be that lots of people are using the YBIG site for many of the fans forum type activities. Why this is I am not sure100 percent but possibly the more relaxed atmosphere could explain it. I think everybody on YBIG is generally an active fan of the Irish football team. Lots of them/us go to the games both home and away. As has been previously said, foot.ie grew out of the LOI and as a result there are a smalle minority of members who contribute to the ireland forum who are openly hostile to the Irish football team and then there are others that do not know what its like to go to a game and just like to talk tactics etc which is fine. As a result it is moderated more strictly than say ybig as it has to deal with **** stirrers and people who are not actually fans of the Irish football team. This has eaten in to the culture of the forum and as far as I see it following the rules is more important than the community as dahamasta has said above. This makes it not conducive to a culture of an Irish fans forum and a community spirit. In simple terms it has probably become too PC in order to have equal rights, even if this results in genuine fans of the Irish team going OTT with those who are not fans of the team. This is not slagging anybody but just an honest explanation of what has happened and possibly why. Its only my opinion and I have nothin against any of the moderators and I do not have any personal agenda.

[MariborKev]

Neil,

I think there has to be an acceptance that foot.ie will not be all things to all people.

In my view it is far and away the best message board for domestic Irish football, as well as a great sections on many other topics. YBIG has a more narrow remit and does a fantastic job with it.

Also, you have got to remember that many of us have been involved in previous fans type initiatives(previous singing sections, protests against Delaney etc) and sometimes you just get tired of it after a while.

[irishfan86]

I would honestly go with:

International>Ireland Discussion (discuss player news, tactics, results, etc.)
------------>Ireland Supporters Forum (plan events, meet-ups, etc.)
------------>World Cup Discussion

It seems like a simple thing, but nobody wants to click on a sub-forum first, but if it's a separate part of the international section I can guarantee you more traffic.

[theworm2345]

Is this a feeling of a need to compete with YBIG I'm sensing? YBIG is a good site (used to be a great site, don't just take my word for it, ask gouldinho) and they are usually efficient (I say usually because of things like no one ever finding the sausage man, making the podcast, organizing the match against foot.ie, and maybe a few other things). I think the good folks who run YBIG have connections that people here do not have and most of the people who have been there a long time actually know each other so gettng things organized is easier for them. Are they a threat to foot.ie's traffic though? No, they are a different sort of site. Hell when I was still posting there (and I posted alot) I was spending as much time here as I was before I posted there and as I do now after I stopped and I'm guessing others are the same. If YBIG is good for the supporters of Ireland and doesn't hurt this site why would there be a need to change things here (unless, of course, the vibes I though I was getting were wrong, which is very possible, and the Fans Forum was overdue for a change anyway)?

If foot.ie wasn't for the most part pretty well put together would it be the most popular Irish footy forum? I'd say no, and while there is always room for improvement (perhaps the mods could loosen up a bit?) I say if ain't broke don't fix it.

Let me also say that if YBIG does start to grow to anywhere near the size of this site it will likely become alot less popular alot more quickly. I left there because, as I stated before, what I enjoyed was that you actually sort of knew what each poster was like and the jokes coming from there made it a whole lot funnier. When that started going out the window (my estimate is mid-November of last year, when there was a large influx of new members) I (and I know of a few others too) just didn't enjoy it as much anymore. If that continues I think the influx will just level out again.



I think there has to be an acceptance that foot.ie will not be all things to all people.

Hear, hear

[Claret Murph]

Most of the traffic on YBIG is about is about Ireland they get it right and people focus on that . On foot as has been said it started out as a LOI site and grew from that . When I first came on here a couple of years back the Galway United section was very active but today one would say it has died , why well easy really as we have our own site now and we find it easy to stay at that . Foot covers so much and if you football and other subjects then i think the site has been watered down ( may be not the right word ) I myself only visit the fans forum as a rule unless something other takes my eye on the board .
Again like I said if you are in the hardcore bunch YBIG would be more your kind of site and I don't think Foot can match that really as they stick to what they are best at .

[pineapple stu]

Well, let's start with:


General
Team Talk
Matches

Would that cover most bases?
I'd suggest "Away Days" instead of "Matches", just to avoid talk about the matches themselves and focus on the travel, arrangements, etc. (I know that technically leaves out home games, but still).

Under Ireland, you're either talking about the matches (and players), or about going to the matches, so I'd put General at the bottom alright and try and kepe it as quiet as possible. Unless General is to encompass what's now World Football.

What I might do as well is bring back the roll-call for away games. But as others have pointed out, cosmetic changes probably won't suddenly solve the initial post's points. It's just the way.

[paul_oshea]

International>Ireland Discussion (discuss player news, tactics, results, etc.)
------------>Ireland Supporters Forum (plan events, meet-ups, etc.)
------------>World Cup Discussion

there is not really much difference there though is there>?

Lads personally I WOULD NOT like to see Ireland the forum split into general, team talk etc. I think the current Ireland forum is fine. I even think Fans Forum is fine but its up to the fans - on this site- to start doing things....I personally hate the idea of loads and loads of sub forums. I think Ireland, all things to do with the international team is the best solution, as is the current solution.

whoops, just read stus post, stu ye stealer did i not say "away days"? I thought ye were suggesting breaking up the "Ireland" forum....

[geysir]

Imo the Ireland forum does not need to split up into General and Team Talk.
If it aint broke don't fix it.
The usual main reason for a sub division is that threads disappear fast into page 2.
This is not the case in the Ireland forum, established threads have a regular enough discipline and a new thread takes more than a few days to fall down. I think Eirebhoy has a very good overview on how it feels to use the Ireland Forum. Imo, there is no good case to divide it up into General and Team.
I don't have many ideas for Forum layout. The OWC site has too many divisions and sub divisions.
Here, instead of the World Cup Forum you could have a Fans Forum proper.
And move the old World Cup threads to the History section.

edit - maybe I misunderstood the discussion

[NeilMcD]

Neil,

I think there has to be an acceptance that foot.ie will not be all things to all people.

In my view it is far and away the best message board for domestic Irish football, as well as a great sections on many other topics. YBIG has a more narrow remit and does a fantastic job with it.

Also, you have got to remember that many of us have been involved in previous fans type initiatives(previous singing sections, protests against Delaney etc) and sometimes you just get tired of it after a while.

My views were not on the rest of www.foot.ie and none of my posts have been related to that. It is to do with the fans forum and what has led it to go from a vibrant section where things were organised to a forum when you post up about great stories from the past you get about 7 replies. There is a lack of activitism on this area of the site and most of that has gone to ybig in my view. Plenty of the people who are active on ybig were and are members of foot.ie. That is the crux of my opinion and post on this. I am not talking about foot.ie in general at all.

The retort by one of the mods on the Cyprus thread to JT who has just recently joined in many ways sums it up. The fans forum will look lovely and be administered great but it will have no energy in it and nobody posting.

[Sligo Hornet]

My views were not on the rest of www.foot.ie (http://www.foot.ie) and none of my posts have been related to that. It is to do with the fans forum and what has led it to go from a vibrant section where things were organised to a forum when you post up about great stories from the past you get about 7 replies. There is a lack of activitism on this area of the site and most of that has gone to ybig in my view. Plenty of the people who are active on ybig were and are members of foot.ie. That is the crux of my opinion and post on this. I am not talking about foot.ie in general at all.

The retort by one of the mods on the Cyprus thread to JT who has just recently joined in many ways sums it up. The fans forum will look lovely and be administered great but it will have no energy in it and nobody posting.

I must admit I also felt that was domineering and unhelpful to a relative newcomer.......not surprised by her retort either, nor her lack of posts since

[pineapple stu]

It wasn't on the Cyprus thread; it was on a separate thread in a separate forum entirely (which was subsequently merged). The post was adequately explained (it was a second time pointing out the same thread), so I've no bothers with it. It's not as if an infraction or a banning was issued. If that's a problem, I think people need thicker skin.

[NeilMcD]

By its nature the fans forum attracts people who very rarely post and just want a bit of advice on trips etc and could be nervous internet users etc. They then post up on a site which they may perceive that everybody knows each other. They make a post in the wrong thread or set up a new thread and they are met with an unhelpful comment. I have done the same myself to "BeenThere" before I did mine in an ironic tone but I later realised it was not the done thing. Not everybody who posts in au fait with the internet etc and I think the fans forum tends to have more of these than other aspect of the site.

I think the fact you have just corrected me and said it was not on the Cyprus thread sums it up. I have thick skin and I do not give a damn but not everybody is like that and new users looking for info on one of their first trips to a match shut not be shot down so quickly. The site will survive if their is a loose thread hanging about, but the fans forum will not survive if people are too ****ed off to post.

[gustavo]

I think the fact you have just corrected me and said it was not on the Cyprus thread sums it up.
But ps knows you're au fait with the site ,So I don't see the problem :p

I personally don't think re-arrangement of the titles and remits of the various forums is neccecary

I don't think there's any great need to compete with YBIG , They do what they do very well and vice versa

[pineapple stu]

I completely understand people coming in and posting a new thread or in the wrong thread. That's why I genially pointed out the existing thread for the Cyprus game, a post which was genially acknowledged. When, within a couple of days, my post was ignored and another thread was started, I don't think the poster has the same excuse. (The poster last posted yesterday at midday, so I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the big bad mod has chased her away).

foot.ie's policy - as has been debated on the Ireland forum numerous times - is not to have seventeen threads where one will do. As mod, I'm just keeping to that policy. For one reason, I agree with it. Nobody's expressed a problem with it before. As such, part of the role of a mod is to stop threads splitting off into seventeen different threads all on the same thing. People should take a few seconds just to familiarise themselves with the forum rather than posting nilly-willy (which goes as well for new posters who post on the ticket exchange thread having clearly not read the rules)

[NeilMcD]

Sometimes being right is not the be all and end all.

[pineapple stu]

Sometimes people need to be less precious about what's said on the internet.

Anyway, I've explained that post, and don't apologise for it, so I think we can move on from it.

[paul_oshea]

moving on swiftly, does anyone think that foot.ie has become a talking shop, and that the mods are too hard?!

gustavo, change can be good if its in the right direction, for example Id say that the EL forum and the Ireland forum(at busiest times) would be relative in numbers or even bigger within the Ireland section, so as this site moved from LOI only to Ireland, it also moved to off topic etc, it accomodated what the users wanted. Which in fairness, and I for one have had the spats with ALL mods, they have got 100% right, in my very humble opinion! Anyway I think Neil has tested the waters since this post, lets hope people start putting up pictures. I will and identify those that I know if my mate gets his finger out and puts them up!!!

[elroy]

There is very few things i would change about this site.

My passion is the Irish international team, but I also follow LOI and the EPL and world football in general. For all things to do with Ireland team, the Ireland thread is my first point of call and is in general very informative and points are well debated with little change needed. I never find the need to view other sites tbh. The soccer republic site is quite impressive, however nonetheless I still feel foot.ie is the best for like minded supporters and information.
In particular, the "I love Man Yoo but could give a toss about Ireland cos their crap" attitude of some people in this country drives me mad but Im glad to see we dont seem to have them on this site.

The outside opinions of Montenegrin, E Green and the other NI is also welcome imo.

There is once or twice once i feel the mods have closed a topic a bit early, eg recently the Owen Coyle thread. Now I know it ran off topic for quite a while but these things tend to happen in any thread.

For any away games, you cant beat the fans forum for info. For Bari in particular. I agree with a few of the points raised above about dividing the posts into accomodation/flights etc etc......not sure if this is possible but maybe when you post info in an away game thread, if there was a box to tick to categorise the post into accomodation or flights or general etc.

[pineapple stu]

I agree with a few of the points raised above about dividing the posts into accomodation/flights etc etc......not sure if this is possible but maybe when you post info in an away game thread, if there was a box to tick to categorise the post into accomodation or flights or general etc.
Just going to start the threads now; it'll be a case of post in the right thread. Come back in ten minutes and have a look see...

Edit - and we're done (http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=119324) (granted, it took more than ten minutes...)

[billybunter]

In my humble opinion.

YBIG is like a beautiful girlfriend - she takes care of ones every need and can be counted on for a good time.

Foot.ie is like "a bit on the side". You get the itch to stop over once in a while, and 10 mins after you get there, you wonder that the fcuk you are doing..

IN fairness, the fact the mods on here are even asking for feedback is a massive step in the right direction, but for me it's YBIG all the way.

[theworm2345]

YBIG is like a beautiful girlfriend who cheated and caught AIDS - she took care of ones every need and could be counted on for a good time but can no longer be trusted though you still care for her (or at least some parts of her ;)).
Fixed :o

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, the fact the mods on here are even asking for feedback is a massive step in the right direction, but for me it's YBIG all the way.
In fairness, the mods here always welcome feedback. Neil just had the initiative to open a thread suggesting it, which highlighted it and speeded things up. Course, if your feedback is stupid, you'll get told so. ;)

[Junior]

Fixed :o

Jaysus worm what did they do to you? you sound like a women scorned.....:D

[theworm2345]

Jaysus worm what did they do to you? you sound like a women scorned.....:D
:confused: That doesn't really make sense because I don't know why a woman would have a beautiful girlfriend (well a lesbian but I assume thats not what you're implying)

http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p=1176564&postcount=77
Last little paragraph before the quote sums it up

[dahamsta]

In fairness, the mods here always welcome feedback.In fact we have a whole forum (http://foot.ie/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=63) dedicated to it. Unfortunately though, the Irish football community isn't brilliant on feeding back. Excellent at bitching, not so good on the feedback :)

[NeilMcD]

Basically if what comes out of it this is a more fun aspect to the fans forum full of banter and fans activity that woudl be great. In addition to that newcomers to the fans forum people who are obviously going to games but are not so au fait with the internet if they are welcomed by fans and by moderators and smart arse comments, (which I was guilty of to "beenthere" despite the fact the man has travelled all over for years supporting his country) are kept on hold are left out. I think this will have more effect than any re-formatting of the forum.

[Keen2win]

http://www.ybig.ie/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8204