Leaving Cert Debacle

[Magicme]

My sister had a nightmare exam today and possibly wont get to go to Edinburgh coz of that dumb fecker in Louth.

[dfclilywhite]

My sister had a nightmare exam today and possibly wont get to go to Edinburgh coz of that dumb fecker in Louth.

That dumb fecker taught me maths for 3 years. You'd think he'd be able to tell the difference between 1 and 2.

The only real difference between the original one and the backup was that Longley didn't come up. Then again he's the one I wanted to come up. Oh well.

[Sheridan]

The fact that an English exam was cancelled on these grounds just illustrates what's wrong with the examination system in this country.

[Magicme]

Sorry to hear that. I hope they take the added pressure and stress into account when marking it. My sister needs 1 A & 5 B's all at honours level to get into the course she wants in Edinburgh or Queens and despite busting her butt for years and being a smart cookie this is in jeopardy coz of this curve ball.

[DmanDmythDledge]

My sister had a nightmare exam today and possibly wont get to go to Edinburgh coz of that dumb fecker in Louth.
In all fairness while I feel sorry for her it's her own fault for taking a chance on what to learn, not because something didn't come up on the paper.


The fact that an English exam was cancelled on these grounds just illustrates what's wrong with the examination system in this country.
So you think it's ok that a lot of people knew what would be on the exam and have an unfair advantage over others who didn't?

[De Town]

That dumb fecker taught me maths for 3 years. You'd think he'd be able to tell the difference between 1 and 2.

The only real difference between the original one and the backup was that Longley didn't come up. Then again he's the one I wanted to come up. Oh well.

The 2 Macbeth questions were easier yesterday than on the original paper, which was nice! Also Montague came up as one of the poets, which was also nice from my point of view!

[dfclilywhite]

The 2 Macbeth questions were easier yesterday than on the original paper, which was nice! Also Montague came up as one of the poets, which was also nice from my point of view!

Didn't think anyone would study Montague, he wasn't really tipped to come up.

[Mr A]

This whole thing of predicting what will come up is a joke. If it's on the syllabus then you can't have any complaints.

[De Town]

Didn't think anyone would study Montague, he wasn't really tipped to come up.

Him or Bishop were my 2 preferences tbh. Was delighted when I saw his name!:D

[sligoman]

In all fairness while I feel sorry for her it's her own fault for taking a chance on what to learn, not because something didn't come up on the paper.Exactly, it's not the examiner's fault if she doesn't get the A/B she needs.

[Magicme]

Not saying that it is, but its his fault that the added stress has put more pressure on her and made the whole process even harder.

If he had had the balls to admit his mistake early in the day and they had the problem sorted, there wouldnt have been this added pressure.

[Rovers fan]

Not saying that it is, but its his fault that the added stress has put more pressure on her and made the whole process even harder.



It makes the whole process harder for everyone. It's a level playing field.

[Magicme]

Thats what I keep telling her but not sure if Edinburgh will take it into consideration.

[Bluebeard]

It makes the whole process harder for everyone. It's a level playing field.

But unfortunately that will only work if the LC is graded on a curve or if she wanted a place in an Irish uni. Her chances of progress are not in relation to the results of others - she has been set a specific set of criteria (1 A, 5 Bs) and regardless of what has happened. If the entirety of the county was stricken with smallpox, and all but four exams were cancelled, it isn't as though they'll say "Ah, sure you did better than the rest of them, come on anyhow" like under the CAO.

As it is, the damn thing is ungodly pressurised. The notion prevails that there is only one (two if you repeat the LC) to get your self in order and select a correct course to pursue a career for the rest of your life. That pressure at 16 or so, earlier if you want to take into account the selection of subjects for the LC, is ridiculous - most people I know had no idea of who they really are until their mid twenties or thereabouts, never mind what they want to do with that who. A moment like that last week increases the preposterous pressure though. Pearce referred to the "English" education system at the start of the 20th century as the Murder Machine. The current state of play in Ireland is much different, but is it any better?

It's a level playing field for anyone seeking admission to the Irish colleges and Unis now, alright. Anyone who is looking to Britain, or further afield, will have a few very nervous months ahead.

[Rovers fan]

But unfortunately that will only work if the LC is graded on a curve or if she wanted a place in an Irish uni. Her chances of progress are not in relation to the results of others - she has been set a specific set of criteria (1 A, 5 Bs) and regardless of what has happened. If the entirety of the county was stricken with smallpox, and all but four exams were cancelled, it isn't as though they'll say "Ah, sure you did better than the rest of them, come on anyhow" like under the CAO.



Not really sure what you mean but.... Say an exam is really hard, and you need a B in the subject. That exam was hard for everyone, and you are marked in comparsion to others, (approximately the same amount of A's, B's, C's etc are given in each subject each year) so your end mark won't be worsened. That happened in the accounting exam last year for example (it still fecked me over as one grade higher in it and I would have been a richer man:mad:). Similarly the whole debacle with English Paper Two will have put the same amount of strain on all students, but should not affect their results. Well, that's my way of looking at it anyway, though I could be wrong!

[Magicme]

But not everyone reacts to that kinda pressure the same way. Not everyone had History to look forward to a few days later and the saturday that was planned for last minute History revision was lost. This means that not only does she have the feeling that her English was a mess but now she is even more stressed about History where they have so many essays to learn off.

Anyways, as I keep reminding her, she can only do what she can in the exams and wherever she ends up going to college will be the best place for her. Fate always sends you where you are meant to go.

[Bluebeard]

What you describe is marking on the curve. I'm not suggesting you are wrong, as it is quite a while since the LC was something in my daily diet, but I am pretty sure that it was not measured in this way in my time.

The curve marking basis is surely a very bad idea and will in the long run only ensure that every generation is only considered against itself, and the successful student cannot fairly be compared to any other student of a different year as the results were weighted differently owing to a sudden outbreak of swine flu, or particularly bad weather or whatever else has occurred to influence the mark. In this way, it makes itself redundant as a method by which you can examine the various development of the student body as a whole, and therefore the ability of their teachers and the education system, or of rating and comparing a student's academic performance with others down through the years. It also suggests that strong advice could be given to have a higher curve, giving the impression that the standards are improving when in reality they are not.

More damnably, should it be the case that there are a fixed number of As, Bs and Cs awarded, there are two problems: Firstly, the issue with Mathematics, and other such subjects where it is entirely possible to have a perfect paper - how can you mark up or down someone who has clearly got a specific empirically proveable mark to accommodate the curve; and secondly, what about a particularly gifted year, where more people are entitled to their A, but some poor saps have to miss out owing to the glut of those before them.

I'd also suspect that it is almost impossible to operate such a strategy, given the number of markers that are - would telling several dozen people that they may only hand out a maximum number of As each in Spanish work? How would you estimate the correct number per marker? Should that figure remain static between the different markers or should you weight the number in favour of markers who are receiving papers from a particularly good school known for good marks in recent years, for instance, or should you ensure that the papers are mixed? It also suggests that there would have to be either a cap or a minimum on the number of failures too, and that is just as bad, if not worse, depending which way they play it.

No, the only fair way of marking is to mark the paper, and not the school or the generation - if it is not possible for everyone to pass or everyone to fail, based on the merits of their work, it somewhere along the line creates an artificial chasm in society where merit is potentially punished by timing.

And as regards strain, while it does put everyone in that exam in the same boat, it doesn't allow for how people take to strain: some thrive, others fold. I have little doubt that it has made no real difference to some, indeed perhaps given an advantage as some people will feel it far harder than others, and it could be the proverbial last straw.

Furthermore, I would be quite interested in terms of the impact on the other subjects than the immediate exam at hand - while it may seem a little difference, a lie-in (on?) on the Saturday was removed from some people who are about to face into a particularly rough week, while others may not have the same intensity ahead, and benefit already from a more dispersed timetable, and have that added to as they compete with some who have had a possible rest or study period deprived.

Don't get me wrong - I do not think that the current system, or the one in my day is right: I quote Pearce once more, and label it a Murder Machine. As it is, it treats people inadequately and unfairly, and even an excellent academic student can lose out by having poor handwriting, a three day migraine, a bout of some kind of illness, poor location in the exam hall, etc. It fails to take account of any of the other six or seven intelligence types, it creates a hugely traumatic fuss at an incredibly inopportune time in a person's development. On top of this it fails signally as a Leaving Certificate designed to mark the departure from Secondary education, as it has become of little more worth than a glorified nationalised entry exam to a world that has significant financial costs to progress towards, meaning that for some, it isn't even worthwhile to make an effort for it, as there is absolutely no hope of progressing.

[sligo23]

This whole thing of predicting what will come up is a joke. If it's on the syllabus then you can't have any complaints.
ohh fcuk off, such a ridiculous statment to make!! there is no way you could learn everything off in subjects like english, cop on!!

[Mr A]

The idea is meant to be that you get a general handle on things and then improvise rather than learn a bunch of stuff off.

[John83]

The idea is meant to be that you get a general handle on things and then improvise rather than learn a bunch of stuff off.
The failing is that the exam usually rewards people who don't do that.

I still believe that most people who complain because the exam brings up things which they didn't learn off need to die in a fire. You try to game the system and lose? Tough luck.

[stann]

The idea is meant to be that you get a general handle on things and then improvise rather than learn a bunch of stuff off.

In our LC English years ago a lot of the poets tipped to come up didn't, and I truly hated Hopkins so didn't study him either :o, so I was compelled to read a poem and interpret it from what it said, not what I remembered being told it said. The Planters Daughter it was, still remember it, was quite proud of my from-scratch interpretation too! :D Got a B honours in the old money, to the surprise of my English teacher, so I can only assume it worked.

[holidaysong]

My sister needs 1 A & 5 B's all at honours level to get into the course she wants in Edinburgh or Queens and despite busting her butt for years and being a smart cookie this is in jeopardy coz of this curve ball.

Magicme, when I was applying using the UCAS system a few years ago it was always the top 5 subjects they examined you on rather than the 6 used by the CAO. Have they now changed it across the board to 6 or is it just for that particular course? I'm sure your sister is unlikely to have made a mistake on this but it's worth double checking.

[strangeirish]

ohh fcuk off, such a ridiculous statment to make!! there is no way you could learn everything off in subjects like english, cop on!!
Shift key would be a good start though.

[Magicme]

The idea is meant to be that you get a general handle on things and then improvise rather than learn a bunch of stuff off.

Thats how it was in my day but it seems the teachers of the present are making them learn reams of stuff off. My sons Junior Cert English teacher has made them learn essays off by heart. Totally spoon fed them to them and told them to learn them. Has knocked all creativity and imagination out of my son.

[Magicme]

Magicme, when I was applying using the UCAS system a few years ago it was always the top 5 subjects they examined you on rather than the 6 used by the CAO. Have they now changed it across the board to 6 or is it just for that particular course? I'm sure your sister is unlikely to have made a mistake on this but it's worth double checking.

They gave her a specific requirement of 1 A & 5 B's for both Queens and Edinburgh.

[Calcio Jack]

My sister had a nightmare exam today and possibly wont get to go to Edinburgh coz of that dumb fecker in Louth.

was speaking with a teacher about this at the w/end, his comment was interesting : "...those kids don't realise how lucky they are because of the mess up the examiners will now mark the paper very easily...", so your sister should maybe cheer up.

A typical Irish solution to a problem.

[EAFC_rdfl]

But not everyone reacts to that kinda pressure the same way. Not everyone had History to look forward to a few days later and the saturday that was planned for last minute History revision was lost. This means that not only does she have the feeling that her English was a mess but now she is even more stressed about History where they have so many essays to learn off.

Anyways, as I keep reminding her, she can only do what she can in the exams and wherever she ends up going to college will be the best place for her. Fate always sends you where you are meant to go.

now fair enough it is a lot of added and un expected stress, but i dont get this point about losing last minute revision time. Surely what had been planned for saturday am in history could move to where english paper II was originally planned to be sat? It leaves the exact same amount of revision / studying done for both papers.

[pete]

Not sure how you can change the system to avoid a mistake by one person messing everything up. The more important thing it is there was an attempt to cover it up - Examinations board not inforrmed until late afternoon & not apparently from the person invloved. I presume that official will be removed from that position.

I have absolutely no doubt this has happened before but without mobiles & internet did not spread quickly enough & was more than likely covered up or just not investigated.

I don't get compliants about stress. Life is stressful from time to time so might as well get used to it. If someone wants to make the LC the most important exam of his/her life then so be it but you don't have to.

[Calcio Jack]

Slightly off topic... am amazed that the press haven't commented on the fact that the guy who made the mistake is a retired school teacher , in other words he's on a full pension .

I think it's wrong that a former public servant on a full pension can be given such work when we have so many unemployed who could do the job... same should apply to anyone working in count centres.... and while I'm on the subject teachers should not be allowed to run kids Summer camps... they either need 3 months holidays to recover from the stress of their job (well that's what they're always saying) or they don't.

On a more grand scale legislation should be enacted whereby any Civil or Public Servant once they've retired should have their pension redcuced by any earning they receive for other employment and capped at a €26k (the average industrial wage)

e.g A Gardai retires at age 50 on a pension of €38k per annum, he then gets a job earning €10k per annum, in that case he'd have his state pension reduced to €28k

or a hospital porter retires and is on a pension of €16k per annum, they get a job earning €10k pa ie a total of €26k , and in that case they keep their full €16k pension.

With so many on the dole I think the above is a fair and equitable way of ensuring that Public Servants do their bit in a fair manner

[SligoBrewer]

AAAAAAnyways back ontopic.

AT the time, I was fuming over this blip, but now I realise that it made sweet FA of a difference. We have the most horrible system of examination, in where the students are under such a ridiculous amount of time over 12 months. Whether its Grinds Schools advertising on the radio to the Supplements in the papers, one can't but help in being bombarded with "You must do well in your Leaving Cert or you are a failure" statements from society.

The recent blip put people off. They had timetables made out, and were rigidly sticking to them. The initial thought of having a paper which could have been made as a direct opposite to the paper which was leaked, coupled with the change in times threw a lot of people, myself included.

What I found was that I was so set in my way and in my train of thought, that the slightest off putting thing completely freaked me out. As it obviously did to Magicme's sister.

The system really does need to be changed. To ask people so young to sit the exams and to undergo the stress while they are still children is barbaric. The idea that students are judged on grades alone to get into college is nonsensical as well as the new "improved" entry into Medicine. What we need is a mixture between the CAO and the UCAS systems. One where you still remain as a number, but your whole personality and life experience should be taken into account.

[Bald Student]

The failing is that the exam usually rewards people who don't do that.

I still believe that most people who complain because the exam brings up things which they didn't learn off need to die in a fire. You try to game the system and lose? Tough luck.I don't think your second point is fair, the students do whatever their teacher tells them. It's the teacher who's gaming the system and, at that, they don't have a huge choice since they know their students are competing against others who are at it as well.

I agree with your first point though. The exam gives too much reward to rote learning. That's true in most subjects, not just english. I think history is the worst and (of the subjects I sat) technical drawing, applied maths and accountancy were the only ones where understanding the topic was more important that having huge chunks of knowledge memorised.

As it happens, the system suited me quite well. For whatever reason, I'm able to rote learn huge chunks of text and I managed to get a B in honours Irish despite not being able to put a sentence together in that language. But even at the time I was doing that, I knew I wasn't educating myself.

[pete]

It may not be right but University exams largely depend on ability to memorise facts so the LC prepares you well for that system. I am unsure what other criteria besides exam grades could be introduced - interviews would be subjective & would benefit people with connections. Likew it or not the current system is the fairest as everyone treated the same.

[SligoBrewer]

It may not be right but University exams largely depend on ability to memorise facts so the LC prepares you well for that system. I am unsure what other criteria besides exam grades could be introduced - interviews would be subjective & would benefit people with connections. Likew it or not the current system is the fairest as everyone treated the same.

Could you not have interviews but with a number system.
In the UK, you're interest in the subject via a personal statement as well as previous work experience and interviews are taken into account.
I can't see why the same couldn't be done here.

[thischarmingman]

To ask people so young to sit the exams and to undergo the stress while they are still children is barbaric.

Given the fact many, many children throughout the ages have done far harder and both more mentally and physically exhausting work at a much younger age, not to mention what we've learnt from the Ryan report, that hyperbole is rather unnecessary.


The failing is that the exam usually rewards people who don't do that.

I still believe that most people who complain because the exam brings up things which they didn't learn off need to die in a fire. You try to game the system and lose? Tough luck.

I think there's always going to be that element of 'playing the game,' no matter what system is used. I just accepted this when I was doing exams, either in secondary school or even at university as part of the system itself. If you gamble and it doesn't come off, that's the risk you take and I think many students, myself included, go into exmas knowing the risk they're taking full well.


In the UK, you're interest in the subject via a personal statement as well as previous work experience and interviews are taken into account.The personal statement isn't worth the paper it's written on. It's a necessary part of the application process but it's an open secret that noone is going to get accepted or rejected into a university of the basis of anything they've written on their personal statement. Unless maybe they've written it in crayon. :p

[holidaysong]

The personal statement isn't worth the paper it's written on. It's a necessary part of the application process but it's an open secret that noone is going to get accepted or rejected into a university of the basis of anything they've written on their personal statement. Unless maybe they've written it in crayon. :p

Exactly. At the end of the Day the only major benefit of the UCAS system over the CAO is it lets students know what grades they need to achieve before they sit the exams. With the CAO, you always have to just hope the points don't go up.

[Mr A]

Irish Times: Academics worried by 'spoon-fed' students (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0613/1224248768928.html)

Gotta say that in the year I spent teaching I was shocked by the inability of the students to think and reason independently.

[Bald Student]

Irish Times: Academics worried by 'spoon-fed' students (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0613/1224248768928.html)

Gotta say that in the year I spent teaching I was shocked by the inability of the students to think and reason independently.There's a lot of truth in what the man has to say but I think it's also trendy in academic circles to give out about the state of secondary education. The leaving cert is largely marked on a student's ability to memorise and repeat a curriculum but there are some academics here who go a step worse and mark students on their ability to memorise and repeat the academics' own opinions. Sometimes 'independent thinking' is used as a by-phrase for 'thinking the same way I do'.

I agree with what the man had to say here:

“I have a concern that, in response, too many of our academic departments at third level are responding to this learned behaviour, not by challenging it but by collaborating in it, even to the extent of worrying grade inflation. We need to seriously re-imagine key levels of our second-level system.”

[Magicme]

My poor sister has to do her physics exam in the morning thinking that one of her friends is stable in hospital when in fact she is just being kept alive so that her organs can be used.

Am devestated but have had to act all normal around her so that she doesnt twig that her friend is gone.

Puts silly worries about an English paper in perspective, a beautiful intelligent young lady wont be alive to get her results.

[pete]

There's a lot of truth in what the man has to say but I think it's also trendy in academic circles to give out about the state of secondary education. The leaving cert is largely marked on a student's ability to memorise and repeat a curriculum but there are some academics here who go a step worse and mark students on their ability to memorise and repeat the academics' own opinions. Sometimes 'independent thinking' is used as a by-phrase for 'thinking the same way I do'.

+1. Universities would want to look closer to home before they criticise the LC.

[passinginterest]

My poor sister has to do her physics exam in the morning thinking that one of her friends is stable in hospital when in fact she is just being kept alive so that her organs can be used.

Am devestated but have had to act all normal around her so that she doesnt twig that her friend is gone.

Puts silly worries about an English paper in perspective, a beautiful intelligent young lady wont be alive to get her results.

That really puts the whole thing in perspective, the leaving cert is hyped up to be this life changing exam when in the larger scheme of things it's totally insignificant. For one it can be repeated, secondly once you hit 24 you can study as a mature student, thirdly all the academic qualifications in the world won't get you anywhere without hard work and an aptitude for your chosen career.

I know I chose my leaving cert subjects as a 15 year old who thought he might want to do engineering in college, at 17 I did a PLC in Journalism at 18 I went to study English in college and by 22 I had decided I couldn't see myself being an engineer, a journalist, a teacher or an academic, so currently I'm a 26 year old civil servant who still really hope to become a professional footballer when he grows up.

I hope your sister gets all that she needs from her exams Magicme and I hope she can cope with the loss of her friend and go on to be a great success.

[Magicme]

She is already lucky, she can go to a college, may not be her 1st choice but at least she has a life in front of her. We are so blessed & yet we forget it sometimes & get wrapped up in notion of success when success is reaching your 80s having led a happy and fulfilling life. Nothing more.

[dfx-]

But a happy and worthwhile life in a job you don't like? Paying a 40 year mortgage on a house you can't really afford? Granted the LC standard now is very poor (certainly in my experience of Chemistry students coming into college), Leaving Cert results can play a major part in the ease of finding a worthwhile life...

[/playing devil's advocate :) ]

[Magicme]

Totally agree, part of the happy life is finding a job you love, but just coz you dont get on the course you want doesnt mean you wont find that job.

I would rather my kids were bums and happy than working as nuclear scientists and miserable. Sure I want them to do well, I want them to live up to their potential but I want more than anything for them to be happy.

[thischarmingman]

still really hope to become a professional footballer when he grows up.



Don't we all? :o

[Magicme]

Don't we all? :o

No, I want to be a gymnast or ballet dancer just like I wanted to be when I was 10. Despite 10 years of gymnastics and 3 years of dance, my dreams didnt come true.

That said, hard to beat my job. :D