Kiely walks out? strong rumour

[paul_oshea]

This could become a whole lot worse, and possibly even become a deciding factor in weighing up Traps tenure as Irish coach.

Or it could not and everyone forgets all about it and we see westwood in action against australia in august.

A week is a long time in football ;)

[paul_oshea]

Makes one wonder, did westwood only tell Trap that he wouldn't be available after team selection/game....

[ifk101]

Makes one wonder, did westwood only tell Trap that he wouldn't be available after team selection/game....

According to the papers, they knew a month in advance of the Nigeria game.

[EalingGreen]

Difference is that Dean Kiely want's to play for his country but is not picked where as Stephen Ireland would be picked for his country but does not want to play.

Wanting to play for your country is something should go without saying, not be a deciding factor in team selection (imo).
Moreover, it is missing the point, since if you think about it, Kiely is not just saying he wants to play for ROI, but that he also (effectively) wants to pick himself for his country.
In which case, he is implying he knows better what is right for ROI than his manager. Which might be forgiveable when it's a novice manager e.g. like Staunton, but is anyone seriously saying that Kiely knows more about preparing an international team for competition than Trap?

As I see it, Kiely had other options which he might have chosen to deal with Trap's selection policy.
For instance, he might have made it clear that he only wants to be considered if he is the clear No.2 to Given. And if Trap indicated that that this was now in doubt (due to Westwood's emergence), then it was open to Kiely to "semi-retire" from international football i.e. no longer wishes to be considered for selection, but will pull on the gloves again in an emergency.

Alternatively, he could easily have stayed with the squad and seen how it worked out. For example, Given might have sustained an injury, or Westwood have a howler, in which case he would be right back in contention.

Or, on the basis that he only had to travel to London, not Lagos, to sit on the bench, he might have put up with it, then gone to Trap after the game and said that he was retiring from international football, on the basis that he didn't feel he should be 3rd choice behind a relative novice like Westwood.

In any case, agreeing to a call-up, then walking out midway when you don't get your way, is totally unprofessional (imo).

P.S. There is one further possibility which might justify Kiely's fit of pique, namely, if Trap had been less than honest about his intentions for him when calling Kiely up. However, I doubt that is the case, since if Trap is that devious, in knowing that Westwood wasn't available for Sofia, he might easily have left Westwood out entirely at Craven Cottage and called up Kiely as clear No.2, with someone like Doyle just called up for the ride.
Or, he might have mollified Kiely by giving him his way, then when Sofia was out the way, Trap could have replaced Kiely with Westwood as No.2 to Given and let him (Kiely) p1ss off in a huff if he wanted.

[ifk101]

I think you're jumping the gun there EG.

Shay was an injury doubt prior to the game. The squad obviously knew Westwood would miss the Bulgaria game. Somebody put 2 and 2 together and whispered in Kiely's ear that he would be getting his game.

[Jicked]

Very unprofessional of Kiely to walk out in the middle of the double-header, but for me the blame lies with Shay Given. The man is clearly obsessed with winning as many caps as he possibly can, which would be great, if he could do it without jeopardising the overall well-being of the squad. Roy Keane alluded to the fact Given put pressure on the management and FAI to be included in every game he travels for, and this has led to the farcical situation whereby we haven't had any sort of an experienced goalkeeper for years now. It cost us in the last campaign when we suddenly had to chuck in Wayne Henderson (who?) and may cost us again this time. Demanding to be included (we can only presume it was at his insistence that he played) in a friendly, a week before a vital qualifier when he has a knock, is very experienced at international level and with this team, and when Kiely needed game time after not playing a huge amount as well as needing to get back in the groove of playing with Ireland is a ludicrous decision.

[NeilMcD]

A lot of presumptions there about Shay Given with no facts. Shay Given is a legend of a goalkeeper and always comes across as a nice man too. I think speculation about his character and his motives and actions within the squad are not really credible or fair.

[John83]

I'm also disinclined to take character assassinations from Keane at face value.

[EalingGreen]

I think you're jumping the gun there EG.

Shay was an injury doubt prior to the game. The squad obviously knew Westwood would miss the Bulgaria game. Somebody put 2 and 2 together and whispered in Kiely's ear that he would be getting his game.

Unless it was Trap whispered in his ear, then Kiely should know better than to listen to gossip and speculation.

And in any case, walking out mid-trip was still unprofessional and disrespectful (imo).

[geysir]

A lot of presumptions there about Shay Given with no facts. Shay Given is a legend of a goalkeeper and always comes across as a nice man too. I think speculation about his character and his motives and actions within the squad are not really credible or fair.
Not only not credible but uninformed immature speculation.
If Shay wants a half a game to test his sharpness before an important qualifier then so be it.

[Jicked]

Yes there are a lot of assumptions made but there's not a lot of avoiding that. Fact is Given, a very nice man I agree, has under numerous different managers always been included in friendly games we all know we don't need to see him in. The fact this has happened under numerous managers, all of whom you'd imagine would have liked to be able develop a subsitute keeper a bit more, for me adds weight to the rumours circulating from ex-players and in the media (just today the Irish Times reported that Kiely supposedly fell out with Given over Given denying chances to other keepers).

Shay needs to be told that from now on the squad strength in depth, and squad harmony is crucial, and will be helped hugely by him sitting out games such as Nigeria so we can develop some sort of experienced #2 keeper, which is vital considering Shay is now 33 and has had his share of injury trouble recently.

[DmanDmythDledge]

No way can you say it was the 100% correct decision given that Westwood isn't even available for Sofia!

This makes Trap's decision all the more mind boggling.
As I've said he needs to get a look at the fringe players when he gets the chance. When the next friendly comes around Westwood could be unavailable. I stand by my opinion that Trap needed to see how Westwood will do playing for Ireland.


I think you're jumping the gun there EG.

Shay was an injury doubt prior to the game. The squad obviously knew Westwood would miss the Bulgaria game. Somebody put 2 and 2 together and whispered in Kiely's ear that he would be getting his game.
Are you not jumping the gun by saying somebody whispered in Kiely's ear? All we know is that Kiely and Trap had a discussion, which resulted in Kiely leaving the squad and Trap suggesting that he will need somebody else for the Bulgaria game. Nobody here knows if anything at all was said to Kiely in the lead up to this, or what was said in this discussion.

[EalingGreen]

Very unprofessional of Kiely to walk out in the middle of the double-header, but for me the blame lies with Shay Given. The man is clearly obsessed with winning as many caps as he possibly can, which would be great, if he could do it without jeopardising the overall well-being of the squad.
Personally, I've always admired players who want to play in every international possible.


Roy Keane alluded to the fact Given put pressure on the management and FAI to be included in every game he travels for, and this has led to the farcical situation whereby we haven't had any sort of an experienced goalkeeper for years now. It cost us in the last campaign when we suddenly had to chuck in Wayne Henderson (who?) and may cost us again this time.
Assuming Keane's account is reliable, then if Given's stance has caused problems for the team, then that is the fault of the management, in giving in to player power.
In fact if you think about it, Given's insistence on being 1st choice is little different from Kiely's (apparent) insistence on being 2nd choice, except that Given's case is unarguable, whereas Kiely's is much less so (age, inactivity, alternatives).


Demanding to be included (we can only presume it was at his insistence that he played) in a friendly, a week before a vital qualifier when he has a knock, is very experienced at international level and with this team, and when Kiely needed game time after not playing a huge amount as well as needing to get back in the groove of playing with Ireland is a ludicrous decision.Thin end of the wedge.
Football is littered with players whose "demands" have been acceded to on the grounds of "desperation" etc. Invariably, however, those same players have repaid such consideration with selfishness and contempt. We had one up in NI with Roy Carroll, and (I suspect) your equivalent was Stephen Ireland.
OK, Kiely may not be anywhere near those two but if nothing else, when Kiely is seen to get away with it, it risks lesser players concluding that they can start making demands, too.
You reap what you sow...

[EalingGreen]

Fact is Given, a very nice man I agree, has under numerous different managers always been included in friendly games we all know we don't need to see him in. The fact this has happened under numerous managers, all of whom you'd imagine would have liked to be able develop a subsitute keeper a bit more, for me adds weight to the rumours circulating from ex-players and in the media (just today the Irish Times reported that Kiely supposedly fell out with Given over Given denying chances to other keepers).

Shay needs to be told that from now on the squad strength in depth, and squad harmony is crucial, and will be helped hugely by him sitting out games such as Nigeria so we can develop some sort of experienced #2 keeper, which is vital considering Shay is now 33 and has had his share of injury trouble recently.
If Kiely has fallen out with Given, then that is something for Trap to sort out. Now I personally doubt that Trap is so weak as to be unable or unwilling to put Given right on this score (always playing etc).
That said, I'll admit that should it be the case, Kiely would be entitled to withdraw his services - but still only after the game, not a day or two before it.

Unprofessional.

[paul_oshea]

What will be interesting to see, is, if westwood as given has predicted, is taking his place in 2 years time will given happily revert to being no.2? And more importantly will he stay around.

I think given and dunne being a solid spine for the 3 new backs on show in fulham made perfect sense, those first 45 minutes would need a re-assuring voice behind you to start you off in your trek into international football. I still would have liked to see kiely get a half though. Whats 2 months to wait to try out westwood?

[NeilMcD]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2007/0327/ireland1.html

Just for the record Keanes views. They are not fact just his views.

[Jicked]

Personally, I've always admired players who want to play in every international possible.


As do I, much like it's admirable to see the player who was picked up a serious knock struggle on valiantly and not want to be subsituted in the hope he can do something for the team. But in certain occasions you need to take that player off, and in our current situation, without a second choice goalkeeper who has played more than a handful of games, we need to say 'thanks but no thanks Shay', bench him for a meaningless game, especially when he has a knock.

And yes, I know they are just Roy Keane's views. But there's other evidence to suggest there may be something else to it (what possibly explanation for playing Given on Friday when he has a knock that could flare up, and hasn't trained fully before the game?), meanwhile today's Times reports Kiely has similar problems with Givens as Roy Keane did. Of course it's not fact or an open and shut case, but it'd be just as silly to dismiss it as completely false.

[NeilMcD]

There is no evidence that Kiely has a problem with Given. There are not quotes from him on this issue. Its just journalistic speculation in relation to this.

[Jicked]

its a bit naive to think that since there are no quotes from Kiely that there's no substance to it, especially when the Times are usually very reliable on what goes on inside the Irish camp and often break the big stories. It would be highly unusual for Kiely to go on the record about anything like that even if that is exactly what he thought.

[geysir]

But there's other evidence to suggest there may be something else to it (what possibly explanation for playing Given on Friday when he has a knock that could flare up, and hasn't trained fully before the game?), meanwhile today's Times reports Kiely has similar problems with Givens as Roy Keane did. Of course it's not fact or an open and shut case, but it'd be just as silly to dismiss it as completely false.
You are writing nonsense Jicked.
Trap is the manager not Given.
Trap's decision to play Given who said he needed a game to test his sharpness before the big game. Given is the consummate top class pro and I would not presume to know what he needs to do in order to prepare himself for this upcoming game.

Trap decided to cap Westwood and not give Kiely a deserved 45mins
Much and all as I really sympathesise with Kiely, Trap has his reasons.
So far, Trap's reasons, even the ones that appeared bizarre, have all turned out to be quite rational.

[Stuttgart88]

Colin Doyle & Wayne Henderson both called up.

How many first team games has each played this season? Has Henderson played at all? I think Doyle only played when Taylor was suspended, or in Carling Cup.

Industrial sized portions of cotton wool to be sent to Shay's minders in the Irish camp asap.

[Jicked]

Doyle has such a fantastic build for a keeper its such a pity he's, well, a bit crap by all accounts.
Wayne Henderson didn't impress me a single bit when he came in last year and as far as I know spent this year on loan at Grimsby Town. I'm not one for thinking every player in the League of Ireland can suddenly slot in to the team and do a job for us, but in this situation I'd have taken either of the Murphys (despite Brian's poor form) over Henderson, and maybe Doyle as well.

[Jicked]

How many first team games has each played this season? Has Henderson played at all?
.


According to Wiki he has 14 appearances on loan at Grimsby Town. In League Two. Where they finished 22nd. Paddy Kenny and a few League of Ireland players have a right to feel aggrieved at the decision. Lets just hope he doesn't have to be called upon.

[geysir]

Does Paddy Kenny even want to play for Ireland?


People make such a big hulaballoo about weddings, especially some footballers. I can understand that he has been led by the nose on this one. If only the poor fécker knew what it was going to be like in 15 years, he would be on the plane to Bulgaria praying for Shay to break a leg.

[tetsujin1979]

How many first team games has each played this season? Has Henderson played at all? I think Doyle only played when Taylor was suspended, or in Carling Cup.
Colin Doyle: http://www.chatsoccer.net/irishabroad/playerDetails.xquery?playerID=38296&seasonID=138
just 3 starts, and one introduction
I posted in the end of season stats that he remained on the bench more than any other player this season, 40 times!

Wayne Henderson: http://www.chatsoccer.net/irishabroad/playerDetails.xquery?playerID=27006
14 starts, all on loan at Grimsby from Preston
5 wins, 3 draws and losses

[dr_peepee]

Doyle has such a fantastic build for a keeper its such a pity he's, well, a bit crap by all accounts. .

Wasn't Doyle Birminghams first choice over Taylor last time they got promoted and started as first choice that season in the Premiership??? Think he just lost his head a bit and Taylor got in and has retained it since. He's still young and Taylors getting on so Birmingham for the next year or two might be the best place for him..

[gwhite]

[QUOTE=geysir;1170499]Does Paddy Kenny even want to play for Ireland?


I believe he does. He quit the squad for a time after 5-2 in Cyprus because his marriage was failing and didn't someone try to bite his face off in a chip shop or something? Anyway, I'm pretty sure he declared himself available for selection again while Stan was still in charge.

[tetsujin1979]

I had a look in the Irish Abroad database and whipped up this table to show the goalkeepers in England and Scotland performed this season.
It's a list of their starts, how many goals they conceded, ordered by how many they conceded per game
Turns out Henderson and Doyle weren't bad choices, statistically speaking


Home Away Total Conceded
Player Name Starts Conceded Starts Conceded Starts Conceded Per Game
Colin Doyle 0 0 3 2 3 2 0.67
Wayne Henderson 7 3 7 10 14 13 0.93
Paddy Kenny 24 22 25 25 49 47 0.96
Dean Brill 13 16 12 10 25 26 1.04
David Forde 29 28 27 37 56 65 1.16
Kieran Westwood 25 28 24 32 49 60 1.22
Joe Murphy 24 22 28 44 52 66 1.27
Barry Roche 25 28 27 39 52 67 1.29
Darren Randolph 6 4 10 17 16 21 1.31
Robert Elliot 14 19 12 18 26 37 1.42
Shay Given 23 30 24 39 47 69 1.47
Dean Kiely 2 3 2 3 4 6 1.5
Graham Stack 3 5 3 4 6 9 1.5
Shane Supple 3 5 3 4 6 9 1.5
Conrad Logan 17 27 19 32 36 59 1.64
Rene Gilmartin 6 10 5 10 11 20 1.82


Note, these results don't contain the season stats for Andy McNulty (Inverness Caley Thistle, on loan at Elgin) because I don't record Scottish Third Division games

[SwanVsDalton]

I would've thought Joe Murphy was a more obvious choice than either of those two. Not his biggest fan but there's something to be said for playing week in, week out for a successful side (not to mention being voted League One Goalie of the year).

[Razors left peg]

Colin Doyle & Wayne Henderson both called up.

How many first team games has each played this season? Has Henderson played at all? I think Doyle only played when Taylor was suspended, or in Carling Cup.

Industrial sized portions of cotton wool to be sent to Shay's minders in the Irish camp asap.

Is Westwood out injured now???

[Stuttgart88]

Earth calling Razor....are you there Razor?

[Stuttgart88]

Wasn't Doyle Birminghams first choice over Taylor last time they got promoted and started as first choice that season in the Premiership??? Think he just lost his head a bit and Taylor got in and has retained it since. He's still young and Taylors getting on so Birmingham for the next year or two might be the best place for him..Exactly. He was actually instrumental at the tail end of the previous promotion season. Kept his place and was at fault for 2 goals in the 3-2 defeat at Chelsea. He was fouled following a great save in the next game vs. Sunderland I think, but the referee incorrectly allowed a goal from the rebound. I think Taylor resumed duty shortly afterwards.

He has a build any keeper would kill for alright but I often feel having seen him that he could be doing better. Great saves, great catches, then a soft goal.

Thanks Tets, I hadn't realised Henderson was out on loan.

[carloz]

I had a look in the Irish Abroad database and whipped up this table to show the goalkeepers in England and Scotland performed this season.
It's a list of their starts, how many goals they conceded, ordered by how many they conceded per game
Turns out Henderson and Doyle weren't bad choices, statistically speaking


Home Away Total Conceded
Player Name Starts Conceded Starts Conceded Starts Conceded Per Game
Colin Doyle 0 0 3 2 3 2 0.67
Wayne Henderson 7 3 7 10 14 13 0.93
Paddy Kenny 24 22 25 25 49 47 0.96
Dean Brill 13 16 12 10 25 26 1.04
David Forde 29 28 27 37 56 65 1.16
Kieran Westwood 25 28 24 32 49 60 1.22
Joe Murphy 24 22 28 44 52 66 1.27
Barry Roche 25 28 27 39 52 67 1.29
Darren Randolph 6 4 10 17 16 21 1.31
Robert Elliot 14 19 12 18 26 37 1.42
Shay Given 23 30 24 39 47 69 1.47
Dean Kiely 2 3 2 3 4 6 1.5
Graham Stack 3 5 3 4 6 9 1.5
Shane Supple 3 5 3 4 6 9 1.5
Conrad Logan 17 27 19 32 36 59 1.64
Rene Gilmartin 6 10 5 10 11 20 1.82


Note, these results don't contain the season stats for Andy McNulty (Inverness Caley Thistle, on loan at Elgin) because I don't record Scottish Third Division games

Ah for gods sake, get with it tetsujin, we all know Andy McNulty is the future of Irish goalkeeping;)

[DmanDmythDledge]

Is Westwood out injured now???
No, he kinda has to get married that day.

[Closed Account]

I would've thought Joe Murphy was a more obvious choice than either of those two. Not his biggest fan but there's something to be said for playing week in, week out for a successful side (not to mention being voted League One Goalie of the year).
I think he's unavailable because he's on holidays.:confused:

[rambler14]

What is the point of calling up two keepers who can't even remember what goalposts look like?
But they were probably the only two not on holidays!

[Drumcondra 69er]

I would've thought Joe Murphy was a more obvious choice than either of those two. Not his biggest fan but there's something to be said for playing week in, week out for a successful side (not to mention being voted League One Goalie of the year).

I would have thought Paddy Kenny was the obvious choice, he's played regulalry in a relatively sucessful side, has Premier League experience and is undoubtedly better then Henderson or Doyle at present. According to the Indo this morning he was sounded out, said he was available but was overlooked when Henderson cancelled his holidays.

Now, fair play for Henderson for making the effort but it staggers me that Kenny can be considered behind both of those (and possibly Joe Murphy) in the pecking order, it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[Den Perry]

I would have thought Paddy Kenny was the obvious choice, he's played regulalry in a relatively sucessful side, has Premier League experience and is undoubtedly better then Henderson or Doyle at present. According to the Indo this morning he was sounded out, said he was available but was overlooked when Henderson cancelled his holidays.

Now, fair play for Henderson for making the effort but it staggers me that Kenny can be considered behind both of those (and possibly Joe Murphy) in the pecking order, it makes no sense to me whatsoever.


agree 100%

[EalingGreen]

Exactly. He was actually instrumental at the tail end of the previous promotion season. Kept his place and was at fault for 2 goals in the 3-2 defeat at Chelsea. He was fouled following a great save in the next game vs. Sunderland I think, but the referee incorrectly allowed a goal from the rebound. I think Taylor resumed duty shortly afterwards.

He has a build any keeper would kill for alright but I often feel having seen him that he could be doing better. Great saves, great catches, then a soft goal.

http://www.bcfc.com/page/ProfilesDetail/0,,10412~30116,00.html

Having joined Brum as a 16 year old in 2001, Doyle had a couple of brief loans at Millwall and Forest, before breaking into the Birmingham team in the 2006/07 Season.
Iirc, this was in the New Year, following a dip in form by Taylor. Doyle went on to finish the Season as 1st choice, as Brum won promotion back to the EPL.
I think he may then have played the opening couple of games next season, as you say, but Taylor was soon back in and played virtually the whole of the 2007/08 Relegation season, plus the 2008/09 Promotion season (just ended) as 1st choice.

As for next season, the omens don't look good for either keeper, esp Doyle. Apparently McLeish wants to sign Joe Hart from Man.City. M.City rate Hart, so will only consider a season-long loan, and then only if Brum pay a £1m loan fee on top!

If this comes off, there's no way I can see the Brum Board agreeing to pay £25k per week to M.City, plus Hart's wages, unless he's guaranteed to play regularly. In which case, I could see the 38 year old Taylor being the experienced back-up, with Doyle being somewhat "out in the cold" at St. Andrews.

Indeed, the local paper is saying that McLeish wants to loan Doyle back out to a Championship side (possibly with a clause saying he can recall him should Hart or Taylor get injured?):
http://www.sundaymercury.net/midlands-sport/birmingham-city-fc/birmingham-city-fc-news/2009/05/24/birmingham-city-boss-alex-mcleish-on-alert-as-target-joe-hart-seeks-loan-deal-66331-23698149/

P.S. From what I saw of Taylor last season, he was playing better than ever - for NI, at least.

[elroy]

I would have thought Paddy Kenny was the obvious choice, he's played regulalry in a relatively sucessful side, has Premier League experience and is undoubtedly better then Henderson or Doyle at present. According to the Indo this morning he was sounded out, said he was available but was overlooked when Henderson cancelled his holidays.

Now, fair play for Henderson for making the effort but it staggers me that Kenny can be considered behind both of those (and possibly Joe Murphy) in the pecking order, it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I read in one of the papers over the weekend (sindo i think) that it was very likely that Paddy Kenny would not answer a call up to the squad, therefore, Doyle, Henderson and Murphy were the three options. It didnt really provide any basis for this conclusion.

[dr_peepee]

I would've thought Joe Murphy was a more obvious choice than either of those two. Not his biggest fan but there's something to be said for playing week in, week out for a successful side (not to mention being voted League One Goalie of the year).


Think it's the second time he's won that too..

[DmanDmythDledge]

What is the point of calling up two keepers who can't even remember what goalposts look like?
But they were probably the only two not on holidays!
Henderson has filled in adequately for us in the past. I have no problems with him being in the squad.

[an_ceannaire]

Anyone else agree? Great Keeper yes, Selfish Git, also, yes. I would think Kiely would have very little time for him. Couldnt blame him either. As I said, Great Keeper but putting personal goal before team welfare.

[Brendan 82]

Blasphemy

[Duggie]

nah it shud be up to trap to say who starts in goal. he could have said no shay ur sitting this one out but he didnt.

[Stuttgart88]

Anyone else agree? Great Keeper yes, Selfish Git, also, yes. I would think Kiely would have very little time for him. Couldnt blame him either. As I said, Great Keeper but putting personal goal before team welfare.I can see why there'd be tension between the two but if Shay says he wanted game time to sharpen up after an injury then fine. Also, if St. Ledger & Dunne do start together in Sofia I think it'll be useful to have had that important GK-CB-CB unit having had game time together.

[Stuttgart88]

[url]P.S. From what I saw of Taylor last season, he was playing better than ever - for NI, at least.Agree. A good example was when they played that crucial game against Wolves at St. Andrews - he exuded calmness & authority while the young Wayne Hennessy flapped and made poor decisions at important times*. Taylor barely had a save to make but as we all know, just having authority and doing the bread & butter stuff well is invaluable.

I thought Taylor looked a bit rooted to the spot when Preston equalised Keith Fahey's goal, a shot from distance that he didn't read well / move his feet well for. Good keeper though.

*this could be a liability for Wolves in the EPL. Kiely could be a useful acquisition for Mick in this regard. A steady start defensively will be important for them.

[Greenforever]

Anyone else agree? Great Keeper yes, Selfish Git, also, yes. I would think Kiely would have very little time for him. Couldnt blame him either. As I said, Great Keeper but putting personal goal before team welfare.


Trap picks the team, nobody else.....and to call Shay a selfish git is the most ignorant post Ive seen in a long time. Shay is a true professional who never fails to turn up for duty and is proud to play for his country

[geysir]

Best to ignore that troll.

[Razors left peg]

Earth calling Razor....are you there Razor?
In my defense Im stuck in the arse end of Sweden and havent been able to get online much lately so that news passed me by...Im just praying at this stage I get to see the game on saturday
It does make the decision to play Westwood ahead of Kiely against Nigeria now look completely stupid though