Voting on 22 League current state.

[Estar]

Have people heard how teams will vote?


Looking good for the yes votes:D

Shelbourne
Bohemians
Cork City
Longford Town
St Patricks Athletic
Waterford United
Shamrock Rovers
Drogheda United
Derry City
UCD
Dublin City
Bray Wanderers - YES
Finn Harps - YES
Limerick FC
Kildare County FC - YES
Sligo Rovers - YES
Galway United - YES
Cobh Ramblers
Athlone Town
Dundalk
Monaghan United
Kilkenny City

It could go down to what teams want to vote themselves into junior soccer.



:eek:

[max power]

i say no, our club has worked very hard to get where we are, why should other teams just come up because of a simple vote, a 12 team league with 2 new teams a elected to the league into division one.

[Xlex]

Let's make the premier a 12 team league and the first a 10 team league and see if they complain.

12 team first division makes sure teams are ready to come up because of a better standard... I'd say longford will be a no vote.

[max power]

lets start of 04 in a strange way, i agree with xlex

[Ringo]

of course First division sides will vote for it. but if they can't get in by winning , how would they survive in it.

[Xlex]

you should fúcking vote for it too, for if you didn't it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.... your not one of the big guy's yet so don't get your hopes up... :rolleyes:

the lower first division clubs would also be spelling immediate danger for themselves if they go near this proposal...

either spend to make the top 16 in the first two seasons or resign themselves to junior football.... no way...


I can see this proposal being hammered... 12 team league may just make it but at the end of the day, without agreement of at least 6 premier sides Bray's bull**** won't see the light of day...


can propose anymore bull**** reasons to change something which hasn't even been marketed right without anywhaere between 7 - 10 junior clubs being interested... and that won't happen. you need promotion & relegation, you need two divisions... and a 10 and a 12 make more sence that a 12 and a 10 setup...

[Xlex]

Shelbourne - No
Bohemians - No
Cork City - No
Longford Town - Maybe
St Patricks Athletic - No
Waterford United - Maybe
Shamrock Rovers - No
Drogheda United - No
Derry City - Maybe
UCD - Maybe
Dublin City - Yes
Bray Wanderers - YES
Finn Harps - YES
Limerick FC - Maybe
Kildare County FC - YES
Sligo Rovers - YES
Galway United - YES
Cobh Ramblers - No
Athlone Town - No
Dundalk - No
Monaghan United - No
Kilkenny City - No

[Xlex]

11 No
05 Maybes, majority will be No votes
06 yes, from clubs who don't want to earn the right...

[pineapple stu]

I can't see us going for it.

[Estar]

I'd say Dundalk could be a YES.

[parnell ranger]

Our chairman has come out against it, we're not ready.

[max power]

ha ha will yee ever be ready

[pete]

IMO this is the most ludicrous discussion inside the eL in all my years supporting it.

1. Proposed by annual yoyo club after its own self interest.

2. No facts about what is being proposed - 22 team league for 1 or 2 seasons? what happens at end of 22 league? What size will the future premier league be? will there be a 1st division?

:rolleyes:

[Schumi]

The proposal needs a 2/3s majority to pass so 15 out of the 22 would have to vote in favour.

[Xlex]

Originally posted by Estar
I'd say Dundalk could be a YES.
aye and if they don't make the 16 team cut as they wouldn't currently, they're playing Junior teams...

[Xlex]

Originally posted by Schumi
The proposal needs a 2/3s majority to pass so 15 out of the 22 would have to vote in favour.

and it will never pass... have to agree there....

[max power]

i hope they have to put up there hands when voting, cause yes would be a very big word for the Drogs reps to write down so they would try to write down no, but it would be on and that would be one spoiled vote.

[Estar]

God forbid Longford could finish 17th:D

[max power]

how can we finish 17th in a 10 team division ???? it will never come about

[Estar]

Devo will propose a vote to relegate Longford and promote Bray:D ;)

[brendy_éire]

Lads, it's not happening. The motion won't even get half the votes, never mind 2/3.
Best we can hope for is a 12 team Premier.

[Éanna]

can't see it working. its self-serving and short-sighted on Bray's part

[Breifne]

Originally posted by Xlex

06 yes, from clubs who don't want to earn the right...

I'm appalled that you have included Dublin City in this number, Dublin City earned the right fair and square last season, winning the first division championship, and I think Longford can appreciate when a club drags itself up by the coat tails.

Longford were regulars in the bottom half of the first division less than five years ago. Just because you won the FAI Cup this season, doesn't automatically make you world beaters.

Dublin City, in their previous guises, had struggled, but with the huge effort put in by all involved with the club over the last eleven / twelve months, they have earned their right to mix with the top levels of Irish Soccer.

Whether we have the players and the management team to stay up is the next question, I personally think the club are taking the right approach, and having signed seven quality players so far, we are going to give it our best shot.

I respect Longford Town, and what they have accomplished, and I think every single club in the league (and even the top levels of Intermediate / Junior football) should be trying to emulate their achievement.

They have come out of a largely GAA dominated area, and brought crowds, players and one of the best stadiums in the league.

but I would also like to remind you of a couple of years ago. We have a good young manager, great back room team, excellent chairman, some experienced campaigners & a good enthuasiast squad. We know its going to be tough to stay up, but each and every person in the club is determined to give everything in order to do so, without breaking the bank.

All we ask is that you give us a couple of games in the premier division, if after ten games we are rooted to the bottom of the league, fire ahead, but don't judge us until you have seen us.

[Éanna]

Originally posted by Breifne
I'm appalled that you have included Dublin City in this number, Dublin City earned the right fair and square last season, winning the first division championship
I think a certain referee might have had something to do with it. No way Dublin City were the best team in that division, they got the results and its hard to argue with that, but IMO, having seen 15-20 games in the first division last season Bray or Harps would have stood a much better chance of survival in the premier than continuity home farm

[Breifne]

Originally posted by Éanna
I think a certain referee might have had something to do with it. No way Dublin City were the best team in that division, they got the results and its hard to argue with that, but IMO, having seen 15-20 games in the first division last season Bray or Harps would have stood a much better chance of survival in the premier than continuity home farm

Anyone who has read my posts over the last month or so will acknowledge that I accept that in pure footballing ability both Harps and Bray were in a better class, but unfortunately its results that count in this game, and City got the breaks, and collected more points than either of their two main rivals.

I don't accept blaming the referee as an excuse to say that City shouldn't have won the league, refereeing errors or mistakes have a tendancy to balance out over the course of a 33 game season, and there were plenty of games earlier in the season, when we have good penalty appeals turned down, (which had they been converted, would have ensured the extra point, which would have rendered the final game with bray irrelevant). So I'm sure each and every person can remember incidents from the season, both good and bad on behalf of referees.

I don't think any referee ever sets out to be biased towards any particular team, referees can make mistakes, and do regularly, but at the end of the day, referees have become the scapegoat for missed opportunities in too many cases.

[TommyT]

In fairness the smaller clubs rammed through a ridiculous league Cup proposal about 8 years ago and backed off when the bigger clubs threatened to withdraw from the league, if it comes to it this won't happen unless a few of the major clubs agree to it.

[dortie]

Cant understand why someone has put Derry in the 'Maybe' camp.........I am personally totally against a 22 team league........too big........non competitive matches......clubs who will never meet UEFA guidelines.........stupid ass 'relegation to junior football' idea for bottom 6.
Most decisions our board make are put to the supporters first these days and I can assure you from our messageboard and fans i know we are against the idea.

I personally want to go back to 12 teams in the premier maybe even 16.........but we need a first division regardless for competition.

[Xlex]

Originally posted by Breifne
I'm appalled that you have included Dublin City in this number, Dublin City earned the right fair and square last season, winning the first division championship, and I think Longford can appreciate when a club drags itself up by the coat tails.

I'm including you in the number but not in the statement, because you have earned the right to be in the Premier division, it's a little obvious that it dosen't include youse...

But it should, that mutant Seery threatened High court action a couple seasons ago over a non-runner and cost Longford Town the best part of €20,000 in an extended season.... so up yours....

best of luck next season.... straight back down

[Xlex]

Originally posted by dortie
Cant understand why someone has put Derry in the 'Maybe' camp

sorry, Dortie.... but I put us in the 'Maybe' camp too, really trying to strike some balance....It's seams to be a non-starter...

[Colm]

Originally posted by pete
IMO this is the most ludicrous discussion inside the eL in all my years supporting it.

1. Proposed by annual yoyo club after its own self interest.

2. No facts about what is being proposed - 22 team league for 1 or 2 seasons? what happens at end of 22 league? What size will the future premier league be? will there be a 1st division?

I think all that sums it up really. It's a ridiculous idea, in fact having anything bigger than a 10 team premier in the foreseeable future would be a disaster for the el imo.

[Éanna]

the 10 team premier IS a disaster. the quality of football has improved, but that was happening anyway, so it has not had any real positive effects IMO

[A face]

Originally posted by Éanna
the 10 team premier IS a disaster


Why so because ??

[Éanna]

Why?
1. It has not improved crowds for the majority of clubs.
2. It has not made any improvement on the financial side of things (if anything its worse)
3. The league has not become significantly more competitive.
4. Its led to the league just about becoming the dublin and district league.
5. It has not made any signficant improvement to the quality of football, which IMO was improving at a better rate before the 10 team league.

[Colm]

Originally posted by Éanna
1. It has not improved crowds for the majority of clubs.
I don't know about that. I'd say crowds are marginally up across the board. This being true for some clubs more than others.
I certainly don't thin it has had a detrimental effect on crowds.


Originally posted by Éanna
2. It has not made any improvement on the financial side of things (if anything its worse)
As has been discussed, I think the supposed financial problems are being blown out of all proportion. Only Rovers are in serious trouble.
Think about it, money from gate reciepts and sponsorship will be more plentiful in a ten team league. You are obviously going to get bigger crowds for games and attract more sponsors when you have regular games against Bohs/Rovers/City etc than if you have games against the likes of Monaghan/Kilkenny/Galway etc.


Originally posted by Éanna
3. The league has not become significantly more competitive.
I disagree. Almost every club had something to play for right until the end of last season.


Originally posted by Éanna
4. Its led to the league just about becoming the dublin and district league.
True and I don't like that fact. However, as much as I'd like to think otherwise, they are there on merit as are ourselves, Longford, Derry etc. Why should poorly run clubs who have made no effort to better themselves be given an easy ride and left into an enlarged premier division when other clubs have worked tirelessly to be there?


Originally posted by Éanna
5. It has not made any signficant improvement to the quality of football, which IMO was improving at a better rate before the 10 team league.

Again I disagree. Before the 10 team league was introduced there was always one or two very poor sides e.g. Monaghan and Kilkenny who were miles adrift at the bottom of the table.
Having poor sides like this in the premier division drags down the overall standard of the league.



The ten team league might not be the ideal solution but for the time being it is the only viable solution. IMO, expanding the size of the premier division at this moment in time would be a disaster for Irish football.

[Macy]

Town are a definite yes to this proposal, and have been talking about it for a while already.

Heard on the Radio at the weekend (Radio One I think) that it needs a unanimous vote to go through this year, and then it'll be 2/3's next year. Also talk of a possible breakaway if it did get passed.

On the proposal, I agree with the comments about it being half arsed - no plan, or agreement for more junior clubs to make the step up to the 1st, so we'll have no relegation which would be a disaster for the league. Also if it was done this season the new premier would still be dominated by Dublin and District Clubs (UCD would have stayed up, then Dublin City, Bray and Kildare would have come up), and there's nothing to say that wouldn't happen again....

[A face]

Originally posted by Éanna

1. It has not improved crowds for the majority of clubs.

Eanna you're wrong i'd say ... they have not increased the way we'd like to see them increase but ... if it were the old 12 team sys. .... what would you expect then ?


2. It has not made any improvement on the financial side of things (if anything its worse)

Again, before the change, would it have been much better. Infact it is better now because clubs are spending money as opposed to before. And lets face it ..... clubs WILL have to spend to improve. There is no way around that.

And like everything .... if you fcuk it up and go over, you will pay the price.



3. The league has not become significantly more competitive.

Wrong ..... Think back now Eanna.


4. Its led to the league just about becoming the dublin and district league.

MAybe so .... but like all the Dubs say .... you cant make allowances for clubs that are not good enough. Alot of clubs need to take the finger out and that is the short of it.


5. It has not made any signficant improvement to the quality of football, which IMO was improving at a better rate before the 10 team league.

I dunno .... I think teams have to put it up a bit more now becasue the drop zone is alot closer.

And how many years do we have the ten team league .... ??? In all fairness, when all the clubs signed up to this, it was said at least 3 years and then decide. It is far to early to be thinking about changing. I also think that clubs shouldn't have the power to change the system that easily. There should be a proposal first and then see what kind of responce and then take it to the table.

Actually i dont know how it was put foward but there doesn't seem to have been that much thought gone into. But is there ever !! :(

[A face]

Originally posted by A face
MAybe so .... but like all the Dubs say .... you cant make allowances for clubs that are not good enough. Alot of clubs need to take the finger out and that is the short of it.


And isnt the 22 team league just an easy way of avoiding putting in the effort. Clubs wont have to excel and imrove. They just have it handed to them.

I think this is one of the biggest issues with the whole affair ..... clubs will have to approach improvement with alot more thought now. It will take sustained effort to improve to such a degree to be able to compete successfully in the first and stay up in the Premier. It may take a while but the ten team Premier will be in a few years a fairly handy competition to be in, and that is the the reward.

[Xlex]

Are you talking to yourself again A Face? Really you can't say that crowds are up this year because of the 10 team league, perhaps it's the summer soccer?

I'm knida surprised Longford are keen on this ill-thought solution

[pete]

I just can't accept Bray aren't takeing the lazy option. Their local derby next season will be UCD & all their dublin friends in the Premier division - no doubt they anticipating increased travel budget & reduced attendances.

Bray have really done nothing as far as i can see to improve their lot. The ground is still dire & don't think a 1st division club rumoured to be paying almost 1K a week to a certain player can moan too much about finances.

:rolleyes:

Longford ahve shown what is possible of any 1st division club & no club would have a smaller potential support base.

[Xlex]

I don't know Pete, It would be a hell of a lot harder to do it now rather than when LTFC got promoted. Have to see if Waterford and Dublin City's (on Field) progress is sustainable.

[Macy]

Originally posted by Xlex
I don't know Pete, It would be a hell of a lot harder to do it now rather than when LTFC got promoted. Have to see if Waterford and Dublin City's (on Field) progress is sustainable.
And ours tbh. The 10 team league is extremely tight - it was only a couple of games from the end that we were safe from the play off, and again the previous season - yet we we finished a top half both times....

I do think that maybe it is time to consider going back to a 12 team league, as now there are a couple of clubs who should be capable of making a good fist of it if promoted. However, the last few seasons of the 12 team premier were ridiculous with teams being way out of the depth all season (and the unequal home and away's is a joke IMO)...

[Damon Umphy]

looks like bohs are voting no:

http://www.bohemians.ie/betanews.htm#22-team%20League:::10/01/04

cant blame them. the gulf in class is too great. personally, i can see no merits in a 22 team division. the weaker sides would only suffer more from getting hammered every other week by the likes of bohs, $h€l$, cork and patricks (look at kilkenny in 2000/01). from the premier division's point of view, which will draw bigger crowds, dublin derbies or the visit of say, athlone? financially, it could easily cost a number of clubs their very existance. rovers are only just staying afloat on what theyre getting now, the loss of three big "home" games against bohs, pats and shels could be the straw that breaks the camels back.

[SÓC]

Bring it back to 12, scrap the league cup play ever team twice home and away thats 44 games. Play the mid week ones when the weather is warm and its bright.

[Estar]

Originally posted by Éanna
the 10 team premier IS a disaster. the quality of football has improved, but that was happening anyway, so it has not had any real positive effects IMO

I'ts not a disaster, but I see where your coiming from Eanna. If 10 is so good why not make it 9. Going by some peoples lodgic it should improve the football standard again.

Kilkenny have come out in favour of 22.

It's creeping up the YES vote:)

[Estar]

Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Bring it back to 12, scrap the league cup

I think they made the league 10 because 12 did not work.

I enjoyed the League Cup last year, I know even Kildare put out their second team, but the matches against Athlone and Longford were good games to watch. I went to the League Cup final and it was as good if not better than the FAI Cup final.

[Xlex]

Originally posted by Estar
I went to the League Cup final and it was as good if not better than the FAI Cup final.

can't blame the teams.....:D

[dortie]

Originally posted by Estar


I enjoyed the League Cup last year, I know even Kildare put out their second team,


The league cup is still a trophy with 10,000 euro plus gate receipts as an incentive to win !!! Why would Kildare county put out a 2nd team :rolleyes: I mean its not as if you were top of the first division ???

BTW: 12 team premier for me....22 is Just pants !!

[SÓC]

Originally posted by Estar
I think they made the league 10 because 12 did not work.

The main reason it didnt work was because of the stupid play each team three times system.

I'd be all for the league cup except that if you had 12 teams playing each other 4 its hard to see where you could fit in a league cup.

[Estar]

Originally posted by dortie
The league cup is still a trophy with 10,000 euro plus gate receipts as an incentive to win !!! Why would Kildare county put out a 2nd team :rolleyes: I mean its not as if you were top of the first division ???

BTW: 12 team premier for me....22 is Just pants !!

Kildare County ended up with a total of -1 points for playing a un reg player. Dermot keely wanted the First Division tilte, nothing else mattered.:D

[atfconline]

Originally posted by Estar
Kildare County ended up with a total of -1 points for playing a un reg player. Dermot keely wanted the First Division tilte, nothing else mattered.:D

Were those points every actually deducted btw? I don't think they were.