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Johnny Taxman wants us gone. (http://www.insolvencyjournal.ie/more_details/09-05-13/Petition_to_wind_up_Cork_City_Investment_FC_Ltd.as px)
Is that the current crowd in charge? (Genuine question...)
Is that the current crowd in charge? (Genuine question...)According to our website, Yes.
Bottom of this (http://www.corkcityfc.ie/main.php) page.
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 3:42 PM
Got this from the Derry forum
http://www.insolvencyjournal.ie/more_details/09-05-13/Petition_to_wind_up_Cork_City_Investment_FC_Ltd.as px
Anyone have any info? What's brought this on?
centre mid
13/05/2009, 3:44 PM
Probably arkaga
pineapple stu
13/05/2009, 3:45 PM
No, that's the trading company. If it's real, it's the same thing that hit Shels a few times in 2006. But Cork also survived a petition in 2006 (Limerick FC didn't).
If it's real, it's not good news. Seems to confirm the problems with Coughlan.
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 3:45 PM
Probably arkaga
Don't think so. This is from their site:
Cork City Investments F.C. Limited. Private Limited Company. Registered in Ireland. Registration No: 366256.
Directors: T. Coughlan & A. Traynor. Registered Office: Rushbrooke, Cobh, Co. Cork, Ireland.
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 3:51 PM
Registered Office: Rushbrooke, Cobh, Co. Cork, Ireland.
Turncoats!
pineapple stu
13/05/2009, 3:51 PM
Think that was highlighted at the time. Nice and amusing!
Real, real shame.
Hopefully they'll pull through
pineapple stu
13/05/2009, 3:58 PM
Agreed. But it seems there needs to be fundamental change at Cork or this'll happen again. I think in 2006, once the arrears were paid to Revenue, the petition was withdrawn. Cash has been a problem for Cork of late though, with the rumours of unpaid wages.
A face
13/05/2009, 4:00 PM
Lads, what are the possible outcomes with this petition?
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 4:01 PM
Cash has been a problem for Cork of late though, with the rumours of unpaid wages.
According to Coughlan and co. wages not being paid at the right time have been the result of "clerical errors".
Dalymountrower
13/05/2009, 4:03 PM
Doesn`t look optimistic , the Petitioner is the Collector General, though maybe in this climate the Revenue will settle for what they can get. It will still leave Cork in breach of licensing, with a point deduction?
Best of luck with contesting the petition.
pineapple stu
13/05/2009, 4:04 PM
Lads, what are the possible outcomes with this petition?
Pay the money, you're grand. Don't pay it, they probably wind the company up, sell the assets and take the cash.
I see the notice before Cork City is Danninger (http://www.insolvencyjournal.ie/more_details/09-05-13/Petition_to_wind_up_Danninger.aspx), coincidentally. Which side of the Bohs debacle were they on again?
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 4:04 PM
Lads, what are the possible outcomes with this petition?
I would presume that the club is either wound up, or pays what it owes and is allowed to continue, whether that payment can be made on an instalment basis remains to be seen. I'd say the revenue are getting pretty ****ed of with the LoI at this stage, and obviously need the dough.
A face
13/05/2009, 4:04 PM
How can it all have been sorted with the taxman in Nov (examinship) and now only 7 months later they are after us again. Can they actually do that?
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 4:05 PM
Pay the money, you're grand. Don't pay it, they probably wind the company up, sell the assets and take the cash.
I see the notice before Cork City is Danninger (http://www.insolvencyjournal.ie/more_details/09-05-13/Petition_to_wind_up_Danninger.aspx), coincidentally. Which side of the Bohs debacle were they on again?
They are the ones funding Bohs at the moment, aren't they? Danninger bought the "full" stadium I think.
How can it all have been sorted with the taxman in Nov (examinship) and now only 7 months later they are after us again. Can they actually do that?
If they're not paid, and cork haven't kept to any agreements that may be in place, then yes they can do that
sonofstan
13/05/2009, 4:11 PM
They are the ones funding Bohs at the moment, aren't they? Danninger bought the "full" stadium I think.
No they didn't - they negotiated an option to buy, subject to lots of things: he money they paid us was to secure that exclusive interest. (and they're not 'funding' us at the moment either)
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 4:16 PM
No they didn't - they negotiated an option to buy, subject to lots of things: he money they paid us was to secure that exclusive interest. (and they're not 'funding' us at the moment either)
In the accounts that were leaked a while back, did it not show €1m from Danninger? And was this payment not made again this season? I'm not posting this in an arsey way, but that's what I have gleaned from the stuff I've seen.
With regards to the option to buy, why were Bohs fans running about when the deal was announced as if they had won the Lotto?
Threads merged.
Not 100% sure of the deal secured coming out of Examinership. I think we had to pay 15% but not sure if in installments or not. :confused:
Longfordian
13/05/2009, 4:47 PM
Ah anybody who's anybody in this league has at least been threatened with being wound up at some stage!. Pay the money and you'll be fine but I wouldn't bank on them agreeing to any instalments too easily.
MariborKev
13/05/2009, 4:57 PM
If they're not paid, and cork haven't kept to any agreements that may be in place, then yes they can do that
Exactly Dodge,
Cork will struggle with this one if they haven't keep to the agreed payment schedule,which the petition would indicate they haven't.
- The Revenue will push a lot harder and Cork will have used up whatever goodwill they have
- The judge will look upon any breach unfavourably.
Particularly as this is the 2nd winding up order served in 3 years, and in between was an Examinership
thesilverfox
13/05/2009, 6:37 PM
what are the odds of survival?
Is'nt there more stringent and strick penalties this year for any club that goes up the creek moneywise?Its not just a big pts deduction but transfer embargo or instant demotion.
Hopefully they pull through,they always seem to.
Club statement:
Cork City Football Club wish to confirm that the club is currently in negotiation with the Revenue regarding the club’s tax liabilities. When the club emerged from Examinership, a settlement was reached with Revenue. Additional tax liabilities subsequently emerged which result from the club’s previous ownership, and the club is currently addressing this matter with Revenue in a bid to bring the issue to a swift and successful conclusion. The fact that these liabilities have arisen subsequent to the Examinership is an issue which the club intends to pursue with the Examiners. The club’s legal and financial advisers intend to meet with the Revenue as a matter of urgency in order to come to an agreement with regard to our current tax liabilities.
Having successfully emerged from the Examinership, Cork City Football Club has embarked on a rebuilding programme in order to create a sustainable club which is grounded in the community and is capable of achieving success on and off the pitch. While the first team is currently enjoying an excellent run and is now joint top of the League of Ireland Premier Division, the current economic conditions have meant that the goals set by the club off the field are taking longer to achieve than was originally foreseen.
While income levels have proved to be less than were originally projected, the club is working hard to address this shortfall. Cork City Football Club is this year celebrating its 25th anniversary, and the club is working hard at every level to build a sustainable, successful club of which Cork city and county can be proud. This Friday night, Cork City FC face Derry City at Turner’s Cross in a top of the table clash, where the passion and commitment of the Rebel Army will once again be on show. Cork City Football Club is confident that any short-term problems affecting the club will be overcome as a result of the determination and ability of the club and its supporters, and that a bright and successful future lies ahead for the club.
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 7:54 PM
Less than reassuring. Sounds like a load of waffle to be honest.
Additional tax liabilities subsequently emerged which result from the club’s previous ownership
Followed by
The fact that these liabilities have arisen subsequent to the Examinership is an issue which the club intends to pursue with the Examiners
How does that make sense? Maybe I'm not reading it right.
How does that make sense? Maybe I'm not reading it right.
They're going to try and get the examiners to explain why those tax debts weren't deal with at the time of examinership. I think.
Blaming the examiner?
That's weak. Powerful weak.
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 8:12 PM
They're going to try and get the examiners to explain why those tax debts weren't deal with at the time of examinership. I think.
It seems to contradict itself. How can liabilities arising post-examinership be blamed on the previous regime?
A N Mouse
13/05/2009, 8:25 PM
It seems to contradict itself. How can liabilities arising post-examinership be blamed on the previous regime?
Think they're trying to claim that these liabilities, from the previous regime, only came to light after the examinership process. Which doesn't sound good, whether you accept it at face value or not.
More worrying is when they touch on current finances. Economic conditions... yada yada... shortfall. We know they've been been paying people late, but has the taxman been getting paid on time?
MariborKev
13/05/2009, 8:31 PM
Pol,
The Examiner runs the company whilst in charge.
Therefore when he would have presented Coughlan with a picture of the state of the company including tax liabilities etc. I was reading it that additional liabilities, over and above those shown by the Examiner have now emerged. Therefore Coughlan will be arguing that the Examiner didn't present him with a true picture when he looked at buying the club ergo that he can't be blamed.
However it is still worrying for the Cork fans. I'd assume the Revenue work the same as the HRMC in that they don't slap a petition on you as their first option, they write to you and look for meetings to resolve the issue. The fact that the Revenue have gone the route of the petition means that there has been no resolution.
Dunno how the rest of you see it, but from that statement it would appear that Cork will still have to pay it, but the semantics relate to whether the Examiner may be liable for it and Coughlan could potentially recover damages(equal to the liabilitiy plus more) from the Examiner.
As Mr A says, it is a dangerous game to play. This examiner has overseen examinership of LOI clubs before so they'd know where to look.
I'd assume the Revenue work the same as the HRMC in that they don't slap a petition on you, they write to you and look for meetings to resolve the issue. The fact that the Revenue have gone the route of the petition means that there has been no resolution.
Without knowing the facts about the Cork case, it is usually the case that Revenue seek a winding up order as a last resort, after trying to arrange payment schemes/meetings etc etc
Umberside
13/05/2009, 9:34 PM
I've heard so many things now that I can't possibly get worried.
Already this season there was the "Cork City likely to fold" thread which claimed that Coughlan was gone after the Galway game, there was the Danny Murphy's wages thing at the end of March so I really can't be expected to fear this new worry.
Obviously it has to be sorted out, but I think that's just what will happen.
pól-dcfc
13/05/2009, 9:52 PM
I've heard so many things now that I can't possibly get worried.
Already this season there was the "Cork City likely to fold" thread which claimed that Coughlan was gone after the Galway game, there was the Danny Murphy's wages thing at the end of March so I really can't be expected to fear this new worry.
Obviously it has to be sorted out, but I think that's just what will happen.
The difference between the earlier rumours and this, is that a petition has been submitted to wind up the club. This is official. I hope the money is found - if it's not I wouldn't expect the judge to offer the club any leniency.
sligoman
13/05/2009, 9:55 PM
I'm fed up of all these stories about Cork now...where do I sign this petition?:p
peadar1987
13/05/2009, 10:38 PM
You don't need a petition to wind them up, just call them a bunch of classless savages from beyond the Pale. That usually does the trick! ;)
Pol,
The Examiner runs the company whilst in charge.
Therefore when he would have presented Coughlan with a picture of the state of the company including tax liabilities etc. I was reading it that additional liabilities, over and above those shown by the Examiner have now emerged. Therefore Coughlan will be arguing that the Examiner didn't present him with a true picture when he looked at buying the club ergo that he can't be blamed.
However it is still worrying for the Cork fans. I'd assume the Revenue work the same as the HRMC in that they don't slap a petition on you as their first option, they write to you and look for meetings to resolve the issue. The fact that the Revenue have gone the route of the petition means that there has been no resolution.
Dunno how the rest of you see it, but from that statement it would appear that Cork will still have to pay it, but the semantics relate to whether the Examiner may be liable for it and Coughlan could potentially recover damages(equal to the liabilitiy plus more) from the Examiner.
As Mr A says, it is a dangerous game to play. This examiner has overseen examinership of LOI clubs before so they'd know where to look.
I think that is a reasonable assessment. Itsd all very complicated. Hopefully it is a case of the club unwilling to pay the money as it disagrees with the liability as opposed to being unable to pay the money.
Dodge
13/05/2009, 11:56 PM
I think that is a reasonable assessment. Itsd all very complicated. Hopefully it is a case of the club unwilling to pay the money as it disagrees with the liability as opposed to being unable to pay the money.
Cork wouldn't want to be too pushy about it.
Billy Lord
14/05/2009, 12:18 AM
There are no complications. Cork City can have no dispute with the examiner as the examinership was subject to the ruling of the High Court. And that's all done and dusted.
FORAS: wake up! Step in and talk to the Revenue Commissioners.
SeanDrog
14/05/2009, 7:43 AM
Back page of todays Indo
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/cork-city-plunged-into-turmoil-1738327.html
Cork City plunged into turmoil
Thursday May 14 2009
CORK CITY Football Club has been plunged into turmoil after a court petition to wind up its holding company was filed by the Revenue Commissioners yesterday. Revenue Collector General Gerry Harrahill filed a petition for the insolvency of Cork City Investment FC Ltd, which will be heard in court on May 25. If the court rules in favour of the Revenue's petition, Cork City will enter the process of liquidation on the day of the hearing, so the club's trip to Bray Wanderers on Friday week could prove the final game of their existence. It is the second time in seven months that the Cork club will face the possibility of extinction in court after they made it through examinership last October, with current owner Tom Coughlan having stepped in to take over the company.
Statement
The club last night issued a statement with regard to the situation, stating that their "legal and financial advisers intend to meet with the Revenue as a matter of urgency in order to come to an agreement with regard to our current tax liabilities. "While the first team is currently enjoying an excellent run and is now joint top of the League of Ireland Premier Division, the current economic conditions have meant that the goals set by the club off the field are taking longer to achieve than was originally foreseen," the statement continued. "While income levels have proved to be less than were originally projected, the club is working hard to address this shortfall." Coincidentally, another petition was also filed yesterday to wind up Danninger Ltd, the company which was due to purchase Bohemians' Dalymount Park and build them a new stadium in Harristown on the outskirts of Dublin.
- Neil Ahern
pineapple stu
14/05/2009, 8:23 AM
I'm not optimistic. If we fold it's our own fault no one else's. I wonder if the fai had demoted us during the off season like they should have would we have as much financial problems? Surely it would have been easier to pay staff if nothing else had that happened
There was a points deduction table for giong into examinership. I think about the only certain thing in this case is that Cork won't be going into examinership again.
Mayo Red
14/05/2009, 8:27 AM
I'll sign it too!!:p
Ah seriously though, I know I'll probably be accused of either being a bit over simplistic or stating the bleedin' obvious but without really knowing the ins and outs of it, Cork's problems over the last few years (in common with several other clubs I might add) seem to be mainly down to mismanagement on the business side of things.
It's hard to understand otherwise how a club that has always had one of the biggest and most passionate followings in the League and is the only show in town soccerwise in a city like Cork always seems to be in some sort of difficulty off the field. That being said, I hope City come through this latest crisis because I've always liked the brand of football they try to play and the League needs a strong Cork team to balance it out.
pineapple stu
14/05/2009, 8:28 AM
the League needs a strong Cork team to balance it out.
Nooooo!!!!!
45 posts without someone saying that!
sonofstan
14/05/2009, 8:30 AM
In the accounts that were leaked a while back, did it not show €1m from Danninger? And was this payment not made again this season? I'm not posting this in an arsey way, but that's what I have gleaned from the stuff I've seen.
With regards to the option to buy, why were Bohs fans running about when the deal was announced as if they had won the Lotto?
A payment was due this year, but, thanks to the court case, wasn't, and won't, be made.
With regard to the second question....... I wasn't one of them - I think a lot of people, helped by the board, assumed this was a done deal, long before it ever actually was.
Mayo Red
14/05/2009, 8:40 AM
Nooooo!!!!!
45 posts without someone saying that!
My bad......but ye can't have it all in Dublin!!;)
OneRedArmy
14/05/2009, 8:58 AM
Coughlan is a spoofer.
The examiner is charged with, amongst other things, presenting an accurate statement of the company's finances to prospective investors.
Coughlan is alleging this wasn't the case as there were undiscovered liabilities. If he's right he can take action against the examiner and has a clear case.
But he hasn't. Why? Cause he's a spoofer. No good could come of a man who was so into his football he floated the idea of Billy Morgan taking over.
Time for FORAS to step in.
Coughlan is a spoofer.
The examiner is charged with, amongst other things, presenting an accurate statement of the company's finances to prospective investors.
Coughlan is alleging this wasn't the case as there were undiscovered liabilities. If he's right he can take action against the examiner and has a clear case.
Furthermore surely Coughlan would have double checked everything before comitting to buy the club?
But he hasn't. Why? Cause he's a spoofer. No good could come of a man who was so into his football he floated the idea of Billy Morgan taking over.
And asked a City legend and now tv pundit if he thought Roy Keane would be interested in the job :D. Not sure if this was before or after Billy Morgan turned him down;)
Time for FORAS to step in.
Possibily but if Cork City Investments is wound up it'll be too late. The club will cease to exist immediately.
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