Petition to wind up: Cork City Investment FC Ltd

[tiktok]

Has this not shown-up/been flagged in the monthly checks/audits that Padraigh Smith & Co in the FAI Licencing Dept are carrying out?

It must have, I know the FAI have been aware of the situation for a while, though it could be that the club themselves informed them of the situation.


Not stirring here, but if it wasn't run up under Coughlan's tenure when was it run up?

During the Arkaga regime. Regardless of what the examiner has said, I believe he does have questions to answer. I'm not absolving TC of responsibility mind, that he's only hurt the situation is evidenced by the amount of money involved

[John83]

Not stirring here, but if it wasn't run up under Coughlan's tenure when was it run up?

Scary numbers though, can they pay that much and wages?
Some of it seems to be outstanding from the examinership agreement.

Buile Shuibhne's question is fair. I'm sure it's been obvious to Smith. The question, I think, is what he's done (& can do) about it.

[John83]

Does anybody know if Cork have paid any VAT or PRSI to the tax man since they came out of examinership?
They've run up €300k of debt (possibly less €30k from examinership). That sounds like a no.

[Ezeikial]

People will [rightly in my opinion] question why they should fundraise to support a man who seems intent on running up huge costs. No-one wants to see their money wasted and as long as it is, people will view FORAS as a warchest for when we need to pick up the pieces.

Tiktok and other Cork supporters - What is the road ahead for senior football in Cork

Is it inevitable that the Tom Coughlan regime is in its dying throes?

Presumably a white knight (ouch that sounds like an Arkaga) to invest in the club is unlikely in the current climate. You say FORAS don't have the funds - can they realistically acquire them in the next 6 months?

What are the options?

[tiktok]

Tiktok and other Cork supporters - What is the road ahead for senior football in Cork

Is it inevitable that the Tom Coughlan regime is in its dying throes?

Presumably a white knight (ouch that sounds like an Arkaga) to invest in the club is unlikely in the current climate. You say FORAS don't have the funds - can they realistically acquire them in the next 6 months?

What are the options?

I never say FORAS don't have the funds, just that FORAS couldn't afford to run Cork City as it currently exists.
However, and this is key, the problem there is how Cork City currently exists, not the FORAS funds available.


I'm not Tom Coughlan's biggest fan, but in this case portions of the bills were outside of his control. he must learn from it though, he must tear up the business plan which is not working and he must reduce costs and the wage bill at the next transfer window.

A few friendlies in the summer will help as they helped other clubs in the past, but barely getting by year to year based on friendlies and hoping for prize money is not the way to run a sustainable business.

CCFC brings in enough money to make it sustainable, if run sensibly, Shamrock Rovers are proof of this and with a smaller home gate than Cork City achieve [and in my opinion, the shining light where matters of a financial nature are under discussion]. White knights are a distraction, there have never been, nor will they ever be a realistic answer.

[John83]

I'm not Tom Coughlan's biggest fan, but in this case portions of the bills were outside of his control.
What portion? 90% of the debt seems to have arisen since he took over, and it's tax relating to playing staff, which contracts have all been written since he took over. Perhaps I've picked up something wrong, but from my understanding of the situation I'm not inclined to cut Coughlan any slack over this.

[tiktok]

What portion? 90% of the debt seems to have arisen since he took over, and it's tax relating to playing staff, which contracts have all been written since he took over. Perhaps I've picked up something wrong, but from my understanding of the situation I'm not inclined to cut Coughlan any slack over this.

I'd estimate between 1/3 and 1/2 is legacy debt from the Arkaga period that was run up by Arkaga during their reign. It was then either not factored in by the examiner [IMO] or the full amount only came to light post examinership.

[Dodge]

Not being funny tiktok, but there's absolutely no way the Examiner missed any outstanding payments. Certainly not to revenue. For that to happen both Revenue and the examiner would've had to miss it, and thats not going to happen

[tiktok]

Not being funny tiktok, but there's absolutely no way the Examiner missed any outstanding payments. Certainly not to revenue. For that to happen both Revenue and the examiner would've had to miss it, and thats not going to happen

Let's say that in order to get a licence the club has to pay all the back pay to staff and/orplayers that had gone unpaid during examinership. That back-pay is paid and associated tax is accrued post examinership, but you'd have thought someone might have noticed it was coming down the line and could have factored it into the revenue settlement?

I'm making no excuses for, nor am I absolving, anyone. We clearly have serious issues in the current set-up, but we're still suffering the hangover from the excessive drinking of Arkaga.

[pineapple stu]

But that's surely Coughlan's fault for not realising that he's starting out with this debt, which seems fairly obvious if it is as you put it.

I would have thought that coming out of examinership would have entailed a statement saying that CCFC owe x amount to all suppliers in lieu of any and all balances outstanding at the date of going into examinership, which would then be broken down into specific amounts owing to Revenue, creditors, ex-employees, etc. So while the debt may be Arkaga's fault, not factoring in repaying it is purely Coughlan's fault.

[tiktok]

So while the debt may be Arkaga's fault, not factoring in repaying it is purely Coughlan's fault.

I never said otherwise, I just thinks it's important to highlight that all this debt is not automatically as a result of how the club has been run since examinership as some are stating.

[pineapple stu]

It is in a way though. You said portions of the bills were outside his control; I'd argue they weren't - he knew what he inherited and should have planned around that.

However, there is a point that you can't extrapolate from the current position what the debt will be at the end of the year.

[tiktok]

It is in a way though. You said portions of the bills were outside his control; I'd argue they weren't - he knew what he inherited and should have planned around that.

Maybe I chose my words badly. The accrual of some bills that surfaced post examinership was outside of his control [and should have been highlighted to him at the time he took over the club], finding a means to pay for them and budgeting accordingly was within his control certainly.

However [and it came up in the Court today it seems from the wording on the home page] the club are claiming that they're seeking to clarify what's actually owed, I wouldn't be surprised to see them challenge some of the debt claimed, they've already strongly hinted they'll do so.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend Coughlan, I'm talking about a % of the debt, not the whole lot, he's run up plenty on his own.

[Kildareman]

Fran Gavin will find a saviour to replace Coghlan. Similar to what Delaney did a few seasons ago in Limerick. And the FAI will settle the debt with revenue from an upcoming international friendly and the sun will still shine on Leeside.

[pineapple stu]

The accrual of some bills that surfaced post examinership was outside of his control
I think this is the point myself, Dodge and John83 are confused over. your other points about him running up plenty of debt by himself are noted.

If, as I assume*, examinership ended with a fairly definite table of what was owed and what was written off, no debts can have surfaced post examinership. There may have been debts there which Coughlan forgot to factor into whatver passes for his business plan, but the debts can't simply have surfaced post examinership unless the examiner screwed up. I'm pretty sure that at the start of an examinership, a full schedule of liabilities is drawn up; it's the first thing the examiner looks at. This would then be sent out to everyone owed money as a means of double checking. To say the debts surfaced after examinership is to say the examiner didn't notice them, which is highly unlikely.

* - I've dealt with a couple of liquidations, though never an examinership. However, I would imagine the process is roughly the same in terms of working out who's owed what first.

[blackholesun]

Clearly CCFC have been living way beyond their means since the examinership. They should have used coming out of examinership as their chance / excuse to go fully part-time / all local players / local mgmt team. They coulda put Morley / Caulfield or Henderson in charge and probably still be mid-table. Going for Doolin and signing the likes of Kudosovic was nuts. Even if TNB stumps up the 90k, surely they are going to have to slash the wage bill in July. Id like to see CCFC survice and do well going forward but what has gone on since he came on-board has been crazy.

bhs

[adamd164]

Dunno has this been posted..

http://corkcityfc.ie/main.php?action=newsLink&headlineID=948

Club statement:


Cork City FC is pleased to confirm that Judge Laffoy today acceded to an application in the High Court by Mr. Olann Kelleher, representing Cork City Investments FC Ltd, for the case under the Companies Act to be deferred in order for the figures concerned to be clarified.
With the club now top of the League of Ireland Premier Division, and facing an eagerly anticipated top of the table clash against Bohemians on Friday night at Turner’s Cross, the club has every confidence that the issue will be resolved in the very near future. The case will be heard again on the 15th of June.

[Buile Shuibhne]

the club has every confidence that the issue will be resolved in the very near future.

The almost 300k debt has built up on a weekly basis since the start of the year, because CCFC couldn't afford to pay Revenue.

Apart from meeting an agreed repayment schedule (if one can be agreed), what will change to make CCFC afford upcoming payments to Revenue and all their other costs on a week to week basis?

[thischarmingman]

That's a crazy amount of debt and suprising to me. In fairness to Coughlan, not all of the debt was run up under his tenure, but it's clear we're not operating in anywhere near a sustainable fashion.


..and that wasn't obvious in January?


Clearly CCFC have been living way beyond their means since the examinership. They should have used coming out of examinership as their chance / excuse to go fully part-time / all local players / local mgmt team. They coulda put Morley / Caulfield or Henderson in charge and probably still be mid-table. Going for Doolin and signing the likes of Kudosovic was nuts. Even if TNB stumps up the 90k, surely they are going to have to slash the wage bill in July. Id like to see CCFC survice and do well going forward but what has gone on since he came on-board has been crazy.

bhs

Exactly. I'd hate to lose Cork City from the league but they haven't exactly helped themselves in this have they? The signings they made pre-season when they should have been cutting their cloth just sum up the idiotic way of doing business some clibs in this league have.

[micls]

..and that wasn't obvious in January?
.

Who said that?

[OneRedArmy]

The almost 300k debt has built up on a weekly basis since the start of the year, because CCFC couldn't afford to pay Revenue.

Apart from meeting an agreed repayment schedule (if one can be agreed), what will change to make CCFC afford upcoming payments to Revenue and all their other costs on a week to week basis?Nail on head.

Given Coughlan's personal situation it looks like rabbit out of a hat stuff unfortunately.

[Longfordian]

Wouldn't read too much into the adjournment in terms of it being any reflection on the strengths or weaknesses of a case. You very often get an adjournment at the first hearing of a matter if it's sought. Better than being wound up immediately though I suppose.

[tiktok]

..and that wasn't obvious in January?

Point out to me where I said that?

[adamd164]

The crocodile tears from Derry fans here are hilarious. Nothing else to worry about now you've lost it on the pitch for another year I spose.

Stevey Kenny's a loooooo-serrrrrrrr.


http://www.cartelia.net/fotos/l/loser.jpg

[pól-dcfc]

The crocodile tears from Derry fans here are hilarious. Nothing else to worry about now you've lost it on the pitch for another year I spose.

Stevey Kenny's a loooooo-serrrrrrrr.


http://www.cartelia.net/fotos/l/loser.jpg

Are you a 15 year old American girl living in 1999?

[Real ale Madrid]

I dunno have Derry lost anything - given the state of the front two's finances - the 10/3 about Derry lifting the title is starting to look tempting.....

[adamd164]

I dunno have Derry lost anything - given the state of the front two's finances - the 10/3 about Derry lifting the title is starting to look tempting.....
They've lost it on the pitch. No matter what happens I'm happy in that knowledge.

And despite their pathetic post-hoc cries about us forking out ridiculous wage sums, they looked at our squad two months back and repeatedly declared themselves the number one challengers to Bohs. Came onto our forum laughing when Kearney signed for them thanking us for taking Billy Dennehy off their hands.

King Kenny shown up again for what he is. A loser.

[MariborKev]

Well done for dragging the topic way off course......

Dennehey was home sick, hated Derry and admitted himself that he didn't do himself justice here. He certainly gave that impression.

Post hoc cries? The rational element of your support were doing that, never mind us.

This is the LOI general forum, and like it or not Cork's finance position is an item of general discussion. Just like it would be if it was us(there by the grace of God), Bohs, Shels, and others.

[Dodge]

The crocodile tears from Derry fans here are hilarious. Nothing else to worry about now you've lost it on the pitch for another year I spose.

Stevey Kenny's a loooooo-serrrrrrrr.


http://www.cartelia.net/fotos/l/loser.jpg

What a pethetic post. Your club is on the brink of extinction, and you're having a pop at Stephen kenny?

Seriously, get a grip on yourself...

[John83]

...on the brink of survival...
Hmm... people usually say on the brink of [less desirable outcome]. Something you want to tell us, Dodge? ;)

[mrtndvn]

They've lost it on the pitch. No matter what happens I'm happy in that knowledge.

And despite their pathetic post-hoc cries about us forking out ridiculous wage sums, they looked at our squad two months back and repeatedly declared themselves the number one challengers to Bohs. Came onto our forum laughing when Kearney signed for them thanking us for taking Billy Dennehy off their hands.

King Kenny shown up again for what he is. A loser.

Adam you really are a bitter wee boy and trust me it's not just the Derry fans that see it.

Well done on beating us this year, despite the ref handing you the game you played very well and most Derry fans would say that your first half performance against us was the best that we have come across this year.

However, I do believe that you have forgotten that we have also beaten you this year. You probably weren't at that game as your in school until 4 and probably had some homework to do.

However, when Cork City, Cork Hibs, Cork Rovers or what ever your current senior team in that city is called goes tits up in the end, I'll be happy in the knowledge that you will be able to go to the retirement home on a Friday night and continue your bitter ramblings with your other bitter twisted friend redx, while I will still have a team to follow on a Friday.

[Northern Light]

[QUOTE=mrtndvn;1167077]Adam you really are a bitter wee boy and trust me it's not just the Derry fans that see it.

QUOTE]

I think City fans see it as well:) . He certainly has a bee in his bonnet about you guys.

[don ramo]

Fran Gavin will find a saviour to replace Coghlan. Similar to what Delaney did a few seasons ago in Limerick. And the FAI will settle the debt with revenue from an upcoming international friendly and the sun will still shine on Leeside.

limerick fc werent saved, they went t*ts up, and limerick 37 were formed as a new club,

while i hope city resolve there issues id say there are to may fires to put out, and it seems there relying on a big gate this weekend,

the issue with city just doesnt seem to go away, just when you think there save there not,

i was thinking there today, there are player in the LOI getting paid more than what the club would win in prize money for winning the league,
thats just ridiculus, how on earth can anyone demand that, people go to college for six years, and dont earn what they do even after working for 20 years,

[John83]

i was thinking there today, there are player in the LOI getting paid more than what the club would win in prize money for winning the league,
thats just ridiculus, how on earth can anyone demand that, people go to college for six years, and dont earn what they do even after working for 20 years,
I don't know about that - the prize money for first now is probably more than the highest wages. It's close though though that your point isn't invalidated by it.

Anyway, on your second point: I'm an engineer. No matter how good I am, no one will pay to watch me work (there are always exceptions: the Mythbusters may be that here). No one will pay to have me wear ads on my shirt, or on the panels around my work space. If I want to make more money than Glen Crowe, I'll have to invent something very profitable, and risk bankruptcy commercialising it myself, or develop a set of skills which is obscenely valuable, in demand, and too difficult for too many others to also develop it, and get hired by a company looking to profit from what I can do. You know, like Glen Crowe. This is how capitalism works.

[don ramo]

I don't know about that - the prize money for first now is probably more than the highest wages. It's close though though that your point isn't invalidated by it.

Anyway, on your second point: I'm an engineer. No matter how good I am, no one will pay to watch me work (there are always exceptions: the Mythbusters may be that here). No one will pay to have me wear ads on my shirt, or on the panels around my work space. If I want to make more money than Glen Crowe, I'll have to invent something very profitable, and risk bankruptcy commercialising it myself, or develop a set of skills which is obscenely valuable, in demand, and too difficult for too many others to also develop it, and get hired by a company looking to profit from what I can do. You know, like Glen Crowe. This is how capitalism works.

your company pays for the advertising on your safety jackets, you should charge them to wear it:D,

i understand your point, but think of the resources you give back, and the lenght of your career, the constant costs youll pay to upgrade your skills, and then this lan**r comes along and kicks a ball, and he get 2-3 time more than you a year,

i have no problems with them in england, man u get 20 mill for winning the league, and ronaldo gets 7 mill a year,
but here, i think its 100,000 for winning the LOI premier league, so if your on over 2,000 a week your taking all the prize money, ( i know nobody will clarify this), but there is plenty of talk of people being paid 3 if not 4,000 a week here, who the hell do these guys think they are,
there a dime a dozen, if one leaves there always another always, why do clubs allow themselfs to be held to ransom, they should all go away and grow a pair

[corkboy360]

So tommy bluffs his way through another month with no great communication to the fans whats exactly going to be the outcome.
In my eyes he is the only one who knows that.

[Ezeikial]

i was thinking there today, there are player in the LOI getting paid more than what the club would win in prize money for winning the league,
thats just ridiculus, how on earth can anyone demand that, people go to college for six years, and dont earn what they do even after working for 20 years,


The prize money for league winners is €280,000 this year going down to €40,000 for last place
http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2009/0227/1224241954245.html

While I doubt that any player is currently on that sort of money, your fundamental point is valid. But any emphasis on players "demanding" high salaries is off the mark. Players can demand all they like (and they are perfectly entitled, even obligated, to negotiate the best possible deal for themselves). The problem, obviously is when the employer (club) agrees to pay more then they can afford or is sensible given the lower of (a) their financial realities, and (b) what the market dictates.

When a product costs more then the revenue it can generate...there is only one long term outcome.

Many clubs have been recklessly guilty of this in the past, and in current real-time the two top culprits are also at the head of the league table.

[don ramo]

The prize money for league winners is €280,000 this year going down to €40,000 for last place
http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2009/0227/1224241954245.html

While I doubt that any player is currently on that sort of money, your fundamental point is valid. But any emphasis on players "demanding" high salaries is off the mark. Players can demand all they like (and they are perfectly entitled, even obligated, to negotiate the best possible deal for themselves). The problem, obviously is when the employer (club) agrees to pay more then they can afford or is sensible given the lower of (a) their financial realities, and (b) what the market dictates.

When a product costs more then the revenue it can generate...there is only one long term outcome.

Many clubs have been recklessly guilty of this in the past, and in current real-time the two top culprits are also at the head of the league table.

i didnt think it had gotten that big, sure it was only 12,000 about 6 years ago, i would be ashamed of my life for a club who would pay a player that, if there is any,

if the 2 leaders of this league go bust in the next month, would there be much point carrying on, theres only about 5 maybe 6 clubs that would actually run there club as a business, and try and turn a profit, the rest would just take over from the current 2, and well be safe for all of one season,


what can actually be done to stop this, surely there is something,

[tiktok]

Players can demand all they like (and they are perfectly entitled, even obligated, to negotiate the best possible deal for themselves). The problem, obviously is when the employer (club) agrees to pay more then they can afford or is sensible given the lower of (a) their financial realities, and (b) what the market dictates.

Agree completely with this.
We're either sticking to an unrealistic budghet or are overpaying a realistic one.
Either way, CCFC haevto cut costs, but it's not the fault of the players, who like any employee in any business will try to get the best deal they can for themselves.

[Real ale Madrid]

[QUOTE=tiktok;1167133]
We're either sticking to an unrealistic budghet or are overpaying a realistic one.
QUOTE]

From what i can see we are working towards a completely unrealistic budget as seen as aside from the examinership issues we have racked up revenue debt of about 230k since TNB took over the club. Our league position is basically false as we are cheating because we are unable to pay our way.

Tommy is basically chancing his arm and trying to get away with this for as long as he can because he is under the false impression that we will sell out TC every week if we are top of the league. He will keep doing this until we pay the ultimate price and lose the club because he hasn't a clue how to run the thing properly.
All the while we lose more and more potential support as the club is continually seen to be not paying its way. As if the reputation wasn't damaged enough by Arkaga and the last examinership process.

[Mr A]

Looks like Derry a struggling a bit as well: http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Candy-Crunch.5301411.jp

[Con-Con]

Looks like Derry a struggling a bit as well: http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Candy-Crunch.5301411.jp
Fine reporting.. Galway who lost 2-1 to Sligo:rolleyes:

[Macy]

To me, trying to hang any of this on the examiner or the examinership process looks like spoofing. If the new owner didn't carry out proper due diligence that's the new owners problem.

[MariborKev]

Looks like Derry a struggling a bit as well: http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Candy-Crunch.5301411.jp

No surprise to me, unfortunately.

[micls]

To me, trying to hang any of this on the examiner or the examinership process looks like spoofing. If the new owner didn't carry out proper due diligence that's the new owners problem.

To give an example of costs arising from examinership, which mightnt have been known, Farrelly was awarded 36k yesterday apparently.

Now it was the examiner who sacked him and yet its the club who are now liable for this payout for unfair dismissal...

[OneRedArmy]

Looks like Derry a struggling a bit as well: http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Candy-Crunch.5301411.jpIf that's the magnitude of it I'd be surprised tbh.

Kenny's a great manager but he's very high maintenance.

With our ground re-development dead in the water and crowds amongst the best in the League it's hard to see where revenue will come from.

[pineapple stu]

To give an example of costs arising from examinership, which mightnt have been known, Farrelly was awarded 36k yesterday apparently.

Now it was the examiner who sacked him and yet its the club who are now liable for this payout for unfair dismissal...

But he would have been aware that something was probably going to have to be paid arising from the case, and should have set aside some money for that contingency.

[micls]

But he would have been aware that something was probably going to have to be paid arising from the case, and should have set aside some money for that contingency.

Really? He should have known the examiner was unfairly dismissing someone, rather than just dismissing them(as happened to many other during the process)?

[tiktok]

But he would have been aware that something was probably going to have to be paid arising from the case, and should have set aside some money for that contingency.

The case was only taken after Coughlan took over.
Farrelly's success now means that other staff fired by the examiner might fancy their chances, should Coughlan have put money aside for that too?

[Macy]

I still think that comes back to the due diligence. There had to be the possibility of cases, and then the chances of success of those cases should've been looked into.