Keeping young players at home

[peadar1987]

A while back it was rumoured that Sepp Blatter was going to bring in a rule whereby clubs couldn't poach overseas players before they hit the age of 18. Does anyone know what happened to this rule? Is it still in the pipeline? What sort of effect could it have on the LOI?

Personally I think it could lead to greater investment in the Irish game, as the FAI won't be able to rely on English clubs developing our best players from an early age any more. In turn it will lead to foreign clubs having to pay higher transfer fees for Irish players, which will lead to more money to invest, and it could have the side-effect of the top players of the future having more of an affinity with LOI clubs, and perhaps consider finishing their careers here

[Rory H]

won't happen, english clubs too powerful.

[A face]

The only way it will happen is if our league improves in standard and club get more professional and develop players properly. Until then there will be nothing for young players to stay for.

[peadar1987]

I found a link to an article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/european_football/article5891206.ece) where Blatter is talking about this. Under this scheme it wouldn't matter whether our league was brilliant or crap, the players wouldn't be allowed sign for a foreign club until they were 18.

I can see the EU having issues with this actually!

[Mr Maroon]

I thought that rule had been put in place already.

[peadar1987]

That's what I was asking about. I thought it might have been, but then you have players like that Macheda lad at Man Ure

[Predator]

League of Ireland teams should start playing talented youngsters that come from youth teams, instead of letting them get signed by English teams. It's ridiculous. If they're good enough for English teams, they're good enough for Irish teams.

[passerrby]

the rule has already been agreed by uefa but requires a vote of all members i think,
It will be hard to implement

[sheao]

Loi clubs should try and snap up any talented young footballers form the local leagues before the English clubs come in for them. The youth should be an important factor for loi clubs as they are the future of the game in this country.

[Mr Maroon]

That's what I was asking about. I thought it might have been, but then you have players like that Macheda lad at Man Ure

I meant very recently, since they signed him.

[peadar1987]

Loi clubs should try and snap up any talented young footballers form the local leagues before the English clubs come in for them. The youth should be an important factor for loi clubs as they are the future of the game in this country.

Exactly. Unfortunately many clubs seem to be focusing on short term success rather than long term development. I know if I was, say, a Bohs supporter, I'd much prefer my team to spend money on proper marketing and youth development than on wages for Joseph Ndo and Jason Byrne.

[brianw82]

Exactly. Unfortunately many clubs seem to be focusing on short term success rather than long term development. I know if I was, say, a Bohs supporter, I'd much prefer my team to spend money on proper marketing and youth development than on wages for Joseph Ndo and Jason Byrne.

I know what you're getting at here, but if a proven LOI goalscorer becomes available, as Byrne did, then you'd have him in your team no questions asked. They should have the likes of Paddy Madden training and learning off players like Byrne and Crowe.

As far as the rule is concerned, there seems to have been a fundamental agreement on this. Not sure how it will be implemented, but I'm sure they'll find a way. It's a big deal as far as I'm concerned. It's about the human rights of children more than anything.

http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/pressrelease/uefa/uefamedia/80/81/29/808129_download.pdf

[ShnaeGuevara715]

What if the parents legitimately moved to Glasgow to work. Would that mean the kid would be barred from playing football there before turns 18?

Thats hardly fair at all. And it'd be impossible to prove legitimacy of claims as we all know like how Man Utd sort the parents out with jobs in the city and a golden handshake. They might be players but they're people with rights to freedom of movement aswell so I struggle to see EU allowing this to be implimented in any meaningful way.

[neutrino]

The only way it will happen is if our league improves in standard and club get more professional and develop players properly. Until then there will be nothing for young players to stay for.

Not neccessarily. The fact LOI clubs have not fostered proper youth academies in the past has created a situation in this country where most players who go acros to the UK do so from nursery clubs that are now proven at developing young players for this market. In my opinion, a LOI club located around such nursey clubs would surely find it hard to get a player in - who would just opt to goto/stay with that club who has a proven link with clubs in the UK. There's alot to be unravelled to address this situation. Unless this 18 year old rule comes in, why would a player goto an LOI club when they are already well tapped up by UK teams offering substantial offers to move. If it doesnt work out over there, then the LOI team comes into consideration.

[EalingGreen]

I can understand LOI fans' frustration at losing young kids who go across the water, but there is no way that this can (or even should, imo) be stopped.

Think about it. You're the parent of a brilliant young kid who has no interest in school etc, since he has been kicking a ball ever since he could stand upright.

From 12 years of age, say, Liverpool have been inviting him over to Anfield/Melwood during school holidays for training and matches etc.

On his 16th Birthday, they offer him a two year contract in their Academy, with the prospect* of a professional career at 18 at the end of it.

By what right can anyone tell you that your kid must not go?

There is not a hope in Hell of any ban getting past the EU's freedom of movement/labour laws. And even if they did accept restrictions on the basis of a player's youth etc, Liverpool would just move his family over to Merseyside and set them up with jobs and accommodation etc. And of course no-one could ever insist they must leave their son on his own back in Ireland. And even if there were some restrictions on signing kids by inducing their family to move, Liverpool would simply get round that e.g. by offering the youngster a scholarship at a local college/training institute etc, whilst also training at club, thereby making it impossible for anyone to deny the lad the chance to further his "eduction".

Which is why FIFA are attempting to control this not by restricting the individual youngsters, but instead would restrict the teams, by limiting the number of "non-domestic" players they may select each game (6 & 5 etc).

But even that won't help countries like the ROI, since if L'pool find that they have filled their "quota", then e.g. Everton will just step in instead. And when Everton's quota is full, then another club will step in. For tbh, even lesser GB clubs like e.g. Tranmere Rovers or Crewe Alexandra can offer better hope of a career in full-time football than any LOI club.

Or does anyone seriously consider that e.g. the next Liam Brady is going to sign for Bohs at the age of 16, stay there for 4 or 5 years, then transfer to Arsenal for £5 million? For even if every club in Britain was somehow blocked off to him, you know what? He'll end up going to Italy or somewhere, only 10 years younger than the original Brady did.

It's the way of the world, I'm afraid.


* - High attrition rate, but enormous rewards for the lucky few

[redalan]

the LOI should have a mechanism for capturing the players before they go or when they are coming back. how many players are lost to the game because they become disenchanted after they failed to make the grade at Liverpool or United or wherever? why don't the FAI/LOI offer to match the wages of some of the lads going away if they stay here. the pay wouldn't be massive at the academies and it might keep some good players in the LOI. if a player is good enough he will be spooted and any transfer fee made later on could be kept by the LOI to develop the game.

[A face]

In my opinion, a LOI club located around such nursey clubs would surely find it hard to get a player in

You make a good point about the proven UK clubs but to say that LOI clubs would find it hard to get players in is just pure mad. Even if they lose the cream of the crop they will still manage to get a good standard of player in.


I can understand LOI fans' frustration at losing young kids who go across the water, but there is no way that this can (or even should, imo) be stopped.

I agree it wont be stopped but if it can create a better environment for kids nearer to home then its better than the current situation, which for the most part is disgarding kids as dropouts at 19-20 while being in the care of said UK for the last 4 years.


Think about it. You're the parent of a brilliant young kid who has no interest in school etc, since he has been kicking a ball ever since he could stand upright. From 12 years of age, say, Liverpool have been inviting him over to Anfield/Melwood during school holidays for training and matches etc. On his 16th Birthday, they offer him a two year contract in their Academy, with the prospect* of a professional career at 18 at the end of it.

By what right can anyone tell you that your kid must not go?

Is this the point where we should start crying? The in-humanity of it all :rolleyes: how dare LOI Clubs try and develop players in there own country.


And even if they did accept restrictions on the basis of a player's youth etc, Liverpool would just move his family over to Merseyside and set them up with jobs and accommodation etc. And of course no-one could ever insist they must leave their son on his own back in Ireland.

What??? I think you are forgetting one thing, Liverpool etc. would never invest that much in a player (and his family) unless they knew he was worth it. What if he got injuried. Too much of a gamble and even harder to disgard the player afterwards with parents in tow

I think you are holding UK clubs in too high a regard. Something to help you with that would be to look at the numbers that do go over and how many make it and how many dont and at the cost of their education.


And even if there were some restrictions on signing kids by inducing their family to move, Liverpool would simply get round that e.g. by offering the youngster a scholarship at a local college/training institute etc, whilst also training at club, thereby making it impossible for anyone to deny the lad the chance to further his "eduction".

There is no way they will start playing for players education. And maybe Liverpool could afford it but Barnsley and Crewe cant afford it so it wont happen.


Or does anyone seriously consider that e.g. the next Liam Brady is going to sign for Bohs at the age of 16, stay there for 4 or 5 years, then transfer to Arsenal for £5 million? For even if every club in Britain was somehow blocked off to him, you know what? He'll end up going to Italy or somewhere, only 10 years younger than the original Brady did.

It's the way of the world, I'm afraid.

That comment/trail of thought is completely off the wall :o



* - High attrition rate, but enormous rewards for the lucky few

And thats what makes it all worth it :rolleyes:

[Kildare Lad]

I agree with alot of what EalingGreen said, if a young lad in this country gets offered a chance to play for Liverpool/Man Utd etc, not many would turn it down. Wouldnt blame them either.

Its almost as if LoI teams dont even look for young players around schoolboy clubs down here, the player nearly has to look to join the club and even at that it would more then likely be just the u.16/17s or whatever, and personally, I dont see a big attraction of playing for Bohs u.17s especially if you will have to travel for 45 mins or so each way to training two or three times a week.

A more realistic aim for the LoI and FAI I think would be to stop players who fail in England from dropping out of the sport altogether, I believe Glenn Hoddle has some academy that does something like this in Spain?

[micls]

Ealing Greens points only stand if the lad is the best of the best. Expected to be the next big thing, and yes in that situation theres not much you can do.

But right now a huge percentage of teh kids going over are only 'maybes' there's not much outlay for the english club so theyl have them over and see how they develop. If it were a case that the club had to pay for teh family etc to move for every single child then there would be a lot less kids brought voer, only the best of the best.

That would mean a lot more incredibly talented younsters who can develop in the LOI. An example is meyler that we sold last year. He developed in Cork and was noticed when he turned 19, got his move to Sunderland and the club got decent money out of it. Yes, the best players will of course leave but if its in a scenario where LOI clubs are part of the chain, and get decent compensation then our league will improve greatly.

[ifk101]

Or does anyone seriously consider that e.g. the next Liam Brady is going to sign for Bohs at the age of 16, stay there for 4 or 5 years, then transfer to Arsenal for £5 million? For even if every club in Britain was somehow blocked off to him, you know what? He'll end up going to Italy or somewhere, only 10 years younger than the original Brady did.

It's the way of the world, I'm afraid.

I know you look at the quality of our national side in envy but the reality is that Ireland only "produces" 1 or 2 Liam Brady quality players every 5 years or so, if that.

The issue is that we are not maximising the potential player pool we have at our disposal if we are depending on the academies of a foreign country to nurture our talent.

Can LOI clubs potentially offer what British clubs can at academy level? I don't think so but I don't see why Ireland needs to mirror how things are done in the UK to keep players at home. Perhaps a more centralised youth development system is needed. Regardless we need to become more inventive in how we approach youth development rather than seeking to copy what others have and are doing.

[EalingGreen]

I agree it wont be stopped but if it can create a better environment for kids nearer to home then its better than the current situation, which for the most part is disgarding kids as dropouts at 19-20 while being in the care of said UK for the last 4 years.
I am nowhere defending the situation whereby big EPL clubs "farm" huge numbers of talented youngsters from Ireland and elsewhere, in the knowledge that 90%(?) of them won't make it, and so will be "culled" and left to go back to whence they came, disillusioned and unqualified to do much else.
But that was not my point.
Rather, I was asking how you can tell a talented 16 y.o. (and his family) who is being offered an Academy deal at a big club that he must not accept it, in favour of an offer by his local LOI club.
In practice, the kid isn't going to listen; moreover, unless something changes drastically, it would be completely illegal under EU law.



Is this the point where we should start crying? The in-humanity of it all, how dare LOI Clubs try and develop players in there own country.
What on earth are you on about? :confused: Where did I suggest that LOI clubs not be allowed to develop Irish kids in Ireland?
It is quite simple. When faced with counter offers from e.g. Bohs and Liverpool, the great majority of talented Irish 16 y.o.'s will choose Anfield every time.
And imo to try to prevent this would be wrong, both since it goes against individual freedom of choice, as well as being illegal.
Would you stopm a talented young tennis player going off to Florida? Or if a young band of musicians started to make waves on the local Dublin music scene (pubs, clubs etc) and got spotted by A&R from a top London or New York record label, are you seriously suggesting that they should not be allowed to accept a recording contract etc, since that would mean they would no longer be playing in their old haunts, for the benefit of the locals?
Should U2 have been forced to stay in Ireland? You can't even force them to pay their bloody (minimal) taxes in the ROI, ffs!



What??? I think you are forgetting one thing, Liverpool etc. would never invest that much in a player (and his family) unless they knew he was worth it. What if he got injuried. Too much of a gamble and even harder to disgard the player afterwards with parents in tow
It's already happening. Man U moved the entire Evans family from NI to Manchester. Aresenal did the same for the family of Cesc Fabregas. Fair enough, those are v.wealthy clubs chasing exceptional young talents, but even lesser clubs will still be able to offer greater inducements to families of less talented Irish kids, than even the wealthiest* of LOI clubs at home.

* - If there are any who could be decribed as "wealthy, that is!



I think you are holding UK clubs in too high a regard. Something to help you with that would be to look at the numbers that do go over and how many make it and how many dont and at the cost of their education.
There is no way they will start playing for players education. And maybe Liverpool could afford it but Barnsley and Crewe cant afford it so it wont happen.

No, I am merely making one suggestion as to what clubs might do if their present ability to exploit EU Employment laws was closed off to them. Many clubs already have quite sophisticated educational and training schemes which they offer to their Academy intake. If they had to extend those, I've no doubt they would.
After all, it's just what professional sports do in the USA with College scholarships etc.



That comment/trail of thought is completely off the wall

Your stating something does not make it so. Perhaps you might like to refute with reasoning of your own my contention that if e.g. the next Liam Brady were prevented from joining Arsenal or some other English club at 16 y.o., that he wouldn't be able to find a better offer elsewhere than his local LOI club? Get real!
When major Brazilian and Argentinean clubs cannot retain their best young players when the big European clubs come calling, what hope is there for LOI clubs? :rolleyes:



And thats what makes it all worth it :rolleyes:
Everyone knows that a losing Lottery ticket is worthless. But that doesn't stop millions of people buying them before the draw, in the hope that theirs is that "one in a million", despite it looking just like every other ticket.
At least talented young 16 y.o. footballers can point to their previous track record as evidence of why their "ticket" will stand out from everyone elses ticket when they hope to win (football's) millions.
And that's before you get football scouts and agents etc whispering in their ear, bunging them a nice advance, and assuring them that they will be the next Liam Brady...
And everyone knows that those self-same scouts and agents will be nowhere to be seen 4 or 5 years later, when an older and wiser 21 y.o. slinks chastened and disillusioned back to where he came from, with little money and fewer prospects.
And if you think that's bad, what's even worse is that if somehow every Irish kid was prevented from joining an English club until, say, he's 21, by then they'll all have fallen so far behind the Africans, Asians and South Americans etc who will have taken their Academy places in England, that they will NEVER catch up with them.
I was watching Kevin Doyle on TV the other day. I'd guess that in terms of basic talent, he has as much to offer as the likes of Robbie Keane, Richard Dunne or Stephen Ireland, for instance.
My guess is that the reason why he is hoping to make it to the EPL via a mediocre club like Reading, rather than already being there like those others, is primarily because he did not get the same career development opportunities as they did.
More to the point, had less obviously gifted teammates like Stephen Hunt been prevented from moving to C. Palace at 16, then via Brentford to Reading, the chances are he wouldn't be earninga full-time living in the game anywhere (imo).
P.S. I have nothing against either Doyle or Hunt: quite the contrary, I wish both well.

[peadar1987]

I know things aren't going to change unless we're inventive about this, so what do people think of this for an idea (I haven't thought it through in detail, I'm just throwing it out here for the sake of discussion)

The FAI set up an academy with branches in the major cities, taking in the best and brightest of young Irish footballing talent to work with internationally renowned coaches. The players are centrally contracted to the academy, and clubs can apply to sign the players on loan. When the players reach the age of 18, they are sold to fund the running costs of the academy, including paying player wages. Okay, so the best players are still going to end up going to Britain, that's pretty much unavoidable, but the rest of the players are still going to be driven individuals with a few years of academy training behind them, and will be looking for an LOI club to join (Hopefully, as this should be the attitude fostered during the years at the academy).

Now making the gross assumption of a reasonably competent National Authority to run this academy, what are the opinions on the idea?

[redalan]

I think that the idea of centrally contracted players is an idea worth looking at. I don't think that anyone would deny a player's right to make the dream move to United or Liverpool but I think that there needs to be a mechansim to protect those that don't make it at lower league clubs. I think Fahy is a good example. He proves, to a certain extent, that the LOI is comparable in quality with the Championship and by keeping young players in Ireland that the quality of the league will continue to improve. The administration of the scheme would be a challenge but not beyond the FAI/LOI.

A lot of good young players are lost to the Irish game due to the lack of a safety net.