It beggars belief

[lopez]

To give an insight into the minds of the more forward thinking (or rather this is laughingly how they like to see themselves) click on the link below, posted by MD (which in case you haven't guessed, is short for Mad 'No I didn't name myself after a well known former Oi band bass player, glue sniffer and sectarian murderer, Honest!' Dog)

http://www.ourweecountry.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1185

On Page 14 of today's Sunday Life there is a full page devoted to the Our Wee Country website. However as you've probably guessed by the title and the content of this Forum, its not exactly positive.

I was alerted to it by an irate Ed but the article is only in the printed version of the paper. For an article, which has a go at the NI fans website, its quite ironic that it doesn't seem to be available in the online version of the Sunday Life.

Unfortunately I can't be arsed typing the article out but it a nutshell its about us calling ROI fans beggars. Apparently that’s racist, although I'm sure its still OK to slag off the England football team in similar terms.

While labelling us as bigoted at least the author (Stephen Breen, whoever the f**k he is) acknowledges that we aren't sectarian but quotes one message which seems to refer to the ROI as a country itself rather than the football team. The vast majority of times, this term is used is to refer to the ROI football team and their fans, in a similar way that the West Brom supporters call Wolves fans Dingles, without slurring the entire population of Wolverhampton.

Anyway the worst thing of all is Jim Boyce’s reaction, its absolutely awful. First up comes this classic "The IFA have a great relationship with the FAI". This in itself is ridiculous. They steal our players, try to get our home game with them moved to a neutral venue, refuse to fly our flag at a friendly in Dublin and illegally call themselves Ireland, but hey that’s OK because the IFA has a great relationship with them. Absolutely ridiculous and if the IFA had any guts, they would simply refuse to have any dealings with the scum from Merrion Square.

Another classic from Boyce is "I know of this website, but I must confess I never use the website". Good to see you’re in touch with the opinions of Northern Ireland fans then Jim. Indeed if he was a bit more in touch, he’d realise that its the people on this website who have worked their asses off to try and improve the atmosphere at Northern Ireland games. We took the risks and the IFA takes credit. Indeed, because I use the term beggar, according to Jim, I’m now in "a very tiny minority of so-called fans". Thanks a lot Jim.

Honestly I can’t make up my mind which I’m more cross about. The article, which implies you’re racist for daring to have some football rivalry with the Greatest Fans in the World, or Boyce’s ill thought out and offensive comments.

Anyway, I’m sorry but I see absolutely nothing wrong with us referring to the ROI team or their fans as Beggars and I’ll continue to do it. I support all attempts to kick racism out of football, but football rivalry itself is not racist.


Well looking at this sh*te you can tell how, as one wag on the GAAboards refers to it, ourweeminds is such entertaining reading for us 'beggars'. Still a couple of points need to be cleared up for Sad Dog.

They (the FAI) steal our players.

Hmm? Last time I looked NI was a free country to make the choice of what Irish team you played for and what passport you bought. This goes as much for Northerners (be they Catholic, Protestant or Jewish) as it goes to the 15 supporters in Donegal who go to Windsor Park. Still if Dog Breath really thinks Merrion Square are holding anyone against their will he should speak to the police.:rolleyes:

They try to get our home game with them moved to a neutral venue.

This refers to the FAIs request that Belfast, at the height of the worst murder spree outside the early seventies, was maybe not the best place to play their game with the North in 1993. Perhaps naive and un-sportsmanlike but really, considering that Northern Ireland were eliminated, you'd think the people who'd be most peeved with the FAI's chuztpah would be Denmark and Spain.

They refuse to fly our flag at a friendly in Dublin.

Diddums, they didn't!!!! Ahhhh.:rolleyes: Still it's OK for the IFA not to fly our flag at Windsor Park (I'm beginning to suspect that this chap has just dropped his cojones because he should have mentioned the three other games at Lansdowne where his flag wasn't flown, just to point out what awful people we are).

...and illegally call themselves Ireland.

Being a bit of an anorak :o I have Ireland programmes going as far back as the 1949. From 1954 all programmes have the home team 'Republic of Ireland' on the cover...unlike Northern Ireland which was still using 'Ireland' into the late sixties.

if the IFA had any guts, they would simply refuse to have any dealings with the scum from Merrion Square.

Beggars? And now scum. :eek:

because I use the term beggar, according to Jim, I’m now in "a very tiny minority of so-called fans".

Definitely not Dog Sh*te. But then that's why so many Nationalists wouldn't touch Windsor Park with yours.

[Beavis]

The fact that we don't refer to Northern Ireland in a similar manner is that we don't even consider them as a rival cos they're so cr@p.:D I say let them slag us off,let them get caught up in childish name calling while we follow our team to major tournaments and actually celebrate goals;) :D

[TommyT]

This is classic stuff, a bit like watching ''Hearts and Minds'' where for the duration of the Celtic Tiger years there was a report on how the boom was on it's last legs and the southern economy was going downhill-the concept of southern catholics being richer than northern prods doesn't seem to have registered, hence they blindly lift insults from the Rangers Fanzine ''Follow Follow''

[davey]

I've had a browse on this site a few times and to be honest, its excellent.The majority of people on there are just supporting thier team and have no time at all for any sectarian nonsense The question of whether you find the term "beggar" offensive is open to a lot of debate. Personally, I don't . Its all part of footie banter.

Lopez did raise some good points though. I've heard this "stealing" our players a few times and its ludicrous. No-one forces these lads to sign up with us. Adopting the moniker "Mad Dog" hardly points to someone embracing "football for all" - whatever his reasons for the name.

[TommyT]

Originally posted by davey
I've had a browse on this site a few times

So have I and i found them to be an unbelievable shower of ****s. The crowd on irishleagueforums.co.uk are fine though.

[liam88]

Originally posted by davey
The question of whether you find the term "beggar" offensive is open to a lot of debate. Personally, I don't . Its all part of footie banter.


I've had worse ;)

On the subject of stealing players Lennon never came South.

[gspain]

I also post on the site and the article is crap.

The site is not offensive or sectarian.

As for being rivals well no I don't know any RoI fans who see NI as our rivals

[lopez]

Originally posted by davey
I've had a browse on this site a few times and to be honest, its excellent.The majority of people on there are just supporting thier team and have no time at all for any sectarian nonsense The question of whether you find the term "beggar" offensive is open to a lot of debate. Personally, I don't . Its all part of footie banter.
I find this site thoroughly entertaining. The whinging that goes on, the paranoia - the word on the street is that a Taig made that call claiming to be the UVF/UDA, as we were the only ones to benefit from Neil Lennon's retirement - aswell as the 'some of my best friends are Taigs line' has me in hysterics at times. But indeed, who gives a f*ck about the North? This site has been around for eighteen months venting its spleen about us, and hardly anybody here can be arsed returning the favour.

Two things. Firstly, the fact that most of their arguments against us are either hypocritical or fantasy. Secondly and more importantly, is the impression that many posters give of being non-sectarian, and yet slag off the country that almost half the population feel Northern Ireland should be part of. This is the half that the IFA's Football For All is directed at. While Jim Boyce smacks of Colonel Sanders trying to get customers into his outlets after they found a fried rat in their bargain buckets, it must also be added, as the odd lone voice claims in the forum, there is no contradiction between supporting Northern Ireland and being a Nationalist.

Originally posted by gspain
I also post on the site and the article is crap.
Well let's look at what was said.

The majority of people posting on the site - which has no official links to the IFA - do not hold sectarian views.

Therefore only a minority.

'One message read: "We are talking about a country where dishonesty and casual criminality are often viewed as endearing national quirks....'

The only thing wrong with this statement was that it was not the words of an individual but of an article on the web site. Tell me Gary, do you view 'dishonesty and casual criminality' as 'endearing national quirks' of the Irish?

...The Irish football team is full of tinkers, psychotic gypsies, and itinerant tarmackers...

This was directed at Roy Keane. I didn't know he was a member of the travelling community.

...The Republic and their fans went home from World Cup 2002 with only their self-delusion, and whatever they'd stolen from their Asian hosts...

What did you thieve in the orient, Gary? I and everyone I know managed to come away with only souvenirs we bought legally.

Perhaps you'd care to read Breen's and the ourweeminds articles again?
Boyce slams web bigots' own goal (http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=476580)
tales from the underground (http://www.ourweecountry.co.uk/worldcup02.html)

Originally posted by gspain
The site is not offensive or sectarian.
Offensive, no. Sectarian? Do you think that it is ideal or necessary for a football site - one pertaining to be representative of all Northern Ireland citizens and therefore non-sectarian - to put up insignia relating to the British armed forces (posted at the beginning of Dubya's invasion of eye-rak) considering the bitterness felt by many members of the Nationalist community to the British Army? Would you agree that it was also not sectarian that an unofficial GAA board have a 'Vote SF' advert on it during elections?

[NigeSausagepump]

I've had a look at that board and from what I can see, most of the posters seem to be just interested in the fortunes of NI and the perception of their team/country. There do appear to be a couple of lads who take the beggars thing a bit far, but frankly there are a couple of posters on this board who would have not dissimilar opinions towards England. The vast majority of ROI fans that I know don't spend a huge amount of time thinking about the NI team or see them as our football rivals, just as most English fans wouldn't see the ROI as one of their main rivals.

If a couple of them want to call themselves things like Mad Dog and claim people in the Republic are endemically corrupt or form a nation of petty criminals, let them wallow in their own prejudicial stupidity. As far as I can see, most of the posts are unoffensive to this ROI fan and the posters are probably just decent blokes supporting their own team.

[gspain]

Lopez I'm not familiar with the article you menhjtioned but it wouldn't be hard to pull a few articles from this site and say we're all sectarian bigots.

No of course I don't agree with the stuff you quoted. Easy to pick out ok2boo.com too and say all Irish fans are sectarian bigots.

They see us as rivals - I don't nor know no RoI fan who would. Thye made a big deal about a Mickey Mouse friendly win over our 4th team in 1999 and happy to remind them of a certain 4-0 competitive win.

[lopez]

Originally posted by gspain
Lopez I'm not familiar with the article you menhjtioned but it wouldn't be hard to pull a few articles from this site and say we're all sectarian bigots.
This site has no articles. Just quotes from individuals, and people are entitled to think what they like about us. The crowd at the Sunday Life didn't think we were that bigoted though.;)

Originally posted by gspain
No of course I don't agree with the stuff you quoted. Easy to pick out ok2boo.com too and say all Irish fans are sectarian bigots.
ok2boo.com is sectarian. We've had a long and exhaustive debate about booing of internationals with connections with Rangers, most of this site, including you and me, condemning the practice. The difference is that the team, to be PC, that goes by the name of Republic of Ireland has no great minority it is trying to woo back to Lansdowne Road. Perhaps if there was an all-Ireland team tomorrow, then there would.

Any national minority in the 26C has a choice. Follow Ireland or follow someone else. If people wish to see themselves as British coming from Ireland, which at the last count was over 20% of the island's population, then there is nothing I nor you can do about it. I for one am not going to go around calling someone from the border counties a 'plastic Brit' because of their own heritage, because I know what it is like to be born in one country, feel it is not my own, and follow the country (sometimes countries) of my parents.

Northern Ireland is a segregated State between two communities looking in different directions. That bunch of religious bigots (Ulster Independence Party) belonging to the Rev. Hugh Ross who want independence for a 9 county Ulster? How many votes did they get in the recent elections? 0.28% of the vote from forty candidates. Apart from this, everyone is either unionist (British) or nationalist (Irish) and nationalists are bound to support us, even if only as a second team. Therefore the minority, albeit a vocal one, at owc who think we go around beg, borrowing or stealing 'their' players, should get a grip with reality and stick to concentrating on getting nationalist ars*s back into WP, cheering behind their team.

BTW, this so-called 'gentleman's agreement' between the IFA and the FAI is nothing short of illegal.

[On The Kop]

Oh we have touched a nerve haven’t we Lopez. One of these ‘So Bitters’ what with living England and all is it? Some farmer from Mullingar call you English on an away trip?

I always thought Mad Dog was named after Dominic McGlinchey? Anyway he is called that as it is a common name for headers in ‘da north’.

Good to hear you find the site entertaining, interesting you pick up on one comment from one person about the phone call, but hey that fits the agenda doesn’t it?

Interesting the only people upset at Lennon playing for the occupied six where the superprods and the chuckies? Wee bit of black propaganda from a chucky to wander up from Bawnmore and make a call from a phone box in a prod area. I agree very doubtful as you could can depend on some muppet on ‘our side’ doing it but is it not plausible?

You seen a regular visitor on OWC for someone who doesn’t give a f*ck about the North. By the way the fanzine has been going since 1995 and the website since about 1998. We get a few Republic fans on but a lot more chuckys but they don’t last long. As you say no one gives a f*ck about us.

True no doubt in the English shires or south of the Liffey but up in the occupied six many Republic fans (since 88) seem to. Andystown News Irish News etc regularly mention us, be it being ****, an all Ireland team etc etc.

Republic fans in the occupied six are our workmates, they may not be our neighbours but we do socialise with them and we do banter. For someone living on a diet of the Irish World/Echo whatever I can understand this might be difficult to comprehend.

As you seem the expert, come on tell us what we need to do for Football for All. I for one will be most interested as no doubt Jim Boyce will, many on here and on the OWC site.

Does OWC pertain to be representative of all NI citizens? I thought it was a website for NI football fans. Fans who are, were, have family in the forces, and as many have in ‘da south’. Hence the banner wishing our lads and lassies well in the Gulf. Next you will be telling us the wearing of the poppy is offensive?

[lopez]

Browsing through the ourweei.q. forum, I've found that my brief critique of Sad Dog's rant has caused a bit of a stir. SD himself, despite vowing not to 'respond to any of [my] rubbish', while er actually responding, begins by claiming my name is suitable for a 'Mexican' (Mexico, south of the border, geddit?) while adding, 'if you're reading this Gringo, cheers for giving me a great laugh at your expense.' Funny hombre, I was just saying above here, that's exactly what I think every time I come onto ourweeminds.

As for SD's name, one of his mates has just posted here that he named himself after Dominic McGlinchey. Yeah, right.:rolleyes: Frankly I'm beginning to wonder if he chose the name because he shares with the 'wee man' a tendency to wet his bed. (For a detailed account of Adair's enuresis as told to the RUC by a former girlfriend, see pp73 of Mad Dog: The Rise And Fall Of Johnny Adair And 'C' Company by David Lister and Hugh Jordan, Mainstream Publishing.)

Sadly, Dog Breath has vowed not to 'lower myself to post [here].' Ahhhh! The poor thing. He even thinks I'm actually someone who gives a f*ck if he doesn't. No reasons are given and I can only speculate that: A. Someone called Johnny already has the MD username on foot.ie; B. Dog Sh*te's mother, for his own sake as much as anyone else's, won't allow him to use more than one football forum at a time; or C. and the most likely, he hasn't the intelligence nor the maturity to back up his arguments on this forum.

Oh and Doggy, I know you're reading this. Don't expect me to come over onto your site either. After what happened to Gary Glitter, it's not such a good idea to talk to little boys via the internet.:eek:

[lopez]

On the Kop.

Are you the c*nt who started the ourweeminds strand on Sunday called 'beggers (sic.) forum', misspelling beggars twice in your request for a website to have 'some banter with some beggers (sic)', before it was mysteriously removed?:rolleyes:

[Andyh]

Chill out Lopez,

Maybe if Stephen Breen browses this site as well and reads your rants, he might have the making of next weeks story.

[Duncan Gardner]

Lopez. Just adding briefly to your reply to "Mad Dog" (who takes his nickname from a habit of diving into the pool shallow end when inebriated). The FAI is widely seen by NI fans to have breached the 'gentleman's agreement' not to pick NI-born players for the Republic, or vice versa. On the other hand, for reasons I've covered on other threads, there are still hardly any such players in representative teams beyond youth level.

I'm surprised you think that the Danes and Spaniards would have been more irritated by the Republic's attempt to get the 1993 game moved outside NI. For an illustration of this, suggest you wait until ETA next murder a few Madrilenos in a car bomb, then ask the Spanish FA if they mind playing the forthcoming World Cup game in France or Italy?

You know, he has a point about flags and national anthems. Why don't the FAI just (dis)play them? Or better still, agree not to have any at any games, home or away?

BTW, 'Mad Dog' is I believe 26. But then again you're half a lifetime older and using equally childish language, eh? You could have answered all his inaccuracies and warped logic without lapsing into nursery Spanish...

Beavis. A fair point that the Republic have little to gain from seeing NI (or Wales, or Scotland) as close rivals, given our recent lack of success. But then again you've qualified for exactly ONE of the last five of those major tournaments. I wouldn't get too carried away!

Davey and NigeSausagePump. You make fair points, most readers and contributors are only interested in the team and have little time for sectarianism or arguing party politics.

Tommy T. Why thanks, and a happy New Year to you too. Actually, I'm a regular of all three and I have to say Irish League Forums has the greatest proportion of abuse and inanity.

G Spain. Good reply to Stephen Breen. Would you agree with me, though, that owc needs rather more moderation?

Lopez, again. I'm afraid you're reacting to this more obsessively than almost everyone on OWC. Why, as you keep claiming to be uninterested? But if you must. There is no credible suggestion that nationalists made the threatening call about Lennon. It came from a phone box in Rathcoole, where 99% of the population is unionist. I think you'll find the nationalist vote in our most recent election was a modest 40.5%. Not quite half, if you must nitpick.

The (already partly successful) aim of the 'Football for All' campaign is to make Windsor- and Irish League grounds generally- unthreatening and more pleasant places to watch games. You said yourself after visiting in June how much the atmosphere had improved, and this is widely commented on by regulars. But insofar as a particular group of currently non-attending fans is targetted, it is clearly unionists who either watch other sports (rugby, ice hockey), or don't bother at all. It's widely recognised that most northern nationalist football fans support the Republic. Some, like myself, are relaxed about that; Mad Dog and maybe Jim Boyce less so. But all recognise the reality. But hey, if people want to come to a game, or support both teams, what's the problem?

The article is "crap" because to me it distorts the view of a small minority (while admitting its size, to be fair). But this is a standard journalist's technique, as recognised on OWC. And in any case many think the publicity is worthwhile.

While I opposed the OWC site displaying a pro-troops banner at the beginning of the war (after all, OWC is about a football team), it's stretching a point that this is sectarian. This is not to downplay opposition to the war and British militarism generally, from Irish nationalists and others. But in this case, I don't think there was any sectarian intent. 'Tonic for the troops' support for a war generally increases at the beginning of hostilities, as often seen in the past.

Our wee i.q. Oooh nurse, my sides!

http://www.ourweecountry.co.uk/forum/search.php?search_author=Balti+Jaam+Session

http://www.ourweecountry.co.uk/forum/search.php?search_author=Mad+Doggerel

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I'm surprised you think that the Danes and Spaniards would have been more irritated by the Republic's attempt to get the 1993 game moved outside NI. For an illustration of this, suggest you wait until ETA next murder a few Madrilenos in a car bomb, then ask the Spanish FA if they mind playing the forthcoming World Cup game in France or Italy?
Let's cut to the chase. England, Wales along with Spain and a few other countries didn't play in NI for say three years in the seventies until 1975. Meanwhile, Scotland refused to go back until 1980. However very few words of criticism on OWC towards them. In fact for some NI fans they merit more support in rugby than the Irish team. Nearest rivals my arse. Let's cut the crap. This is about the Republic full stop and it's about nationalism versus unionism.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
You know, he has a point about flags and national anthems. Why don't the FAI just (dis)play them? Or better still, agree not to have any at any games, home or away?
Why didn't the IFA do likewise? Oh I'm sorry there was a local law that prevented the display of the Irish tricolour. Did the Flags and Emblems Act also cover national anthems?

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
BTW, 'Mad Dog' is I believe 26. But then again you're half a lifetime older and using equally childish language, eh? You could have answered all his inaccuracies and warped logic without lapsing into nursery Spanish...
I did. The dissing was for calling me a Mexican. You know how the Spanish react to being called Mexicans. Anyway are you the Jeff to Mutt above. What's wrong with MD speaking for himself, or are you worried I might get out the sweeties?

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Lopez, again. I'm afraid you're reacting to this more obsessively than almost everyone on OWC. Why, as you keep claiming to be uninterested? But if you must. There is no credible suggestion that nationalists made the threatening call about Lennon. It came from a phone box in Rathcoole, where 99% of the population is unionist. I think you'll find the nationalist vote in our most recent election was a modest 40.5%. Not quite half, if you must nitpick.
I'm interested in anything directed towards the Irish team and the FAI.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
The (already partly successful) aim of the 'Football for All' campaign is to make Windsor- and Irish League grounds generally- unthreatening and more pleasant places to watch games. You said yourself after visiting in June how much the atmosphere had improved, and this is widely commented on by regulars.
Best atmosphere in a long time. But then you don't have the event junkies jumping the queue for seats.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
But insofar as a particular group of currently non-attending fans is targetted, it is clearly unionists who either watch other sports (rugby, ice hockey), or don't bother at all. It's widely recognised that most northern nationalist football fans support the Republic.
I've read Jim Boyce saying that he wants more nationalists at WP (Guinness Book of Ulster Sports circa 1995 or 1996). I've yet to see him say the same about unionists.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Some, like myself, are relaxed about that; Mad Dog and maybe Jim Boyce less so. But all recognise the reality. But hey, if people want to come to a game, or support both teams, what's the problem?
That's what I've been saying.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
The article is "crap" because to me it distorts the view of a small minority (while admitting its size, to be fair). But this is a standard journalist's technique, as recognised on OWC. And in any case many think the publicity is worthwhile.
Agreed.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
While I opposed the OWC site displaying a pro-troops banner at the beginning of the war (after all, OWC is about a football team), it's stretching a point that this is sectarian. This is not to downplay opposition to the war and British militarism generally, from Irish nationalists and others. But in this case, I don't think there was any sectarian intent. 'Tonic for the troops' support for a war generally increases at the beginning of hostilities, as often seen in the past.
Was this the same on the unnoficial web sites of England, Wales and Scotland?

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Our wee i.q. Oooh nurse, my sides!
Sorry.:( Thanks mate for the good word earlier, just don't expect a curry with that pint. Baalti Jam Session? You been binge eating again? And don't forget to vouch to Golden Boy that I'm a regular at Kenilworth Road.:rolleyes: Hate to disilusion the poor c*nt.

Originally posted by Andyh
Chill out Lopez,

Maybe if Stephen Breen browses this site as well and reads your rants, he might have the making of next weeks story.
Chill pill about to be taken. Re Breen and the story? Don't the Irish media only target NI supporters over bigotry? They wouldn't be interested coming on here would they? Sure I'm only havin a bit o craic.;)

[On The Kop]

Originally posted by lopez
On the Kop.

Are you the c*nt who started the ourweeminds strand on Sunday called 'beggers (sic.) forum', misspelling beggars twice in your request for a website to have 'some banter with some beggers (sic)', before it was mysteriously removed?:rolleyes:

No but was the guy who removed it. Bit odd that it should be posted just before the Sunday Life ‘story’ broke don‘t you think?

Whoosh, way over your head reference Mad Dog McGlinchey (decreased). You really are one of these blokes on the mainland who buys all the books about ‘the struggle’ aren’t you. There is a book about Adair!?! Bet it is on the shelf beside one about Billy Wright and the UVF. Catch yourself on! You really are an Irish Post reader aren‘t you! :o

He was nicknamed Mad Dog because he is a header. As I said before it suits your agenda to read what you want into that name. (If only you knew MD :rolleyes: )

As I said before you really seem to spend a lot of time and seem to have a lot of interest in OWC for somebody who doesn’t give a f**k about them.

Still waiting for your ‘Football For All’ plan by the way.

[Duncan Gardner]

No words of criticsm from OWC to England and Scotland? I'm afraid you haven't been reading carefully. The broad feeling on OWC, and as far as I can see among fans generally over more than 20 years, is quite harsh towards both. We still haven't forgiven them for dropping the Home series and refusing to visit in the 1970s. Messrs MD and OTK are particularly strong in their condemnation, by the way.

So actually no, we aren't picking on you alone.

While not a fan of the F&A Act (which I think inflames rather than calms the situation, though it doesn't cover anthems), I'd have no problem with dropping the anthems at Windsor and Lansdowne, if not everywhere else.

I didn't realise I was MD's spokesman, as "you could have answered all his inaccuracies and warped logic without lapsing into nursery Spanish" should have made clear. Again- do read more carefully, please.

Although Jim Boyce would probably repeat that comment now, there's no mileage in concentrating on nationalists. They support the South and will keep doing so even if we qualify for the next three or four tournaments. Too much has changed since the 1980s.

When hostilities started earlier this year, the large anti-war majority was quickly replaced by 60-70% support in polls for British newspapers such as the Guardian, Independent etc., let alone the usual pro-war suspects. Given all that, I'd be surprised if some of the undoubtedly hundreds of England fan forums didn't have similar banners. But as I said before, I don't think OWC's was sectarian in intent anyway.

'Balti Jaam'- it's a gritty bar in Tallinn train station apparently. Expect to see me there chatting up the Russki sailors, either that or in the Depeche Mode theme. Just can't get enough, baby. I'm off curry for my NYR.

To save OTK the trouble of reading Adair's biog, it can fairly be filed under 'sensational true crime' rather than sociological analysis. The real 'revelation' is that the pint-sized hardman couldn't shoot straight and is only directly responsible for one murder. There's a good bit on his time in the Oi band though.

[lopez]

Originally posted by On The Kop
No but was the guy who removed it. Bit odd that it should be posted just before the Sunday Life ‘story’ broke don‘t you think?

Welcome to foot.ie. Marty, editor of OWC. An honour indeed and nice of you to join us, even if your first post was a bit like what I'd imagine the product of locking a chimpanzee in a room with a PC and a line of Medellin's finest nose candy. As for it being 'odd' that the thread was posted just before the Sunday Life story (no quotation marks from me) broke, please expand?

Originally posted by On The Kop
Whoosh, way over your head reference Mad Dog McGlinchey (decreased).
If you thought for one minute that I believed that your mate named himself after McGlinchey, you've been watching too many re-runs of 'The Comedians' (There was this thick Irishman...). DG's explanation is at least plausible.

Originally posted by On The Kop
You really are one of these blokes on the mainland who buys all the books about ‘the struggle’ aren’t you.
Your point?

Originally posted by On The Kop
You really are an Irish Post reader aren‘t you!
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by On The Kop
He was nicknamed Mad Dog because he is a header.
Not Dominic McGlinchey!

Originally posted by On The Kop
As I said before you really seem to spend a lot of time and seem to have a lot of interest in OWC for somebody who doesn’t give a f**k about them.
Please see my reply to DG.

Originally posted by On The Kop
Still waiting for your ‘Football For All’ plan by the way.
Perhaps the day that people with tricolours go along to support NI alongside people with NI flags, as people with NI flags go to watch Ireland play rugby (I've seen this with my own eyes) or, albeit tentatively, their local Gaelic football or hurling county, with NI flags alongside people with tricolours, is the day that you have 'football for all'? Bit Martin Luther King I know, and a game against the south is of course the exception, but there are similar examples.

At Spain games at the European Championships in 1996 and 2000 I saw Basque and Catalan flags. One Irish mate with me, you know the sort that would bring the Ikurrina (basque flag) to an old firm game, was shocked when he saw this. Busted that misconception totally. Basically, there is no, or at least should not be, a conflict between supporting NI and being a nationalist, unless the perception is that nationalists are not welcome at NI games unless they behave like uncle Remus.

Less than 1% of the population want an independent NI if DG's barometer of voting is taken, so we can forget about NI identity and all that boll*cks. What we are stuck with then are two communities: Unionist and Nationalist. Sticking up symbols, no matter how well intentioned, of the British army whose record amongst the nationalist community is hardly great, makes the arrival of that day longer. Until then, as DG suggests, the 'lost generation' will continue to follow the Republic.

As for some farmer from Mullingar calling me English on an away game, no. But there's been loads of times that other Irish fans have. You never been called a Paddy by the natives here?

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
No words of criticism from OWC to England and Scotland? I'm afraid you haven't been reading carefully...Messrs MD and OTK are particularly strong in their condemnation, by the way.
The condemnation is nowhere near that of the Republic and you know it DG. How many threads on OWC criticise Scotland compared to those about the Republic, the bias of the IRFU (we knick your players in football but won't play them in rugby) and the GAA? As for Marty, yeah I see he has no time for the Jocks which is understandable considering what happened to him and his Finnish missus, let alone the shafting they gave the IFA over abstention from WP and dropping the BC. But hey, maybe Scotland thought they had special rights above everyone else. Anyway they did the same (along with Wales) to the Irish rugby team in 1972, arguably costing them a grand slam.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
While not a fan of the F&A Act (which I think inflames rather than calms the situation, though it doesn't cover anthems), I'd have no problem with dropping the anthems at Windsor and Lansdowne, if not everywhere else.
I take that's when the two countries play? That's what's always happened in the past. So why the hump?

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
The real 'revelation' is that the pint-sized hardman couldn't shoot straight and is only directly responsible for one murder.
Aw shucks! You've given away the plot you b*stard.;)

[Duncan Gardner]

Lopez. The convention on boards like these is that you don't reveal others' identity if they use an alias. Particularly when the talk turns to paramilitarism. I know OTK made little effort to hide his real name and is quite likely relaxed about it, but the principle applies still. By the way, he is not the only moderator on the OWC site.

As for your line in abuse, it doesn't become you. In whatever language it's expressed. I'm surprised the foot.ie moderators haven't deleted some of it already. Frankly, and regardless of what a few NI fans think, you are not doing this site any favours.

Anyway, it's six o'clock and work is over for the year. End of sermon, mas cerveza. Buen nuevo ano.

More on Friday, perhaps...

[On The Kop]

Umm if I had really wanted to hide who I was I wouldn't have had subscribed on here using my ourweecountry.co.uk address would I? Once again making something out of nothing :rolleyes:

Is it not strange that on the Saturday before an 'exclusive' something like that appears on the OWC message board. Funny it gave this forum as one to wind the beggars up on didn't it. It was deleted when I saw it, not because it called you beggars but I find that when muppets go onto another board winding them up we get them coming onto ours returning the serve.

So who did we nickname Mad Dog after then? Lets go further who was Mad Dog (Adair) nicknamed after? You have the book :eek: As I said whooshhh.

I don't do drugs but if I ever start I'll pop up to Luton and see you for a hit as clearly you are in another dimension if that is your idea for football for all! One small but significant point, why would you bring the flag of another football nation (the tricolour) to 'support' Northern Ireland?? Still I’ll pass it on. I'll also make a note the the RAF Dog Display team is not welcome for pre match entertainment as it may offend.

By the way, when 'both communities' supported NI we had adverts in the programme about joining the 'British' army and you don't need to guess whose bands played the anthems. Take a wee peek at the 79 programme against you lot.

Like this concept of 'there is no, or at least should not be, a conflict between supporting NI and being a nationalist'. I've been told on many an occasion that is where the conflict is. In supporting NI you are legitimising the state! Isn’t that why the Andystwon News and Irish News are so keen for that All Ireland side? It certainly not because it will improve your team is it?

Bit scary you knowing what happened to me and my wife at Hampden, you been checking back for more ‘exclusives’?

By the way I rarely get called 'Paddy' but have no problem with it, after all I am Irish. You come across as the type you feels he has to be more Irish than the Irish to prove himself, bet you know more about the ‘conflict’ than I do and I only grew up in it!

[Jimb O'Reilly.]

Can Duncan tell us where this derogatory term for the Ireland supporters, 'beggars' came from?

[On The Kop]

Some might say it is just another name for Gypos or Tramps.

Rangers fans use it to abuse Celtic fans so perhaps it has filtered across from that. I first heard it when somebody shouted it the TV at either highlights of a live game after one of our matches in the old 4 In Hand. ‘C’mon get into these beggars’ or something similar. I remember smiling at that! The Macedonia game in 97 seems to ring a few bells because we watched the in the pub along with highlights of our game from Kiev. Could be wrong, but has been used in the fanzine since 97.

A folk/chucky band are called the Jolly Beggarmen apparently, heard you called that also. Have heard you referred to Pikies recently.

[Jimb O'Reilly.]

Jolly Beggarmen?

Try this link;

http://www.irishrecords.com/40irdrinson.html

[On The Kop]

Originally posted by Jimb O'Reilly.
Jolly Beggarmen?

Try this link;

http://www.irishrecords.com/40irdrinson.html

Ordered it, cheers for the link;)

Not very respectful that a song in praise IRA 'hero' Sean South is included on a CD of Irish Drinking Songs :confused: Then again 'sure it is only a bit o craic'. :(

[Duncan Gardner]

Jimb: I dont know and dont care.

Possibly from some academy of learning though.

Lopez isnt going to treat me to a cerveza.

Lo siento...

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Lopez. The convention on boards like these is that you don't reveal others' identity if they use an alias. Particularly when the talk turns to paramilitarism.
You think that by mentioning the alias of an alias on another board is revealing someone's identity? What do you think will happen? The ra will send Marty an e bomb? Get a grip big man. Otherwise instead of 'Tallinn, hopefully' you'll be putting your OWC location as in a 'straightjacket, helplessly.'

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I know OTK made little effort to hide his real name and is quite likely relaxed about it, but the principle applies still. By the way, he is not the only moderator on the OWC site.
I reckoned the heavy artillery would be brought in at some stage to put me in my place and I didn't reckon MD would come. Beside I doubt the others have the clout to drop a thread.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
As for your line in abuse, it doesn't become you. In whatever language it's expressed. I'm surprised the foot.ie moderators haven't deleted some of it already. Frankly, and regardless of what a few NI fans think, you are not doing this site any favours.
It's called freedom of speech. And its mine.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Anyway, it's six o'clock and work is over for the year. End of sermon, mas cerveza. Buen nuevo ano.
Agus tu hein!

Originally posted by On The Kop
Is it not strange that on the Saturday before an 'exclusive' something like that appears on the OWC message board. Funny it gave this forum as one to wind the beggars up on didn't it. It was deleted when I saw it, not because it called you beggars but I find that when muppets go onto another board winding them up we get them coming onto ours returning the serve.
So we got someone with a mind as narrow as an ant's ar*e instead.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by On The Kop
I don't do drugs...
Neither do I as in my line of work the threat of testing is greater than that for a female Olympic shot-putter.

Originally posted by On The Kop
...but if I ever start I'll pop up to Luton...
which is in Bedfordshire

Originally posted by On The Kop
and see you for a hit as clearly you are in another dimension if that is your idea for football for all!
You can see me at my retirement bash because I'm going to have the mother of all joints in one hand and two fingers up to my bosses on my other.

Originally posted by On The Kop
One small but significant point, why would you bring the flag of another football nation (the tricolour) to 'support' Northern Ireland??
40% plus of NI recognise it as their flag, that's why!

Originally posted by On The Kop
In supporting NI you are legitimising the state! Isn’t that why the Andystwon News and Irish News are so keen for that All Ireland side?
Partly, but then not every nationalist, like every unionist, is so, let's for aguments say, blinkered. FFS, even I followed NI in the seventies when they BC games were on the box.

Originally posted by On The Kop
It certainly not because it will improve your team is it?
We'll never know.

Originally posted by On The Kop
Bit scary you knowing what happened to me and my wife at Hampden, you been checking back for more ‘exclusives’?
I used my memory for that one.

Originally posted by On The Kop
By the way I rarely get called 'Paddy' but have no problem with it, after all I am Irish.
Really!!!:eek: Does that mean, as an Irishman, that you'd support the whole of Ireland to take one democratic plebiscite to decide it's future? Two questions: British or independent. And abide by that vote instead of threatening the legally elected government of Britain into partitioning the country and installing a one-party quasi-independent puppet state in the North? I think I know the answer to that one. Say what you like about 'superprods' - who sometimes aren't even protestant - but at least you know where you stand with them.

Originally posted by On The Kop
You come across as the type you feels he has to be more Irish than the Irish to prove himself
Born in England, Spanish mother. Oh yeah. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by On The Kop
bet you know more about the ‘conflict’ than I do and I only grew up in it!
My cousin nearly walked into the Regents Park bombing in 1982, (I'm sure you know someone injured or killed during the troubles so I'm not trying to score points). What, did you think we all got calls first thing in the morning when the IRA were going to plant a bomb?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by On The Kop
Rangers fans use [Beggars] to abuse Celtic fans so perhaps it has filtered across from that.
Hence why people put it on par with Fenians and Taigs.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Lopez isnt going to treat me to a cerveza.
Only if you promise to behave.:p

[Jimb O'Reilly.]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Jimb: I dont know and dont care.

Possibly from some academy of learning though.



Would that 'academy of learning' be Windsor Park, where it was learnt within the racist / sectarian 'Football for All (except us)' atmosphere?
:eek:

[On The Kop]

Heavy artillery! Think the others, who care, are still laughing at your Football For All idea!

I’ll ask again do you not think it is strange that a message should be posted on the forum titled ‘Beggars’ looking for a forum to wind up some ‘Beggars’ (with this site recommended) 24 hours before an exclusive on the OWC site about calling RoI fans beggars appears in a Sunday newspaper?

40% plus of NI may recognise the tricolour as their flag that's why they support the RoI! You really are in dreamland here. So what would happen, lets say for arguments sake, NI drew the RoI in the Euro 2008 qualifiers? Who would our tricolour waving ‘NI fans’ support?

I’m the type of Irishman who looks fondly back to the old days when we did have a United Ireland, under British rule. We will never have it again but surely I allowed to be Irish and British the same way you can be Scots/Welsh/English and British.

‘Born in England, Spanish mother.’ If you don’t mind me asking why the Republic then? I take it you supported them BC, with no TV coverage/very little media and you grew up in England?

Is Beggars on par with Fenians and Taigs? Why don’t we call you that then? This is what it comes down to isn’t it? Any and I mean any item of abuse to Republic fans is sectarian/bigoted/racist in you and your likes book. Perhaps Mopes or Chips (as in shoulders) might be more appropriate.

Sorry but you do come across to me as a ‘NI conflict junkie‘, got all the books, know all the lingo, bet you have even been over to the ‘six counties’ and seen the red letter boxes, done the ‘up the Shankill down the Falls’ tourist route, posed by the murals but really, you still don’t understand it do you. I grew up there and I don’t. :rolleyes:

Nearly forgot, who was Mad Dog (Adair) named after?

[lopez]

Originally posted by On The Kop
Heavy artillery! Think the others, who care, are still laughing at your Football For All idea!
While the ones that don't will continue to follow the Republic.

Originally posted by On The Kop
I’ll ask again do you not think it is strange that a message should be posted on the forum titled ‘Beggars’ looking for a forum to wind up some ‘Beggars’ (with this site recommended) 24 hours before an exclusive on the OWC site about calling RoI fans beggars appears in a Sunday newspaper?
What are you getting at exactly? If you left the thread then we might be able to see who started it and who replied recommending the foot.ie website. Instead you did a Winston Smith (from 1984 fame) and airbrushed it from history. The OWC forum isn't sectarian for allowing the views of eejits to be posted. It's for printing articles that brush a whole nation (including 40% of NI) as thieves. No I don't think it's strange because there are always snide remarks about the Republic (your greatest rivals of course) on the site so it hardly comes as a surprise. Did you think I posted it? Because if you do, your paranoia is getting more frightening than DG's. Ooooooooh, perhaps the misspelling of 'beggar' was a ploy to portray unionists as illiterate?

Originally posted by On The Kop
40% plus of NI may recognise the tricolour as their flag that's why they support the RoI! You really are in dreamland here.
So much for 'Football for All'. Jimb O'Reilly is right: 'Football for All (except us).'

Originally posted by On The Kop
So what would happen, lets say for arguments sake, NI drew the RoI in the Euro 2008 qualifiers? Who would our tricolour waving ‘NI fans’ support?
Who do GAA fans in the North support in county matches against teams from the 26C? Kerry, Cork, Meath? Ditch the sectarianism and you may well be surprised.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by On The Kop
[B]I’m the type of Irishman who looks fondly back to the old days when we did have a United Ireland, under British rule. We will never have it again but surely I allowed to be Irish and British the same way you can be Scots/Welsh/English and British.
The majority wanted Home Rule (autonomy found in Germany and Spain) but that wasn't allowed. Then the majority wanted out. It's called democracy. I support your right to be British-Irish just as there are thousands born in Britain of Irish parents with Irish citizenship. You have a right to argue for the re-unification of Ireland with Britain. I support the rights of a group of Donegal Finn Harps/Rangers fans to be British and support NI, something incidentally your good friend GSpain isn't too keen on. But then who gets treated as a decent geezer on your site? (see the thread Lansdowne Road Redevelopment)

Now then do you likewise: A. Support the rights of anyone in NI to hold Irish citizenship? B. Do you support the right of anyone to peacefully promote the idea of an all Ireland democratic state with autonomy for NI. C. Do you support the right for anyone to promote the idea of an all-Ireland football team? D. Do you support the right of anyone born in NI of Irish citizenship, should they be good enough, to play football for whichever Ireland they fancy?

Originally posted by On The Kop
‘Born in England, Spanish mother.’ If you don’t mind me asking why the Republic then?
Groan!! I thought you would have twigged by now. I'll give you a little clue: I used to call him daddy!

Originally posted by On The Kop
I take it you supported them BC, with no TV coverage/very little media and you grew up in England?
Holland September 1981 was my first game, so yes. All away games bar one (Iceland 1983) until Jack took over. Brilliant times.

Originally posted by On The Kop
Is Beggars on par with Fenians and Taigs? Why don’t we call you that then? This is what it comes down to isn’t it? Any and I mean any item of abuse to Republic fans is sectarian/bigoted/racist in you and your likes book. Perhaps Mopes or Chips (as in shoulders) might be more appropriate.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by On The Kop
Sorry but you do come across to me as a ‘NI conflict junkie‘, got all the books, know all the lingo, bet you have even been over to the ‘six counties’ and seen the red letter boxes, done the ‘up the Shankill down the Falls’ tourist route, posed by the murals but really, you still don’t understand it do you. I grew up there and I don’t. :rolleyes:
No need for the apologies. Haven't quite got all the books yet, still to do the Shankill, and not yet posed by the murals. I can see your problems with people reading Irish history. Things were so much better when Irish Catholics were illiterate. As for understanding, you've got a hell of a journey to go to understanding 40% of your neighbours.

Originally posted by On The Kop
Nearly forgot, who was Mad Dog (Adair) named after?
'Mad Dog' Jackie McCarroll. More importantly was who he was named by: Maggie O'Kane (apparently overhearing McCarroll's name at a police station). Never let something like that come in the way of a good story.;)

[On The Kop]

You really can’t see how ridiculous your idea about Football for All is can you?

Tell you what, this is mine, new sporting anthem, new stadium in ‘neutral’ area, no ‘party tunes’, NI colours only (impractical I know), NI flags only (again impractical over the Union flag but most do realise we are supporting NI and not GB and NI). What excuse would it be then? When it comes down to it, it’s that word Northern that is the problem.

Once again reading into things far too much (seems a habit with you doesn’t it) and then calling me paranoid. Perhaps it was just somebody looking to wind you lot up, perhaps it was our friend from the Sunday Life looking to add some spice to the story that was going to be published the next morning. Boy that would look good wouldn’t it when the average punter checked the site out wouldn‘t it?

Again you are missing out / can’t see one important point. We aren’t talking about two separate footballing nations here so be it northern GAA fans, Catalans, Basques or rugby fans at Landsdowne with Ulster flags supporting Ireland it just doesn’t compare.

Don’t see any problem with A, C or D, not sure about B need to think about that, the autonomy part that is.

I support NI because I'm from NI - Northern RoI supporters support RoI because they want to make a statement that they're NOT from Northern Ireland. To me that is a political not a footballing statement, the same political statement those Finn Harps fans are making. Those who choose the Republic over the country they were born in can expect no respect from me, and if I was a Republic fan I would feel the same about those Finn Harps fans. I would reserve my greatest contempt for those players who take advantage of the IFA training schemes from schoolboy age and then cross over but.

As for snide remarks you seem to enjoy these ‘greatest rivals’ digs. Once again (how many times have I said that) perhaps not in Dublin or in your English shires but they certainly are in NI.

It’s called, as you should know, the ‘bleedin obvious’ over your father. What I was getting at is why the Republic and not Spain or England? Was it just because of your father? I take it you grew up in England, formative years mid late seventies? Many guys I know over here from home with kids brought up in England support England to their fathers shame (perhaps a wee bit of rebelling, kids like winning teams, seeing them on TV etc). I can guess in your time very little if any media coverage, no major touroments? So why? That continuing quest to prove you are more Irish than the Irish?

Agree, it must have been brilliant times BC, always enjoy away trips with a small group of fans.

“I can see your problems with people reading Irish history. Things were so much better when Irish Catholics were illiterate. As for understanding, you've got a hell of a journey to go to understanding 40% of your neighbours.”

As I grew up amongst ‘40% of my neighbours’ I understand them alright! With all you have written those first two sentences sum you and your attitude up to a T.

All this from someone who couldn't give a f**k eh. :rolleyes:

[lopez]

Originally posted by On The Kop
You really can’t see how ridiculous your idea about Football for All is can you?
You asked what needed to be done, not if I seriously thought it was plausible. A tricolour at WP is about as acceptable as a pork pie at a Bar Mitzvah when the RoI plays there. I know this London-Irish bloke (half Tyrone/half Clare) who had one out at the NI games at the Mexico world cup. Unsurprisingly got a bit of abuse.

Originally posted by On The Kop
Tell you what, this is mine, new sporting anthem, new stadium in ‘neutral’ area, no ‘party tunes’, NI colours only (impractical I know), NI flags only (again impractical over the Union flag but most do realise we are supporting NI and not GB and NI). What excuse would it be then? When it comes down to it, it’s that word Northern that is the problem.
About as MLK as mine. You want to stop people doing this, wearing that, singing that. You'll need bouncers everywhere and will stop the 'superprods' from coming. South Africa has two anthems. The day after the Saudi game I saw Spain against SA in Korea and there was equality in the colour of SA fans in what is still a deeply divided country. As for 'Northern', yes that is a problem - the Nationalist support was probably greater in pre-eighties when NI were regarded as Ireland for the BC - but it's as much as us being your 'greatest rivals' because of religion and politics, rather than your cultural and religious cousins across the Celtic sea who have shat on you more.

Originally posted by On The Kop
Once again reading into things far too much (seems a habit with you doesn’t it) and then calling me paranoid. Perhaps it was just somebody looking to wind you lot up, perhaps it was our friend from the Sunday Life looking to add some spice to the story that was going to be published the next morning. Boy that would look good wouldn’t it when the average punter checked the site out wouldn‘t it?
I knew you were fishing. You kept banging on about the coincidence etc. and I almost put down Breen along with me, but I thought he could answer for himself. Have you asked Mr. Breen? Fair enough, anyone could have planted that thread, just like anyone could have made that call about Lennon. But you can't disguise the animosity to Lennon at WP (even if from a minority) nor can you disguise the constant remarks about 'beggars' on your OWC nor the fact that you allowed an article to be published that claimed Irish fans were all thieves.
Originally posted by On The Kop
Again you are missing out / can’t see one important point. We aren’t talking about two separate footballing nations here so be it northern GAA fans, Catalans, Basques or rugby fans at Landsdowne with Ulster flags supporting Ireland it just doesn’t compare.
We are also talking about one 'footballing nation' containing two national communities, neither of which is NI nationalism.

Originally posted by On The Kop
Don’t see any problem with A, C or D, not sure about B need to think about that, the autonomy part that is.
I thought that would be ideal. Autonomy would allow you to keep the NI football team (various autonomous regions in Spain have their own teams. Not only the Basques and Catalans but Andalucia and Cantabria which do not have independence movements).

[lopez]

Originally posted by On The Kop
I support NI because I'm from NI - Northern RoI supporters support RoI because they want to make a statement that they're NOT from Northern Ireland.
Northern RoI fans support the RoI because the capital of their nation (as opposed to state) is Dublin and the tricolour is their nation's flag. Partition was an undemocratic British creation. Don't blame us if the border stops at El Paso.

Originally posted by On The Kop
To me that is a political not a footballing statement, the same political statement those Finn Harps fans are making.
It's ironic that I'm getting a lecture about people supporting a team as a political statement from someone that puts up military insignia and statements about war on a football web site. Following your country to me is a political statement. Nationalism is about us and them, and in sport it is, as Orwell said, war minus the shooting.

Originally posted by On The Kop
Those who choose the Republic over the country they were born in can expect no respect from me,
Well this comes down to two groups. NI fans which I have covered above, and us 'Plastics.' Marty, you are quite a blinkered soul, believing that the place you are born is paramount over everywhere else. Have you ever heard of Jus Soli and Jus Sanguinis. Look them up in google or a dictionary. One centres citizenship on the soil (soli), the other on blood (sanguinis). Most countries favour the latter over the former. Germany will give citizenship to someone from Kazakhstan with a German name, eighteenth century ancestors and a war-time Nazi membership card of their grandfather than a German born person of two Turkish parents. Who do you think the German born Turk should support? Turkey or Germany?

True we're talking Germany here not the UK. Except it happens here. The 1981 British Nationality Act discarded Jus Soli. I personally know a Zimbabwean couple whose Hertfordshire born kids' applications for passports had to be vetted, taking three months, even though their parents were here legally. If the granting of their citizenship was guaranteed, why the checks?

Originally posted by On The Kop
...and if I was a Republic fan I would feel the same about those Finn Harps fans.
How many people from Donegal signed the Ulster Covenant? What happens if they re-partition and NI fans west of the Bann are now in the Republic? Is it tough sh*t boys, you're now beggars?

Originally posted by On The Kop
I would reserve my greatest contempt for those players who take advantage of the IFA training schemes from schoolboy age and then cross over but.
Here you have a point. Who were they?

Originally posted by On The Kop
As for snide remarks you seem to enjoy these ‘greatest rivals’ digs. Once again (how many times have I said that) perhaps not in Dublin or in your English shires but they certainly are in NI.
If you say so. What name do you have for England fans? DG says they get slagged as much as us on OWC because they shafted you over the BC.

Originally posted by On The Kop
It’s called, as you should know, the ‘bleedin obvious’ over your father. What I was getting at is why the Republic and not Spain or England? Was it just because of your father?
I love Spain and hope their team wins Euro 2004. I speak Spanish, have relatives in La Coruna and go their as much as I can. Naturally I also support Deportivo (the only club that I actively follow, although after Golden Boy's recommendation, I'm going to give Kenilworth Road a visit too) on Sky and see them occasionally in Spain and Europe (saw them in Eindhoven last month thanks to Michael O'Reilly's flying bus costing me 2p plus taxes). They also have a large support of 2G in London due to Galicia's emigration which means I've got mates here that are supporters too. As a political statement I could have supported Celta instead (someone who knew f*ck all about Spain reckoned Celta carried tricolours and Depor Union Jacks) but declined. England? Never bothered with them. I think I've supported them in one match in my life (against the USSR in 1988).

Originally posted by On The Kop
I take it you grew up in England, formative years mid late seventies? Many guys I know over here from home with kids brought up in England support England to their fathers shame (perhaps a wee bit of rebelling, kids like winning teams, seeing them on TV etc).
I asked DG the question on here some time before: 'Do you have any plastics following the Occupied Six?' He said no and told me that a load of troops promised to come and support you in Germany but didn't turn up. It surprised me in a way (not the troops, but the kids). But then it may be that the NI people you know are British and their kids are too. I know a few following RoI with parents from the North but then their parents don't consider themselves British. Rebelling against their parents? I had my ups and downs with my father as most teenagers, but it didn't sway where my origins are, although I can understand if your father is a thick, feckless, IRA supporting, alcoholic it's hardly a role model. I think many kids follow England because some Irish people do think that being born here makes them English even after christening them Sean or Tara, but you are also right about the media pressure.

Originally posted by On The Kop
I can guess in your time very little if any media coverage, no major touroments? So why? That continuing quest to prove you are more Irish than the Irish?
Not so the little media coverage. Firstly my old man used to get the Irish Press a day late and anyway British newspapers carried reports. Secondly Shoot! (if you are old enough to remember) had a preview of all Irish internationals (We were very much one of the home nations). Thirdly was the number of Irish players in the FL. Compare this with Spain and nothing except when an English club or the national side were playing them or the 1978 World Cup. These along with my father not ramming England down my throat, are the positive aspects of my formative years. The bits you want to hear are the negative aspects. Going to a secular school (my parents were, could we say 'anti-clerical') I was also made clear about my difference from English kids from the start. Coupled with the 'troubles' and you can see where my chips came from. The kids I never bothered too much about (if things annoyed me too much we'd fight and I either won or lost) but there is one event I remember most that still rankles. It was my Scottish woodwork teacher calling me a 'thick Irish b*stard' in front of the class after messing up my work (guess I wasn't cut out to be a carpenter). It was also the day after 'my country' had been hammered 4-0 at Wembley, because he continued to cite that team's performance as evidence for my genetical stupidity. The date? 8th February 1979.

Originally posted by On The Kop
Agree, it must have been brilliant times BC, always enjoy away trips with a small group of fans.
Small group trips are great and we still get some. However the BC days were not all one coach and the driver. The Holland game mentioned had 5,000 Irish there according to the Dutch paper De Telegraaf (if I remember the Daily Mail cited 3,000 while the FAI said 7,000) for a match that almost got us to Spain. We've got this bloke in the south who thinks he's Ireland's answer to Manolo because he's got this tricolour saying Hello from him (later improved with the addition of a travel company). I read (I think) in some FAI programme or publication about the ill-fated Eircom Park that he reckoned there was just 200 fans at that game. Unsurprisingly I must admit I don't remember him or his flag BC on the small trips let alone the big ones. However you could hardly have called us the 'greatest supporters in the world'...and it's not because of the size of our support if you know what I mean.

Originally posted by On The Kop
“I can see your problems with people reading Irish history. Things were so much better when Irish Catholics were illiterate. As for understanding, you've got a hell of a journey to go to understanding 40% of your neighbours.”

As I grew up amongst ‘40% of my neighbours’ I understand them alright! With all you have written those first two sentences sum you and your attitude up to a T.
Looking back I reckon my neighbours were no different than those in the Balkans if given the opportunities: ('they were so nice. I can't believe they took my father and brothers and then shot them.') As for education, well you're the one with the problem about my knowledge of Ireland.


Originally posted by On The Kop
All this from someone who couldn't give a f**k eh. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

[On The Kop]

So you weren’t serious about the tricolours on the Kop then. Silly me. By the way we had some tricolours at the game in Italy, I was even waving one to wind up Mad Dog, you can imagine what happened to it.

From Windsor Park being a Prod Fest on international nights we have come to a point were anybody trying to start up ‘party tunes’ is shouted down. What is wrong with pointing out to people you are going to Windsor to support NI not Rangers and you are not there to partake in a Prod Fest. As I say impractical to stop people wearing what they want but ‘Rangers shirts’ are one of the reasons, like Windsor Park being in a loyalist area :o , for Catholics in any numbers not to home games. Slightly different than you spaced out idea (which wasn’t serious I now understand).

We haven’t tried to disguise anything! Some of us call you Beggars, it’s part of football banter, so what if you are offended? Isn’t that the point of ‘childish’ name calling? The article, most people realise is a bit tongue in cheek, is very amusing. If it offended you then that is a bonus.

‘We are also talking about one 'footballing nation' containing two national communities, neither of which is NI nationalism.’ So why then aren’t the ‘Brits’ who voted for Unionist parties pushing for an UK team? You say following your country is a political statement, what statement are they making by following Northern Ireland? We are two footballing nations, that why we got to the WC in 1958, 1983 and 1986 and you in 1990, 1994 and 2002! Have you pointed this out to FIFA and UEFA yet?

Perhaps I was a bit harsh saying ‘Those who choose the Republic over the country they were born in can expect no respect from me’. Perhaps I should have made it clear I was talking about that in a NI context. If I have kids , no doubt born in England, I would like them to support NI.

‘Northern RoI fans support the RoI because the capital of their nation (as opposed to state) is Dublin and the tricolour is their nation's flag.’ - As I said, they are making a statement they are not from Northern Ireland so don’t expect any respect from me.

I grew up in a ‘Nationalist’ town and remember a fancy dress parade during the town carnival (must have been 82). Some of the less imaginative kids dressed as footballers with bits of card hanging from there back with Gerry Armstrong, Mal Donaghy, Martin O’Neill, Catholic kids hero worshipping Catholic players playing for their team, Northern Ireland. I still rip the **** out of a few ‘nationalist’ mates when I’m home (some of my best friends are Catholic btw ;) ) reminding them they sat round the TV in my parents house watching the Mexico 86 games with me, cheering on NI. Why the change since 86, just the RoI getting to Euro88? The team as it always had players from both sides of the divide?

Supporting the troops in Iraq really ****es you off doesn’t it. Not in my name was it? As it was British, not Irish troops fighting out there it wasn’t in your name. I sent copies of the fanzine out to the RIR when they were out there also. Seen the photo on the OWC Forum yet, just for you that one, hey we even donated the proceeds of our ‘do’ to the Poppy appeal. Lots of stuff on the website not football related why the problem with that. Slight deference from supporting those 2 Scots Guards or the guy who tried to slot Eddie Copland isn’t it?

‘What happens if they re-partition and NI fans west of the Bann are now in the Republic? Is it tough sh*t boys, you're now beggars? ‘ - No they would still be NI fans but living in another country. 80 years down the line, as I said before if there grandchildren supported NI I would, if a RoI fan, have little respect for them.

Need to look up the names of those players, one from Derry, was at Palace, going out with the Derry girl from Girls Aloud. Another was captain of the U16’s a few years back.

I wouldn’t say England fans get slagged off as much as you lot. Then we don’t have the local media shoving them down our throats, their ‘fans’ in our workplaces walking about in our streets slagging us off do we?

First I’ve heard about all these soldiers supporting us in Germany. Met some squaddies from NI in Dortmund but certainly not any major numbers. Loads turned up in Cyprus, no doubt the same happened when you played there.

The problem I have is that your ‘knowledge’ of Northern Ireland all comes from books! You give the impression want us to be all sash wearing paramilitaries as it is easier to demonise us, the name ‘Mad Dog’ a prime example. The quest to be more Irish than the Irish continues…… You still don't give a f**k about us eh?

I’ll give you the last word as this is going nowhere and to be honest is boring the tits off me. Fire away.

[lopez]

Originally posted by On The Kop
I’ll give you the last word as this is going nowhere and to be honest is boring the tits off me. Fire away.

Goodbye

[lopez]

Originally posted by davros
Lopez,
As a'prod' in that fine'tradition'...
Can I just get my rosary beads out?

Originally posted by davros
...can honestly say based on my experiences in the osc.,a significant no.are a bunch of paranoid bigoted f*cks,who it's a waste of time arguing with!For'ulster unionism',read Pig-Headed arrogance!
They are when they're head of an on-line fanzine/forum offended by the fact that I was questioning the fairy tales and alias of a pre-pubescent bigot...sorry poster and the seemingly unhealthy interest in soldiers of an army groupie.

Originally posted by davros
DG,despite his wide girth...
He don't look so fat in that picture you sent me.

Originally posted by davros
...seems to grasp that not all our fans like/respect them.....& despite his'shame'of a 'taig'grandad(Albeit,one who served in Crown forces)...
Easy on the taig grandad in the Crown forces. I had one of those :eek:

Originally posted by davros
...& numerous faults too many & frequent to chronicle here....at least he has a miniscule grasp of how the other'side'lives.......
Go DG! Go DG! Go DG!:D I good word for Duncan from the hood!!

Originally posted by davros
ML & his ilk,are narrow-minded bigots like many Unionists from the LVF to the Alliance party.....they just define different'means'to reach their goal of continual suppression of nationalist(Or Catholic!) culture.....he does not espouse paramilitarism,but the ultimate aims are the same.It's ironic the ethos of Protestantism,about radical demonstrable change is so radically Rejected in this context.
Marty has left the building.:(

Originally posted by davros
NB.There are 'atheist'mavericks like FB,who claim there is no higher 'power ';
Does the good doctor know there are people like this in God's country

Originally posted by davros
FINE,but why get so animated about holding onto an archaic colonial outpost,populated by many bigoted planters,whose only purpose of justifiable existence is to maintain their position based on their religion,originally taken by illegal means.
Mind you, looking at the attempt by His Disgrace John McQuaid at making Ireland into the Vatican's answer to Iran, who can blame them?

Originally posted by davros
I personally despise Bob.Mugabe...
Join the f*cking queue.

Originally posted by davros
...but the general point of returning land/resources to the indigenous population(Cue Unionist revisionist history,about how they did the Irish a'favour',about how they'developed'the north!)cannot be ignored.One message to you despicable bigots & your crass institutions from Prod.Nationalists(in the south & beyond....);INTERGRATE with the natives OR F*ck back to Scotland,Bolton et al!
What happened to multicuturalism?

[gspain]

Just to clarify my view son the East Donegal NI fans.

I do suppor the right of anyone to support any team/country they choose.

I don't know a lot about the guys in question and if they feel an ethnic connection to NI - consider themselves British etc etc which is what I think I'm reading from Lopez's quotes then fair enough.

My real concern would be that they feel they have to support NI because they are protestant. We've had many protestant players, administrators and football here was always inclusive when other codes were not.

[lopez]

Originally posted by gspain
Just to clarify my view son the East Donegal NI fans.

I do suppor the right of anyone to support any team/country they choose.

I don't know a lot about the guys in question and if they feel an ethnic connection to NI - consider themselves British etc etc which is what I think I'm reading from Lopez's quotes then fair enough.

My real concern would be that they feel they have to support NI because they are protestant. We've had many protestant players, administrators and football here was always inclusive when other codes were not.
I don't know anything about them apart from what is written on their site. Rangers and FH? A strange combination for some people but I'll think you'll agree at least they follow their local team, unlike a fair few in Ireland, North and South.

Firstly we can assume that this is down to ethnicity, although if I remember, their visits to WP have been recent, which brings us to question 2. Protestants do follow Ireland - Dav above is CofI and the late Tony Booth, the former chairman of the London RISSC, was also CofI. But so too was Sam Maguire, so it's not the religion part. Forget it. Too much is made of that angle as seen from Jim Sheridan's load of cack The Boxer as watched on ITV last night.

What isn't welcome at Lansdowne Road by a significant part of the crowd is anything to do with Rangers - even former players. This may well be the catalyst for these fans. If so, then we are now no better than Northern Ireland. At least on this board there are few willing to defend this practice.

[gspain]

Originally posted by lopez
I don't know anything about them apart from what is written on their site. Rangers and FH? A strange combination for some people but I'll think you'll agree at least they follow their local team, unlike a fair few in Ireland, North and South.

Firstly we can assume that this is down to ethnicity, although if I remember, their visits to WP have been recent, which brings us to question 2. Protestants do follow Ireland - Dav above is CofI and the late Tony Booth, the former chairman of the London RISSC, was also CofI. But so too was Sam Maguire, so it's not the religion part. Forget it. Too much is made of that angle as seen from Jim Sheridan's load of cack The Boxer as watched on ITV last night.

What isn't welcome at Lansdowne Road by a significant part of the crowd is anything to do with Rangers - even former players. This may well be the catalyst for these fans. If so, then we are now no better than Northern Ireland. At least on this board there are few willing to defend this practice.

The east Donegal NISC had a banner at a game in Windsor I attended - think it was denmark 90 or maybe Lithiania 92 - don't think it was one of our games there. They have been around over 10 years although not very prominent as far as i know.

Yes we do have many protestant followers players etc.

We also have Rangers fans who also support us. This would only become an issue in the past couple of years with the morons at Lansdowne. It may be too big a leap to assume a hidden agenda of these people but if allowed to prosper they could succeed in making our national side a Catholic/Republican icon.
The Superprods at Windsor effectively do the same thing.

Whether the GAA is sectarian/racist or not is open to debate but they are effectively a Catholic organisation and protestants don't play their games. Sam Maguire and Jack Boothman are exceptions.

[lopez]

Originally posted by gspain
The east Donegal NISC...have been around over 10 years although not very prominent as far as i know.
Probably although got this from their web site - 'The first trip to Belfast was made by a few fans independently of each other versus France Wednesday 18th August 1999'.

Originally posted by gspain
We also have Rangers fans who also support us. This would only become an issue in the past couple of years with the morons at Lansdowne. It may be too big a leap to assume a hidden agenda of these people but if allowed to prosper they could succeed in making our national side a Catholic/Republican icon.
The Superprods at Windsor effectively do the same thing.
I'm not supporting this, but the hard facts are that only 5% of the population of the 26C is Protestant. I know loads of English (not plastics) RCs who think they are more loyal to the queen than any Orange Lill from Sandy Row. I'd doubt they'd let a few nutters from the fringes of Calvinism to swing this.

Originally posted by gspain
Whether the GAA is sectarian/racist or not is open to debate but they are effectively a Catholic organisation and protestants don't play their games. Sam Maguire and Jack Boothman are exceptions.
I'd suggest this is down to the schools they attend, and where there is a different sporting curriculum. Do they play Gaelic Sports at Wesley College or Middleton? I don't and have never played any Gaelic games because of where I grew up and the school I went to. I'm hardly an ideological bedfellow of the EDNISC.

[Beavis]

Originally posted by lopez

I love Spain and hope their team wins Euro 2004.


Just as I was reading through Lopez,I see you were supporting both teams and the World Cup and had to ask...Who did you cheer for on that fateful night in Korea?

[gspain]

Lopez appreciate the numbers are small - RoI is 93% RC according to the last census but it is still important.

BTW comments were passed in the U.S. during the 94 WC that the Irish fans must be racist as although blacks play for the team how come all the fans are white?

[gspain]

Originally posted by davros
er,not quite on behalf of the Dub.mixed-race Chinese & 2 Irish-African fans I've met @ Lansdowne.................plus yours truly.....!

I know it is not true. And Ireland is a lot more mixed than it was 10 years ago,

We had 3 black players in our team and I can see how they cam eto the conclusion but obviously not true.

Of the 6 Irish fans in Bursa the night before our 99 playoff 2 were German based Iranian Muslims who had been following us since Euro 88.

[JohnB]

Popular thread this. I'm interested to see that earlier in the thread, supporting the troops in Iraq or, more accurately, having a debate on the war was seen by Lopez as unacceptable on a football forum. I can't see how getting rid of a maniac like Saddam was a bad thing, but there you go.

Also, I find it strange that some of the most strident anti-OWC comments on both this and the GAA web site come from people who weren't even born in Ireland or who have mixed nationality. I think it's something to do with having to over compensate for not quite feeling Irish enough. Sad.

On a more positive note, I wish the Republic all the best in the WC qualifiers. You'll find that amongst NI supporters there's a broad range of opinions on the RoI team, many people (probably not the majority though) wish the Republic all the best unless they're up against us, or doing a bit too well. Very good site, by the way, nearly as good as ours. ;)

[WeAreRovers]

Out of sheer boredom in work I checked out OWC and some of the stuff on there "beggars" belief". The threads about the WC qualifiers against Wales and England are particularly sad, especially the bit about England and NI fans getting a hard time off the media - the poor wee bigoted, racists.

They're even talking about having a bit of a booze up together when the Hackett wearing English scum come to Belfast. Also the ignorance about Wales and Welsh culture is shocking coming from so called British people. They might get a bit of a shock when the Cardiff City "Welsh not British" fans arrive in Belfast (with some of their mates from Dublin ;) )

KOH

[lopez]

Originally posted by Beavis
Just as I was reading through Lopez,I see you were supporting both teams and the World Cup and had to ask...Who did you cheer for on that fateful night in Korea?
I was wearing a green shirt that day.;)

[lopez]

Good morning JohnB, one of my wee fans from ourweeminds, and welcome to foot.ie. First of all it's great to be up there in the pantheon of the enemies of the little boys on OWM - Derek Dougan, Jerome Quinn, Stephen Breen, that bird who wrote the excellent play 'One Night In November' (I thought it was sh*te until I found out how much it offended the ranks of WP). Maybe they can't be arsed replying to your comments, which is appalling manners I know, but it's not something I'm going to be accused of.

I saw on your OWM profile that you are a 'research scientist'. It could be a p*ss-take (we had someone on here claiming to be a gynaecologist as a laugh - the clue was that he spelt it wrong) because you assume that I'd hail The Boxer as a realistic portrayal of NI society two hours after I called it a load of cack (I might have to re-evaluate that opinion now, though). Where's the research here? In fact if you are the benchmark for British science, it's no wonder my shares in British Biotech have gone down quicker than Ron Jeremy on Tracy Lords in Anal Slutz 3. :eek:

On OWM you called me 'a bigot masquerading as a pseud...who's uncertain of his identity and over-compensates to show his ultra nationalist loyalty...[and] a loser' while Davros was 'narrow minded.' First of all there is no point addressing questions to Baalti Jam Session, aka Duncan Gardner (who must be ruing the day he ever confessed to knowing me) as he has gone AWOL and is more than likely back on the Ruby Murray big time. Secondly, your statement is about as laughable as Bernard Manning calling me and Dav fat, racist, b*stards. Uncertainty of our identity? Again can you believe that someone can come out with such a statement from a part of the world where revelry in a defunct empire, celebration of the victory of a Dutch Homosexual 300 years ago, and dated fascination with Britain's highest paid dole drawer and her dysfunctional family, long after anybody else gave a toss, are seen as positive attributes, all part of a pathetic effort to elevate themselves as more 'British' than those on the 'mainland'? This is what is truly sad here. I and others on this forum, the first generation born abroad, often the only difference between them and their parents is the place they were dropped, often finding that they have to apply for citizenship for the country of their birth as if they were like their parents, are simply honouring their heritage. The day we man the barricades in Kilburn, Hammersmith or Digbeth and unilaterally declare them parts of the Republic, while confining the minorities to second class citizenship, is the day you can lecture us on our 'ultra nationalist loyalty.' Still at least you know there's only one 'g' in bigot, unlike a few of your fellow posters.

As for military matters, if you again done your 'research', you would find that my objections were against a site of a team aiming to embrace a community with a history of animosity to the British Army, placing insignia of this force on the homepage. Personally you could put up a picture of Billy Wright in a thong for all I care, but it hardly helps the IFA in its ill-fated quest for 'football for all.' Where did I say I objected to either the discussion of the war, messages of good luck, or that I am George Galloway in disguise? C'mon smarta*se, where did I write any of these things? Again there's that little word called 'research' which you seem incapable of getting to grips with.

As for that photograph left for me by the Army Groupie - sadly he has left this site for the sanctuary of OWM - boo, hoo, hoo - so he can talk about military matters with his Boys Brigade mates and pretend to know the first thing about any of it- I would have thought you would have got some tans to hold the flag. I hold the American forces in great esteem. If it wasn't for them (and the Red Army) we'd be having this conversation in German. I know you'll find a few that will disagree with me IF your newly found blood brothers come over to Belfast for their World Cup qualifier, but I personally find nothing positive had there been a Nazi victory...apart from never having to had endure Vanessa Feltz and David Baddiel on the telly. What happened to the Army Groupie's RIR pals. Tell him to f*ck off and stop bothering them? And what was that about the flag being the wrong way round? Talk about petty! Was it someone's birthday part and you all overdosed on that cheap supasava Asda cola and birthday cake. I wouldn't know, let alone care, which way the NI flag goes but I do know that the Stars and stripes on one of the soldier's arms was round the right way. And what was that with blacking out the faces and rank? Did you expect that Osama reads the site? (It's funny I know, but not that funny!) Shame you didn't black out the US flag, as that would have sent me bonkers having to look at what I thought were tans.:rolleyes:

I see that we also have BeggarBhoy on here now. BB, I hope you wiped your nose before coming on this forum. Don't come crying to us when you step on someone's toes on OWM, as anybody with a pseudonym like yours will. I can see Dog Breath checking up on all your quotes now. Wonder what he, and the Chief Constable of the Bigotry Police, JohnB, will make of your statements about booing at Lansdowne Road on another thread (you're not getting any clues from me mate. Find it out yourself!)

For anybody else from OWM reading in, thanks for your comments. It has made me laugh senseless and given my plastic mates down the pub plenty to laugh at as they go on OWM looking to have a giggle, erm, sorry, looking to be offended. I've had a visit from two detectives from Operation Ore concerning the fascination by so many pre-pubescent boys for a Mr. Lopez, but apart from that my ego has been boosted big style, which I presume was not the original intention. JohnB, I know you are looking to replace Dog Sh*te on my signature below. Forget about. I don't want to be responsible for the poor lad's rejection if I take it off.

[lopez]

Originally posted by davros
It wasn't that Green Depor.no.,you were wearing the last time,a significant Irish-Scots cultural sporting assoc.,played in London?!
Perhaps it should have been!;)

[lopez]

Originally posted by gspain
We had 3 black players in our team and I can see how they cam eto the conclusion but obviously not true.
I've always come to the same conclusion with Holland. I've seen just one black fan in Orange despite watching Ireland against them 10 times. Unlike Ireland - well before 1998 at least - non-white faces are hardly uncommon in the Netherlands.