Premier League 2 with Old Firm ?

[OwlsFan]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2009/04/18/no-headline-115875-21288238/

Somehow, I doubt if it will happen but who knows.

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting.

I wonder could a Scottish League without the OF open up the possibility of a Celtic League style cross border tournament?

[Neish]

This story appears every few years(almost as much as the stone roses reform stories). Can't see it happening but then agian it was in The Mirror

[Razors left peg]

If Cardiff and Swansea can do it I could never see any reason why Celtic and Rangers couldnt

[holidaysong]

If Cardiff and Swansea can do it I could never see any reason why Celtic and Rangers couldnt

Cardiff and Swansea didn't leave the LOW to join the English set up though. They were in the English set up before the LOW even formed. Indeed, the LOW was only set up so the FAW could keep their national team. It's a completely different situation to what the Old Firm want to do. I can't see UEFA or the SFA allowing it to happen.

This will be backed by yo-yo clubs such as West Brom, Wolves, etc. but I can't see it happening. One club being promoted from the Football League to PL2 is a joke.

[DeLorean]

Cardiff and Swansea didn't leave the LOW to join the English set up though. They were in the English set up before the LOW even formed. Indeed, the LOW was only set up so the FAW could keep their national team. It's a completely different situation to what the Old Firm want to do. I can't see UEFA or the SFA allowing it to happen.

This will be backed by yo-yo clubs such as West Brom, Wolves, etc. but I can't see it happening. One club being promoted from the Football League to PL2 is a joke.

Ya I must admit this was the point that I had the biggest issue with really. I can't see why this wouldn't remain at 3 to give the football league clubs a fighting chance of progress.

[holidaysong]

I can't see why this wouldn't remain at 3 to give the football league clubs a fighting chance of progress.

That is the key point though for clubs such as Wolves, West Brom, etc. It gives them a much greater chance of remaining in the elite. Other wise, it'd just be a case of renaming the Championship the PL2 and bringing the division under the auspices of the PL rather than the FL.

[Gather round]

It could happen in principle, but in practice CeltGers and RangTic moving would likely be unpopular with

a) other leading Scottish clubs, who would lose the income from Old Firm games while still carrying the cost of upgrading their grounds (as insisted on by RangTic and CeltGers)

b) the English clubs who would lose their places to the gruesome twosome

c) some English Police, local authorities etc. who wouldn't want the baggage of more troublesome fixtures

d) Old firm fans unused to not winning almost every game they play. At least initially, even if co-opted straight into the English Prem, who's to say they wouldn't struggle against relegation?

Sealing off English D2 (ie championship) from D3 is a separate issue. D2 wouldn't be an elite, just a rump of clubs protected from slumming it in a bad year. Their chances of going up to D1 for a while would be increased, but not their likelihood of doing any better having got there. They wouldn't have any more money- the Champions' League clubs cream off more and more each season.

With due respect to the mighty Wolves, they aren't a yo-yo club in recent years. One season in the top division since 1984...

[DeLorean]

That is the key point though for clubs such as Wolves, West Brom, etc. It gives them a much greater chance of remaining in the elite. Other wise, it'd just be a case of renaming the Championship the PL2 and bringing the division under the auspices of the PL rather than the FL.

Well not really though because they would still be much more secure in the sense that the PL would consist of 36 teams instead of 20.

[Gather round]

36 clubs wouldn't be an elite comparable to the present 20, even if the prize money available doubled and the biggest four teams constantly qualifying for the CL didn't take all of it.

The thing is, calling D3 'League 1' doesn't make it any more elite. You're still two steps away from the real elite (or arguably three, if the first four places in D1 are predictable not just every year but probably for years to come).

[DeLorean]

36 clubs wouldn't be an elite comparable to the present 20

True. In fact associating the word elite with the likes of Hull and Stoke is pushing it as it is!!

[Schumi]

I don't see how this would be passed by 14 Premiership clubs as the article says is required. An 18 team top division with 2 of the places presumably being taken by Glasgow clubs would leave the current 15th placed Premiership club being relegated. They'd be mad to vote for the change.

[DeLorean]

I don't see how this would be passed by 14 Premiership clubs as the article says is required. An 18 team top division with 2 of the places presumably being taken by Glasgow clubs would leave the current 15th placed Premiership club being relegated. They'd be mad to vote for the change.

Celtic and Rangers are being proposed to begin life in PL2. Clearly this would be the 2nd tier of English football (ie.the Championship) but not as we know it. They would have the same financial packages as PL1. I think any club which would foresee the possibility of relegation in the not so distant future would go for it as it gives them some security. I don't think the clubs would have a problem with Celtic and Rangers taking 2 PL spaces as there would still be 34 more places up up for grabs compared to the existing 20. Basically the whole point of it is to make it less damaging financially for a club (namely Bolton!!) to be relegated. I think it's an interesting idea but more than one team should be relegated from/promoted to PL2 in a given season.

[Sheridan]

Scotland should have its membership of UEFA and right to field a national team revoked if this ever happens.

[holidaysong]

Scotland should have its membership of UEFA and right to field a national team revoked if this ever happens.

Can the SFA actually legally stop the Old Firm from going off to the English League though or can they only withhold their European spots?

[Weatherman]

Cardiff and Swansea didn't leave the LOW to join the English set up though. They were in the English set up before the LOW even formed. Indeed, the LOW was only set up so the FAW could keep their national team. It's a completely different situation to what the Old Firm want to do. I can't see UEFA or the SFA allowing it to happen.

This will be backed by yo-yo clubs such as West Brom, Wolves, etc. but I can't see it happening. One club being promoted from the Football League to PL2 is a joke.

Yeah but swansea and cardiff still have to answer to the FAW, regarding sending off's and so on. cant see why the old firm cant join and still have to answer to the SFA?

[holidaysong]

Yeah but swansea and cardiff still have to answer to the FAW, regarding sending off's and so on. cant see why the old firm cant join and still have to answer to the SFA?

The FAW won't nominate Swansea or Cardiff for their European spots though, would Celtic and Rangers be willing to give up European football to join the Premier League? Maybe they would..?

[Gather round]

Celtic and Rangers are being proposed to begin life in PL2. Clearly this would be the 2nd tier of English football (ie.the Championship) but not as we know it. They would have the same financial packages as PL1

BL, you aren't explaining here how English Division 2 would generate this extra money. I can't see any way in which D2 strugglers (maybe teams like Blackpool, Doncaster etc. from the current season) would get anywhere near the income from prize money, TV deal that teams like Villa, Everton, Spurs etc. could expect.


I think any club which would foresee the possibility of relegation in the not so distant future would go for it as it gives them some security

Abolishing or severely restricting relegation from D2 might give security (although it risks atrophying the league, without the possibility of promotion from below). That's completely different from the point above though, surely?


I don't think the clubs would have a problem with Celtic and Rangers taking 2 PL spaces as there would still be 34 more places up up for grabs compared to the existing 20

Do you seriously think Barnsley against Celtic or Rangers (or even Newcastle or Sunderland against one of them) would have the same attraction as the likely Champions' League qualifiers, if either or both the Scots were mired in D2 mid-table?


Basically the whole point of it is to make it less damaging financially for a club (namely Bolton!!) to be relegated. I think it's an interesting idea but more than one team should be relegated from/promoted to PL2 in a given season

Reducing the number from three to two will only protect one team per season, hardly a big deal. Reducing it to one or potentially zero (through a play-off, or maybe a certification scheme where you need a demanding miniumum standard of facilities, say 20,000 seats) risks distorting the whole system by reducing the realistic incentive of promotion to most lower division clubs.

[Weatherman]

The FAW won't nominate Swansea or Cardiff for their European spots though, would Celtic and Rangers be willing to give up European football to join the Premier League? Maybe they would..?

Yeah i think they would! hard to think about it tho because realistically imo they will never be in the champions league again if they join the english league.

[Gather round]

Yeah i think they would! hard to think about it tho because realistically imo they will never be in the champions league again if they join the english league

Maybe they feel confident of earning more from the English TV deal than they'd lose from the CL prize money? Anyone know the comparable figures for last year (I know Rangers probably didn't get much for losing to Hearts' feeder team) :)

[osarusan]

It seems that all this time the foot.ie poster Celtic Tiger was the chairman of Bolton Wanderers.

[DeLorean]

BL, you aren't explaining here how English Division 2 would generate this extra money. I can't see any way in which D2 strugglers (maybe teams like Blackpool, Doncaster etc. from the current season) would get anywhere near the income from prize money, TV deal that teams like Villa, Everton, Spurs etc. could expect.

I wasn't attempting to explain how the extra money was going to be generated. I have no idea. In relation to the prize money well that obviously not going to be shared equally but I was under the impression that the TV money was.


Abolishing or severely restricting relegation from D2 might give security (although it risks atrophying the league, without the possibility of promotion from below). That's completely different from the point above though, surely?

Not really with ya:confused:sorry


Do you seriously think Barnsley against Celtic or Rangers (or even Newcastle or Sunderland against one of them) would have the same attraction as the likely Champions' League qualifiers, if either or both the Scots were mired in D2 mid-table?

No, did I say something to suggest that?


Reducing the number from three to two will only protect one team per season, hardly a big deal. Reducing it to one or potentially zero (through a play-off, or maybe a certification scheme where you need a demanding miniumum standard of facilities, say 20,000 seats) risks distorting the whole system by reducing the realistic incentive of promotion to most lower division clubs.

The amount of relegated teams from PL1 to PL2 would be 2. I didn't really have a problem with this. I was saying that only one team being relegated from PL2 to the Football League was too little.

[Gather round]

I wasn't attempting to explain how the extra money was going to be generated. I have no idea. In relation to the prize money well that obviously not going to be shared equally but I was under the impression that the TV money was

It simply won't be generated, because protecting Barnsley or Doncaster from relegation to D3 isn't of any interest to the people who would provide it (ie, those TV viewers who want to watch the top Prem teams and the CL).


Not really with ya:confused:sorry

You seemed to be linking Celtic and Rangers joining English D2, with protecting other teams in D2 against relegation. At best, they're two separate issues; at worst they self-contradict (because two extra teams would have to be relegated to accommodate the Glaswegians).


No, did I say something to suggest that?

Yes, you said that TV money would be equally shared (so that fifth or sixth in D1 would get the same as 19th or 20th in D2). This implies that you and/ or the TV companies think that the two categories of club are equally attractive to TV. They aren't.



The amount of relegated teams from PL1 to PL2 would be 2. I didn't really have a problem with this. I was saying that only one team being relegated from PL2 to the Football League was too little

Hang on, I didn't mention promotion to and relegation from PL1*. The problem (from the clubs' point of view) with your suggestion of two clubs being relegated from PL2, is that it only 'protects' one more club than now. As you may have guessed, I'd prefer it to be four, but I'll compromise on three ;)

* I'm afraid I think the locked trapdoor is much more likely to come between the present Prem and championship. The Prem could quite likely introduce a two-leg play-off for the second promotion place, or a harsh minimum standard of facilities to get a Prem licence, as I suggested above.

[DeLorean]

It simply won't be generated, because protecting Barnsley or Doncaster from relegation to D3 isn't of any interest to the people who would provide it (ie, those TV viewers who want to watch the top Prem teams and the CL).

Yes, you said that TV money would be equally shared (so that fifth or sixth in D1 would get the same as 19th or 20th in D2). This implies that you and/ or the TV companies think that the two categories of club are equally attractive to TV. They aren't.

Ya I can't see how it would be generated either. Thought I had read somewhere bout the equal TV rights but on reading the article again there was nothing about it!! my bad


You seemed to be linking Celtic and Rangers joining English D2, with protecting other teams in D2 against relegation. At best, they're two separate issues; at worst they self-contradict (because two extra teams would have to be relegated to accommodate the Glaswegians).

I was saying that there are 14 extra PL places available (PL1&PL2) despite the inclusion of Celtic/Rangers and this might still be attractive to a lot of clubs. This depends on how much better of they would be in PL2 compared to the existing Championship.


Hang on, I didn't mention promotion to and relegation from PL1*. The problem (from the clubs' point of view) with your suggestion of two clubs being relegated from PL2, is that it only 'protects' one more club than now. As you may have guessed, I'd prefer it to be four, but I'll compromise on three ;)

I didn't suggest 2 clubs being relegated from PL2. I said that one was too little. I would prefer 3 or 4 myself in fact. I did mention that it is being proposed that only 2 were being relegated from PL1 to PL2 which I don't have a problem.

[Gather round]

I was saying that there are 14 extra PL places available (PL1&PL2) despite the inclusion of Celtic/Rangers and this might still be attractive to a lot of clubs. This depends on how much better of they would be in PL2 compared to the existing Championship

But there aren't, because whether you leave the Championship named as it is, or rename it PL2 as you'd prefer, or just revert to Division 2 as I'd prefer, its status remains the same. Second-rate. There just isn't any way round that, unless you either have 32 teams all playing each other during the season (which would be absurd), or split the 32 on some other criterion (regional?). Which the existing Prem teams wouldn't like, because they'd have less games against each other and more against Barnsley or Doncaster. Which wouldn't make them (the big boys) any happier, believe me.


I didn't suggest 2 clubs being relegated from PL2. I said that one was too little. I would prefer 3 or 4 myself in fact

Glad we agree, but the whole point of the higher number is that weakens, rather than protects as you were previously suggesting, the teams in D2?


I did mention that it is being proposed that only 2 were being relegated from PL1 to PL2 which I don't have a problem

OK, but broadly speaking it's restrictive and inconsistent. If three or four can come up from the third, why not three or four down from the first?

[DeLorean]

Glad we agree, but the whole point of the higher number is that weakens, rather than protects as you were previously suggesting, the teams in D2??

What I was previously saying was that the extra 16 PL places would protect a lot of clubs PL status. However, this is useless if PL2 if just another name for the Championship and you are probably right in suggesting that it is. Depends on what financial package PL2 offers compared to the existing Championship (if there's any difference?)


OK, but broadly speaking it's restrictive and inconsistent. If three or four can come up from the third, why not three or four down from the first?

Well seeing as PL1 will have a reduced number of clubs (ie.18) I think it is reasonable enough that a club less would be relegated. However, if the gap between PL2(or the Championship) and the third tier is getting even bigger, I think it would be fairer to give the clubs below a fair chance of getting in on the action.