View Full Version : Minister to announce measures on gangland crime
Friday April 17 2009
Justice Minister Dermot Ahern is set to announce new measures today aimed at cracking down on gangland crime.
The proposals follow talks between the minister and the Garda Commissioner following the murder of 35-year-old Roy Collins in Limerick last week.
Reports this morning say Mr Ahern's plans to introduce a new offence of gang membership.
People accused of the offence will automatically appear before the non-jury Special Criminal Court, unless the DPP directs otherwise.
The minister is also reportedly planning to publish legislation paving the way for covert bugging operations to target gangland criminals.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/minister-to-announce-measures-on-gangland-crime-1711857.html
I normally don't agree with kneejerk law making, but the situation has got completely out of hand.
Well, I'm not really sure it'd kneejerk - they've been promising this for feckin years, and this current one was what Lenihan was about to publish when he was moved. I'd like to see when it's actually going to come into force, as they're very fond of multiple press releases without actually putting it into law.
And btw, a big :rolleyes: for introducing it in a press conference during easter recess rather than in the Dail where it should be.
dahamsta
17/04/2009, 9:33 AM
Sounds like a stupid law to me. How do you define a "gang"? I was a member of a "gang" that got up to naughtiness when I was a youngfella, are they going to prosecute me?
Don't they say bad crimes make for bad laws?
I don't live in Limerick so can't say how bad it really is but is this an admission by the gardai & public prosecutors that they cannot win? Far from me to defend thugs but would it not be better to convict them of an actual crime like murder?
Lionel Ritchie
17/04/2009, 11:40 AM
Well, I do live in Limerick and can say the situation affects me about as much as it does yourself Pete ...but then again neither of us nor dahamsta nor anyone else here have likely crossed the paths of these gob****es.
The gardai and prosecution services are probably admitting that they can't win because there were already many examples of people who retracted statements and refused to give evidence on the basis they were being intimidated ...and that long before this man was murdered because a relative did supply evidence that secured a conviction.
I'd go much further than this legislation. I think this a situation where the much tabloid-tipped Internment would actually do the trick. **** 'em ...lock 'em up. I know that's going to bring out someone calling my attitude right-wing reactionary and quoting "then they came for the celebrity illusionists but I wasn't a celebrity illusionist so I did nothing" but how bad. I strongly suspect it'd work a treat.
I heard him interviewed on Newstalk over lunch - this is purely about allowing surveillence. His department is still considering wider changes about gang membership and directing criminal activity. So again, as ever with this crowd, nothing like as far as the pre-launch leak would suggest.
Sheridan
17/04/2009, 1:03 PM
The problem with that, LR, is that you'd be handing powers of internment to the most incompetent and politicised police force in Europe. They can and do use their current powers for political and corrupt purposes, I hardly think extending them is in the interest of society in the long term.
anto1208
17/04/2009, 1:06 PM
Don't they say bad crimes make for bad laws?
I don't live in Limerick so can't say how bad it really is but is this an admission by the gardai & public prosecutors that they cannot win? Far from me to defend thugs but would it not be better to convict them of an actual crime like murder?
But thats the problem at the moment how do you convict someone who is all ready in jail, of a murder when he was no where near the incident ?
Everyone know who ordered the hit on Roy collins there is no point locking up this nomark for pulling the trigger because there is an endless stream of these 16-25 years olds willing to go out and murder innocent people.
Where as a law like being a member of a gang will lead to an easy conviction for the head guys in these gangs.
Lionel Ritchie
17/04/2009, 1:21 PM
The problem with that, LR, is that you'd be handing powers of internment to the most incompetent and politicised police force in Europe. They can and do use their current powers for political and corrupt purposes, I hardly think extending them is in the interest of society in the long term.
Fair comment -though I'd hardly say the most politicised ...but I take the point that they are likely entirely corruptable.
But I still think the measure could work ...this isn't some political organisation who'll turn it into a torch of their victimhood. Nobody but the immediate relatives (and not all of them by any means) and assocciates of these ****ers will care less to see them lifted. Either way we need to get down and dirty with these guys.
Covert operations ARE needed though.I know gang members are ultra paranoid though and change phones every week etc but its good.At the very least it slows up what they might be planning as they have to be extra carefull and thus gives Gardai more time.I just hope its not as obvious as The Simpsons when they were being bugged and a "F"lowers "B"y "I"rene truck was parked outside:D.If theres someone in those estates in Limerick going around giving out "free smoke alarms" in the next few weeks then that might not work either.
But they already do the surveillance, it's making it admissable in court which he's bringing in.
osarusan
17/04/2009, 1:59 PM
Everyone know who ordered the hit on Roy collins there is no point locking up this nomark for pulling the trigger because there is an endless stream of these 16-25 years olds willing to go out and murder innocent people.
Where as a law like being a member of a gang will lead to an easy conviction for the head guys in these gangs.
This the key point, and the very reason for the new measures, imo.
If you have a gang where the heads of the gang are getting footsoldiers to do their work for them (drug deals, murders, threats, whatever), I imagine it is difficult to get a conviction of one of the heads, because they are directing, rather than doing. But if being a member of a gang is in itself a crime, it should be easier to get a prosecution.
The question of how a gang is defined, and how a person can be proven to be a gang member, would be the crucial point.
Shilts
17/04/2009, 2:10 PM
Remember what the Brits did in Gibaralter?
They took no prisoners.
Cowen should sanction the assasination of gang members who are at war with the peaceful operation of the state. Get the Army Rangers onboard. Rival gangs could always be blamed if the dogooders are causing a fuss.
Just tail them until they are all together at a meeting and take them out gang by gang. Its the only thing that will sort out the problem once and for all.
Is this our very own Patriot Act?
Shilts
17/04/2009, 2:31 PM
Is this our very own Patriot Act?
Or we could sit down and have a cup of tea with them and ask politely if they would be good boys from now on - maybe that would work. :cool:
Or we could sit down and have a cup of tea with them and ask politely if they would be good boys from now on - maybe that would work. :cool:
I think Willie O'Dea already tried that.
Sheridan
17/04/2009, 3:04 PM
I presume Willie will be leading Strike Team A into Moyross himself, cigar in mouth, waving his Glock around.
shantykelly
17/04/2009, 3:56 PM
Remember what the Brits did in Gibaralter?
They took no prisoners.
Cowen should sanction the assasination of gang members who are at war with the peaceful operation of the state. Get the Army Rangers onboard. Rival gangs could always be blamed if the dogooders are causing a fuss.
Just tail them until they are all together at a meeting and take them out gang by gang. Its the only thing that will sort out the problem once and for all.
im trying to work out whether you're being serious or taking the ****. hopefully the latter.
L37Ultra
17/04/2009, 4:10 PM
Don't they say bad crimes make for bad laws?
I don't live in Limerick so can't say how bad it really is but is this an admission by the gardai & public prosecutors that they cannot win? Far from me to defend thugs but would it not be better to convict them of an actual crime like murder?
Why pick Limerick? Dublin is worse and I bet you are just as affected as gangland crime in Dublin as I am in Limerick. A lot of things have happened close by to where I live in the last few years but to be honest it doesn't have an affected on my daily life.
Of course its better to convict the "gang" members before they commit an actual murder. People are afraid to be witnesses for murder trials now after what happened to Roy Collins.
There are main men in these gangs ordering murders. They get youngfellas to do the dirty work as they have them addicted to drugs which they sell. Therefore, its the young lads commiting these murders who get caught and the gang leaders often get away with it. Thats why these new laws are good because the garda can convict the gang leaders who ordered these murders and also convicting the young lads who are actually pulling the trigger.
Why pick Limerick? Dublin is worse and I bet you are just as affected as gangland crime in Dublin as I am in Limerick. A lot of things have happened close by to where I live in the last few years but to be honest it doesn't have an affected on my daily life.
I don't keep count but plenty of murders within probably a mile of my home. As you say it doesn't affect me. I suppose none of us really care when criminals are killing each other but then you have acses where people caught in the crossfire, killed due to mistaken identify & now killed for what was said.
Surely the Gardai already have surveillance powers? Can't listen in on phone conversations?
NeilMcD
17/04/2009, 11:56 PM
They do but now those conversations can be used in court. Before they could only be used to to help the guards build up a picture.
John83
18/04/2009, 12:08 AM
"No, your honour, we've no evidence that he's ever actually done anything wrong, but we don't like the people he's hanging around with."
Oh yeah, that's a good idea.
37Beour
18/04/2009, 8:00 PM
Remember what the Brits did in Gibaralter?
They took no prisoners.
Cowen should sanction the assasination of gang members who are at war with the peaceful operation of the state. Get the Army Rangers onboard. Rival gangs could always be blamed if the dogooders are causing a fuss.
Just tail them until they are all together at a meeting and take them out gang by gang. Its the only thing that will sort out the problem once and for all.
Totally agree...in particular take out the leaders, the foot soldiers would then fade away. Clearly not the most humane practice and it is a human life but these people cannot be treated as such. They are animals. They have gone beyond thugs just killing other criminals. They have gone up the levels in the last few years, they have no respect for other human beings. You avoid these people like the plague in Limerick City in case you give a wrong look innocently. They are living off their names particulary the younger breed, boys and girls. Its now a cancer that won't be gotten rid of with legislation I can guarantee it.
eamo1
19/04/2009, 12:01 AM
The Gardai kinda helped "eliminate" Martin Cahill the time he was shot.They mysteriously:rolleyes: werent around Cahill's house the morning a IRA Hit Man just happened to be in the neighbourhood.I know that that was taking a human life but a MASSIVE headache for the Gardai and a threat to the public was extinguished when he was assinated.I also realise the IRA aint around now:rolleyes:;) but im sure there's be someone willing to try something.
And the killing of Cahill made a huge difference didn't it ? The point about taking the leaders out and the foot soldiers out will just fade away is just plain wrong. There will always be somebody willing and able to step into the vaccum. As attractive as a "take em out" policy is (and believe me i wouldn't lament the loss of a single one of these low life) I have to believe that the answer is in the rule of law. The alternatives are too scary. Good smart police work, effective legislation, an efficient court system, adequate sentencing and a penal system that works. It's not a quick option or an easy one, but it's the only hope we've got.*
Just as an aside, If the cops do intend to start using, or increase their use of, this technology, then the last thing it surely needs is this kind of publicity. Any criminal with half a brain will be much more careful now.
* Of course there are a lot of arguments to be made too about social policy and what creates these kind of ghettos in the first place.
Good smart police work, effective legislation, an efficient court system, adequate sentencing and a penal system that works.
Or legalise drugs - take the market from under them.
Mind you, whilst one Minister is annoucing a crack down, another is issuing an international haulage licence to a convicted traffiker...
Lionel Ritchie
13/05/2009, 3:54 PM
More dynamic, groundbreaking legislation from our overlords.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0513/crime.html
If I were inclined to intimidate a witness I'd be put right back in my box by the increase from 10 years to 15 years if convicted for doing so.
Why do I suspect we're going to have to wait til it's an Ahern or a Cowen who's murdered before we get something with a bit of balls?
More dynamic, groundbreaking legislation from our overlords.
Its like our own Patriot Act.
If I were inclined to intimidate a witness I'd be put right back in my box by the increase from 10 years to 15 years if convicted for doing so.
True. Pointless change.
Among the other provisions to be included in the new legislation, the expert opinion of senior gardaí as to the existence and operation of criminal gangs will be allowed as evidence in criminal trials.
Could this not be abused? Remember Donegal?
The courts will be allowed to draw inferences from failure to answer questions, failure to account for movements, actions, activities or associations.
Innocent until proven guilty gone?
I am not standing up for criminals but is this constitutional & will it pass without a legal challenge by liberal do-gooder?
anto1208
14/05/2009, 4:20 PM
Licenced handguns are to be banned that should clean up the streets as the criminals allways made sure they had the correct licences for their guns before shooting innocents.
mighty fine law making there. :rolleyes:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0515/lucan.html
A 27-year-old man with an address at Sheriff Street in Dublin City, died in hospital after he was shot by gardaí.
The incident happened just after 12pm today during an operation by the Organised Crime Unit on the Foxborough Roa
A second man is understood to have serious injuries and is being treated in hospital.
Gardaí later arrested three men in the Neilstown area after they stopped what they believed was a get-away vehicle.
A good days work by the Gardai. Regrettable that someone had to die, but its big boy rules. If they can take this whole gang off the streets it'll make a difference.
Sheridan
16/05/2009, 8:49 AM
That's a pretty silly comment to make, Ringo. There are two possibilities - A: The guards knew about this raid in advance and bungled the operation so badly that someone got killed, or B: The decision to use lethal force was made at strategic rather than operational level, and for PR reasons.
Personally I'd rather not see the police force extinguishing the lives of citizens to protect private property in the absence of any threat to the public (that's the government's job!) Conflating this incident with the gang problem in Limerick is a cynical little ploy by the authorities which I'd like to think most people are intelligent enough to see through.
Lionel Ritchie
16/05/2009, 9:40 AM
That's a pretty silly comment to make, Ringo. There are two possibilities - A: The guards knew about this raid in advance and bungled the operation so badly that someone got killed, or B: The decision to use lethal force was made at strategic rather than operational level, and for PR reasons.
Personally I'd rather not see the police force extinguishing the lives of citizens to protect private property in the absence of any threat to the public (that's the government's job!) Conflating this incident with the gang problem in Limerick is a cynical little ploy by the authorities which I'd like to think most people are intelligent enough to see through.
Sheridan, why do you discount the existence of a possibilty C? (though you subsequently hint at it) ....namely that a cop at the scene made a split second call that there was now a real threat to the public, himself or his colleagues. Subsequently there was gunplay and someone died ...No malice aforethought ...just the way the dice fell.
In a way it ties in with your possibility A I suppose but I wouldn't call it bungled purely on the basis a raider died ...a less favourable outcome for sure but not bungled.
There is a possibility the cops knew about the raid, were set up and waiting and challenged the raiders to drop their weapons and get their hands up. NOW Freeze time in that instant ...or slow it down to a crawl at least. A raider reaches for something (probably a weapon) having being challenged and ordered to halt.
What do you do? Wait to see if it's a gun? or a grenade? or whether he's able to draw a bead on you or a colleague? I don't think I'm unreasonable or in favour of summary justice for saying I certainly wouldn't.
I find your possibility B -summary justice for PR sake -somewhat improbable. Even if I thought there were elements in favour of it high up in the Gardai, the government or dept of Justice ...I can't think of many concrete examples of apptitude in the planning and executive end of things that'd be neccessary to bring it to fruition.
And why just off one raider if that's the policy? In a country and culture in love with vulgar statement ...why not wipe out an entire gang in a stroke?
Ringo
16/05/2009, 10:13 AM
That's a pretty silly comment to make, Ringo. There are two possibilities - A: The guards knew about this raid in advance and bungled the operation so badly that someone got killed, or B: The decision to use lethal force was made at strategic rather than operational level, and for PR reasons.
Personally I'd rather not see the police force extinguishing the lives of citizens to protect private property in the absence of any threat to the public (that's the government's job!) Conflating this incident with the gang problem in Limerick is a cynical little ploy by the authorities which I'd like to think most people are intelligent enough to see through.
As someone who's been at the end of several raids, you'll forgive me for taking pleasure in the fact that a gang has been caught in the act. As our laws stands the guards had to wait for the gang to start the raid. The fact that the guy used his weapon is not the guards fault.The Gurds would have had information, but not a minute by minute account of how it was going to run. its not a film.The guy that was shot had a loaded shotgun discharded it. That was his decision. The Garda ombudsman will investigate the case. We have a serious gang problem in Dublin too. Its not just all about Limerick.
Mayo Red
16/05/2009, 10:40 AM
Sheridan, why do you discount the existence of a possibilty C? (though you subsequently hint at it) ....namely that a cop at the scene made a split second call that there was now a real threat to the public, himself or his colleagues. Subsequently there was gunplay and someone died ...No malice aforethought ...just the way the dice fell.
In a way it ties in with your possibility A I suppose but I wouldn't call it bungled purely on the basis a raider died ...a less favourable outcome for sure but not bungled.
There is a possibility the cops knew about the raid, were set up and waiting and challenged the raiders to drop their weapons and get their hands up. NOW Freeze time in that instant ...or slow it down to a crawl at least. A raider reaches for something (probably a weapon) having being challenged and ordered to halt.
What do you do? Wait to see if it's a gun? or a grenade? or whether he's able to draw a bead on you or a colleague? I don't think I'm unreasonable or in favour of summary justice for saying I certainly wouldn't.
I find your possibility B -summary justice for PR sake -somewhat improbable. Even if I thought there were elements in favour of it high up in the Gardai, the government or dept of Justice ...I can't think of many concrete examples of apptitude in the planning and executive end of things that'd be neccessary to bring it to fruition.
And why just off one raider if that's the policy? In a country and culture in love with vulgar statement ...why not wipe out an entire gang in a stroke?
Spot on Lionel, it sort of goes back to the old adage; "You live by the sword, you die by the sword"! I don't know the ins and outs of this particular situation but in general if you're going to be running around with a loaded firearm and posing a danger to the Public and the Gardai, then I'm sorry, it's unfortunate but if you get shot most people myself included wouldn't shed a tear, you made the choice!
Sheridan
16/05/2009, 4:15 PM
LR, there was allegedly one shell discharged, and at least two raiders injured (one fatally, one critically) by Garda gunfire. The unit involved was Organised Crime, not the ERU - they were not responding to a contingency, they were tracking the operation and let it go too far, either through incompetence or design. And yes, I know of at least one instance in which an offender was shot dead in a sting operation despite the fact that the Guards knew he was carrying a replica weapon. The officer himself was later killed by friendly fire in another botched operation, which just goes to show.
Ringo - of course they had up-to-the-minute information, they were tailing the gang! They could have pulled them over for firearms offences and possibly conspiracy at any time, but chose to endanger the security personnel and public by letting it run its course.
The legislation is in place for less than a week and already mission creep is setting in to justify offing people in Dublin with no proven links to "gangland crime", whatever that means. This is how it happens.
Lionel Ritchie
16/05/2009, 4:42 PM
LR, there was allegedly one shell discharged. . ...from a sawn off shotgun. All bets are off thereafter.
....and at least two raiders injured (one fatally, one critically) by Garda gunfire. We don't know how many of them had weapons. How many checks under fire do you expect the guards to make when presented with beligerents who've been told to surrender and who've chosen to open fire?
they were not responding to a contingency, they were tracking the operation and let it go too far, either through incompetence or design.. define 'too far'? You STILL get a relative slap on the wrists in this country for possessing a firearm. They were probably right to try and catch them in the act for armed robbery.
And yes, I know of at least one instance in which an offender was shot dead in a sting operation despite the fact that the Guards knew he was carrying a replica weapon. The officer himself was later killed by friendly fire in another botched operation, which just goes to show. ...they presumably didn't know what ELSE he or his collaborators were carrying. As someone else has already told you -this isn't the movies and these things don't run like clockwork. If they did no-one, especially the garda you mention, would've gotten hurt.
Ringo - of course they had up-to-the-minute information, they were tailing the gang! They could have pulled them over for firearms offences and possibly conspiracy at any time, but chose to endanger the security personnel and public by letting it run its course. Well, your speculation is no worse than mine or anyone elses but it's still just that -speculation. And as I said, they were right to try and nail these guys for armed robbery rather than weapons possession.
The legislation is in place for less than a week and already mission creep is setting in to justify offing people in Dublin with no proven links to "gangland crime", whatever that means. This is how it happens. WTF? New legislation has been announced. So far as I know it could be well into next year before a scratch of it comes onto the books.
LR, there was allegedly one shell discharged, and at least two raiders injured (one fatally, one critically) by Garda gunfire. The unit involved was Organised Crime, not the ERU - they were not responding to a contingency, they were tracking the operation and let it go too far, either through incompetence or design. And yes, I know of at least one instance in which an offender was shot dead in a sting operation despite the fact that the Guards knew he was carrying a replica weapon. The officer himself was later killed by friendly fire in another botched operation, which just goes to show.
Ringo - of course they had up-to-the-minute information, they were tailing the gang! They could have pulled them over for firearms offences and possibly conspiracy at any time, but chose to endanger the security personnel and public by letting it run its course.
The legislation is in place for less than a week and already mission creep is setting in to justify offing people in Dublin with no proven links to "gangland crime", whatever that means. This is how it happens.
these people deserve everything they get, and the gardai involved deserve a medal, they did their job very well, excellently in fact, they prevented a crime, apprehended 5 out of 6 very very dangerous criminals at least one of whom who "allegedly" was involved in the tiger kidnapping and resulting bank robbery in Dublin city centre.
they were tailing the gang to an extent, but obviously there was more than one vehicle, who is to say where the guns were, all the gardai knew was there was a job going down somewhere in Lucan by members of this gang for all they knew the information they had was false, and even if it was true whats the say the guns were on their person while they were travelling to the job? they could have been stashed somewhere offside prior to this and were collecting them on the way.
and it was a National Bureau of Criminal Investgation operation of which the Organised Crime Unit, the National Surveillance Unit and Emergency Response Unit are a part of, along with other units.
and finally no proven links to gangland crime????? please
dahamsta
17/05/2009, 2:14 PM
Your post would be a lot more credible without the "they deserve a medal" nonsense, and the personal comment you got an infraction for. Calm down, think before posting.
I wonder whill the investigation focuds on why the Gardai had to discharge their weapons when they were tracking the gang? Surely could have intercepted the gang before they even left their vehicles?
But surely it would have been just possession of a weapon. I do have resevations about letting these things ago ahead & the threat to innocent bystanders. Very risky. Seems to be in a residential area.
Your post would be a lot more credible without the "they deserve a medal" nonsense, and the personal comment you got an infraction for. Calm down, think before posting.
anyone that puts themselves in the line of fire like that deserves a medal in my opinion, takes a very brave person to do what those people did on friday.
i was very calm when i posted, i put plenty of thought into what i said and i stand by everything i said.
dahamsta
17/05/2009, 6:14 PM
You can stand by what you said all you like, if you can't post without personal comments, you won't be doing it here again, understand?
Sheridan
18/05/2009, 2:24 AM
anyone that puts themselves in the line of fire like that deserves a medal in my opinion, takes a very brave person to do what those people did on friday.
The ones with the body armour, back-up and automatic weapons or the ones with the sawn-off? Right isn't always on the side of bravery, even if we're stupid enough to use that term in relation to either side in this incident.
What's become clear from this incident (and the fact that it's been raised in this thread, and the minister's comments on it) is that an operational decision was made to endanger public safety by pressing for a PR-friendly outcome and sentence, and that that decision cost a man his life.
As for law enforcement not being like the movies, do me a favour. The Guards are the ones who yearn to re-enact The Sweeney on the streets of Ireland, preferably at negligible risk to themselves (their ideal target being a mentally-ill individual with a shotgun broken at the breech.)
As for law enforcement not being like the movies, do me a favour. The Guards are the ones who yearn to re-enact The Sweeney on the streets of Ireland, preferably at negligible risk to themselves (their ideal target being a mentally-ill individual with a shotgun broken at the breech.)
You can compare the two incidents. One was a mentally i'll person, the other a convicted armed robber.:rolleyes:
The 28-year-old armed robber shot dead by an undercover garda on Friday was holding a sawn-off shotgun to the throat of a security van driver and threatening to kill him before being called on to drop his weapon, it has been learned.
Gareth Molloy, 28, from Sheriff Street, Dublin, was shot dead after refusing to drop the shotgun when he was confronted by two members of the National Surveillance Unit.
The unit had been tracking the movements of another man, the 27-year-old leader of one of the most active armed robbery gangs in the country.
Molloy had fired a shot from the shotgun and was again threatening to kill the security man when he was confronted and shot dead.
It is understood that five shots were fired by one garda, after issuing a warning, three shots hitting Molloy and two shots hitting another gang member beside him. The other gang member is described as seriously ill but stable in James Connolly Memorial Hospital in Blanchardstown.
According to Garda sources the dead man was part of a highly active gang of robbers who have been responsible for several armed hold-ups in recent years, including the €7.6m heist from the Bank of Ireland at Dublin's College Green in February.
The leader of the gang is a man in his mid-20s from the north inner city who has been under close surveillance by gardai. He was observed last week following the movements of a G4S cash-in-transit van which regularly carries more than €1m and which visits the Centra shop on Foxborough Road in Lucan.http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dead-raider-was-holding-gun-to-drivers-throat-1742076.html
The 28-year-old armed robber shot dead by an undercover garda on Friday was holding a sawn-off shotgun to the throat of a security van driver and threatening to kill him before being called on to drop his weapon, it has been learned.
If this is true I wouldn't object to the Garda actions although it is still questionable they let the raid go so far that this could happen.
anto1208
18/05/2009, 5:12 PM
If you could arrest some one for future crimes then i guess they could have intercepted them but you cant so you have to catch them in the act. If they shoot at the cops then they deserve to get shot.
The ones with the body armour, back-up and automatic weapons or the ones with the sawn-off? Right isn't always on the side of bravery, even if we're stupid enough to use that term in relation to either side in this incident.
What's become clear from this incident (and the fact that it's been raised in this thread, and the minister's comments on it) is that an operational decision was made to endanger public safety by pressing for a PR-friendly outcome and sentence, and that that decision cost a man his life.
As for law enforcement not being like the movies, do me a favour. The Guards are the ones who yearn to re-enact The Sweeney on the streets of Ireland, preferably at negligible risk to themselves (their ideal target being a mentally-ill individual with a shotgun broken at the breech.)
please dont say things like that when you have no idea what members of the Gardai think. I am not even going to debate a word of what you said because as far as im concerned your opinion and what you think of the organisation is so far off the mark as to be very frustrating.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.