View Full Version : Hillsborough
why do they tell people to boycott the sun over something that happened 20 years ago? i mean i bet most of them just buy another tabloid anyway so its not like they become more educated and if we were to use history than should liverpool be a hated club for what their fans did to 39 innocent people in brussels?
'The Sun' is boycotted because of an article which was written in the aftermath of Hillsborough claiming that Liverpool fans robbed those lying dead amongst various other scandalous remarks. Typical shoddy red top journalism. You are correct in saying that people just bought another red top though.
This thread is about Hillsborough, im not commenting on Heysel.
irishultra
20/04/2009, 9:55 AM
On a side note, mass at St. 7.30pm in Matthews Church, Ballyfermot is for the 96. The final hymn will be "You’ll Never Walk Alone".
Wonder did they to the same for the Ivorians that died at the World Cup Qualifier?
I never actually knew why they boycotted the sun, thanks for that. I presume there is a whole new set of writers there(might be wrong) and anyway also tabloids are the same but I guess its a good reason.
reder
20/04/2009, 10:42 AM
Wonder did they to the same for the Ivorians that died at the World Cup Qualifier?
I dont know. To tell you the truth, I was completely taken back by the mass myself. It was a lovely thought all the same.
I would have been far less surprised if there was a service here given that Liverpool is the protestant club on Merseyside.
I presume there is a whole new set of writers there(might be wrong) and anyway also tabloids are the same but I guess its a good reason.
The staff is probably completely different from those days but the ill-feeling still remains.
stamullendrog
20/04/2009, 1:08 PM
What about the Munich song, often heard loud and clear at Pool/United games? That stinks of double standards to me.
its a minority like the minority of united fans that sing murderers and you killed your own as do a minority among chelsea and everton fans.im sure if you look at other clubs minorities sing vile things about rivals(sol campbell when spurs went to fratton park springs to mind)
papa-j
21/04/2009, 11:44 PM
what happened in Istanbul
nothing happened thats my point. The behaviour was first class, its fair to say that after 20 years since the last CL / European cup that most of those attending Istanbul were genuine fans.Athens was 2 years after and involved the same generation of fans who went along with same attitude - but it also attracted a load of scum bag hanger ons with no connection to the club who caused trouble. My point is that you cant put forward Athens as an example of "Liverpool supporters" causing trouble without considering Istanbul -balanced view!
mypost
22/04/2009, 1:24 AM
Personally, I don't compare Athens at all to Hillsborough and Heysel. I regard it as a minor incident.
On Heysel, I don't accept the allegations of "murder". Riots happened and still happen at football grounds, (most of them not involving Liverpool fans) but most stadiums don't have walls that "collapse" due to inadequate safety procedures, and the Juventus fans died due to the wall collapsing where they were. A tragedy yes, murder no.
Structurally at the time, the stadium was completely unfit to host that final, (a crumbling dangerous dump, with chicken wire as "segregation") and when you compare it to the stadiums that hold it today, it's unbelievable that it was given the honour at all.
On Heysel, I don't accept the allegations of "murder".
Of course you don't. Nothing is ever the responsibility of Liverpool fans, lest we forget.
but it also attracted a load of scum bag hanger ons with no connection to the club who caused trouble.
I disagree with that. For my experience of going to Liverpool away games and I have been to many, I regularly came accross people trying to bunk into away grounds just before kick off.
Personally, I don't compare Athens at all to Hillsborough and Heysel. I regard it as a minor incident.
On Heysel, I don't accept the allegations of "murder". Riots happened and still happen at football grounds, (most of them not involving Liverpool fans) but most stadiums don't have walls that "collapse" due to inadequate safety procedures, and the Juventus fans died due to the wall collapsing where they were. A tragedy yes, murder no.
Structurally at the time, the stadium was completely unfit to host that final, (a crumbling dangerous dump, with chicken wire as "segregation") and when you compare it to the stadiums that hold it today, it's unbelievable that it was given the honour at all.
you must be a Liverpool fan, always trying to lay the blame elsewhere (http://www.sportinglife.com/football/cups/championsleague/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/07/06/04/SOCCER_Liverpool_UEFA.html).
Liverpool and Rovers. Does it get any worse? ;)
you must be a Liverpool fan, always trying to lay the blame elsewhere (http://www.sportinglife.com/football/cups/championsleague/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/07/06/04/SOCCER_Liverpool_UEFA.html).
Liverpool and Rovers. Does it get any worse? ;)
TODAY, the Liverpool ECHO can exclusively expose how police statements were crucially altered after the Hillsborough tragedy.
For the first time ever, we can reveal how reams of officers’ accounts were deleted in the weeks following the disaster and how huge swathes of first-hand police statements were removed by South Yorkshire Police.
Today, families of the 96 Liverpool supporters who were killed said the dossier showed South Yorkshire Police trying to divert blame on to others.
Initial statements, before being erased, consistently detail:
A chronic lack of communication between officers.
Nobody tending to the injured.
Useless radios and incoherent transmissions.
Non-existent stewarding.
Lack of use of the public address system.
The lack of police officers on duty, 10%fewer than the previous semi-final involving Liverpool at Hillsborough.
Senior officers concerned about a growing “complacent” attitude towards policing at Hillsborough in years leading up to 1989.
Officers stationed in the wrong sections of the ground and its surrounding area.
The lack of faith officers had in the recently-installed Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield compared with his predecessor Chief Superintendent Brian Mole.
The ECHO has obtained a dossier of officers’ statements that were deleted after the tragedy, that included:
WIPED . . . . . . A statement made by PS Kennedy, who had stated: “Several senior officers were, I’m afraid, lacking in directing the officers there, towards useful purposes.
“My thought on the incident, professionally, are that many officers and above, had no idea of what to do.
“Many were unable to work without being told exactly where to go and what to do, without personal radios, directions were limited.
“Many constables were too concerned about finding their serials {squads}, than trying to help the situation.
“...I had no fears other than the officers feeling let down by higher ranking officers.”
WIPED . . . PC Bennett, who had said: “Although it was basically poorly organised, I felt that officers should have been at the turnstile entrance ways in more strength and caused the crowd to form queues prior to getting near the turnstiles.
“No senior officers at this stage appeared to be in command of the situation and what was happening was several officers of Inspector level pushed amongst the crowd shouting at officers to move the supporters first this way then that way.
“I feel that no one knew what was actually taking place.”
WIPED . . . PC Cammock, who had said: “For a start, the microphone system was next to useless and I and others around me could hear very little of what was actually said.
“We kept asking senior officers to speak up, but still only heard two words in four.”
WIPED . . . PC Ramsden, who had said: “..only one thing has concerned me, was that the pure location of the control box at Hillsborough overlooks the area where the tragedy took place.
“Were not officers appreciative of the developing situation? What was the feedback from the officers working the perimeter of the pitch.
“Couldn’t they see the developing crush on the terraces?”
WIPED . . . PC Green, who had said: “I felt useless and guilty and in anger asked, ‘where the hell were our senior officers?’
“Many officers sat there in bewilderment and still no senior officer was present. It was uplifting to see Chief Supt Mole walk across the field of play.”
WIPED . . . PC Kent, who had said: “...I was surprised that the Liverpool supporters coming to the ground along Halifax Road were allowed to go where they wanted and did not have a police escort from the coaches parked on Halifax Road.”
WIPED . . . PC Winter, who had said: “My feelings at this point were of total confusion, there were no persons to give any guidance at the initial attendance at the scene, everything was done as a gut reaction. “My only observations of the policing of the event were, if we had so many police officers on duty, spread out all over the place, why couldn’t more police have been deviated to the Leppings Lane area, to approach from behind and break up the large crowd?”
WIPED . . . PC Hooson, who had said: “I made a request to one Inspector who was standing on the grass to get a serial {squad} through the back to pull the people out.
“Whether he did or not I don’t know, he seemed a little nonplussed and walked away.”
WIPED . . . PC Twigg, who had said: “I have worked many matches in Hillsborough including last year’s semi final {in 1988} which I feel was policed a lot better because there were more officers on duty.”
WIPED . . . PC Linday, who had said: “Having surveyed the situation, I couldn’t understand why there were only two horses near to the turnstiles when normally there would be four to six on any other fixture.
“The situation appeared to be lost before I got there.”
WIPED . . . PC Groome, who had said: “Too many non-operational supervisory officers were in charge of important and critical parts of the football ground.
“The deployment of officers around the crucial time needs to come under scrutiny, too many were sat in the gymnasium, while others were rushed off their feet.”
Chief Inspector Purdy had some telling criticisms, which were all deleted from his original statement.
He had said: “Why, during the period 2-2.45pm, when the Leppings Lane end and the West Stand were not very full, except for the centre pen, was the kick off not put back and the delay broadcast to the supporters outside?
“You cannot pass 30-40,000 through the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end in one hour. At 2pm, I would estimate that only 12,000 were in the ground.
“The policing at Hillsborough has become complacent over the last 2-3 years, because there hadn’t been any significant or major outbreaks of trouble, supervisory officers assumed that it wouldn’t happen.
“Various officers working the track and in the ground, had warned that things were starting to go wrong over this period, yet no notice was taken.
“Manpower levels had been steadily cut over this season to the detriment of policing the ground efficiently.
“The decision to replace Chief Superintendent Mole before the semi-final needs to come under some scrutiny.
“The man had many years experience of policing big matches at Hillsborough.”
The account given by PC Lang, appeared crucial, but that too was deleted by his South Yorkshire Police superiors.
The constable had spoken at length of his experience when he was on duty at Hillsborough in 1988, for Liverpool’s semi-final against Nottingham Forest a year earlier.
The officer described how he had personally received the order to close the gates at the top of the tunnel leading to the central pens and that he remained at those gates to prevent entry into the pens and directed fans to the wing pens.
But a large section of that account, which would have demonstrated how the 1989 operation should have worked, but failed to do so, was removed.
Other statements were subtly altered in the dossier, including a declaration from PC Rich that was changed from “we had lost control of the ticket situation”, to “the ticket control had got out of hand”.
PC Brookes, who had noted the central pens were “too” full at 2.50pm, saw the word “too” removed.
And a statement from Inspector Humphries, who had initially reported having 22 constables in his squad, was changed to record he had “thirty”.
Last week, the current Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police Meredydd Hughes admitted that “words” were changed in officers’ statements.
But our evidence demonstrates that words, and in indeed whole paragraphs, were completely slashed.
Today, Margaret Aspinall, from the Hillsborough Family Support Group, who lost her 18-year-old son James in the tragedy, told the ECHO: “It is despicable, there is so much that the public weren’t allowed to know.
“The issue around police statements being edited and deleted is the whole reason why we have never got accountability.
“We always knew they changed a lot of police officers’ accounts which is why we’re desperate to see all the documents relating to Hillsborough.
“It’s not just changing the odd word here and there, it’s major changes in those police statements.”
Lim till i die
28/04/2009, 4:29 PM
On Heysel, I don't accept the allegations of "murder".
Of course you don't
Riots happened and still happen at football grounds, (most of them not involving Liverpool fans) but most stadiums don't have walls that "collapse" due to inadequate safety procedures, and the Juventus fans died due to the wall collapsing where they were. A tragedy yes, murder no.
Structurally at the time, the stadium was completely unfit to host that final, (a crumbling dangerous dump, with chicken wire as "segregation") and when you compare it to the stadiums that hold it today, it's unbelievable that it was given the honour at all.
Pathetic excuse. Have often been in packed GAA grounds which were falling down around my ears.
Number of murders?? Zero.
"It was the Stadium."
"It was Chelsea/West Ham/NF"
"It was MI5"
"Wah"
"Wah"
Justice for the 39. ;)
NeilMcD
28/04/2009, 4:45 PM
nothing happened thats my point. The behaviour was first class, its fair to say that after 20 years since the last CL / European cup that most of those attending Istanbul were genuine fans.Athens was 2 years after and involved the same generation of fans who went along with same attitude - but it also attracted a load of scum bag hanger ons with no connection to the club who caused trouble. My point is that you cant put forward Athens as an example of "Liverpool supporters" causing trouble without considering Istanbul -balanced view!
Sorry but Istanbul should be the norm, and the fact it is not mentioned should not be held up as some sort of credit against the debit of Athens. It is the norm for people to behave. Its like that old joke that Chris Rock does about people claiming credit for looking after their kids.
So let me get this right, when things go right, its genuine fans and when things go wrong, you want to wipe your hands of it and say it was hangers on and not genuine fans. What about Heysel, was that hangers on or genuine fans
Schumi
28/04/2009, 5:31 PM
On Heysel, I don't accept the allegations of "murder". Riots happened and still happen at football grounds, (most of them not involving Liverpool fans) but most stadiums don't have walls that "collapse" due to inadequate safety procedures, and the Juventus fans died due to the wall collapsing where they were. A tragedy yes, murder no.This is incorrect. The Juventus fans died from being crushed into the wall (with a force sufficient to cause it to collapse). Its collapse actually saved more deaths.
Heysel was a complete dump but that didn't cause people to charge opposition fans and crush them.
DeLorean
26/04/2016, 10:52 AM
Inquest jury concludes 96 deaths at Hillsborough 'unlawful' (http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0426/784321-hillsborough-unlawful-deaths/)
The jury concluded it was unlawful killing by a 7-2 majority.
The conclusion was greeted with sobbing and cheers at the hearing in Warrington.
The jury also ruled that fan behaviour did not cause or contribute to the tragedy.
NeverFeltBetter
26/04/2016, 10:55 AM
What does this mean for potential future prosecutions/litigation though?
DeLorean
26/04/2016, 10:59 AM
What does this mean for potential future prosecutions/litigation though?
Hillsborough verdicts: Police chief David Duckenfield among key figures facing criminal charges (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/hillsborough-verdicts-police-chief-david-duckenfield-among-key-f/)
Great news. Been way too long coming. These families have had to go through agony just to get justice and to clear the names of their deceased loved ones.
OwlsFan
27/04/2016, 9:51 AM
This was a disaster waiting to happen and it just happened to be Hillsboro where the circumstances conspired to make it happen. There were fatal errors of judgement made but the police never set out to kill anyone. They opened the gate to allow the crush outside to abate but as a result caused the fatal crush inside. Should they have foreseen that? Yes. Incompetence? Yes. Badly policed, yes. Unlawful killing i.e. in breach of criminal law - I am not so sure. Definitely negligence. The club doesn't come out of it too well either and the stadium was shown to be antiquated and unsafe.
Presumably to cause a crush people must be pushing ? I assume it was an all ticket game so why was the Leppings Lane End overcrowded? Were there fans there without tickets? I haven't read the report so I don't know the whole circumstances. Clearly though the people who were crushed were the ones who came in early so there should have been no blame attached to them or why their names had to be cleared?
However, the attempt at the cover up by the police of their errors which was exposed by the Liverpool bereaved is a great credit to them and shows that sometimes the people do have power and if pursued with passion and belief can have results. How it took 27 years to beat the system, just shows the strength of the system and how slow the system is to own up to its grievous errors. We in Ireland know that so well about English justice.
How people weren't crushed to death in Dalymount for some of the big games I don't know. I remember being lifted off my feet in some of the crushes going in to the games which I am not sure were even all ticket.
DeLorean
27/04/2016, 2:30 PM
There were fatal errors of judgement made but the police never set out to kill anyone. They opened the gate to allow the crush outside to abate but as a result caused the fatal crush inside. Should they have foreseen that? Yes. Incompetence? Yes. Badly policed, yes. Unlawful killing i.e. in breach of criminal law - I am not so sure. Definitely negligence.
Yes, there's a lot to be said for working jobs where the decisions you make (or don't make) don't have the potential to turn people's lives upside down. Even with the best will in the world mistakes happen. Obviously the cover up is another matter again but I can see how panic would set in. That doesn't excuse it of course, but there are no winners in all of this, just various degrees of losers.
Stuttgart88
27/04/2016, 3:10 PM
Ireland vs Italy in Dalymount (1983?) was our Hillsborough that very nearly happened.
I usually have sympathy for people who simply by messing up in their job cause real damage, but the institutional cover-up quickly erodes any of that sympathy.
DeLorean
27/04/2016, 3:32 PM
I actually read all of this thread yesterday when I found it and ye're just repeating yourselves lads. :) That Italy game sounds manic!
I remember going to Munster Hurling & Football finals from the early to mid-90's and although I never really felt threatened, they used have to open the gates almost routinely to leave people onto the pitch behind the goals or down the sidelines because of overcrowding in the terraces. You'd think Hillsborough would have opened people's eye even earlier than it did.
OwlsFan
27/04/2016, 5:37 PM
I actually read all of this thread yesterday when I found it and ye're just repeating yourselves lads. :) That Italy game sounds manic!
.
When you get to my age, that happens a lot. When you get to my age......
TheBoss
27/04/2016, 6:44 PM
I have a little gripe with the way the some media outlets in England and perhaps here in Ireland too as well as some "Liverpool fans" handle this awful tragedy. They seem always refer to it as "96 Liverpool Fans". Yes, it is true that 96 football fans that died were Liverpool fans but to me that degrades them as ordinary people that were killed in a tragedy. To me, 96 people innocently died from a tragedy. I don't see it as a 'football tragedy' but rather a tragedy. Just because it happened at a football stadium does not make it any different to any other tragedy that has occurred in all of life. Yet when this is remembered every year, we see memorials held at Anfield, it is like the club want to take ownership of the tragedy rather than letting whole country remember these innocent people.
Also I'm not sure why "Liverpool fans" in Ireland even held their own gathering a few years ago in Dublin. They are remembering them as Liverpool fans and not people which just irritates me.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/irish-liverpool-fans-remember-hillsborough-tragedy-30180852.html
Will these same people remember the Glen Cinema disaster when that anniversary comes around, I believe not. Speaking of the Glen Cinema disaster, should that disaster only be remembered by those in the movie industry because it happened at a cinema? Or perhaps that these people that unfortunately died will be remembered as "71 Movie Fans", with movie been replaced by the film they watching. Just an annoying issue I have on this.
SkStu
28/04/2016, 12:38 AM
Interesting perspective Bruce. Not a way I've ever looked at it but you make a good point. A lot of quarters refer to Liverpool fans as grief junkies and so there's obviously an element of that to it but this is something very personal to Liverpool fans and I don't begrudge them taking ownership of it. What gets lost in all this is the impact it had on families of all persuasions on Mersyside. Lots of Everton fans impacted by this too - I have no idea what the city does to remember the dead so can't say for sure if Liverpool fans have completely "hijacked" it. And probably not too concerned if they have - as supporters of our local teams we know the sense of family that there is amongst our fan bases. The good, the bad and the ugly so to speak. And families remember loss far more personally than the neighbourhood does...if you stick with that analogy. Good post though!
DeLorean
28/04/2016, 8:36 AM
Yeah an interesting take but I suppose football and Liverpool F.C. is a way of life over there also, and the people that matter most, the victim's families were presumably only too happy for those associated with the football club to take ownership a such. I suspect in their pursuit of truth and justice the involvement/support of the football club gave them a much stronger platform to carry on fighting the fight, given the national and international status of Liverpool F.C. I think there's a bit of a difference between being defined by a random movie you've gone to see and that of your local sports team, like Stu says, there's a sense of community there.
The annual memorials at Anfield are very appropriate as well I believe, in fact I think it was important that they continued to recognise the lives that were lost while supporting their football team, especially with all the efforts that were going on behind the scenes to keep the topic/legal proceedings active and relevant. As for the Dublin memorials and that sort of thing, to each their own but I think it's just another symptom of the massive cringe element that comes with supporting English football in this country.
DeLorean
28/04/2016, 8:40 AM
When you get to my age, that happens a lot. When you get to my age......
Ha... it was me that was dithering there really though, kind of forgetting that the posts I'd just read were from seven years ago. I think it's fair game to repeat yourself after that length of time.
OwlsFan
28/04/2016, 1:13 PM
As for the Dublin memorials and that sort of thing, to each their own but I think it's just another symptom of the massive cringe element that comes with supporting English football in this country.
The stupid booing of Sterling in the recent English game at Lansdowne brought home to me the size of the Liverpool support in Ireland but a memorial in Dublin to something that happened in Sheffield in which no Irish people died....surely not.
Without wishing to go OT, is there a cringe element in supporting an English team in Ireland? I can understand why some people regard it as abhorrent, but I don't believe that the general public thinks that way as evidenced by EPL results appearing as the first item on Irish sports results programmes and on the TV with dedicated programmes showing highlights. I just don't know what life would be like on a Saturday afternoon without waiting for the usual bad news from Sheffield, and also the LoI results for the Hoops (better success there) and the IL and Scottish results. I love them all. I even supported Real Betis for a while in Spain when I was given their jersey when Ireland played in Spain and Sociedad when Aldridge played there but now it's anyone but the Big Two (I don't like Big Twos except in Rovers, the only team I have followed with any success).
DeLorean
28/04/2016, 2:10 PM
Sorry, that's not what I meant by the 'cringe element'. I've a big interest in British football myself so that would have been very hypocritical! I was even a big Man Utd fan growing up and beyond and would still wish them well, without being anywhere near as fanatical. By 'cringe element' I meant things like Irish people referring to each other as Mancs and Scousers and that kind of thing, a sort of delusion that they are something more than fans from afar. The booing of Raheem Sterling was a new low in terms of cringe actually, seeing as you mention it. Even the Saipan thing, for the most part it was a Liverpool-Man Utd divide, the majority people* who supported one or the other were so blinded by their club loyalties that they couldn't even view that completely independent situation objectively.
*possibly too much of a generalisation but that's the way it seemed.
geysir
28/04/2016, 2:32 PM
I have a little gripe with the way the some media outlets in England and perhaps here in Ireland too as well as some "Liverpool fans" handle this awful tragedy. They seem always refer to it as "96 Liverpool Fans". Yes, it is true that 96 football fans that died were Liverpool fans but to me that degrades them as ordinary people that were killed in a tragedy. To me, 96 people innocently died from a tragedy. I don't see it as a 'football tragedy' but rather a tragedy. Just because it happened at a football stadium does not make it any different to any other tragedy that has occurred in all of life. Yet when this is remembered every year, we see memorials held at Anfield, it is like the club want to take ownership of the tragedy rather than letting whole country remember these innocent people.
Also I'm not sure why "Liverpool fans" in Ireland even held their own gathering a few years ago in Dublin. They are remembering them as Liverpool fans and not people which just irritates me.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/irish-liverpool-fans-remember-hillsborough-tragedy-30180852.html
Will these same people remember the Glen Cinema disaster when that anniversary comes around, I believe not. Speaking of the Glen Cinema disaster, should that disaster only be remembered by those in the movie industry because it happened at a cinema? Or perhaps that these people that unfortunately died will be remembered as "71 Movie Fans", with movie been replaced by the film they watching. Just an annoying issue I have on this.
I think your opinion is way off the mark. That linked article is not a good reference point for your opinion, the Liverpool fans' slogan was "Ireland Walks With The 96" not 96 Liverpool fans. At a rough guess I'd say the most common reference is the "Hillsborough 96" or the "Hillsborough Disaster". The campaign for justice is called "justice for the 96" or the Hillsborough justice campaign . And it in no way demeans the memory of the 96 to be referred as Liverpool fans or football fans in an article.
Hillsborough 96 is word or phrase which easily evokes the memory of all that happened inside that stadium. Liverpool fans probably have a more personal memory.
Another tragedy was the "Stardust" nightclub fire, do you think that demeans the memory of the young people to be remembered in that way as nightclubbers, or is it a phrase which evokes the memory of that particular tragedy affecting the lives of so many? There was a service last year for the Cambrian mining disaster, that's how we in society connect with that particular tragedy.
Disasters or tragedies are generally referred to by location and sometimes occupation.
TheBoss
29/04/2016, 2:53 AM
I think your opinion is way off the mark. That linked article is not a good reference point for your opinion, the Liverpool fans' slogan was "Ireland Walks With The 96" not 96 Liverpool fans. At a rough guess I'd say the most common reference is the "Hillsborough 96" or the "Hillsborough Disaster". The campaign for justice is called "justice for the 96" or the Hillsborough justice campaign . And it in no way demeans the memory of the 96 to be referred as Liverpool fans or football fans in an article.
Hillsborough 96 is word or phrase which easily evokes the memory of all that happened inside that stadium. Liverpool fans probably have a more personal memory.
Another tragedy was the "Stardust" nightclub fire, do you think that demeans the memory of the young people to be remembered in that way as nightclubbers, or is it a phrase which evokes the memory of that particular tragedy affecting the lives of so many? There was a service last year for the Cambrian mining disaster, that's how we in society connect with that particular tragedy.
Disasters or tragedies are generally referred to by location and sometimes occupation.
I did refer to 'some' and not 'all'. ;) I have no problem with the terms you have mentioned, its just that particular term that I find annoying.
In that article I linked to, what were some of the people wearing/waving at that event, Liverpool jerseys, scarfs, flags etc. If they were there for those people they would have been dressed more appropriately considering the tragic way they died. If you asked those 'Irish Liverpool fans' what the 96 means would they say 96 people or 96 Liverpool fans, I'll just leave that thought out there.
In relation to Stardust, I would say that 'nightclubbers' would be a demeaning way to describe them, I would say young people would be more respectful cause in general life they are people, so we should label 'nightclubbers' because on that night they were nightclubbing? Its not as if a 'nightclubber' is a title that one gives themselves is it now.
I think using the term 'person' or 'people' is more emotionally responsive by the public when the hear of a death, to call them other than that sort makes them not as important cause it sounds like their something else other than what they are which is you and me. I can't quite find the vocabulary to explain it clearer.
geysir
30/04/2016, 8:04 PM
I did refer to 'some' and not 'all'. ;) I have no problem with the terms you have mentioned, its just that particular term that I find annoying.
In that article I linked to, what were some of the people wearing/waving at that event, Liverpool jerseys, scarfs, flags etc. If they were there for those people they would have been dressed more appropriately considering the tragic way they died. If you asked those 'Irish Liverpool fans' what the 96 means would they say 96 people or 96 Liverpool fans, I'll just leave that thought out there.
In relation to Stardust, I would say that 'nightclubbers' would be a demeaning way to describe them, I would say young people would be more respectful cause in general life they are people, so we should label 'nightclubbers' because on that night they were nightclubbing? Its not as if a 'nightclubber' is a title that one gives themselves is it now.
I think using the term 'person' or 'people' is more emotionally responsive by the public when the hear of a death, to call them other than that sort makes them not as important cause it sounds like their something else other than what they are which is you and me. I can't quite find the vocabulary to explain it clearer.
You don't add any clarification at all. In context. what you are annoyed about is petty and really not worth a mention on a day, when after years of being accused of prolonging victimhood etc, Liverpool families, friend and fans were totally vindicated in the courts.
Football fans traditionally remember their own tragedies (recent and anniversaries) with club related paraphernalia.
Your emphasis on 'Irish Liverpool fans' does betray a prejudice of sorts.
osarusan
01/05/2016, 8:01 AM
Without wishing to go OT, is there a cringe element in supporting an English team in Ireland?
When Irish lads are talking about 'Manc scum' and 'Scouse scum' and the likes, it gets a bit cringy.
Stuttgart88
03/05/2016, 10:07 AM
I read an interview with Ray Parlour in the Sunday Times and he was saying how huge Arsenal are in Ethiopia. Although I fully agree with osarasan's comment, I think we should get over ourselves a bit and just accept that the EPL is simply huge around the world, as are all the clubs at the top-end of European football. Half the world is talking about Leicester City today.
Of course it's frustrating that many Irish follow English football without showing any interest in domestic football but I think it's quite chippy to think being Irish and following an English team is cringeworthy.
DeLorean
03/05/2016, 12:41 PM
Of course it's frustrating that many Irish follow English football without showing any interest in domestic football but I think it's quite chippy to think being Irish and following an English team is cringeworthy.
You would say that ya cockney goon :p
osarusan
03/05/2016, 12:46 PM
Of course it's frustrating that many Irish follow English football without showing any interest in domestic football but I think it's quite chippy to think being Irish and following an English team is cringeworthy.
Don't know if that was directed at me but that's not what I think.
Supporting English teams (or Scottish, or anywhere) isn't cringeworthy. Good luck with it if it's what you feel.
But trying to ape their behaviour to the extent that (for example) Irish Liverpool and Everton fans are replicating the cross-city rivalry that exists in Liverpool is fairly cringeworthy.
DeLorean
03/05/2016, 6:23 PM
Don't know if that was directed at me but that's not what I think.
Not sure either, it was me that brought the 'cringe element' into the discussion in post #75, but I thought I cleared it up in post #78. Maybe it's not all about me though. :)
Stuttgart88
04/05/2016, 8:36 AM
Don't know if that was directed at me but that's not what I think.
Supporting English teams (or Scottish, or anywhere) isn't cringeworthy. Good luck with it if it's what you feel.
But trying to ape their behaviour to the extent that (for example) Irish Liverpool and Everton fans are replicating the cross-city rivalry that exists in Liverpool is fairly cringeworthy.
How can it be directed at you when I said I fully agree with your comment? :) I totally agree with the extreme self-identification thing, but let's face it the world is obsessed with English football and the other big European clubs. It's the way it is and so be it.
OwlsFan
10/05/2016, 4:43 PM
Looking at the documentary the other night, the main fault seems to have been that when they opened the gates due to the crushing outside, they did not block off the centre tunnel which lead to the section which was already full and the later arrivals should have been directed to the other two pens on either side where there was still space. When they came through the gates the obvious way was to go through the central tunnel which was unguarded. This was also apparently Duckenfield's either first or one of his first games in charge. A far more experienced commander had been moved sideways and out of South Yorkshire Police due to an incident between some of his officers. As ever in disasters, it's the domino effect. Apparently in an earlier semi-final between Spurs and Wolves(?), there had been over crowding at that end which was relieved by allowing fans sit on the edge of the pitch. A warning which had gone unheeded.
DeLorean
02/06/2016, 2:06 PM
Horrors of Hillsborough tragedy left indelible mark on George Hamilton (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/horrors-of-hillsborough-tragedy-left-indelible-mark-on-george-hamilton-402803.html)
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