The League

[don ramo]

Don't you think every team outside the top five having a meaningless fixture every week for two thirds of the season would be repetitive enough?

well a said look at all european league, how many of thise leagues have had more than 4 different league winners in the last 10 years, or 20 in some cases, you will have teams diminateing thats just the way it is,

your not gonna have 16 teams pushing for the title, you will have teams that will be happy just to aviod relegation,
look at england for the best example, some teams are happy to be mid table other just to avoid the drop, some are happy just to get into europe, and outside the top 4 clubs the greatest achievement the other 16 can do is break into the top 4,

i find playing say cork city at home at the start of april and more than likely play them again by the end of may, and again at the start of september, it kills the rivialry, and the game come to be more of a social gathering of catching up with some fella i met at the last game, and see how hes getting on, there no rivilary

[LeixlipRed]

there no rivilary

There's no rivalry because Cobh never had a chance of winning.

[Dodge]

well a said look at all european league, how many of thise leagues have had more than 4 different league winners in the last 10 years, or 20 in some cases, you will have teams diminateing thats just the way it is,


So you're arguing for a 16 team league because a 10 team league is repetitive, and you're arguing against a league that has different winners? That makes no sense

[don ramo]

So you're arguing for a 16 team league because a 10 team league is repetitive, and you're arguing against a league that has different winners? That makes no sense

im not argueing against a league that has multiple winners at all,

im saying that no matter how many clubs in a league there will be 2-3 clubs that will dominate the league for a decade or so, regardless if its 10, 12 or 16, there is always a team that dominates,

people here are saying 16 teams will compromise the quailty of the league, how so, you have 4 extra teams playing 4 differnt styles of football, extra competition, and i think there a strong arguement that it would generate better rivilary if you didnt meet the same team so consistently


at this moment in time there are 28 LOI clubs, surely something that be done to make it more interesting, and it has to be interesting otherwise it will just die off slowly, playing each other maybe 6 or 7 times a year isnt intersting, but thats just me


so what would you prefer dodge keep the current set-up 10/12/3-3

[Dodge]

so what would you prefer dodge keep the current set-up 10/12/3-3

Don't really care. 10 is too few, 16 is too many, 12 gives an uneven amount of home and away games.

If some decent research is put into it and its decided to go with 10,12, 14, 16 it wouldn't bother me either way

What I have a problem with is people saying "16 teams is the ONLY way to go" and then giving absolutely no back up to that claim. The league has tons of problems, none of them caused by the amount of teams in each division

[RoversHead]

I'll ask again, what is a 16 team league a solution to?

I'd love to see harps in the premier but what do the proponents of a 16 team league think that this will achieve?I watched RoversvKildare last night and Kildare had two players thats it 6 and 10 .Now if that club was not cut adrift in the graveyard they would attract one or two other good players and in turn get a bigger gate as they would be worth watching .The added attraction of them playing against the so called big clubs would also bring more to their home games and they might stand a chance of keeping the 6 and 10 during the window and actually move on as a club.The two lads are good prospects and the number 6 was man of the match by a mile,I think he`s from Ghana .

[Dodge]

I watched RoversvKildare last night and Kildare had two players thats it 6 and 10 .Now if that club was not cut adrift in the graveyard they would attract one or two other good players and in turn get a bigger gate as they would be worth watching .The added attraction of them playing against the so called big clubs would also bring more to their home games and they might stand a chance of keeping the 6 and 10 during the window and actually move on as a club.

The counter to that is that clubs like Cork, Rovers, Dundalk etc would get less crowds for their games.

Should the league be run on the basis that Kildare might geta few people through the turnstiles 4/5 times a season?

Like I said its all speculation on our behalf, and until research is done on that matter, I'll remain sceptical

[Gareth]

Don't really care. 10 is too few, 16 is too many, 12 gives an uneven amount of home and away games.

If some decent research is put into it and its decided to go with 10,12, 14, 16 it wouldn't bother me either way

What I have a problem with is people saying "16 teams is the ONLY way to go" and then giving absolutely no back up to that claim. The league has tons of problems, none of them caused by the amount of teams in each division

Dodge, I believe I raised the 16 team point, and at no point did I say it was the only way to go. I have mentioned why I gave the number, and it was based on having a league that sees teams compete twice against each other, which seems to be the model for the more successful league in this world, by accident or design. It was just a point in a post I made on how the league might work better.

To expand on the point, 5 regional feeder/excellence (whatever word you choose to use) centers, Dublin, South-East, South-West, West/North-West and Midlands could be set up (Wexford Youths, UCD, and other new clubs (Salthill-Devon? for the West)). I mention UCD and Wexford Youths as I think they are the best suited of the current teams to fill these roles. It's by no means an insult to their fans, I think the clubs operate excellently. They would play in the second tier league in conjunction with a selection of reserve teams from the Prem and potential other clubs who would aim for promotion. The aim of these centers would be to develop young talent which will graduate to the Premier division.

In the Premier, It would make sense for certain teams to merge but you battle against history, the loss of tradition etc etc which are hard things to let go of, and equally hard to potentially merge with bitter rivals. However I do think it seems like business sense on paper. Less competition for the same market space.

Anyways...

[LeixlipRed]

In the Premier, It would make sense for certain teams to merge but you battle against history, the loss of tradition etc etc which are hard things to let go of, and equally hard to potential merge with bitter rivals. However I do think it seems like business sense on paper.



I really just can't so how anyone could propose mergers. Many of the hardcore (and that's all we have really) would walk away from the league if this ever happened. I would never follow another team.

[RoversHead]

The elite loads of money derby between Bohs and Pats attracted 200 Pats fans and a half full Jodi .Rovers v Kildare attracted 1500+ on a dreary monday night,six of one half a dozen of the other really.The point is we can only build a sustainable league if we build sustainable clubs.I dont see this happening over night but the journey has been started and I would rather clubs like Kildare came along instead of being left to rot.

[Dodge]

For the record there's no way in hell Kildare would be part of any top 16...

[RoversHead]

Don't you think every team outside the top five having a meaningless fixture every week for two thirds of the season would be repetitive enough?I dont think there is such a thing as a meaningless fixture when your building a club or a team but two clubs cut adrift playing in front of one man and his dog could certainly give that impression.

[Dodge]

I dont think there is such a thing as a meaningless fixture when your building a club or a team but two clubs cut adrift playing in front of one man and his dog could certainly give that impression.

So why only 16 of the league's teams then?

[osarusan]

The point is we can only build a sustainable league if we build sustainable clubs.

We have a sustainable league. The LOI has been around since 1921.

What you want it a sustainable league which is at a higher level than it is now. But the fact that we don't get 5000 for every game and d very well in Europe means that we can't get 5000 for every game and do very well in Europe.

Sadly, there are not thousands of fans out there just waiting to go to shiny new stadiums to watch top quality players. If that group of fans existed, we'd have tapped into them by now. Clubs who have overspent trying to offer this to potential fans have suffered for doing so. It is not a case of "If we build it, they will come."

No matter how many teams in how many divisions playing each other however many times, the standard of the league is not going to change dramatically.

[RoversHead]

So why only 16 of the league's teams then?
Im not even sure there are 16 viable candidates Dodge but if a club is being run in the right manner I would have them in.

[Gareth]

We have a sustainable league. The LOI has been around since 1921.

What you want it a sustainable league which is at a higher level than it is now. But the fact that we don't get 5000 for every game and d very well in Europe means that we can't get 5000 for every game and do very well in Europe.

Sadly, there are not thousands of fans out there just waiting to go to shiny new stadiums to watch top quality players. If that group of fans existed, we'd have tapped into them by now. Clubs who have overspent trying to offer this to potential fans have suffered for doing so. It is not a case of "If we build it, they will come."

No matter how many teams in how many divisions playing each other however many times, the standard of the league is not going to change dramatically.

Osarusan, hi. The league has been around since 1921, but that is not an indicator of doing something right now. Times change, and 90 years history doesn't guarantee the future. I don't think we have any shiny new stadia in the League of Ireland. We certainly have a new stand here and there, but I don't think we built it and they didn't come. I think you are overestimating the current level of infrastructure.

Clubs should only pay out what they can afford. Needing 5000 people to come in the gate a week is not a suitable business plan. You create your business around reality and not hopes. Dreams are good to have, but solid goals and realistic targets are what is needed. Clubs pay too much on wages. If not doing that doesn't get the players then that is what will happen, but at least it would give clubs the chance to build correctly rather than racing for glory, exploding due to costs and start again... (or worse go out of business)

[osarusan]

Osarusan, hi. The league has been around since 1921, but that is not an indicator of doing something right now. Times change, and 90 years history doesn't guarantee the future. I don't think we have any shiny new stadia in the League of Ireland. We certainly have a new stand here and there, but I don't think we built it and they didn't come. I think you are overestimating the current level of infrastructure.

Clubs should only pay out what they can afford. Needing 5000 people to come in the gate a week is not a suitable business plan. You create your business around reality and not hopes. Dreams are good to have, but solid goals and realistic targets are what is needed. Clubs pay too much on wages. If not doing that doesn't get the players then that is what will happen, but at least it would give clubs the chance to build correctly rather than racing for glory, exploding due to costs and start again... (or worse go out of business)
I would agree with most of this - the one point being that I think people really overestimate the difference a change in the structure of the league will have on its sustainability.

Everybody wants to see the league be both sustainable and at a higher level than it is now.

But I haven't seen any ideas that I think will bring us closer to that goal.

[Gareth]

I think to get a more sustainable model you need sustainable clubs and not clubs spending way above the odds. It will mean a lower caliber of player in the league perhaps but I would rather that than by numerous clubs battling for survival in the courts etc

Then we look to develop the league into an option for you g talent

[pineapple stu]

How is your model - 16 team Premier and removing the other six to a developmental, regional league, with some top clubs merging by my reading? - going to improve that though?

The problem is that the last few years have given people a much inflated opinion of where the league is. We need to come back down to reality and then try and build slowly from there by doing the basics right. Maybe that mightn't "work", in the sense of European success, 5000 crowds, etc. But that doesn't mean it's the wrong tack.

[osarusan]

I think to get a more sustainable model you need sustainable clubs and not clubs spending way above the odds. It will mean a lower caliber of player in the league perhaps but I would rather that than by numerous clubs battling for survival in the courts etc

I agree completely.

But I just don't see how changing the number of teams or structure of the league will help this, or that they need be connected at all.

[Gareth]

ok the 16 team point was merely because I think league where you only play each other twice seems to be a common thread amongst the most successful leagues. If that can be done with less cool. The point is the reason rather run the specific number

[mr.untitled]

in my opinion there is not enough talent or interest to support a 16 team top flight.
The two tier system (parttime/fulltime) will not work.
Fulltime football is unsustainable in the leagues current form.
The way the league is structured at the moment there is a possibility that, say, Cork fold, Drogheda and Galway get relegated and replaced by Shels. UCD and S. Fingal. The top tier will have 7 dublin area clubs and 3 regional clubs. This is not sustainable.

The solution is difficult. Bitter pills will have to be swallowed but in my opinion,
there should be a 16 team amateur club league which feeds 4 to 6 profesional regional teams (all ireland). These teams play in a pro celtic league with 4 welsh teams. If this were to succeed, Scottish clubs sick of the rangers /celtic domination may consider joining. Yes the league looses its european places to the new celtic league but in its current form, no success will be achieved.

I live in Boston at the moment and regularly attend NE revolution games. I have been to football matches all over the world and I firmly believe that tapping in on the marketing and promotion done bu the IRFU is the way forward.

There is a club rugby match happening soon in dublin that will sell out a 80000 stadium. To ignore the success of pro rugby will be the death of the league.

I realize nobody here would be a fan of this idea but its been on my mind for about 10 years and as the leagues in Ireland, NI and Wales hit problem after problem, I grow more and more frustrated.

Appologies for the rant

Ruairi

[Dodge]

ok the 16 team point was merely because I think league where you only play each other twice seems to be a common thread amongst the most successful leagues. If that can be done with less cool. The point is the reason rather run the specific number

But, again, the number is irrellevant as those leagues are not succesful because the teams only play each other twice.

[Gareth]

Dodge, last time on this, I think playing opposition twice is a better option than three or four times. I cite the fact major leagues only play twice as a reference to it being done. It's a very minor factor but just one I mentioned. I don't think it is anything more than that. 16 was just a number I seen as being able to sustain playing twice. Plus it fit withmy removal of a first division. :)

[pineapple stu]

The point is the reason rather run the specific number


How is your model - 16 team Premier and removing the other six to a developmental, regional league, with some top clubs merging by my reading? - going to improve that though?
.....

[RoversHead]

I just think a league that includes all available financially viable clubs from both divisions is a better platform than what we have in terms of moving forward .Im not too hung up on the number of clubs in that league or the quality they would bring .The league administrators would really need to have a look at themselves in terms of what has been allowed to happen at Cork ,Bohs and Drogs they flagshiped these clubs and fuelled their expectations beyond reality.

[jinxy lilywhite]

i think this is a fascinating debate with some very good arguements. A 16 team league does sound appealing but i think it is flawed in this country for a number of reasons:

1) we only have 22 league clubs. unless clubs are in the shake up for the top or trying to avoid bottom the remaining 10 or 12 teams in the league have nothing really to play for.
2) Countries that generally have 16 to 20 teams in their league have population basis almost 10 times the size of ireland
3) Whilst I agree lower teams need the top clubs going to their place for a bumper gate the standard of the football in the league will diminish.

Overall i believe a 10 team league is the way forward. although 4 series of games may seem frustrating to some, teams have a fighting chance against each other and class differences are not as great.
I think where we have gone wrong, and especially with the A league is that the 1st has never been given much publicity and the A League gets even less. My thoughts on how are league should be run would be a 10 team premier and a 10 team first along with 2 10 team A Championship. (although I still don't understand the relevance of the A Championship. Could this not of incorporated the U21 teams instead of reserves).

My ideas don't go against the grain here but I think while the league is far from perfect, we all get bogged down in what is bad with our league and some clubs allow the knockers more ammo against us, there are good points to be taken from the league and these good points should be only talked about.
It is easy for us to sit on our LOI pedastal and proclaim the we support true football and then constantly knock the league at the perfect opportunity. There is no easy solution to the problems but our problems are representative of all leagues outside the top 5 (England, Italy, Spain, France & Germany). every other league is losing supporters to the television, xbox, ps2, ds lite and wii.

[dcfcsteve]

What the league needs, is to be spelt right in the thread title.

And to have thread titles that actually say what the thread is about in the first place.

Standards have slipped badly on foot.ie..... :)

[RoversHead]

And to have thread titles that actually say what the thread is about in the first place.

Standards have slipped badly on foot.ie..... :) Talk balls

[MMVIII]

And to have thread titles that actually say what the thread is about in the first place.

Standards have slipped badly on foot.ie..... :)

In fairness the original topic on this thread was nothing to do with what is being talked about now.

So try and actually read what was originally asked before you go talking sh1te.

[gufc2000]

There would be uproar if the likes of Bohs and Rovers were to merge, Or Dundalk/ Drogheda. Merging clubs is definitely a non-runner for me

[don ramo]

ok lads, there are 28 LOI clubs, premier, first and A. (yes the A league is considered LOI football)

premier currently has 10 teams, first has 12, and the A is split into 2 groups with 3 non A teams playing there, A league is alSo regionalised to keep costs down,

you can have a 16 team premier division, limit each club to say 5 or 6 professional players, the rest can be part time (lets face it lads no team in the is country can ralistically sustain paying a whole squad of professional players),

there maybe 16 teams in the league, but all 16 wont be competing to win the league, look at scotland, spain, italy, and england, every year there are only 2-4 clubs that can actually win the league, not all 16-20 clubs start the season thinking they can win the league,

then you have the other 12 clubs remaining, so get rid of the first dvision altogether, and you basically extend the A league, instead of 3 non A team have 6, add in the 16 premier A teams, now you can make up the northern and southern leagues with 14 teams in each,

New 16 team premier league

Bohemians
Derry City
Galway Utd
Cork City
Shamrock Rvrs
St. Pats
Sligo Rovers
Dundalk
Bray
Drogheda Utd
UCD
Shelbourne
Sporting Fingal
Waterford
Athlone
Limerick

New northern A divsion

Tullamore
Salthill
Castlebar
Finn Harps
Longford
Monaghan

Drogheda Utd A
Derry City A
Dundalk A
UCD A
Shelbourne A
Galway Utd A
Sligo Rovers A
Athlone A


New southern A division

FC Carlow
Cobh Ramblers
Tralee
Mervue
Wexford Youths
Kildare County

St. Pats A
Bohemians A
Cork City A
Shamrock Rvrs A
Sp. Fingal A
Waterford A
Limerick A
Bray A

*this is based on the league standings as they are today*

if you want you can play each other twice in the A divisions, and then have the top 3 clubs from the north and south breakaway and play in a mini league of 6 to decide who get promted (you can carry over league points if you like), have the overall top team go up and second place could either play-off aginst 3rd top or second bottom,

obvioulsy A teams cant be promted, so out of the 12 non A clubs, 6 could have 26 games in the year, and the other 6 who join the mini league could have 36 (play each other twice in the mini league)

[gufc2000]

Swap Mervue with Longford Town. Mervue have an awful lot of travelling to do

[holidaysong]

I think our country is too small to be having three tiers in the league. Although I don't agree with don ramo on limiting the number of professionals on each team, I do think that we should have just one nationwide division at the top with two regionalised divisions directly below this.

His proposal seems the most sensible one to me. A 16 or 18 team top flight would go some way to actually being a national league rather than the Dublin & District league it currently resembles. Nobody cares about the First Division and it's almost impossible for clubs playing in it to sell their club to potential fans in the local community so I don't really see the point in keeping it as a nationwide division - allow the best clubs in the First Division into the Premier and put the rest into the regionalised A Championship.

[osarusan]

Who wouldn't want to support Shelbohs, St Shamrock's Athletic, or Northern Amalgamation FC?

[don ramo]

I think our country is too small to be having three tiers in the league. Although I don't agree with don ramo on limiting the number of professionals on each team, I do think that we should have just one nationwide division at the top with two regionalised divisions directly below this.

His proposal seems the most sensible one to me. A 16 or 18 team top flight would go some way to actually being a national league rather than the Dublin & District league it currently resembles. Nobody cares about the First Division and it's almost impossible for clubs playing in it to sell their club to potential fans in the local community so I don't really see the point in keeping it as a nationwide division - allow the best clubs in the First Division into the Premier and put the rest into the regionalised A Championship.

well maybe you could do a reward thing to have squad of professionals, maybe the top 5 teams each year, the top 4 teams i suppose would require a squad of full-timers for european reasons, then the team that finnish 5th could also have it, to try and make a push for europe the following year,

that part would be the hardest to do, realsitically theres no way to enforce it, i think the amount of pros you have should be based on success, if this was the way, i would say its more sustainable,

[don ramo]

Swap Mervue with Longford Town. Mervue have an awful lot of travelling to do

well it could be split either way, were in the A south this year and have sporting fingal A, yet there further north than salthill:eek:, it wouldnt be split in a line across the country, you could reshape it according to who get relegated, like if cork city got relegated but no southern team were promoted, you could move mervue of kildare to the northern division, always have 6 non A teams in each league

[passerrby]

lads we will not have 22 clubs in the league at the end of this season between the credit crunch (two words i fcuking hate) and club mismanagement we will lose at best three teams and a maybe more. and if that happens then darwins theory will sort it out.

[gufc2000]

I'd be in favour of a 14 team National League, but it would be too awkward as regards fixtures, as if you play the teams twice its only 26 games and if you play them 3 times its 39 which is too many

[dcfcsteve]

In fairness the original topic on this thread was nothing to do with what is being talked about now.

So try and actually read what was originally asked before you go talking sh1te.

Woo-hoo ! Look at you with the major sense of humour failure...! :o

A thread vaguelt titled "The League" is about as much use as one entitled "Football". It wouldn't hurt for people to allude a bit more to what their thread is actually about in the title.

I could just picture you looking hurt when you stabbed yourself with the wrong end of the stick when reading my note..... :D

[don ramo]

lads we will not have 22 clubs in the league at the end of this season between the credit crunch (two words i fcuking hate) and club mismanagement we will lose at best three teams and a maybe more. and if that happens then darwins theory will sort it out.

use recession, no piont useing 2 words when you can use one, save the cost of ware on the keyboard also:D,

[passerrby]

use recession, no piont useing 2 words when you can use one, save the cost of ware on the keyboard also:D,

.... off



only joking don words are recession proof

[sonofstan]

Who wouldn't want to support Shelbohs,

Sometimes, when I half close my eyes, and look at a Bohs team playing in our yellow and blue away strip, with Nutsy in the dugout and Jayo, Crowe, Heary and Ndo on the pitch......

[hedderman]

Sometimes, when I half close my eyes, and look at a Bohs team playing in our yellow and blue away strip, with Nutsy in the dugout and Jayo, Crowe, Heary and Ndo on the pitch......

....and later on you look at the club's accounts...;)

[sonofstan]

....and later on you look at the club's accounts...;)
:D

Talk about leaving a tap in....

[Hairy Bowsie]

...and then you look at the bare trophy cabinet and realise your most definately a gypo....

[peadar1987]

Swerving wildly off topic but...

How about a compromise of say, a 14 team league, everybody plays each other twice, so 26 games each, then have more cup games to fill the gaps in the calendar, maybe introducing a cross-border cup with an initial group stage.

I don't have any problem with a 10 team league as a general concept, but the smaller the league, the greater proportion of it is filled by Dublin clubs, 7 Dublin teams in a 10 team Premier will strangle football outside Dublin. 7 Dublin teams in a 14 team Premier isn't quite so bad.

I think below this, the leagues can be split into regions, first North and South, then North, South, East and West, building up a proper, integrated league structure, all under the control of the FAI.

If licensing is strictly enforced, the professional thing shouldn't be an issue, clubs will have as many professionals as they can afford under the 65% rule.

So it would look something like this:

Division 1
Division 2 North......Division 2 South
D3 North.....D3 South......D3 North Leinster.......D3 South Leinster......D3 West
D4 North.....D4 South......D4 North Leinster.......D4 South Leinster......D4 West

And so on.

Division 1 with some full-time squads, some part-time, division 2 with part-timers and amateurs, below that, strictly amateurs only. The approximately 40 teams of the top 2 divisions should be picked by the FAI to ensure as much of the country as possible is covered, and after the reorganisation, there should be no relegation to the regional leagues for say 5 years, to allow the new clubs to develop, afterwards it could be decided by a playoff system.

I think a centrally organised league is very important to the long-term development of football in this country.

[dcfcsteve]

What's the obsession that people have on this forum with endless structural change in the league....? :confused:

I don't see people perched on their bar stools in pubs up and down Ireland complaining that Irish football just doesn't do it for them because the league set-up isn't to their liking !

Fecking around with the structure is just a waste of energy and takes everyone's eyes of the real issues that are holding our league back. Lke poor facilities, incompetent club administration, absent marketing etc.

How's about making what we have work a bit better first, before worrying about what colour bow to rap the league up in...

[RoversHead]

lads we will not have 22 clubs in the league at the end of this season between the credit crunch (two words i fcuking hate) and club mismanagement we will lose at best three teams and a maybe more. and if that happens then darwins theory will sort it out.Football being football Bohs will make the league stages in Europe and keep us all in Noddy land for a few more years:D

[peadar1987]

What's the obsession that people have on this forum with endless structural change in the league....? :confused:

I don't see people perched on their bar stools in pubs up and down Ireland complaining that Irish football just doesn't do it for them because the league set-up isn't to their liking !

Fecking around with the structure is just a waste of energy and takes everyone's eyes of the real issues that are holding our league back. Lke poor facilities, incompetent club administration, absent marketing etc.

How's about making what we have work a bit better first, before worrying about what colour bow to rap the league up in...

The only problem I have with the current league structure is the likelihood that the top division will be over 50% Dublin teams. The barstoolers don't complain about the league structure in itself, but it's a fact the attendances in the first division are much lower than in the premier division. I can see a barstooler deciding not to go and watch Limerick, Finn Harps or Waterford because they're not in the top division of the league. If the premier league is dominated by Dublin teams this will harm football outside the capital.

Obviously the other things are of crucial importance, but you can't underestimate the negative effect the Dublin stranglehold could have on the league as a whole.

I'd like to see a huge investment in marketing the league in the buildup to the season, centrally organised by the FAI. Ads on constantly on RTÉ, posters up in towns, have the clubs visiting local schools and clubs. Get the money from anywhere, if they'd asked for it five years ago the government probably would have given them a grant.

That, and properly enforcing licensing obviously, would be two huge steps in the right direction