Should the Domestic players be playing on the national squad

[jay1]

Just testing the waters on this issue.

Should some of the players in the domestic premier league be playing on trappers team.

If you look at the Northern Ireland Squad a lot of their players would be playing in leagues of a similar standard to our premier league, yet Northern Ireland are on Top of their World Cup Qualifying Group??

Anyone?:)

[Tis-smeee]

No , not facing the quality or playing to a high enough standard to merit even a token call up

[Red&White Rover]

I don't think there's any players playing in the league atm that are capable of playing for the International squad.

However I do think two recent departee's would be capable of it, in Keith Fahey, and Seamus Coleman.

[SkStu]

i agree and would generally state that we dont have to validate our support for the league by whether or not we have players that would play internationally. Realistically at the moment, we should be developing players with a view to transferring them to the bigger leagues across the water. We should take pride in our players that successfully make the transition abroad (Foley, Coleman) and then, hopefully, international recognition (Doyle, Long). The FAI should do everything possible to aid our clubs in doing this. We should aim to be a selling league for now and to try and do that as well as possible with as much help as possible from "the powers that be".

[irishultra]

there should be a rule whereby 50 per cent of national teams must be home based or have played in national league. as i mentioned we are in the ludicrous position of having an entire squad based in one country that isnt our own

[Iorfa2MaccaJim]

I think so.

To be honest, we are a very small country, and we should avail of any avneue for players, provided there good enough of course.

I'd loved to see it.

[SkStu]

there should be a rule whereby 50 per cent of national teams must be home based or have played in national league. as i mentioned we are in the ludicrous position of having an entire squad based in one country that isnt our own

but tokenism or rules like your suggesting IU would just devalue an already struggling international game. You wouldnt see an influx of international standard into the league - 1) the league couldnt sustain the wages and 2) the players would just retire from international football as a result of (1).

At present there is nobody standing out as ready to contribute to the Irish set up and i think that, instead of introducing some wishy washy rules that would damage our international team in the long term, FIFA and the FAI should be looking at ensuring countries keep their young players at home for as long as possible developing them with clubs selling them on, making money that goes back to the clubs and rewards the best players.

[irishultra]

it would have long term benefit as people would then be forced to re-evaluate the mindset of getting that 'big' move to england. people who claim to be such fans of irish soccer would then have to give attention to LOI

[Philly]

Definately not. That's not to say that there aren't any players talented enough, there are a couple that would not look out of place in the current Irish side. Gamble in midfield springs to mind. However, even if Gamble (or whatever great LOI player you want in the squad) is good enough, he spends half the season playing against part-time and not-so-great teams. Just because the player is good enough doesn't mean they warrant a call-up. Thet have to consistantly be doing good in a good league, and the LOI unfortunately isn't good enough yet.

[Dyl10]

It's near impossible to tell at this level if someone has it or not.
So no, is my answer for now.

I would like to see 3 home based players in every squad, that's my bias view I suppose. Whether they would be good enough to be there or not, is another story.


Thet have to consistantly be doing good in a good league, and the LOI unfortunately isn't good enough yet.

I actually giggled when reading this post. Not a whole lot of our players are consistently doing well at the moment.
It's nothing to do with whether they are playing part time or full time, it's got to do with whether you add to the sqaud or whether there is someone who would add more.

If Joe Gamble would add more to the squad than Keith Fahey, it would be ridiculous to say Fahey should be in ahead because he's in England.

[irishultra]

Definately not. That's not to say that there aren't any players talented enough, there are a couple that would not look out of place in the current Irish side. Gamble in midfield springs to mind. However, even if Gamble (or whatever great LOI player you want in the squad) is good enough, he spends half the season playing against part-time and not-so-great teams. Just because the player is good enough doesn't mean they warrant a call-up. Thet have to consistantly be doing good in a good league, and the LOI unfortunately isn't good enough yet.

if everyone used that analogy then luka modric or eduardo would not have been selected by bilic while playing in croatia. as far as im concerned england sucks the uniqueness out of a player. its a disgrace that fahey wasnt called up on the back of his form with pats. sometimes i see why many loi fans dont care for national team. it would be nice to be able to see our players on a continous basis

in reality the english b team phrase is righ

[Philly]

So you think that Keith Fahy won't be a better player, and better equipped to compete at international level, now that he is in the Championship? Do you not think he's better off playing against the likes of Southampton or Crystal Palace or Reading, rather than Bray Wanderers or Dundalk? Get real. I'm an avid supporter of the domestic league but anybody who thinks a player from our league will up up to pace with players that play at a MUCH higher level week in week out has their head in the sand. Once again, I'm not saying that there aren't any players good enough. However, they aren't going to be able to hold their own in Bari if their last few games were against Part-Time teams in front of 800 people.

As for the comment about my team, Kildare County, obviously we don't have any players who are pushing for the international team, grow up. We do have a Kildare based squad of young players and, tripe as we may be at the moment, it's a team that are willing to try their damndest for their club.

Also, the Croatian League is miles ahead of ours. Sure, we've had the odd European upset in our favour, but if you put any top tier team from their league into our league, they would walk it, and would probably have the best facilities to boot.

Face it - playing well against Bray or UCD or Dundalk doesn't warrant an international call-up, no matter how good you are.

[osarusan]

Once again, I'm not saying that there aren't any players good enough. However, they aren't going to be able to hold their own in Bari if their last few games were against Part-Time teams in front of 800 people.

What you are saying is we don't really know if somebody is good enough or not until they've been tested at a higher level?

[Philly]

What you are saying is we don't really know if somebody is good enough or not until they've been tested at a higher level?

Pretty much. Until they have proven themselves to be consstently good at a higher level.

[RoversHead]

Are there any loi players better than mcshane if so you have your answer:)

[Sam_Heggy]

Brian Murphy off Bohs looks like he would be decent,i'd give him a few "B" games first.

I would say he is good enough for the squad.

As for players better then McShane.................. theres a young lad playing in a neighbouring garden here, at the age of 6, who is better then that tool.

I think our coaching methods could be looked at here first, if players are not fit enough coming from LOI to play in the English Championship then that could be somewhere to start.
If we still had Doyle, Long and co. still in the league, would they be internationals? They would still be the same players. The only way they would have improved is on their fitness or maybe the coaching.
If they were internationals then im sure crowds would increase as a result.
Its a knock on effect that I doubt will take on in my life time.

[ifk101]

The Scandinavian countries usually send national teams away on international duty during the Winter months. These teams would be made up of players playing domestically or in the other Scandinavian leagues. Sweden, for example, played Mexico and the US in friendly matches this January gone. I don't see why the FAI can't organise similar tours for our domestic based players during the Winter months.

[irishultra]

The Scandinavian countries usually send national teams away on international duty during the Winter months. These teams would be made up of players playing domestically or in the other Scandinavian leagues. Sweden, for example, played Mexico and the US in friendly matches this January gone. I don't see why the FAI can't organise similar tours for our domestic based players during the Winter months.

great idea

[Lionel Ritchie]

there should be a rule whereby 50 per cent of national teams must be home based or have played in national league. as i mentioned we are in the ludicrous position of having an entire squad based in one country that isnt our own

Unadministrable nonsense that'd end in farce. I won't even go near the ifs and buts of how and why anyone could get around it. It's self evident.


it would have long term benefit as people would then be forced to re-evaluate the mindset of getting that 'big' move to england. people who claim to be such fans of irish soccer would then have to give attention to LOI Here's my re-evaluation ...I can stay in Ireland and play for my home town club earning part-time wages just so I get to play international football with a team hogtied by a 50% part-timer rule thus increasing the risk we'll be hockeyed on a regular basis -OR I can retire from international football before I'm ever picked and go play football in England where, not alone could I make a much better living playing in the actual Premier League ...I could probably make a better one playing in the Blue Square Premier League and that playing in front of better attendances.


it would be nice to be able to see our players on a continous basis ...the ones picked are "our" players. The best players available should be picked regardless of who or where they play their club football.



in reality the english b team phrase is righ WTF? :rolleyes:

great idea ...now you want it both ways. You're unhappy to see the lack of LoI representation in the squad but are happy for the LOI players to be relegated to an effective LoI selection or at best an Ireland "B" squad to be sent off on friendly tours out of season? ...and to what end?

[irishultra]

i cant respond to that in full cause im using ps3 but when i say watch our players on a weekly basis i mean the way they can in germany austria switzerland scotland england spain etc etc. as i said bar one or two of our players they never even played a game in our league. that might be ok if it was one or two players but when its the same situation squad after squad, year after year decade after decade you really need to re-evualate the mindset of a country. 6+5 rule tbh i cant wait for

[EalingGreen]

If you look at the Northern Ireland Squad a lot of their players would be playing in leagues of a similar standard to our premier league, yet Northern Ireland are on Top of their World Cup Qualifying Group??

Really?

Fyi, the Starting XI which beat Slovenia on Wednesday was as follows:

Taylor (Birmingham City)
McAuley (Ipswich Town)
Hughes (Fulham)
Evans (Man.Utd.)
McCartney (Sunderland)
Johnson (Birmingham City)
Clingan (Norwich City)
McCann (Scunthorpe Utd.)
Davis (Rangers)
Healy (Sunderland)
Feeney (Dundee Utd.)

So that's 4 x English Premier League, 4 x Championship, 2 x SPL and 1 X English League One.

Now there may not be too many "stars" there, but there is still only one who might remotely be said to be playing at a similar standard to the Eircom, i.e. Grant McCann of Scunthorpe. And even there, I fail to see how a League such as the Eircom, the great majority of whose players are part-time, playing in poor stadia in front of crowds of a couple of thousand etc, may be said to be comparable to an entirely full-time set-up such as League One, which also has clubs like Leicester City and Leeds Utd etc.
And in any case, from his NI performances, it is a complete mystery to me how/why McCann is not playing at a higher level (though he might yet be next season, via the play-offs).
Moreover, had Chris Brunt (WBA) not been suspended, it is possible McCann might have only been on the bench anyhow.

P.S. Although NI are proving competitive in a decent enough Group, it should still be acknowledged that a key factor in our presently being top is that we are the only team to have played San Marino twice so far.

[jay1]

Really?

Fyi, the Starting XI which beat Slovenia on Wednesday was as follows:

Taylor (Birmingham City)
McAuley (Ipswich Town)
Hughes (Fulham)
Evans (Man.Utd.)
McCartney (Sunderland)
Johnson (Birmingham City)
Clingan (Norwich City)
McCann (Scunthorpe Utd.)
Davis (Rangers)
Healy (Sunderland)
Feeney (Dundee Utd.)

So that's 4 x English Premier League, 4 x Championship, 2 x SPL and 1 X English League One.

Now there may not be too many "stars" there, but there is still only one who might remotely be said to be playing at a similar standard to the Eircom, i.e. Grant McCann of Scunthorpe. And even there, I fail to see how a League such as the Eircom, the great majority of whose players are part-time, playing in poor stadia in front of crowds of a couple of thousand etc, may be said to be comparable to an entirely full-time set-up such as League One, which also has clubs like Leicester City and Leeds Utd etc.
And in any case, from his NI performances, it is a complete mystery to me how/why McCann is not playing at a higher level (though he might yet be next season, via the play-offs).
Moreover, had Chris Brunt (WBA) not been suspended, it is possible McCann might have only been on the bench anyhow.

P.S. Although NI are proving competitive in a decent enough Group, it should still be acknowledged that a key factor in our presently being top is that we are the only team to have played San Marino twice so far.

No offense but a lot of the teams such as ipswich,scunthorpe,Dundee,Norwich I wouldnt say are much better than say Cork,Bohs or Drogheda who remember last year almost knocked out Dynamo Kiev in a 2nd round Champions League qualifier with a 2-2 away Draw with Dynamo Kiev just loosing out 4-3 on aggregate. Dynamo kiev after that game went on to hammer spartak moscow in the 3rd round to qualify for the Champions league.

[EalingGreen]

No offense but a lot of the teams such as ipswich,scunthorpe,Dundee,Norwich I wouldnt say are much better than say Cork,Bohs or Drogheda who remember last year almost knocked out Dynamo Kiev in a 2nd round Champions League qualifier with a 2-2 away Draw with Dynamo Kiev just loosing out 4-3 on aggregate. Dynamo kiev after that game went on to hammer spartak moscow in the 3rd round to qualify for the Champions league.
No offence taken, so I hope you'll not take any offence when I state that I think you're barking if you seriously consider Cork, Bohs or Drogheda to be anything apporoaching the equal of Ipswich Town or Norwich City!
As for the other two teams, it's Dundee United of the SPL, not Dundee FC, whom Feeney plays for (though both can claim to be "bigger" in just about every respect than anything found in the Eircom).
As for Scunthorpe, granted they're not much of a team, though if you look at their stadium and crowds etc, they too exceed anything to be found in the Eircom:
http://www.scunthorpe-united.co.uk/page/GlanfordPark/0,,10442,00.html
In any case, League One only accounts for one player in the NI team, not the "many" to which I originally took exception.

P.S. As for your "Tale of what might have been" (Drogs in Europe), just Google "Ipswich Town", "Norwich City" and "Dundee United", along with "European football" and you'll see all three individually have records somewhat in excess of that of the entire Eircom League combined!

[Schumi]

Ipswich and Norwich's teams are well ahead of the League of Ìreland (no longer Eircom League) but Dundee United (including Noel Hunt) looked very ordinary when we played them in a friendly last year. Obviously it's only a friendly but I wouldn't dismiss the idea of LOI teams being on par with them.

[jay1]

No offence taken, so I hope you'll not take any offence when I state that I think you're barking if you seriously consider Cork, Bohs or Drogheda to be anything apporoaching the equal of Ipswich Town or Norwich City!
As for the other two teams, it's Dundee United of the SPL, not Dundee FC, whom Feeney plays for (though both can claim to be "bigger" in just about every respect than anything found in the Eircom).
As for Scunthorpe, granted they're not much of a team, though if you look at their stadium and crowds etc, they too exceed anything to be found in the Eircom:
http://www.scunthorpe-united.co.uk/page/GlanfordPark/0,,10442,00.html
In any case, League One only accounts for one player in the NI team, not the "many" to which I originally took exception.

P.S. As for your "Tale of what might have been" (Drogs in Europe), just Google "Ipswich Town", "Norwich City" and "Dundee United", along with "European football" and you'll see all three individually have records somewhat in excess of that of the entire Eircom League combined!

I am not saying anything bad about the Northern Ireland team in fact the opposite I admire them, I wish our team with its superstars could beat the likes of spain etc, unfortunately it could be a case of egos being too big with some players, it looks on the pitch like other players couldnt give a crap, and some are just wondering what they are doing there at all. I bet if we let our domestic players have a game like Jason Byrne etc they would do better than some of those Premiership Players. Anyway we will never find out because the Media picks our team for us.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Pretty much. Until they have proven themselves to be consstently good at a higher level.
I'd pretty much agree with that. Except for keepers- you can make an equal judgement with them easily.

[Umberside]

As for Scunthorpe, granted they're not much of a team, though if you look at their stadium and crowds etc, they too exceed anything to be found in the Eircom:
http://www.scunthorpe-united.co.uk/page/GlanfordPark/0,,10442,00.html


Glanford Park isn't as good as Turners Cross. It has two terraced stands compared to an all-seater venue in Cork, capacity 9,000 which is the same as us. I doubt Scunthorpe United get average crowds of 3-4,500 either.

[EalingGreen]

Glanford Park isn't as good as Turners Cross. It has two terraced stands compared to an all-seater venue in Cork, capacity 9,000 which is the same as us. I doubt Scunthorpe United get average crowds of 3-4,500 either.
I'm not sure where you get your information, but Glanford Park is seated on three sides, with terracing only in the popular home end (North Stand). They have plans to add a seated tier to this Stand, which would increase capacity further (over 10k mark?). And as Joey4Ireland notes, I hadn't thought TC's capacity to be as high as 9k.

As for crowds, Scunthorpe's home League crowds this season to date average 4,955. Should they maintain their Play-Off position, this will rise above the 5,000 mark for the whole season. How do Cork's crowds compare with that?

And if you're seeking another benchmark, these are the highest transfer fess paid by Scunthorpe:
Martin Paterson - £425,000 from Stoke City
Kevan Hurst - £200,000, from Sheffield United
Steve Torpey - £175,000, from Bristol City
David Mirfin - £125,000-£175,000 from Huddersfield Town
Martyn Woolford - £125,000, from York City
Billy Sharp - £100,000, from Sheffield United
Do Cork City pay* those sorts of fees, plus the wages which go with them?

Don't get me wrong, I am not seeking to denigrate the LOI, nor deny the progress it has made in recent years. However, some LOI fans appear to use that to assume an inflated sense of their League's standing vis-a-vis football in England/Scotland.

For if the LOI has come on in recent years, so have these other Leagues, often at a faster pace.


* - Using their own money, at any rate...;)

[Boh_So_Good]

Even if Pele, Mardonna and Cyuff were playing in the League of Ireland today and were Irish citizens by birth they would still never be picked to play for Ireland.

The reality is that the Ireland senior squad and it's supporters is a British experience. This is why I do not support them. They are no more "my" national team than England is.

[DRDoc]

Im of the opinion that Brian Murphy should be in the irish squad as back up to Given

[gustavo]

No offence taken, so I hope you'll not take any offence when I state that I think you're barking if you seriously consider Cork, Bohs or Drogheda to be anything apporoaching the equal of Ipswich Town or Norwich City!
As for the other two teams, it's Dundee United of the SPL, not Dundee FC, whom Feeney plays for (though both can claim to be "bigger" in just about every respect than anything found in the Eircom).
As for Scunthorpe, granted they're not much of a team, though if you look at their stadium and crowds etc, they too exceed anything to be found in the Eircom:
http://www.scunthorpe-united.co.uk/page/GlanfordPark/0,,10442,00.html
In any case, League One only accounts for one player in the NI team, not the "many" to which I originally took exception.

P.S. As for your "Tale of what might have been" (Drogs in Europe), just Google "Ipswich Town", "Norwich City" and "Dundee United", along with "European football" and you'll see all three individually have records somewhat in excess of that of the entire Eircom League combined!
How big their stadia are and how many fans they get is irrelevant to the argument

[topia]

I'm not sure where you get your information, but Glanford Park is seated on three sides, with terracing only in the popular home end (North Stand). They have plans to add a seated tier to this Stand, which would increase capacity further (over 10k mark?). And as Joey4Ireland notes, I hadn't thought TC's capacity to be as high as 9k.

As for crowds, Scunthorpe's home League crowds this season to date average 4,955. Should they maintain their Play-Off position, this will rise above the 5,000 mark for the whole season. How do Cork's crowds compare with that?

And if you're seeking another benchmark, these are the highest transfer fess paid by Scunthorpe:
Martin Paterson - £425,000 from Stoke City
Kevan Hurst - £200,000, from Sheffield United
Steve Torpey - £175,000, from Bristol City
David Mirfin - £125,000-£175,000 from Huddersfield Town
Martyn Woolford - £125,000, from York City
Billy Sharp - £100,000, from Sheffield United
Do Cork City pay* those sorts of fees, plus the wages which go with them?

Don't get me wrong, I am not seeking to denigrate the LOI, nor deny the progress it has made in recent years. However, some LOI fans appear to use that to assume an inflated sense of their League's standing vis-a-vis football in England/Scotland.

For if the LOI has come on in recent years, so have these other Leagues, often at a faster pace.


* - Using their own money, at any rate...;)

i think perhaps it could be just as easily argued that an inflated sense of these lower english leagues standings leads to such inflated transfer fees and not the actual quality of the players themselves.
i dont think you can judge the standard of a player by the amount of money spent on him or the wages he commands...there are players at all levels of the game that wound seem to be impersonating footballers yet getting paid obscene amounts of money

[Docboy]

The reality is that the Ireland senior squad and it's supporters is a British experience. This is why I do not support them. They are no more "my" national team than England is.

While you probably have a point in the sense that the Irish management more than likely doesn't give the league a fair go, your reference to the national team being a "British experience" is nonsense.

The vast majority of the Irish team was born & raised here but play their ball abroad as it is of a higher standard and they can garner a higher wage. Anyone would do the same in their position.

[EalingGreen]

How big their stadia are and how many fans they get is irrelevant to the argument
Could not disagree more!

In any professional team sport, the best teams have the best players (it's why they're the best teams, after all)
And the best players ultimately go where the money is.
And how much money a club can generate to sign and retain those players is fundamentally based on how "big" they are, as reflected in the crowds they can attract.
And to attract decent crowds, clubs need decent facilities in which to stage their games.
Which fundamentally explains why the leading LOI players generally end up moving to GB, where even mediocre clubs like Reading FC can offer them a whole lot more than clubs in their home country.

And whilst this may be regrettable in many respects, it's the way of the world*

* - That is, not just Ireland, since the whole of the world's best players are increasingly being attracted to the same few footballing Leagues.

[EalingGreen]

Even if Pele, Mardonna and Cyuff were playing in the League of Ireland today and were Irish citizens by birth they would still never be picked to play for Ireland.

Except that if Pele, Maradona and Cruyff were Irish citizens by birth, they wouldn't be playing in the LOI, to be ignored by Trapattoni & Co, in the first place! You can bet your bottom dollar that they'd be in England by the time they were 16 (if not earlier).



The reality is that the Ireland senior squad and it's supporters is a British experience. This is why I do not support them. They are no more "my" national team than England is.Of course you must be perfectly entitled to that opinion, but without meaning to patronise, I actually feel sorry for you.
For last week I watched NI beat Poland and Slovenia with a team made up entirely of GB-based players (though 10 of them born and raised in NI), and I couldn't have felt prouder.
And this has nothing to do with NI (technically, at least) being a "British" team, but everything to do with an appreciation that we could produce 11 players from our wee patch to do battle with, and beat, the best that two other bigger countries could produce.
Moreover, the fact that our players do not play for IL teams did not bother me one jot. For I fully accept their right to better themselves and provide for their families etc by moving across the water.
Indeed, it is precisely that desire to better themselves which, imo, accounts for their ability to "punch above their weight" when they come home to Windsor, since it gives them the pride, effort and self-respect which in the end made the difference against more talented opposition.
As for how my admiration of our GB-based players affects my view of their counterparts left in the IL, in the end I apply the same yardstick.
Namely, I would as happily pay my £9 to watch an IL game as I would e.g. my £25 to watch an English Championship game, so long as the team I was following at each was doing its best.
Indeed, that principle applies whether I am watching two pub teams in my local park on a Sunday morning, or the World Cup Final.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Excellent post EG.

[Straightstory]

[QUOTE= The reality is that the Ireland senior squad and it's supporters is a British experience. This is why I do not support them. They are no more "my" national team than England is.[/QUOTE]

This is perhaps a bit extreme, but I can sympathize to a degree. I started going to Ireland games in the early seventies. I missed one home game in fifteen years, until, due to the success of the team under Jack Charlton, it became more difficult to get tickets for the big, decisive games. However, I would still regularly attend until the latter days at Lansdowne Road. What has put me off in recent years?:
1. The realization that a large amount of the people going to see Ireland play were mostly fans of the Premiership - either barstoolers or people who made regular visits to Old Trafford or Anfield, but had never been to a game in their own country. Also - The 'Event Junkies". Traveling on the train in Paris en route to the Ireland v France game in 2004, I overheard a conversation between a group of Irish fans. They were discussing why they had selected to travel to this game. It had been a toss up between going to Paris, a Six Nations Rugby match, or an All Ireland GAA final. There was no way these people had ever set foot in Richmond Park or Tolka.
2. Fans in Celtic jerseys. An unwelcome development. Perhaps the last straw for me was at the Ireland v San Marino game a few years ago - the last home Ireland match I've attended. Singing along to 'The Fields of Athenry' - surely the dumbest song ever written - a group of Celtic jersey wearers in front of me inserted sectarian words 'Our love was on the wing SINN FEIN, we had dreams and songs to sing IRA' etc. This had, very unfortunately, become an increasingly popular chant at Lansdowne.
3. The move to Croke Park. With the GAA's history of sectarianism, bullying, bigotry, and firmly entrenched hostility to 'soccer', I was never going to feel at home there.
I shall more than likely go back to watching Ireland when they return to playing at the new Lansdowne Road, but I think I'll always feel more at home at LOI grounds. You get a more knowledgeable, committed, informed and passionate set of fans.
Should there be LOI players on the national team? I think this is not unrelated to Sepp Blatter's plans to have more home grown players in major club sides. It would mean there is some link between a national team and the national league of that country. I don't think there is any country in Europe where the discrepancy between National Team and National League is greater than Ireland. To have a rule whereby an international team should have at least one player from that team's national league seems to be not unreasonable. I think it would probably benefit football in this country.

[gustavo]

Could not disagree more!

In any professional team sport, the best teams have the best players (it's why they're the best teams, after all)
And the best players ultimately go where the money is.
And how much money a club can generate to sign and retain those players is fundamentally based on how "big" they are, as reflected in the crowds they can attract.
And to attract decent crowds, clubs need decent facilities in which to stage their games.
Which fundamentally explains why the leading LOI players generally end up moving to GB, where even mediocre clubs like Reading FC can offer them a whole lot more than clubs in their home country.

And whilst this may be regrettable in many respects, it's the way of the world*

* - That is, not just Ireland, since the whole of the world's best players are increasingly being attracted to the same few footballing Leagues.
So you're saying that the average attedance a player's club gets should be a concern when choosing if he is good enough for international football ? That's what we're discussing here

[EalingGreen]

This is perhaps a bit extreme, but I can sympathize to a degree. I started going to Ireland games in the early seventies. I missed one home game in fifteen years, until, due to the success of the team under Jack Charlton, it became more difficult to get tickets for the big, decisive games. However, I would still regularly attend until the latter days at Lansdowne Road. What has put me off in recent years?:
1. The realization that a large amount of the people going to see Ireland play were mostly fans of the Premiership - either barstoolers or people who made regular visits to Old Trafford or Anfield, but had never been to a game in their own country. Also - The 'Event Junkies". Traveling on the train in Paris en route to the Ireland v France game in 2004, I overheard a conversation between a group of Irish fans. They were discussing why they had selected to travel to this game. It had been a toss up between going to Paris, a Six Nations Rugby match, or an All Ireland GAA final. There was no way these people had ever set foot in Richmond Park or Tolka.
2. Fans in Celtic jerseys. An unwelcome development. Perhaps the last straw for me was at the Ireland v San Marino game a few years ago - the last home Ireland match I've attended. Singing along to 'The Fields of Athenry' - surely the dumbest song ever written - a group of Celtic jersey wearers in front of me inserted sectarian words 'Our love was on the wing SINN FEIN, we had dreams and songs to sing IRA' etc. This had, very unfortunately, become an increasingly popular chant at Lansdowne.
3. The move to Croke Park. With the GAA's history of sectarianism, bullying, bigotry, and firmly entrenched hostility to 'soccer', I was never going to feel at home there.
I shall more than likely go back to watching Ireland when they return to playing at the new Lansdowne Road, but I think I'll always feel more at home at LOI grounds. You get a more knowledgeable, committed, informed and passionate set of fans.
Should there be LOI players on the national team? I think this is not unrelated to Sepp Blatter's plans to have more home grown players in major club sides. It would mean there is some link between a national team and the national league of that country. I don't think there is any country in Europe where the discrepancy between National Team and National League is greater than Ireland. To have a rule whereby an international team should have at least one player from that team's national league seems to be not unreasonable. I think it would probably benefit football in this country.
V.Interesting post, Straightstory. To take your points in order:
1. Barstoolers. We NI fans haven't really had to worry about this in recent years, formerly because the barstoolers weren't interested in us when we were crap(!) and latterly because with capacity at Windsor progressively reduced to just under 15k and the block booking system, genuinely committed fans have a stranglehold on tickets.
Which imo is the main reason why the atmosphere at WP is absolutely fantastic at times. Here is what one visitor to WP said last week:
George Craig, Managing Director of Falkirk Football Club, was a special guest of the IFA Community Relations Department at Windsor Park for Northern Ireland’s impressive win over Slovenia and he claims Northern Ireland Fans are the best he has seen.
George said, “The Northern Ireland Fans did not stop singing. The noise and atmosphere created was incredible. That was the best atmosphere I have ever witnessed in British or Irish Football. You can see why these Fans are respected throughout world football”.
I know that some have complained that the capacity for the new Lansdowne is too low at 50k, but if that keeps out an extra 10-20k barstoolers, in the long run the improved atmosphere may help the team more than the missing gate receipts?

2. Celtic jerseys/FOA etc. Interesting, if saddening account. I hope people will forgive me in noting that if the Rangers equivalent were still happening at WP, we'd never hear the end about "Loyalist bigotry" etc. Oh well.
Anyhow, we used to have a similar problem with Rangers/Linfield fans in Red, White and Blue etc, with accompanying "party" tunes, but that has all but been eradicated (hopefully never to return).
Quite honestly, the overwhelming reason for this transformation was that the fans themselves took on the problem, initiating a "Sea of Green" campaign, which has been remarkably effective. Indeed, I'd say there are a few hardline Loyalists in Belfast for whom the only (fenian) green item in their entire wardrobe is an NI top! :D (And they know that if they ever tried to revive "The Sash" etc on the Kop, it would soon be drowned out by a chant of "Green and White Army"!)
http://www.seaofgreen.org.uk/pictures.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e45-jt7nqAM&feature=PlayList&p=4525D90550803C6F&index=2&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL

3. Croke Park. Obviously we have no equivalent experience in NI, but the importance of feeling "at home" should never be underestimated. Which is one of the reasons why the Maze Stadium - soulless, ill-designed, badly located etc - was never going to work. And it is also why although I still want a new, purpose-built football stadium in Belfast for NI, a part of me still hankers after a redesigned and enlarged Windsor - despite all its baggage and inherent inadequacies.
I'd guess the return to Lansdowne will do you a power of good, which you may not appreciate until it happens.

4. LOI players. I see your point, but I'd say that a FIFA Rule insisting that there be a minimum number of "Players who appear to give a Fcuk about representing their Country" would do international football a damned sight more good than a minimum number from the respective domestic leagues! ;)

[EalingGreen]

So you're saying that the average attedance a player's club gets should be a concern when choosing if he is good enough for international football ? That's what we're discussing here
No, that's not what I'm saying. :rolleyes:

Obviously there may be individual exceptions, but in the end, the best teams are the ones with the best players. And the best players tend to end up at the clubs which pay them the best wages. And the clubs who can afford to pay the best wages are generally those who have the best support.
Which basically explains why the best LOI players invariably end up going to GB, even as low as League One, rather than the other way round.
Which is why, if I were in Trapp's shoes, I would need a very compelling reason to look towards the LOI when picking players for the senior ROI team.

P.S. When he took over NI, Nigel Worthington (who started his career at Ballymena Utd, btw), was keen to try out IL players, but has since thought better of it. Granted, the IL may not be up to the standard of the LOI (though the Setanta Cup would suggest Linfield and Glentoran, and their players, are near enough the mark). Then again, NW doesn't have the same number and calibre of GB-based players to choose from as Trap, either.

[eamo1]

I always thought Owen Heary should have and still could get a cap.I suppose he didnt want to go to England but that guy could have played Premiership football.There has been FAR worse defenders and full backs in the premiership then him and also if Kelly can get a game at right back for Ireland then Heary should aswell.I've NEVER seen him have a bad game!!!

[tiktok]

Just because the player is good enough doesn't mean they warrant a call-up. Thet have to consistantly be doing good in a good league, and the LOI unfortunately isn't good enough yet.

Plenty of players in our current squad are warming the benches and not getting games at all in their 'good leagues', so by your logic, they shouldn't be picked. The conceit that someone is automatically better when they move to England is the kind of nonsense that saw Alan Bennett get a call up on the back of a reserve game for reading when he's been peforming at a consistently high level in the domestic league and against european competition for Cork City over a number of years.

If a player from the LoI is good enough, he's good enough. While at Pats, Fahey proved himself to be capable of matching and bettering any opposition he came up against in Europe, on the back of that he should ahve gotten a call-up.

Anyway, to answer the question, right now, no-one in the League is of a high enough standard, Barry Murphy as a back-up to given is probably the closest. Tokenism devalues both the national set-up and the domestic league and should be discouraged strongly.

[osarusan]

The conceit that someone is automatically better when they move to England is the kind of nonsense that saw Alan Bennett get a call up on the back of a reserve game for reading when he's been peforming at a consistently high level in the domestic league and against european competition for Cork City over a number of years.

In his defence and mine, we are not arguing that players "become better" as soon as they move to England.

Our point is that the quality of the opposition teams does play a part in deciding whether a player is ready for the national team or not. Seeing a player perform well against LOI teams is one thing - seeing the same player perform well 3 months later in the Championship or even Premier League is quite another. The player's ability will have improved marginally if at all in such a short space of time, but the standard of opposition against which the player has proven himself capable has changed significantly.

It is understandable that a national team manager would want to be as sure as possible that the player is up to international football, and I'm not sure that LOI allows a manager to see that.
(Whether the Championship does either is debatable, but it is at least closer to the level required)

Your point about exposure to European football is very valid though. even if a few games doesn't give the opportunity to determine consistency.

Your point about Bennett also, as he clearly hadn't proven himself capable, yet still got the call-up.

I think that there is a mentality of "If that (Premiership or Championship) club think he is good enough, that's good enough for the Irish squad" which needs to be eradicated.

[Scrufil]

Straightstory wrote:

Fans in Celtic jerseys. An unwelcome development. Perhaps the last straw for me was at the Ireland v San Marino game a few years ago - the last home Ireland match I've attended. Singing along to 'The Fields of Athenry' - surely the dumbest song ever written - a group of Celtic jersey wearers in front of me inserted sectarian words 'Our love was on the wing SINN FEIN, we had dreams and songs to sing IRA' etc. This had, very unfortunately, become an increasingly popular chant at Lansdowne.

The singing about the IRA might be regarded as sectarian, but singing about Sinn Féin is no more sectarian than using the words : Sinne Fianna Fáil during the Irish national anthem. Nor do I agree that the Fields of Athenry is a dumb song. Celtic shirts are as unwelcome a sight to me as any foreign shirt that attempts to draw links to Ireland. Even certain League of Ireland shirts like Home Farm Everton in the past were enough to make me want to vomit, not to mention the current dubious policy of the likes of Derry becoming a feeder club for Celtic. I cannot see for the life of me how a stated policy of this type does not contravene EU trade laws.

How does anyone seriously expect any League of Ireland player to make the senior international squad when there is no free weekend/midweek preceeding Irish International games? It is hard enough when teams lose players to U21 international matches.

Jay O'Shea for me could easily replace Damien Duff on the Irish squad. There have always been great goalkeepers in the League of Ireland and I think there ought to be at least one in the current Irish senior squad.

In reality until League of Ireland teams start to progress further in Europe and hold onto the players that aided this passage then there is no likelihood of League of Ireland players getting recognition from Irish management.

[pól-dcfc]

not to mention the current dubious policy of the likes of Derry becoming a feeder club for Celtic.

Are you sure about this or are you drawing conclusions from the fact that we have sold two players to Celtic in the past year?

[Scrufil]

It was very surely mooted by both Celtic and Derry for this to be the case. I daresay if you dig you will see other clubs, often junior clubs create these ties too.