Which players in your opinion got too many or too few senior international caps? [Archive]

Irish_Praha

04/04/2009, 4:57 PM

This was discussed last week on BBC Radio 5 Live about the UK teams but I thought I'd hold off on a thread about Ireland until we needed something extra to keep us busy when the dust had setteled on the two qualifiers.

In your opinion what player(s) got too many international caps and who got too few (none even) and give your reasons why.

Such things as too many because there just wasn't any decent competition for his position at the time, he was a pet player of a particular manager, he lived too long off past glories athough he was well past his best and so on.
Or too few because his talent was simply overlooked, he had the talent but had a lazy/stinky attitude, he had a falling out with the wrong person, injury, there was such strong competition for his position at the time but if he was around now he would be in the starting 11, he played for the wrong team in the wrong league and so on.

Hopefully it will raise some interesting debate.

I would have liked to have seen Owen Coyle given a few more caps. I know he played mainly at a low level but he always scored a load of goals and continued to do so into his late 30's. Maybe international football was beyond him but he should have been given more caps to prove this. David Kelly and Tommy Coyne made the 1994 WC squad so you never know.

Being a small country there have been of course lots of players capped at international level due to lack of competition. The one name that springs to mind is Alan Kernaghan with 26 caps. I know some people will now put McShane in this category :D

irishfan86

04/04/2009, 7:16 PM

Alan O'Brien should never have been capped, and Lapira probably joins him in that category.

Dean Kiely and Lee Carsley didn't get as many caps as their talent should have got them because there was simply too much competition in their positions.

Back when we had some issues with striker options, I would have liked to have given Lee Trundle a run out in a friendly or two to see how he would have done. He's on the wrong side of 30 now and isn't as good as he was, but at his peak he was prolific, albeit at a lower level.

Umberside

04/04/2009, 8:36 PM

Who has the record for the most appearances for the Republic of Ireland?:confused:

irishfan86

04/04/2009, 8:44 PM

Who has the record for the most appearances for the Republic of Ireland?:confused:

I think Staunton holds the record with 102 caps, but Shay and Kilbane are in the mid 90s, and Robbie has 88, so one of those will break the record within the next year or two.

Fergie's Son

04/04/2009, 9:32 PM

I don't think John Sheridan got enough caps. He was a class player.

I believe Kilbane has been overcapped. Yes he gives his all for Ireland but there were times when he was truly, truly awful.

Boh_So_Good

04/04/2009, 9:36 PM

I don't think John Sheridan got enough caps. He was a class player.

Absolutely.

Crosby87

04/04/2009, 9:40 PM

Packie Bonner as the laughter that went around after his name was called caused me great anxiety as a child.

irishfan86

04/04/2009, 10:10 PM

I believe Kilbane has been overcapped. Yes he gives his all for Ireland but there were times when he was truly, truly awful.

I agree that based on talent he probably shouldn't have been capped as much as he has been, but he filled a void for us on the left side of midfield when we didn't have better options, and now is filling a void at left full where we are just as short as we used to be at left mid.

So, while he has definitely benefited with a shortage of competition in his positions, I don't think he has been played at the expense of better players.

Manc Irish Wolf

04/04/2009, 10:49 PM

Good Debate.

Players who I would have liked to have seen capped more would be John Sheridan, Owen Coyle, John Byrne and Bernie Slaven who I always thought were good intelligent players, the latter three with a great eye for goal.

Playes who should have made made the grade if it wasn't for their love of the good life is Keiron Byrne, Thomas Butler & Sean Thornton (Sunderland), Tony Sheridan (Coventry) & Lee Power (Norwich).

Current players who have been under-capped is Kevin Foley (should have been blooded a year ago), Keith Andrews (Never fulfilled his early potential at Wolves) as well as Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid for obvious reasons.

Don't like to criticise any player in a green shirt too heavily. Worried that Killer is going to damage his reputation the longer that he plays. Also, a pity that Don Givens was ever capped (or even took up a career in football).

Denis The Red

04/04/2009, 11:18 PM

Denis The Red

04/04/2009, 11:35 PM

Also, a pity that Don Givens was ever capped (or even took up a career in football).:D

For sure, he should stay away from football for the same reason some people should stay away from a box of matches.

bennocelt

05/04/2009, 10:27 AM

I don't think John Sheridan got enough caps. He was a class player.

I believe Kilbane has been overcapped. Yes he gives his all for Ireland but there were times when he was truly, truly awful.

yeah Kilbane for me

livehead1

05/04/2009, 10:37 AM

I think Clinton Morrison should have had more caps. Not everyone's cup of tea but the lad's really game. He always gives 100%. Not the most graceful player but if you wanted someone to p1ss off defences he's your man.
Shades of Jackism maybe but what did Robbie's goal against Italy remind you of???

Loved watching Morrison play for Ireland, was talking to a lad I know who also play's at Coventry and nobody has been in touch with Morrison since Trap took over so I think it's safe to say he won't play for us again.

Jicked

05/04/2009, 11:17 AM

Loved watching Morrison play for Ireland, was talking to a lad I know who also play's at Coventry and nobody has been in touch with Morrison since Trap took over so I think it's safe to say he won't play for us again.
Morisson was named in Trapattoni's initial squad!

Razors left peg

05/04/2009, 11:22 AM

Cant help but think Kilbane has been over capped, just wish that Steven Reid had Kilbanes imuneness to injuries

irishultra

05/04/2009, 12:05 PM

Paul Osam should have been capped:cool:

so much for homogenous ireland....

osam, mcgrath, babb, fleming, phelan ;)

Tis-smeee

05/04/2009, 7:27 PM

Second I saw this thread I knew it was open season on Kilbane , I would have Liked to see Ronnie O Brien get a run at the height of his powers

Greenbod

05/04/2009, 7:40 PM

Good Debate.

Also, a pity that Don Givens was ever capped (or even took up a career in football).

I know he's judged now on his u-21 management job but you wouldn't say the above if you'd been around to see his 7 goals against Russia and Turkey in '74/'75. He deserved every cap he got and held the top scoring record for us for about 10 years before Stapleton passed him out. He was also very proud to represent his country.....

"Nothing means half as much as standing when the national anthem is playing, " Don reflects on his international career. "When I stood for the national anthem during my first game at home against Hungary, it was probably the biggest thing that I'll remember. It's what separates international football from club football. I think that's something I'll never forget."

Hibernian

05/04/2009, 7:41 PM

Second I saw this thread I knew it was open season on Kilbane , I would have Liked to see Ronnie O Brien get a run at the height of his powers

ya said the same thing....

like to have seen clinton get more caps..

boovidge

05/04/2009, 9:02 PM

Steven Reid has way too few caps.

Manc Irish Wolf

05/04/2009, 10:04 PM

I know he's judged now on his u-21 management job but you wouldn't say the above if you'd been around to see his 7 goals against Russia and Turkey in '74/'75. He deserved every cap he got and held the top scoring record for us for about 10 years before Stapleton passed him out. He was also very proud to represent his country.....

"Nothing means half as much as standing when the national anthem is playing, " Don reflects on his international career. "When I stood for the national anthem during my first game at home against Hungary, it was probably the biggest thing that I'll remember. It's what separates international football from club football. I think that's something I'll never forget."

That statement was more said in jest, as I know that he was highly regarded and had a good goalscoring record, which I dare say was a joy to watch.

However, not being born then, my only interest is in the future of the team and it just seems such a pity that Don doesn't recall the pride he felt in representing his country more vividly when he sets about his pedantic ways trying to sabotage other young players dreams and ambitions through his continual petty arguments.

Fizzer

05/04/2009, 10:26 PM

Jeff Kenna probably didn't get enough caps. Just unfortunate he was around at a time when we had loads of quality full backs. We could do with them now.

zenokelly

05/04/2009, 10:32 PM

Most have been posted already. 1 from each that haven't been mentioned yet

Too few: Steve Finnan. (Champions League winning right back, and most consistent right back in the Prem yet couldn't get in to Kerr's Ireland)

Too many: Alan Lee (What a poor player, he's hot no place at international football - 9 caps and now he doesn't want to play for us, should be the other way around)

Fergie's Son

05/04/2009, 11:17 PM

Paul Osam should have been capped:cool:

so much for homogenous ireland....

Oh please. Don't be a WUM. He never, ever good enough for Ireland. What nonsense.

Mcgeady46

05/04/2009, 11:32 PM

not enough caps - Graham Kavanagh

SilkCut

06/04/2009, 5:58 AM

Jim Beglin and Tony Galvin especially Beglin would surely have won more caps except for injury.

Superhoops

06/04/2009, 6:51 AM

Roy Keane won 67 caps, his first against Chile in May 1991 and his last in against France in September 2005.

By my reckoning during that period Ireland played 145 international matches which meant that Keane only played in 46% of those games. For the best player of his generation that is quite low.

I can't help thinking that the 'Man.U factor' (Ferguson's reluctance to release players for international games) cost him at least 25 more caps and his own 'gremlins' cost him several more caps. He really should have gone on to reach the 100.

endabob1

06/04/2009, 7:51 AM

Finnan, Kenna & Sheridan had the misfortune of being in their prime when Ireland were over-run with quality players in their positions & Sheridan never quite fitted the Charlton mould of energetic box to box midfielder.
Dave O'Leary is another, Charltons preference for the Moran, McCarthy partnership prevented Dave from getting more caps, 68 caps in 17 years!!!
Dean Kiely & Alan Kelly would have a lot more caps but for Given, Kiely in particular in his prime with Charlton was an excellent shot stopper, only 10 caps.

The Keane stats are interesting, the best player of a generation with substantially less caps than the likes of Cass or Kilbane is something he should reflect on, that said I'm sure his collection of medals makes up for it.

Plenty of players curtailed by injury, Steven Reid & Jim Beglin even an argument that Whelan should have won more caps but for persistent niggling injuries.

seanfhear

06/04/2009, 8:58 AM

Sean StLedger could do with getting 1 cap in a friendly for Trap to have a look at him in the flesh:)

gustavo

06/04/2009, 9:34 AM

Finnan, Kenna & Sheridan had the misfortune of being in their prime when Ireland were over-run with quality players in their positions & Sheridan never quite fitted the Charlton mould of energetic box to box midfielder.
Dave O'Leary is another, Charltons preference for the Moran, McCarthy partnership prevented Dave from getting more caps, 68 caps in 17 years!!!
Dean Kiely & Alan Kelly would have a lot more caps but for Given, Kiely in particular in his prime with Charlton was an excellent shot stopper, only 10 caps.

Can you really say they got too few caps though if there were better players ahead of them?

I mean that's the way teams are picked ,Just an argument really . I know these are all good players you're talking about

Superhoops

06/04/2009, 10:50 AM

... The Keane stats are interesting, the best player of a generation with substantially less caps than the likes of Cass or Kilbane is something he should reflect on, that said I'm sure his collection of medals makes up for it......

Which could be construed as meaning that playing for Ireland was secondary to winning medals??

Kevin Kilbane now has 94 caps. By my reckoning since he got his first in 1997, Ireland has played 114 games, giving him an appearance rate of 82% of all games played. That is some record for an outfield player. If ever someone deserved to get to 100 it is KK.

Royal rover

06/04/2009, 5:24 PM

mark kennedy is one player i always thought should of got more caps - sheridan was pure class, i remember watching him against spain in dublin - we brought him on when we were 3.0 down - i couldn't understand why Jack didn't play him from the off - i think Brady could of got a few more as well - i would of loved to have seen him in euro 88 - keith o'neil would of been a great player apart from injury -
likewise mark kelly in the 80's - kevin o'callaghan was also a good player i remember him at millwall with sheringham and Cascarino

worst players in recent times who got a few caps
Gary Doherty
Jonathan douglas

Superhoops

06/04/2009, 6:45 PM

John83

06/04/2009, 6:58 PM

Just looked up Shay Given's record.

93 caps since making debut against Russia in March 1996. Since then, by my reckoning Ireland has played 130 games, giving him a 71.5% appearance rate. Before looking up I thought it was higher.

Puts Kilbane's effort in perspective though.
Given's had a few more injury problems than Kilbane though. He missed a long spell with a broken hand around 2000 or so, didn't he?

SkStu

06/04/2009, 7:00 PM

i think he has had a few niggly injuries in his time alright - each time he regained fitness he had troubles dislodging Harper from the position at Newcastle - always regained his place in the end obviously.

Superhoops

06/04/2009, 7:18 PM

Given's had a few more injury problems than Kilbane though. He missed a long spell with a broken hand around 2000 or so, didn't he?

He didn't play between May 1999 and April 2000 missing 8 games played between June 1999 and February 2000.

tetsujin1979

06/04/2009, 9:47 PM

Alan Kelly was the first choice keeper at the start of the 2002 qualifiers as well

noddy102

07/04/2009, 7:46 AM

David Kelly was unlucky to have been in his prime around the same time as Quinn, Cascarino and Aldrdige.

Keith O'Neill and Richard Sadiler would have won more caps, only for injuries.

endabob1

07/04/2009, 12:32 PM

Which could be construed as meaning that playing for Ireland was secondary to winning medals??

Deliberately left open ended to see which side of the fence people would fall ;)

Personally I would rather captain my country than to add another silver medal to my collection but that's just me opinion

fergalr

07/04/2009, 12:41 PM

Too many : Lapira
Too few: the likes of Sheedy, Sheridan, Irwin spring to mind.

jbyrne

07/04/2009, 3:27 PM

Too few: the likes of Sheedy, Sheridan, Irwin spring to mind.

retired far too early. could have gone to wc2002 if he really wanted and done a job for us too. could never understand why he retired when he did

Irish_Praha

07/04/2009, 3:32 PM

Too many : Lapira
Too few: the likes of Sheedy, Sheridan, Irwin spring to mind.

Irwin is a good one, I didn't realise he only had 56 caps but he only got his first cap at 25 so that would explain that. It looks like he was overlooked at senior level until he moved from Oldham to Man Utd. So maybe if Foley makes it into the Premiership next year he will have a chance of getting into the team.

jbyrne

07/04/2009, 4:00 PM

Irwin is a good one, I didn't realise he only had 56 caps but he only got his first cap at 25 so that would explain that. It looks like he was overlooked at senior level until he moved from Oldham to Man Utd. So maybe if Foley makes it into the Premiership next year he will have a chance of getting into the team.

irwin stated at the time that he was more interested in his move to man utd than going to the 1990 wc finals. to my memory he was only beginning to get notice just before then anyway

bennocelt

07/04/2009, 4:11 PM

retired far too early. could have gone to wc2002 if he really wanted and done a job for us too. could never understand why he retired when he did

as far as i can remember Mick the Pr said that Irwin had to prove himself - imagine Irwin having to do that!!!!! Thats why he wasnt to bothered afterwards playing for Maccarthy
Short end of careers to Irwin, Aldo, Mcgrath and Keane tx to Mick

seanfhear

07/04/2009, 4:29 PM

retired far too early. could have gone to wc2002 if he really wanted and done a job for us too. could never understand why he retired when he did
He was the best Irish left back by a country mile even at this stage of his career.

as far as i can remember Mick the Pr said that Irwin had to prove himself - imagine Irwin having to do that!!!!! Thats why he wasnt to bothered afterwards playing for Maccarthy
Short end of careers to Irwin, Aldo, Mcgrath and Keane tx to Mick
Do I remember correctly Mick McCarthy playing Denis Irwin as one of 3 central defenders in a friendly against Iceland in one of his first games in charge and it turned out to be a disaster. Micks idea must have been to play Denis as a sweeper.
It seems crazy now and it was then.
I don't think it was too much later that Denis called it a day and I have often wondered if Mick McCarth's mishandling of Denis Irwin was behind a lot of the contempt that Roy Keane had for Mick.
Its just a theory and all above may not be completely accurate, the old memory is not what it..............

Irish_Praha

07/04/2009, 7:12 PM

as far as i can remember Mick the Pr said that Irwin had to prove himself - imagine Irwin having to do that!!!!! Thats why he wasnt to bothered afterwards playing for Maccarthy
Short end of careers to Irwin, Aldo, Mcgrath and Keane tx to Mick

That's not really fair; McGrath and Aldrige were both about 38 when they retired from International football. I wouldn't really call that early retirement in football terms. I don't really know about the relationship between McCarthy and Irwin but he was probably good enough to start for us for another few years eventhough he was 33/34 when he retired. I'll leave the Keane issue to another thread :p

Stuttgart88

07/04/2009, 8:52 PM

Do I remember correctly Mick McCarthy playing Denis Irwin as one of 3 central defenders in a friendly against Iceland in one of his first games in charge and it turned out to be a disaster. I thought it was Keane at CB in a 0-0 draw against Iceland at home in a qualifier.

By the time Irwin retired I had the firm impression his heart wasn't in it anyway, playing for MUFC was far more important to him. Maybe it was because he didn't rate Mick and in Mick's case I'd say he was happy managing all the less celebrated players but was maybe intimidated by the 2 MUFC stars. Just an impression..

Irish_Praha

07/04/2009, 9:01 PM

I thought it was Keane at CB in a 0-0 draw against Iceland at home in a qualifier.

I might be just imagining this but didn't Ian Harte get a run out in the centre of defence at the start of McCarthy's reign? I don't know if that's right or not but it must of been a disaster if it did happen.

BigmanCas

07/04/2009, 9:02 PM

I thought it was Keane at CB in a 0-0 draw against Iceland at home in a qualifier.

By the time Irwin retired I had the firm impression his heart wasn't in it anyway, playing for MUFC was far more important to him. Maybe it was because he didn't rate Mick and in Mick's case I'd say he was happy managing all the less celebrated players but was maybe intimidated by the 2 MUFC stars. Just an impression..

Who was it that asked Irwin to prove himself in 1996????

El Tel the then England manager asked on TV about it laughed and said "Irwin is not only the best left back in the league but the best right back"
Mc Carthy had Irwin wrong.

John83

07/04/2009, 9:08 PM

I might be just imagining this but didn't Ian Harte get a run out in the centre of defence at the start of McCarthy's reign? I don't know if that's right or not but it must of been a disaster if it did happen.
Harte did get played at centre half at least once; must have been one of his first caps.

I do remember Irwin bringing up that McCarthy having asked him to prove himself, but not when it was supposed to have been said.