Which players in your opinion got too many or too few senior international caps? [Archive] - Page 2

Superhoops

07/04/2009, 9:08 PM

I thought it was Keane at CB in a 0-0 draw against Iceland at home in a qualifier.....

Played on 10th November 1996, the team was;
A.Kelly, J.Kenna (K.Cunningham), D.Irwin (I.Harte), R.Keane, G.Breen, P.Babb, A. McLoughlin, J.McAteer, D.Kelly (A.Moore), T.Cascarino, A.Townsend.

Denis Irwin played in 13 games after that and did not play his last game until 3 years later, 17th November 1999 against Turkey in Bursa in the second leg of the 2000 UEFA play off tie.

Stuttgart88

07/04/2009, 9:10 PM

I might be just imagining this but didn't Ian Harte get a run out in the centre of defence at the start of McCarthy's reign? I don't know if that's right or not but it must of been a disaster if it did happen.Yes it's true, mainly beside Cunningham I think. I thought he did ok at a time where it was obvious we should have cut young players some slack but he got a lot of severe criticism from people I used to speak to.

Stuttgart88

07/04/2009, 9:12 PM

Who was it that asked Irwin to prove himself in 1996????

El Tel the then England manager asked on TV about it laughed and said "Irwin is not only the best left back in the league but the best right back"
Mc Carthy had Irwin wrong.Irwin scored in our 2-0 win over Croatia in Sept 98. Irwin must have proved himself in the meantime :)

My point still stands, I think Mick was never fully comfortable with the 2 MUFC guys.

(Edit: just saw superhoops' response)

BigmanCas

07/04/2009, 9:21 PM

Irwin scored in our 2-0 win over Croatia in Sept 98. Irwin must have proved himself in the meantime :)

My point still stands, I think Mick was never fully comfortable with the 2 MUFC guys.

(Edit: just saw superhoops' response)

The point is that the guy should not have had to. He was a legend and one of the greatest full backs ever to play the game, and for Mc Carthy (who I'm a fan of generally) to say that is embarrassing, it had the England manager laughing.

Stuttgart88, of course he was going to prove himself all he had to do was play one game and it would have been plain for McCarthy to see what a class act he was!!!

Stuttgart88

07/04/2009, 9:24 PM

The point is that the guy should not have had to.Agreed.

Irish_Praha

07/04/2009, 9:25 PM

Played on 10th November 1996, the team was;
A.Kelly, J.Kenna (K.Cunningham), D.Irwin (I.Harte), R.Keane, G.Breen, P.Babb, A. McLoughlin, J.McAteer, D.Kelly (A.Moore), T.Cascarino, A.Townsend.

Denis Irwin played in 13 games after that and did not play his last game until 3 years later, 17th November 1999 against Turkey in Bursa in the second leg of the 2000 UEFA play off tie.

The 1998 WC qualifiers are probably the most hazy period of Irish international football for me since I started following the team for the EC '88 qualifers.
I was only 19 and a bit disillusioned to see Jack and most of our top-class squad go past their sell-by date. Basically the team I had followed since I took an interest in football. Losing the play-off to Holland in 95 was heart-breaking. Then I spent the Summer of 96 living on a campsite in Holland and missed any of the hype involving the start of the new campaign. I came back to my senses for the Euro 2000 qualifiers though :D

Superhoops

07/04/2009, 10:09 PM

Irwin scored in our 2-0 win over Croatia in Sept 98. Irwin must have proved himself in the meantime :)...

He had his most prolific spell of scoring under Mick :D

Prior to the goal, a penalty, in that 2-0 against Croatia he scored a fizzer of a free kick in the home leg of the 1998 WC Play off tie against Belgium in October 1997. He then got another penalty in the 2-0 against Paraguay in February 1999.

During his 56 cap career, he only scored one other goal, in April 1992 in a 4-1 against USA in Dublin, again from a free kick.

bennocelt

08/04/2009, 8:31 AM

That's not really fair; McGrath and Aldrige were both about 38 when they retired from International football. I wouldn't really call that early retirement in football terms. I don't really know about the relationship between McCarthy and Irwin but he was probably good enough to start for us for another few years eventhough he was 33/34 when he retired. I'll leave the Keane issue to another thread :p

wonder do people actually look at football!:eek:

Yeah McGrath and Aldo were old - but still good enough to do a job in the qualifiers - McGrath was still getting MOM performances with his club (Including Derby V Man utd/Villa), and he dropped McGrath to play Harte in central defence where Harte proceeded to mess up in two important games (Macedonia/Romania)where he was at fault for two goals (I will never forget this!). Even a McGrath at 38 and with a dodgy knee would still not have made the silly mistakes Harte did -(one was a weak header that went straight to the attacker who then scored)
As for Aldo he desperately wanted to get the record and I thought and many people thought that he could have played against the mighty Lichtenstein
Then the next game was 0-0 versus Lithuania

anyway a lot of foot.ie people love their stats - maybe they should watch the football instead:)

jbyrne

08/04/2009, 1:08 PM

wonder do people actually look at football!:eek:

Yeah McGrath and Aldo were old - but still good enough to do a job in the qualifiers - McGrath was still getting MOM performances with his club (Including Derby V Man utd/Villa), and he dropped McGrath to play Harte in central defence where Harte proceeded to mess up in two important games (Macedonia/Romania)where he was at fault for two goals (I will never forget this!). Even a McGrath at 38 and with a dodgy knee would still not have made the silly mistakes Harte did -(one was a weak header that went straight to the attacker who then scored)
As for Aldo he desperately wanted to get the record and I thought and many people thought that he could have played against the mighty Lichtenstein
Then the next game was 0-0 versus Lithuania

anyway a lot of foot.ie people love their stats - maybe they should watch the football instead:)

mcgrath squeezed every ounce out of his international career. after he retired from the international team in 97 he played all of 12 more club games. i was at his testimonial where he could only appear as a sub so badly was he suffering from injuries

Stuttgart88

08/04/2009, 2:53 PM

bennocelt

08/04/2009, 3:19 PM

mcgrath squeezed every ounce out of his international career. after he retired from the international team in 97 he played all of 12 more club games. i was at his testimonial where he could only appear as a sub so badly was he suffering from injuries

did you read my post! the point is that McGrath was getting MOM performances at THAT time - hence he was ready for the Macedonia game - I know he wouldn't have played on too long after that but the point is a manager should use the best thats available and Harte in CD was proven not to be and badly so, McGrath even to play in one game for us wouldnt have been worse than Harte at that time

jbyrne

08/04/2009, 4:43 PM

did you read my post! the point is that McGrath was getting MOM performances at THAT time - hence he was ready for the Macedonia game - I know he wouldn't have played on too long after that but the point is a manager should use the best thats available and Harte in CD was proven not to be and badly so, McGrath even to play in one game for us wouldnt have been worse than Harte at that time

if mcgrath was still the best option he would have been picked. its the managers opinion that counts and god bless your memory if you can remember that mcgrath was actually fit enough for those matches you say harte replaced him for

edit. just came accross this article. it appears that he was actually injured for the two games you refer to:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/republic-leave-mcgrath-out-1267698.html

bennocelt

08/04/2009, 4:52 PM

if mcgrath was still the best option he would have been picked. its the managers opinion that counts and god bless your memory if you can remember that mcgrath was actually fit enough for those matches you say harte replaced him for

jesus h chriss - yeah cause football is just like that!!!!! We are talking about Mick Macca here you know

And yes i do remember cause a) I am a big McGrath fan and b) i cant get that terrible header out of my head!!!!!
Football can be funny like that - some of us can be cynical to the end and have very long memories, very long ones!:)

jbyrne

08/04/2009, 4:55 PM

jesus h chriss - yeah cause football is just like that!!!!! We are talking about Mick Macca here you know

And yes i do remember cause a) I am a big McGrath fan and b) i cant get that terrible header out of my head!!!!!
Football can be funny like that - some of us can be cynical to the end and have very long memories, very long ones!:)

refer to my edited post for reasons why he was not in the two squads you refer to. he personally agreed he was not fit enough to play romania and pulled out with an achilles injury just before macedonia

fergalr

08/04/2009, 10:35 PM

Superhoops

09/04/2009, 6:44 AM

Back to Irwin.

As far as my faulty memory goes, his lowish cap total was not just down to McCarthy. He could have been brought into the senior squad earlier by Charlton and could/should haven been on the plane to Italia 90. Four years later and he could not get in the team for the 2nd round defeat to Holland. I was never of the opinion that Phelan was a better left back nor was Garry Kelly a better right back than Dennis.
Denis Irwin had not even been capped by the time the 1990 WC finals were played. Although he had been playing well for Oldham at the time and really only came into prominence in the FA Cup semi final games that April against ManU., I don't think at the time he was ahead of Morris or Staunton and even though Chris Hughton was coming to the end of his career, he probably deserved his squad place ahead of Irwin.

In 1994 WCF, Irwin played in the first 2 games against Italy and Mexico. I may be wrong, but I thought he was injured for the game aganst Norway and was replaced by Gary Kelly, who then held onto his place against Holland.

jbyrne

09/04/2009, 7:45 AM

In 1994 WCF, Irwin played in the first 2 games against Italy and Mexico. I may be wrong, but I thought he was injured for the game aganst Norway and was replaced by Gary Kelly, who then held onto his place against Holland.

he was suspended. picked up a 2nd yellow for taking all of about 9 secs to take a throw in v mexico

Superhoops

09/04/2009, 9:40 AM

he was suspended. picked up a 2nd yellow for taking all of about 9 secs to take a throw in v mexico

Good one. Knew there was something but could not remember what.

Drumcondra 69er

09/04/2009, 10:24 AM

I know he's judged now on his u-21 management job but you wouldn't say the above if you'd been around to see his 7 goals against Russia and Turkey in '74/'75. He deserved every cap he got and held the top scoring record for us for about 10 years before Stapleton passed him out. He was also very proud to represent his country.....

"Nothing means half as much as standing when the national anthem is playing, " Don reflects on his international career. "When I stood for the national anthem during my first game at home against Hungary, it was probably the biggest thing that I'll remember. It's what separates international football from club football. I think that's something I'll never forget."

Agree. He is a total disaster as a manger though and is a bit of an arse from all accounts, my old fella met him in Italy last week and said he was up his own hole and all.

Own Coyle was teh forst name that came to mind for me, I thought he should have gone to US '94 once Quinn was stopped from going, especially as CAs was carrying a knock. He could have given us something different.

Sheridan could have had more caps but he was one of the few that were in all of the 88, 90 and 94 squads (Thursday teaser, can anyone name the rest?).

Clint should still be in the squad, Trundle should have had a cap, Delap should have more caps for me given some that have played in midfield in recent years. Liam Lawrence should definitely have a cap by now, you could go on all day.....

Drumcondra 69er

09/04/2009, 10:30 AM

mark kennedy is one player i always thought should of got more caps - sheridan was pure class, i remember watching him against spain in dublin - we brought him on when we were 3.0 down - i couldn't understand why Jack didn't play him from the off - i think Brady could of got a few more as well - i would of loved to have seen him in euro 88 - keith o'neil would of been a great player apart from injury -
likewise mark kelly in the 80's - kevin o'callaghan was also a good player i remember him at millwall with sheringham and Cascarino

worst players in recent times who got a few caps
Gary Doherty
Jonathan douglas

Two match ban (reduced from 3 on appeal) and then injury put paid to that, there's a bit of a myth going on that Charlton shafted Brady out of playing in a major finals but a myth is all it is (probably due to the uncerimonious way he hauled him off against Germany in the friendly), by the time Italia 90 came round Brady was nearly permenantly injured and wasn't worth a place in the squad, Gary Waddock was the man to feel shafted that year if anyone.

Bit harsh on the Doc, gave his all and scored a few important goals.

Drumcondra 69er

09/04/2009, 10:38 AM

as far as i can remember Mick the Pr said that Irwin had to prove himself - imagine Irwin having to do that!!!!! Thats why he wasnt to bothered afterwards playing for Maccarthy
Short end of careers to Irwin, Aldo, Mcgrath and Keane tx to Mick

Again that's not what actually happened, he brought Irwin on and told him to 'prove me wrong' for leaving him out. A bit of a tactless effort at a gee up maybe but totally different from telling him to prove himself.

More spin from the Man U anti MM mafia that story.

Keane's end is well documented already and Aldo and McGrath were well past their best, sometimes managers have to make harsh decision especially when it's with regard to old team mates that would have been friends. The fact that they'd have viewed McCarthy as a mate explains a degree of the biterness that Aldo and MCGarth felt when they were no longer needed. For the record I'd have brought Aldo on in that game referred to but he was well past his best at that stage.

Drumcondra 69er

09/04/2009, 10:43 AM

And yes i do remember cause a) I am a big McGrath fan and b) i cant get that terrible header out of my head!!!!!
Football can be funny like that - some of us can be cynical to the end and have very long memories, very long ones!:)

In fairness, it wasn't a great header but Roy Keane's missed penalty in that game was just as damaging if not more so and no one ever seems to remember that. It was immaterial anyway as we came 2nd in the group and never got close to challenging for first.

Superhoops

09/04/2009, 10:52 AM

......
Sheridan could have had more caps but he was one of the few that were in all of the 88, 90 and 94 squads (Thursday teaser, can anyone name the rest?)......

Packie Bonner
Kevin Moran
Paul McGrath
Ray Houghton
John Aldridge
Tony Cascarino
David Kelly

Drumcondra 69er

09/04/2009, 11:04 AM

Packie Bonner
Kevin Moran
Paul McGrath
Ray Houghton
John Aldridge
Tony Cascarino
David Kelly

Correct! It's usually Sheridan and Kelly that people struggle with to be honest.....

Superhoops

09/04/2009, 11:07 AM

Correct! It's usually Sheridan and Kelly that people struggle with to be honest.....

Its an old question. People also usually include Steve Staunton.

Drumcondra 69er

09/04/2009, 11:15 AM

Its an old question. People also usually include Steve Staunton.

It is, think I first heard it just under 15 years ago!

seanfhear

09/04/2009, 12:14 PM

Dave Langan but that was entirely through injuries.

bennocelt

09/04/2009, 1:27 PM

Again that's not what actually happened, he brought Irwin on and told him to 'prove me wrong' for leaving him out. A bit of a tactless effort at a gee up maybe but totally different from telling him to prove himself.

Keane's end is well documented already and Aldo and McGrath were well past their best, sometimes managers have to make harsh decision especially when it's with regard to old team mates that would have been friends. The fact that they'd have viewed McCarthy as a mate explains a degree of the biterness that Aldo and MCGarth felt when they were no longer needed. For the record I'd have brought Aldo on in that game referred to but he was well past his best at that stage.

yeah i understand all that - but sometimes you have to work with what you got - and if the choice is a very bad Harte and a knackered McGrath (who was still putting out the MOTM performances in the PL) i would go with McGrath. I think in Int football you should take every game as they come.
As for Aldo (correct me if Im wrong) but wasnt he still scoring the odd goal for tranmere - and again Lithuania 0 Ireland 0 in Lansdowne road

By the way what about Tommy Coyne - he actually went to the WC Cup and palyed against ItalY!!!!!!!!!!!! - or did i dream that?

Superhoops

09/04/2009, 1:43 PM

...By the way what about Tommy Coyne - he actually went to the WC Cup and palyed against ItalY!!!!!!!!!!!! - or did i dream that?

He did. He also played against Mexico and Holland in those finals.

Drumcondra 69er

09/04/2009, 1:47 PM

yeah i understand all that - but sometimes you have to work with what you got - and if the choice is a very bad Harte and a knackered McGrath (who was still putting out the MOTM performances in the PL) i would go with McGrath. I think in Int football you should take every game as they come.
As for Aldo (correct me if Im wrong) but wasnt he still scoring the odd goal for tranmere - and again Lithuania 0 Ireland 0 in Lansdowne road

By the way what about Tommy Coyne - he actually went to the WC Cup and palyed against ItalY!!!!!!!!!!!! - or did i dream that?

I know what you mean but sometimes you have to build for the future, had we qualified for WC 98 it's unlikely McGarth would have been fit so the logic would have been to try and blood a sucessor. Harte wasn't that bad at that stage as is being made out, naive and inexperienced yes but he was doing alright when given a chance a Leeds and was up to the level of making the PFA team of the year a couple of years later (albeit at full back). Centre half was a problem position for us at the time, all our big hitters in that position had grown old together (McGrath, Moran, O'Leary and McCarthy himself) and bar Babb no one was really coming through (see Kerneghan's caps total for proof). You could argue that a group in which we weren't looking like getting close to winning but had 2nd pretty much nailed on would be the ideal time to blood younger players.

And as I said I agree about Aldo and would have put him on myself. I also think McCarthy made a number of errors in that campaign due to his own inexperience. That said, we still finished as high as we ever had before or have since in a qualifying group bar Euro 88.

Dunno what relevance Tommy Coyne has to this discussion btw....

bennocelt

09/04/2009, 2:10 PM

I know what you mean but sometimes you have to build for the future, had we qualified for WC 98 it's unlikely McGarth would have been fit so the logic would have been to try and blood a sucessor. Harte wasn't that bad at that stage as is being made out, naive and inexperienced yes but he was doing alright when given a chance a Leeds and was up to the level of making the PFA team of the year a couple of years later (albeit at full back). Centre half was a problem position for us at the time, all our big hitters in that position had grown old together (McGrath, Moran, O'Leary and McCarthy himself) and bar Babb no one was really coming through (see Kerneghan's caps total for proof). You could argue that a group in which we weren't looking like getting close to winning but had 2nd pretty much nailed on would be the ideal time to blood younger players.

Dunno what relevance Tommy Coyne has to this discussion btw....

Tommy Coyne re title of thread!

yeah Harte was decent but no as CB - two costly errors = two goals in vital games

tetsujin1979

09/04/2009, 2:23 PM

By the way what about Tommy Coyne - he actually went to the WC Cup and palyed against ItalY!!!!!!!!!!!! - or did i dream that?
He scored against the Dutch in one of the pre world cup games, no one was complaining then!

Denis The Red

10/04/2009, 11:42 PM