New Faces for RTE Panel?

[tetsujin1979]

He had dubvious off field activities. But would you rather have Jewell or Venables?

I am not saying Venables was the best manager for the job. But his record was miles ahead of Jewell's.

Would you pick a rubbish manager just because they were of perfect character?
Venables hasn't done anything of note in management since Euro '96, and even that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[Emmet7]

Venables hasn't done anything of note in management since Euro '96, and even that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

He beat a top notch Holland team (Van Der Saar, Cluivarts, and a host of other Dutch legends) 4 - 1. He beat a good Scotland team. England reached the semis where they were unlucky to lose to the Germans.

He lead Barcelona to a European Cup final, losing it on penalties.

He hasn't done much because he was in semi retirement.

What has Jewell done?

I'd have Venables over Jewell any day.

[Drumcondra 69er]

He beat a top notch Holland team (Van Der Saar, Cluivarts, and a host of other Dutch legends) 4 - 1. He beat a good Scotland team. England reached the semis where they were unlucky to lose to the Germans.

He lead Barcelona to a European Cup final, losing it on penalties.

He hasn't done much because he was in semi retirement.

What has Jewell done?

I'd have Venables over Jewell any day.

In Euro 96 he was blessed to get a draw against the Swiss and outclassed by Spain who had 2 perfectly good goals ruled out. They were poor against Scotland as well. That dutch side was self destructing at the time, the camp had totally split. He got to the European Cup final the first year after Hysel when the most dominant league in Europe had been excluded. By the time he left Barca they were being knocked out of Europe by Dundee United. He utterly destroyed Leeds having inherited a side that had been 4th, 3rd, 4th and 5th the previous 4 seasons. The only players he'd lost were Ferdinand (Woodgate came back to replace him) and Keane who was sold so he could free up wages for Nick Barmby ffs. They were facing relegation when he was sacked and have never recovered. He's a chancer and a spoofer who's reputation was built by friendly journalists more so then achievements.

Check the Venables thread from a few years ago, there's a very good piece that pretty much debunks the Venables myth in it.

[Emmet7]

In Euro 96 he was blessed to get a draw against the Swiss and outclassed by Spain who had 2 perfectly good goals ruled out. They were poor against Scotland as well. That dutch side was self destructing at the time, the camp had totally split. He got to the European Cup final the first year after Hysel when the most dominant league in Europe had been excluded. By the time he left Barca they were being knocked out of Europe by Dundee United. He utterly destroyed Leeds having inherited a side that had been 4th, 3rd, 4th and 5th the previous 4 seasons. The only players he'd lost were Ferdinand (Woodgate came back to replace him) and Keane who was sold so he could free up wages for Nick Barmby ffs. They were facing relegation when he was sacked and have never recovered. He's a chancer and a spoofer who's reputation was built by friendly journalists more so then achievements.

Check the Venables thread from a few years ago, there's a very good piece that pretty much debunks the Venables myth in it.

And getting a second division side to the FA cup final, a 3rd division side to the old 1st division and QPR to 5th in the league.

When he left Crystal Palace half way through a season, they were sitting mid table and safe. The got relegated at the end of the season.

When he joined Middlesborough to help out Brian Robson, they were scraping the foot of the table and seemed certain to be relegated. Boro finished the season a comfortable 14th, thanks largely to Venables.

He left Leeds because the transfer policy was largely out of his hands and players were being sold without his knowledge and others were rumoured to be sold. No manager can succeed in that situation.

Has Jewell done anything comparable to that? Apart from getting sacked from Derby!

[Drumcondra 69er]

Apparently Tony Cascarino said similar about Dunphy in an interview yesterday too :D

Cas called him an idiot on The Last Word.

[Drumcondra 69er]

And getting a second division side to the FA cup final, a 3rd division side to the old 1st division and QPR to 5th in the league.

Has Jewell done anything comparable to that? Apart from getting sacked from Derby!

He took Wigan to teh premier league which I'd say is up there with any promotion that Venables recieved. Lawrie McMenemy took a 2nd division side to the Cup Final and actually won it which is more then Terry V managed. I still wouldn't want him in charge of Ireland.

[Emmet7]

He took Wigan to teh premier league which I'd say is up there with any promotion that Venables recieved. Lawrie McMenemy took a 2nd division side to the Cup Final and actually won it which is more then Terry V managed. I still wouldn't want him in charge of Ireland.

One promotion and mid and lower table mediocrity thereafter. Hardly a top manager.

[Drumcondra 69er]

And getting a second division side to the FA cup final, a 3rd division side to the old 1st division and QPR to 5th in the league.

When he left Crystal Palace half way through a season, they were sitting mid table and safe. The got relegated at the end of the season.

When he joined Middlesborough to help out Brian Robson, they were scraping the foot of the table and seemed certain to be relegated. Boro finished the season a comfortable 14th, thanks largely to Venables.

He left Leeds because the transfer policy was largely out of his hands and players were being sold without his knowledge and others were rumoured to be sold. No manager can succeed in that situation.

Has Jewell done anything comparable to that? Apart from getting sacked from Derby!

He was sacked by Leeds. One player was sold over his head in Woodgate, the fact that the players couldn't make any sense of his tactics was the big factor there.

I'll re post the below, says it all for me.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Hell Tell
CRYSTAL PALACE 1976-80

Promoted from his coaching role at Crystal Palace in 1976, Terence
Frederick Venables took managerial charge from Malcolm Allison and
saw his Eagles soar from Third Division to First in three dizzy
seasons. With success built on Allison's brave youth policy, sages
such as Jeff Powell dubbed Palace the 'Team of the Eighties'.

But Jeff and his mates were too easily pleased, frankly, for
although Palace topped the First Division the following season, the
leaves were not yet off the trees, and by the season's end,
mid-table obscurity was the best Venables could muster. With that, a
younger, leaner, less tikka-tinged El Tel took his sheepskin coat
and burgeoning reputation off to west London, leaving Palace in
disarray.

QPR 1980-84

As Palace slipped back down to the Second, Tel kept himself buoyant
by winning promotion to the First Division (after three seasons) and
taking the Rs to the 1982 FA Cup final (one of the most intensely
irritating of all time; 210 minutes of abject tedium with Glenn
Hoddle emerging as the hero).


Taking a small club up - and to Wembley - put him right up there
with greats of the game like Graham Taylor (although unlike Watford,
QPR never became league runners-up under Tel's tutelage). In fact,
you can't even compare Tel's achievements at this level to those of
Southampton's Lawrie McMenemy, who not only matched Taylor's
achievements but won the Cup as well.


Can't compare to Lawrie McMenemy: now there's a damning phrase if
ever there was one.

BARCELONA 1984-87

Tel's amazing feats in west London caught the attention of Barcelona
president Josep Lluis Nunez, who was in no way looking for a cheap
option to replace Cesar Luis Menotti. On the face of it, Tel did
reasonably well: his team won a weak Spanish league in his first
season, and made the last two of a ****-poor post-Heysel European
Cup field in his second.

But his decision-making was more often than not found wanting. He
chose to sign Steve Archibald ahead of Hugo Sanchez, a man who would
later become a La Liga legend at Real Madrid. He played a patently
unfit Archibald in Barca's abject European Cup final defeat at the
hands of Steaua Bucharest. And he didn't listen to his staff when
they pleaded with him to rebuild his humiliated team around the
sublime skills of Ruud Gullit and Marco van Basten, choosing instead
to sign Gary Lineker (poach!) and Mark Hughes (hoof!).

By the end of Tel's reign, Barca were being trashed out of sight
home and away by Dundee United, while Milan's Dutch contingent were
about to swagger all over Europe. A great continental manager
indeed.
TOTTENHAM 1987-91

Let's put aside the 1991 FA Cup. For a start, Forest should have
walked the final; and in any case, Tottenham's whole run was down to
the supernatural feats of one rotund Geordie (and one hell of a
lucky draw).

The rest of it? Well, there's all that faffing around in the world
of business. And boy, could Tel faff. If he wasn't trying to wedge
his chubby legs and feet under the White Hart Lane boardroom table,
he was spending increasing amounts of time looking after his
nightclub investments. And singing bad songs. While being discussed
in depth on Panorama.

It all came to a head when Alan Sugar tired of Tel's meddling and
ousted him - but let's not use that to deflect attention from his
on-the-pitch record. Venables was never able to compensate for the
loss of key players. Gazza, Chris Waddle, Richard Gough and Neil
Ruddock were replaced with sub-standard fare, so Spurs under
Venables drifted aimlessly in mid-table. The excuse was, of course,
that he had no money to spend. One question: isn't this guy supposed
to be England's best coach?

ENGLAND 1994-96

During the first two years of Tel's stewardship, England played some
of the most mind-numbing football of all time. Friendlies against
Denmark, Nigeria, Romania, Norway, Uruguay, Sweden, Colombia,
Bulgaria, Croa... you've slipped into a light coma, haven't you?

England's Euro 96 team was not a good one. The hosts could only
honestly claim to have bettered Holland, a team rife with internal
racial conflict. An unlucky Scotland were only undone by a moment of
genius, as Paul Gascoigne turned up to salvage Tel's reputation once
again; the Swiss and Spanish both deserved to win.

England then played above themselves in their final game before
going out bravely. This makes Tel nothing special; they always do
this. Although interestingly, the only England manager in recent
times NOT to preside over a brave departure from a major
championship is Sven-Goran Eriksson, another man with a reputation
disproportionate to his ... ah, but that's another story.

PORTSMOUTH 1996-97

Brought in as a consultant to revive ailing Portsmouth in August
1996, Venables treated himself to a 51% stake in the club for a
solitary pound and took the chairman's reigns. All the while
attempting to steer Australia to the 1998 World Cup finals in a
part-time managerial role.

After less than a year at the club, having struggled to attract the
investment he hoped for to Fratton Park, El Tel walked away, after a
bitter wrangle, with around £250,000 for his shareholding. He'd
reportedly been holding out for £500,000, with Pompey bottom of the
First Division and losing £150,000 a month.

Before the compromise was reached, Portsmouth's ever-unpopular
former chairman Martin Gregory summed it up best: "The time is right
for Venables to go. He should walk away. I realise I am not the most
popular person in Portsmouth but things were never this bad."

AUSTRALIA 1996-97

Prior to their elimination from the 2002 World Cup, Terry Venables
was responsible for the darkest hour in Australia's football
history. Granted, that's really not saying very much, and from a
Pom's point of view, is really no bad thing either.

But having won their first 12 games with Venables as manager, the
Socceroos ripped through their Oceana group and into a two-leg
play-off with mighty Iran. The Aussies, boasting a team stuffed with
European-based players, looked to be heading to their first World
Cup since 1974, particularly after a 1-1 draw in Tehran. And you'd
have bet your fancy west-end nightspot on them heading to France
when they found themselves two goals up with just 10 minutes of the
decider remaining.

But if you had, you'd be in the market for a new nightspot, as two
late Iran strikes saw them through on away goals. To this very day,
El Tel struggles to explain what went wrong.

CRYSTAL PALACE 1998-99

Never go back, they say, and on this occasion, they were spot on.
Perhaps Venables thought he had unfinished business at Palace. Then
again, call us cynical, but maybe he had another less romantic
incentive for returning. Perhaps it was the £750,000 net contract he
was given, more than Alex Ferguson or Arsene Wenger were earning at
that time. No wonder Venables crowed: "Palace was my first club as
manager and now I think it could be my last."

But by the time of his first Palace game - an InterToto Cup match
against Samsunspor - El Tel was elsewhere, having taken the evening
off, claiming to be worn out from his television work during the
World Cup. Trouble was clearly brewing, and within six months, after
having voiced concerns that insufficient funds were being made
available (and with a reported clause in his contract, giving him 2%
of every transfer sale), Venables had stepped down to become a
"consultant".

It was only fair that he left with another sizeable pay-off. It's
difficult to imagine a more sorry episode than Venables' Portsmouth
affair, but this was it.

MIDDLESBROUGH 2000-01

With the good ship Middlesbrough heading for the rocks with Bryan
Robson at the wheel, Boro chairman and bankroller Steve Gibson came
over all sweaty at the prospect of slipping out of the Premiership
and losing several million pounds in the process.

Sensing the importance of tactics in the modern game, Gibson asked
Venables to help out alongside Robson, a variation on their England
partnership of the mid-1990s. In truth, it was Venables who called
the shots, and steered Boro to eight wins in 25 matches and clear of
relegation. He became a saviour on Teeside, though in effect, all
he'd really proved was that he was a better manager than Bryan
Robson - a trick even Phil Neal may have pulled off.

Having proved to his doubters that he'd not lost the old magic, Tel
declined a full-time contract at Boro for the comfort of a seat next
to Des Lynam.

LEEDS 2002-03

Took a top 5 squad in to relegation trouble by Christmas playing
Harry Kewell as an out and out striker, Mark Viduka in the hole,
Erik Bakke as a holding midfielder while ignoring David Batty and
driving Ollie Dacourt to Italy. Sold Robbie Keane to make way for
Nick Barmby. Bought Paul Okon.

Just like at Palace three years' earlier, Tel missed his first game
in charge of Leeds. What was the problem? He was filming for the
BBC's Holiday programme. Some things never change

[youngirish]

And getting a second division side to the FA cup final, a 3rd division side to the old 1st division and QPR to 5th in the league.

When he left Crystal Palace half way through a season, they were sitting mid table and safe. The got relegated at the end of the season.

When he joined Middlesborough to help out Brian Robson, they were scraping the foot of the table and seemed certain to be relegated. Boro finished the season a comfortable 14th, thanks largely to Venables.

He left Leeds because the transfer policy was largely out of his hands and players were being sold without his knowledge and others were rumoured to be sold. No manager can succeed in that situation.

Has Jewell done anything comparable to that? Apart from getting sacked from Derby!


Yeah he got both Wigan and Bradford promoted from the lower divisions of the football league to The Premiership and established Wigan in particular as a decent Premiership club which is far harder to do today considering the ever widening gulf between the bigger and smaller clubs than it was when Venables last did anything in club management over 2 decades ago.

If you'd rather Venables than Jewell thank God you weren't picking the Ireland manager. You also forget to mention he did a sh*t job managing Australia and he also displays a worryingly regular pattern of fleecing as much money as possible from his employer before doing a runner just prior to getting sacked. He was also sh*t at Middlesborough and Leeds, as bad as, if not considerably worse than their previous managers who he replaced but hey why let a few facts get in the way of a good rant.

Are you him or John Delaney btw?

[tetsujin1979]

He beat a top notch Holland team (Van Der Saar, Cluivarts, and a host of other Dutch legends) 4 - 1.That Dutch side also contained the legends Winston Bogarde, Peter Hoekstra and Jordi Cryuff. They drew 0-0 with Scotland in their opener. Read this alternative review of the 4-1 win: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/feb/15/1

He beat a good Scotland team.The Scots were a declining side at the time and have only qualified for one tournament since then
Also, he drew 0-0 with the Swiss in the opening game at Wembley

England reached the semis where they were unlucky to lose to the Germans.
Spain had two goals disallowed against England, and 2 fairly decent claims for a penalty, in the quarter finals before losing to England on penalties


He lead Barcelona to a European Cup final, losing it on penalties.In 1986. Which was before Euro '96. Which is my point


He hasn't done much because he was in semi retirement.It's not retirement when noone will hire you!
According to Venables' entry on Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Venables - his record since Euro '96 includes
Losing to Iran in a World Cup play off
Almost bankrupting Portsmouth FC
Almost driving Crystal Palace out of business
Narrowly avoiding relegation with Middlesbrough (and then leaving Boro)
Being replaced by Peter Reid at Leeds, 9 months into the job. Reid would go on to keep the same team up, after taking over in the relegation places
Steve McClaren is widely regarded as the worst England manager ever. Venables was his assistant. While McClaren stood at the side of the pitch watching Croatia tear his side apart, where was this great leader of men? Laughing it up in the Royal Box.
And of course, let's not forget he was banned from being on the board of directors of any company for seven years for mismanaging no less than four different companies

What has Jewell done?According to Jewell's wikipedia entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jewell - he brought Bradford City back to the top flight for the first time in 77 years
Kept them up on the last day by beating Liverpool
Being sacked by Sheffield Wednesday (I'll leave this to Owlsfan to fill out)
Getting Wigan Athletic promoted from what is now League One to the Premiership in 3 seasons
Keeping Wigan in the Premiership
Being sacked by Derby

I'd have Venables over Jewell any day.IMO Jewell did more with less resources than Venables and in far more recent times. His record isn't perfect, but I'd have taken him over Venables in a heartbeat. There's a decent chance I'd never darken the doorstep of an Ireland game again with Venables in charge

[youngirish]

One promotion and mid and lower table mediocrity thereafter. Hardly a top manager.

Jewell has achieved 3 promotions with 2 different clubs as I alluded to above.

[tetsujin1979]

When he left Crystal Palace half way through a season, they were sitting mid table and safe. The got relegated at the end of the season.
Wrong. They were relegated in at the end of the 98/99 season, with Atillio Lombardo and Thomas Brolin at the helm, and Venables was appointed soon after. Despite being in Division One (now the Championship) he was being paid more than Ferguson and Wenger at the time. Hard to blame him for accepting the money, but he refused to take a pay cut, or defer payment of wages and the club went into administration. He left soon after, and was still being paid after he left. Steve Coppell took over and the club finished in mid table.
Of the 31 games he was in charge of, they won only 11, slightly better than a third

[geysir]

Regardless of who became our manager and regardless of how enthusiastically that appointment would have been applauded by Dunphy, he would still act the rat on the first possible opportunity on some peripheral argument. Usually it is the same argument, the missing player, the one who would transform the team into world cup winners, if only the manager .......

[Scram]

HOW ABOUT THIS:

http://www.culch.ie/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/bren.jpg

You'd soon be beggin' to brink back the Dunphy Langer ! :D

[Reality Bites]

HOW ABOUT THIS:

http://www.culch.ie/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/bren.jpg

You'd soon be beggin' to brink back the Dunphy Langer ! :D

Big Time BOC a ******** of unparalleled proportions- well maybe Barry Egans a close second...

[Emmet7]

Yeah he got both Wigan and Bradford promoted from the lower divisions of the football league to The Premiership and established Wigan in particular as a decent Premiership club which is far harder to do today considering the ever widening gulf between the bigger and smaller clubs than it was when Venables last did anything in club management over 2 decades ago.

If you'd rather Venables than Jewell thank God you weren't picking the Ireland manager. You also forget to mention he did a sh*t job managing Australia and he also displays a worryingly regular pattern of fleecing as much money as possible from his employer before doing a runner just prior to getting sacked. He was also sh*t at Middlesborough and Leeds, as bad as, if not considerably worse than their previous managers who he replaced but hey why let a few facts get in the way of a good rant.

Are you him or John Delaney btw?

Boro under Robbo were heading straight for the relegation trap door, if anyone remembers that season. Venables came in and immediately results improved vastly. Ah but no credit to Venables right.

Ferdinand and Keane were sold by Leeds over his head. Several other players were on the way out. The club was massively in debt. He couldn't buy new players. There is no way he wanted Ferdinand sold.

In the end he was sacked because both his hands were tied behind his back because of transfer policy and debts. Leeds was a basketcase at the time. Where are they now? League 1.

He wasn't even manager of Boro. Do you know anything about Venables or are you just spoofing?

[Emmet7]

Wrong. They were relegated in at the end of the 98/99 season, with Atillio Lombardo and Thomas Brolin at the helm, and Venables was appointed soon after. Despite being in Division One (now the Championship) he was being paid more than Ferguson and Wenger at the time. Hard to blame him for accepting the money, but he refused to take a pay cut, or defer payment of wages and the club went into administration. He left soon after, and was still being paid after he left. Steve Coppell took over and the club finished in mid table.
Of the 31 games he was in charge of, they won only 11, slightly better than a third

I am talking about his first stint in charge in the 70's. Did you even know he was manager back then?

This is all getting off topic..

New members for the panel? Someone, anyone...anyone who can analyse a game accurately and without an axe to grind.

[tetsujin1979]

I am talking about his first stint in charge in the 70's. Did you even know he was manager back then?

Of course I did, I reviewed his wikipedia profile didn't I?
what part of "since Euro '96" did you not understand?

[Drumcondra 69er]

Ferdinand and Keane were sold by Leeds over his head. Several other players were on the way out. The club was massively in debt. He couldn't buy new players. There is no way he wanted Ferdinand sold.

In the end he was sacked because both his hands were tied behind his back because of transfer policy and debts. Leeds was a basketcase at the time. Where are they now? League 1.



The club debts started getting called in because rather then looking at Champions League qualification they were looking at relegation after he'd been in charge a matter of months, that was when things went tits up. You think the creditors would have been knocking had they been top of the table?

Ferdinand was sold because he wanted to go having been tapped up at the World Cup that summer by the Man u players in the England squad. I'm sure he'd have prefered to keep him but there was a ready made replacement there with Woodgate coming back in any case. Venables let Keane go because he'd just bought Nick Barmby and put him on a huge contract, it was Venables who reckoned Harry Kewell was a centre forward and all which he used to justify not playing Keane at the start of that season.

If Venables was such a good manager then how did he have a team (less the two players mentioned) that had been top 5 the previous 4 years (top 4 for 3 of those years) in a relegation battle? He did untold damage there in his stint, no two ways about it.

[seanfhear]

Venables may have had the ability to be a good manager at club level but he was a crook.
I know a lifelong Crystal palace fan and he told me that Venables was not signing players for the good of the club but for the backhanders he was getting out of it. He was also paying over the odds for these players for the same reason.

Perhaps if he put the effort (???) in he might have been a good international manager.
There would not be the opportunity to make extra funds from transfers of players.
Maybe he would have concentrated on coaching but i believe he would always on the look out for the opportunity to increase his income by any means possible.

[Brendan 82]

Dunphy would find something wrong if we beat Italy 10-0. He'll find something wrong if we qualify. He'll find something wrong if we make it through the groups. He'd find something wrong if we made it to the final. He'd find something wrong if we won the damn thing.

Then he'd sugar coat the situation in 20 years time, like how the team we had in 1990 was "the best in the world" in his opinion.

I truly despise the man

[Emmet7]

A lot of managers are at the backhanders lark and a lot in the past were at it including managers who won the league. George Graham and I think Brian Clough.

It's harder to do it obviously as an international manager. You cannot buy or sell players.

I agree his financial dealings were usually dodgy. But as an international manager there is no transfer policy to manipulate.

[Stuttgart88]

Emmet, it may be worth your while going back to the anti-Venables threads here after Stan was sacked. Plenty of objective criticism of his so-called football successes before his character was even taken into account. I'm too tired of that argument to go over it all again. I'm sure D69er is too.

New faces for the panel?

I'd keep Souness and Giles. Add Mick McCarthy. Kenny Cunningham. Owen Coyle.

Is Pat Walker telegenic?

I'd have one of those female Italian football presenters as host.

[John83]

I'd have one of those female Italian football presenters as host.
Temptation to post pictures of Ilaria D'Amico on Totty Watch rising...

Her wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilaria_D%27Amico) has a link to a bikini gallery for the love of God.

[stiffler]

What about John Sheridan/ John Aldridge?

[OwlsFan]

Dunphy would find something wrong if we beat Italy 10-0. He'll find something wrong if we qualify. He'll find something wrong if we make it through the groups. He'd find something wrong if we made it to the final. He'd find something wrong if we won the damn thing.

Then he'd sugar coat the situation in 20 years time, like how the team we had in 1990 was "the best in the world" in his opinion.

I truly despise the man

I am not alone! I am not alone!

As for Jewell, here's his record:

Apart from being brutal at Wednesday, his overall managerial record on games won/lost etc isn't fantastic. Very good at Wigan, average at Bradford and poor at Wednesday.


.................................................. ......G... W. L ..D Win %
Bradford City....................................117.. 46 45 26 39.31
Sheffield Wednesday...........................38. .12 21.. 5 31.57
Wigan Athletic..................................291.127 90. 74 43.64
__________________

For Derby, he led them to relegation from the Premiership (although they were in a poor position when he took over) and was looking at a further relegation from the Championship until he was sacked. No one else has hired him since his sacking (now a pundit on Sky, the job of most failed managers) which tells its own story.

I know I am slightly biased because of his failure with Wednesday but at the two reasonably sized clubs he's been at, he failed miserably.

Trappatoni vs Jewell: no contest but of course the poison dwarf knows better.

[SkStu]

What about John Sheridan/ John Aldridge?

just checked. No link to a bikini gallery in either... :(

[youngirish]

He wasn't even manager of Boro. Do you know anything about Venables or are you just spoofing?
I'm afraid he was manager of Boro. He managed the team in a joint capacity with Robson. Just because his business cards listed his job title as Director of Football or some other such nonsense doesn't hide this fact. Look it up.

[stojkovic]

Another classic Trap game was the 1985 European Cup Final. Liverpool dominating the game, all over Juventus, the Italians soaking up the pressue and then one long ball latched onto by Platini who races through and is fouled and converts the penalty. Game over, the greatest English team of the century taken apart in seconds.

It was Boniek actually. Taken down by Gillespie who had replaced the injured Lawrenson.

[Emmet7]

I'm afraid he was manager of Boro. He managed the team in a joint capacity with Robson. Just because his business cards listed his job title as Director of Football or some other such nonsense doesn't hide this fact. Look it up.

I have already made the point it was Venables managing the team in all but name. That's the reason they stayed up. Before he arrived they were heading for relegation. I'm not disputing that once he arrived he was the main man managing first team affairs.

The fact he saved them from relegation is another positive for him, not a negative.

I just think some of the arguments put forward by people, that he was a crook and all that, is dumb.

Give me a crook who has experience, can manage and get good results any day over someone with perfect financial dealings but is a poor manager. Anyone would think he would steal all the FAI money. If he writes a newspaper column, who gives a sh*t? Clough and several managers wrote newspaper columns.

No manager is perfect in character. Brian Clough is an example of that. There are litterly tons of managers who have had fingers in several pies, including managers today. Remember the Panorama expose a couple years ago pointing fingers at Allardyce and a couple other managers?

[Emmet7]

It was Boniek actually. Taken down by Gillespie who had replaced the injured Lawrenson.

You are right, fair play. It's all a distant memory now.

[Emmet7]

It's worth watching this again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g7z70keOQw

Plenty of generalisations from the Irish experts.

Souness was spot on in what he said. He said he doubted very much Trap would play open expansive football and if fans were looking for that they would be dissapointed, but he was a winner. Demonstrates Souness does actually know what he is talking about.

Dunphy only knew Trap had won a lot of things. He didn't know what his tactics were.

Giles also says it's impossible to improve the players' skills in the couple of days Trap has the players. He can only work on a system.

[tetsujin1979]

Give me a crook who has experience, can manage and get good results any day over someone with perfect financial dealings but is a poor manager.
Hasn't the thread proven that, other than proving himself to be a better manager than Bryan Robson, Venables hasn't gotten any result in more than 10 years?

[Emmet7]

Hasn't the thread proven that, other than proving himself to be a better manager than Bryan Robson, Venables hasn't gotten any result in more than 10 years?

Boro were in a similar position to Derby when Jewell took over at Derby. Derby went down, Boro stayed up.

At the end of the day he (Jewell) was sacked from a Championship side after a disastrous run of results. We were lucky not to get him.

Every competant international side these days have managers of vast experience.

If Ireland were to meet Russia in the play offs, and Russia have Gus Hiddick on the side line, who would you rather have on our side, Paul Jewell or someone with experience of international and top level European management such as Venables.

I know who I'd prefer.

Appointing Jewell would be a gamble like appointing Kerr and Stauntan was. Another manager with no experience of managing internationally or of top players against top opposition. Serious football people like me know that.

[tetsujin1979]

Boro were in a similar position to Derby when Jewell took over at Derby. Derby went down, Boro stayed up.That Boro squad contained recognised internationals in Ugo Ehiogu, Alan Boksic and Christian Karembeu. Derby's squad had Darren Moore and Robbie Earnshaw. Alex Ferguson could have taken over with Mourinho as his assistant and the chances are they still would have gotten relegated. If anything, it's an even more damning indictment of Robson's inability to put together a functioning XI from that squad.


At the end of the day he was sacked from a Championship side. We were lucky not to get him.Possibly not, but I'd still have had him over Venables.


Every competant international side these days have managers of vast experience.Brazil would probably be the exception, but fair enough.


If Ireland were to meet Russia in the play offs, and Russia have Gus Hiddick on the side line, who would you rather have on our side, Paul Jewell or someone with experience of international and top level European management such as Venables.

I know who I'd prefer.

Appointing Jewell would be a gamble like appointing Kerr and Stauntan was. Another manager with no experience of managing internationally or of top players against top opposition.The obvious question then is - why would appointing Venables not be a gamble?

[Emmet7]

That Boro squad contained recognised internationals in Ugo Ehiogu, Alan Boksic and Christian Karembeu. Derby's squad had Darren Moore and Robbie Earnshaw. Alex Ferguson could have taken over with Mourinho as his assistant and the chances are they still would have gotten relegated. If anything, it's an even more damning indictment of Robson's inability to put together a functioning XI from that squad.

Possibly not, but I'd still have had him over Venables.

Brazil would probably be the exception, but fair enough.

The obvious question then is - why would appointing Venables not be a gamble?

It would be less of a gamble. It's a job after all and you look for the guy who is most qualified with the most experience. That gives us the best chance of success.

I'm the sort who thinks that managers generally aren't geniuses or brillant. They learn from their mistakes and they get better. Top managers become top managers after making a lot of mistakes but in the end they get it right.

Even Trap is still learning as he goes along. A lot of players he started the campaign with have been replaced and a settled team, his best team, is now taking shape.

[Drumcondra 69er]

It would be less of a gamble. It's a job after all and you look for the guy who is most qualified with the most experience. That gives us the best chance of success.

I'm the sort who thinks that managers generally aren't geniuses or brillant. They learn from their mistakes and they get better. Top managers become top managers after making a lot of mistakes but in the end they get it right.

Even Trap is still learning as he goes along. A lot of players he started the campaign with have been replaced and a settled team, his best team, is now taking shape.

Rubbish. Some get better and some don't. George Graham didn't over the last years of his management career. Neither did Howard Wilkinson who remains the last Englishman to win the top flight (a year after Venables last trophy by the way). Nor did Kenny Daglish. And nor did Terry Venables. Sometimes the game moves on and leaves people behind.

As for your 'serious football people like me' remark....:rolleyes::rolleyes: You must be on a wind up with a comment like that.

[irishfan86]

I think a big factor in managers "getting better" or not had to do with the culture change that occurred in England starting in the mid-to-late nineties, as science started to play a bigger role.

Diets, proper fitness regimes, and paying attention to the details started to give teams an edge against teams of the "old school."

In contrast, a lot of this scientific (and common sense) stuff has been commonplace in Europe for decades, albeit at a lower level of complexity.

But simple stuff like going to bed early, eating properly, and abstaining from alcohol ahead of key matches has always been part of the footballing culture in places like Italy.

This is why Trap has been able to be so successful for so long. In contrast you see some British managers who failed to embrace this new way of doing things, and they faded as a result.

[Emmet7]

Absolutely. A culture Trap is trying to instill to the Irish setup.

He is trying to bring the utmost professionalism to the Irish Team setup. That means not staying out late, not staying up drinking, eating the right food and respecting the manager and the team.

Of course you will have one or two players who cannot cope with that. But that's their problem not the manager.

Do we want to go back to a culture where the players stay out all night drinking with the press? Eating rubbish food, tired during games as they clearly were against Cyprus in the 5 - 2 defeat.

Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

[backstothewall]

New faces for the panel?

I'd keep Souness and Giles. Add Mick McCarthy. Kenny Cunningham. Owen Coyle.

Is Pat Walker telegenic?

I'd have one of those female Italian football presenters as host.

I'd actually like to keep Dunphy, though the panel is getting old.

I would let Bill and Gils have more time in their slippers. Bring in Colin Murray as anchor, and have a 2 man panel, Souness and Dunphy. I get the feeling Souness would love to tell dunphy what utter ****e he talks, but is outnumbered by Dunphy and Giles. Reduce it to 2 experts, and let the 2 of them go at it.

[Emmet7]

Agreed. Souness was quite outspoken when he first joined, probably because he didn't know the score with the RTE pundits union. He was confrontational and challenged Dunphy's and Giles' opinions such as with the Wenger transfer money.

But lately, its a case of take your salary and agree with whatever the lads say. A pity really. Although I do think he disagrees with the lads every now and again but he has to agree with them a fair bit first before he is allowed off the leash.

I do agree it's 2 against 1. It's been that way for the last 20 years. There is little balance in most discussions.

[OwlsFan]

Agreed. Souness was quite outspoken when he first joined, probably because he didn't know the score with the RTE pundits union. He was confrontational and challenged Dunphy's and Giles' opinions such as with the Wenger transfer money.

But lately, its a case of take your salary and agree with whatever the lads say. A pity really. Although I do think he disagrees with the lads every now and again but he has to agree with them a fair bit first before he is allowed off the leash.

I do agree it's 2 against 1. It's been that way for the last 20 years. There is little balance in most discussions.


It's been 3-0 most of the time, particularly during the Charlton era when Laughing Bill was and still is in the anti-Charlton camp. Same for the Mick Mc era (Saipan aside which was trhe best as there were for the first time ever divergent views).

WHo cares what Dunphy says so long as there is someone who will disagree.

Mind you the SKy Panel is also now like a dog with a bone about zonal marking at corners. z-z-z-z-z-z.