One trick / on your bike Trap moanfest [Archive] - Page 4

cestlavie

30/03/2009, 7:08 PM

Cestlavie, you are absolutely correct it is healthy to have a debate. However when you start a thread titled "On your bike Trap and Co." immediately after just one bad result (even though at the start of qualifying we probably would have taken it) you should really expect to get hammered. This knee jerk reaction suggests you know very little about football. For example, it seems obvious you don't recall watching the dross served up by Jack Charlton's teams which we all loved and followed passionately because it was successful. Do you remember the game v's Egypt in 1990? Worst game of football ever played anywhere on this planet at any time in history!!! It felt like the end of the world but we still went on and made the 1/4 finals. Trap is by far and away the most experianced and qualified manager we have ever had, to be looking to sack him know is quite simply ridiculous. We are in 2nd spot in a group containing the world champions, did we ever expect to finish top?? We are in a very healthy position so relax, stop worrying about Reid and Ireland and get behind our team. That way when we qualify (Via the playoffs) you will not feel guilty about cheering them on in SA.

had great craic at the time, it was a new departure for us all, great times indeed but we were brutal. We got respect around the world for having great fans who enjoyed themselves and whom always turned up in great numbers no matter were the team played not because of the way we played. Things have moved on. There are other competing sports out their that many are turning too. As a country we all love football but we are a mad sports nation that will follow any Irish team but as we all know it many people will only support or latch onto the bandwagon if successful. The people who boo are the same people who do not support their local youth teams etc Armchair supporters who talk a good game over the barstool.

weldoninhio

30/03/2009, 7:16 PM

The bigger picture is in the table. In the last campaign, we had 10 points after 6 games with 8 goals conceded. This time, we have 11 points from 5 games with 3 goals conceded and are unbeaten.

If people can't see the progress in that, then they can't be helped. :(

Well, taking into account the odds are that we're likely to lose against Italy, this campaign under the Italian Master, The Great Infallable Trappaponi we have gained 1 point more than we did under The Gaffer at the half way stage!!!!

And if we can't see the progress in that we can't be helped???

tetsujin1979

30/03/2009, 7:32 PM

6 of those points were against San Marino, and we only gained 6 points in the final 5 games, from a possible 15.
Do you really see us doing worse in the final 5 games in these qualifiers?

SkStu

30/03/2009, 7:46 PM

6 of those points were against San Marino, and we only gained 6 points in the final 5 games, from a possible 15.
Do you really see us doing worse in the final 5 games in these qualifiers?

i admire your optimism Tets but its going to be a close call... here is my version of a realistic/slightly optimistic outcome:

Italy v Rep of Ireland - draw
Bulgaria v Rep of Ireland - defeat
Cyprus v Rep of Ireland - draw
Rep of Ireland v Italy - draw
Rep of Ireland v Montenegro - win

as i said, i think im being slightly optimistic there but thats 6 points. A win in Cyprus would change that obviously. We may finish second but i really dont know if we will get a playoff place....

weldoninhio

30/03/2009, 7:55 PM

6 of those points were against San Marino, and we only gained 6 points in the final 5 games, from a possible 15.
Do you really see us doing worse in the final 5 games in these qualifiers?

9 of the points we have gotten this campaign have been against Georgia 6pts (108 in the world rankings) and Montenegro 3 pts (113 in the world). With Italy, Bulgaria and Cyprus all away to come, as well as Italy at home i think its very optimistic to look forward and say we will get more than 6 points.

Fair enough we should beat Montenegro, but the rest will be very very tricky given that Italy are a top class team and our home "performances" against Bulgaria and Cyprus.

SilkCut

30/03/2009, 10:56 PM

The people who boo are the same people who do not support their local youth teams etc Armchair supporters who talk a good game over the barstool.

Eh so why are you so eager to disparage Trap and Co.?? Are you admitting to being an armchair fan?? Sorry if I have misunderstood your post.

SilkCut

31/03/2009, 1:09 AM

How he can still pick the likes of McShane and Bruce is beyond reasoning!

Serious question Doc, not having a go or anything but who do you suggest he pick instead?? Its not like we are spoilt for choice. St. Ledger? Not much better, Foley? still not much better. There are players for the future who I agree he needs to have a look at such as Coleman. That stuff is for friendlies though we need players who have been around a while for qualifiers. Before anyone says he doesn't pick untried players in friendlies, remember he picked Andrews against Poland. Trap is not infallible but Jesus its not Italy he is managing.

Stuttgart88

31/03/2009, 8:18 AM

Foley is 24. He'll be past it if we keep him on the bench much longer. Pooint taken on Andrews, and you can add that Gibson's selection was a bold move too. Keiran Westwood's inclusion is a good one (though how daniel O'Donnell can suggest Westwood be on the bench over Kiely would make any difference is beyond me).

I'd drop Whelan for tonight and play Gibson and Andrews together.

noddy102

31/03/2009, 8:48 AM

Foley should be playing full stop.
Regular at a Wolves team winning the Championship.
Has been tipped to be named Wolves' player of the season by fans. example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A49151270
Young and consistent player - better than Kelly and McShane.
The only reason Foley isn't playing is he hasn't been capped yet, which isn't an excuse really, but I suppose is if we argue he can't be expected to start against Bulgaria or Italy.

Jicked

31/03/2009, 9:03 AM

It's very easy to say Foley should be playing because he holds down a place with a side doing pretty well in the Championship. But again that's looking at things from afar, when you consider the fact that he's never played in a European or even Premier League game, and so has a handful of games against top quality attackers (in League and FA Cup action, I presume) the decision is less clear cut.

Plus, have you seen the bloody size of him?! He looks like he's about 12 years old. I'm not saying you can't be a good player despite at his size/build, but everyone knows that physicality has become a huge part of the game in recent years and it really isn't something you can ignore at the top level like international football.

Decisions like that are very easy to make from your computer keyboard, there are very few managers who would throw in a player who has never played against top quality opposition, and lacks the physicality for the position at the highest level in to the big stage just because Paul McShane is a bit dodgy as the second choice RB. Similar reasoning for not chucking in someone like Owen Garvan who cant get a game with Ipswich Town but some people on here think should be pulling the strings in the midfield. The only type of manager who would throw people in to games like that when they're clearly not ready is a certain Mr Staunton.

And for what its worth Trap has made big decisions like that where felt necessary in the past - Darron Gibson v. Cyprus, throwing in a whole load of such players in to the team is suicide - again, see our last campaign.

noddy102

31/03/2009, 9:07 AM

Physicality has become a big part of the game in recent years? What are you talking about!?! It has always been a big part of the game.
I can't recall McShane or Kelly playing much European football, and really both players have been tried and tested for both Ireland and in Premiership football, and at best they are relegation/lower mid-table standard.

Jicked

31/03/2009, 9:14 AM

Yes, almost all analysts of the game would agree that phsyicality is becoming a bigger influence as the top teams put more emphasis on size. That's a relatively universally accepted comment.

I'm not saying McShane/Kelly are anything more than what you've said, but experience is hugely, hugely crucial, and you have to respect the fact that McShane has faced up against some of the worlds greatest attackers, whilst Foley plays for a Championship side. No manager worth their salt would just write off a factor like that because they read on a Wolves forum that Foley's been playing well.

the doc

31/03/2009, 9:17 AM

Serious question Doc, not having a go or anything but who do you suggest he pick instead?? Its not like we are spoilt for choice. St. Ledger? Not much better, Foley? still not much better. There are players for the future who I agree he needs to have a look at such as Coleman. That stuff is for friendlies though we need players who have been around a while for qualifiers. Before anyone says he doesn't pick untried players in friendlies, remember he picked Andrews against Poland. Trap is not infallible but Jesus its not Italy he is managing.

I'd play Foley at RB, much better than McShane in all departments, as for St Ledger, I'd bring him into the squad ahead of Bruce and McShane, with a view to give him games in friendlies and time in competitive games as a long term replacement for O'Shea.

I don't agree with many on here that we lack quality, we have many players who will go onto and be a success in the Premiership, Foley and St Ledger are amongst those.

Stuttgart88

31/03/2009, 9:33 AM

With regard to size, I actually think size has become increasingly important over the last 7 or 8 years. I expect improved nutritional standards of the last generation across the eastern block may be the reason.

However, it was correctly pointed out that the Spanish team showed that technique can win out over size, especially in an environment where referees follow the continental doctrine. Players like Iniesta, Arshavin, Modric, our own Stephen Ireland even, show that technique and intelligence can win out.

Jicked, I think the main point was that McShane's limitations on the ball placed too much pressure on McGeady. Also, at no point was McShane able to develop play. Hence the ball kept coming back to us. I don't think this was a tactical failing of Trap's as such, just the pure limitations of the player. Foley, being a natural right back, could have been a better option against a team that we could have beaten if we'd used the ball better.

I think Ifk101's post on the other thread addressed this issue well though.

Jicked

31/03/2009, 9:42 AM

While I agree McShane probably isn't as comfortable on the ball in the RB position as Foley would be, and yes that could have impacted on McGeady's game, I wouldn't blame McShane for not developing the play. He was clearly under orders not to try to get involved and I agree with that. Kilbane and he were told to stay put, O'Shea and Dunne weren't to roam in to midfield, instead everyone just kept their discipline and positions. For me that paid off, we restricted Bulgaria to one good chance in the whole game, despite giving them most of the possession, and created more than enough chances to win the game ourselves (Keane, McGeady, Doyle and the goal itself).

If we have McShane and Kilbane contributing more going forward and developing the play we're going to leave ourselves exposed, and that simply didn't happen against Bulgaria despite their amount of possession. I think away from home the tactic will work a treat, especially in Sofia (you'd expect Italy to have too much for us tonight, whatever the tactics/formation) but would like the two in the middle to be able to put their foot on it a bit more. I thought the first 45 minutes in the friendly against Norway was superb, would love to see us recreate that style of play again, but it requires two bigger performances from our two in the middle.

Stuttgart88

31/03/2009, 10:00 AM

I thought the first 45 minutes in the friendly against Norway was superb, would love to see us recreate that style of play again, but it requires two bigger performances from our two in the middle.
Yep, best CM performance in years. We played most of the first half in their half, Norway couldn't keep the ball at all.

irishultra

31/03/2009, 10:32 AM

it was a such a joy to watch that day. we defended relatively high up the pitch and were content to just keep the ball moving. I thought it was a sign of things to come :(

cestlavie

31/03/2009, 1:08 PM

Even though I dont think Trap is a long term solution j(ust like Charlton when he stayed on far too long and we suffered for years as a result), I just like all the people on here would love it if we got a result against the Italians tomorrow, As a country we need a lift. I remember Ray Houghton's goal, what a night, it was a pity but that was as good as it got, that was Irelands world cup. Come on the boys in green.

Jicked

01/04/2009, 9:09 PM

One trick Trap?

Hat-trick of brilliant subsitutions and he outfoxes the World Champions and Marcello Lippi.

Unbeaten.

jebus

01/04/2009, 9:21 PM

where are all these muppets now? We outplayed Italy tonight, great substitutions by Trap and we should have won the game in the end

Maroon 7

01/04/2009, 9:23 PM

One trick Trap?

Hat-trick of brilliant subsitutions and he outfoxes the World Champions and Marcello Lippi.

Steady on now. They did have to play the entire game with 10 men.

Stuttgart88

01/04/2009, 9:23 PM

More than the 3 subs: JO'S moving to RB was a good move too. I thought Folan made a difference immediately. It made sense playing Robbie deeper, Doyle looked nacked, Gibson & Whelan between then got the bit between their teeth and N. Hunt looked like it was his 100th cap he was so unnerved. Fair play Trap, if not for your starting XI, but for the way you responded to the game's flow.

Now, can we play this way every game please?

SkStu

01/04/2009, 9:25 PM

to Jicked & Jebus - a few of my quotes from the game thread.

just want to say that if we can kick on, performance wise, from this and produce that sort of football on a regular basis then i will hold my hands up and admit that maybe i had Trap all wrong, something Dunphy will and would never do. He got his substitutions spot on and im glad he took Keogh off though i questioned it at the time.

i certainly dont feel like an eejit. I stand by my criticisms of Saturdays performance and i just cant believe we didnt kick on after the first goal. Tonight showed what we can do if we are allowed.

with due acknowledgement of the fact that we played 10 men for nearly 90 minutes.

Jicked

01/04/2009, 9:25 PM

Now, can we play this way every game please?

if we're chasing a game...sure. Otherwise I'd like to stick to grinding out results and protecting that dodgy back four as much as possible and hitting teams on the break.

Jicked

01/04/2009, 9:27 PM

to Jicked & Jebus - a few of my quotes from the game thread.

with due acknowledgement of the fact that we played 10 men for nearly 90 minutes.
Oh I'm not having a go at all, just standing up for Trap. I felt it was crazy to turn on the players/management/system after a game where we gave away one chance all game, and felt Trap vindicated that tonight.

Those saying he's past it or to old for it are the people I'd have a go at, tonight proved that is rubbish.

Norm

01/04/2009, 9:32 PM

where are all these muppets now? We outplayed Italy tonight, great substitutions by Trap and we should have won the game in the end

I agree and disagree at the same time.

We definately outplayed Italy, but I feel that was more a result of a very questionable sending off then anything Ireland had to offer.

We could have won, but even against 10 men I don't thing we looked good enough.

I think Trap only made the changes as a result of the sending off and they were questionable changes. Hunt for Doyle..?? Gibson for Andrews, I would have thought Gibson was good enough to start, a like for like substitution anyway so not very match changing. The Folan substitution was a good one, but begs the question why we didn't go for Bulgaria on Sat night in a similar fashion.

If Trap had sent his team out tonight and last Saturday night with the same attitude they showed after 20 mins of tonight's game we could be in a far better position in the group.

jebus

01/04/2009, 9:37 PM

We can't change the red card Norm, we can only play against whats out in front of us and I disagree with taking away from our performance like that

As for the subs, Andrews was having a nightmare so Gibson was the obvious choice, Folan sub changed the game and Doyle was looking knackered so needed to come off, Hunt wasn't a bad replacement

Stu that comment about the 10 men goes to you too

Jicked

01/04/2009, 9:40 PM

Gibson does have a better eye to spot a pass, with Italy playing as deep as they were and with such numbers it made sense to go for that vision to try and thread a few balls through. A few times Gibson spotted good balls but just couldn't execute them.

Stuttgart88

01/04/2009, 9:41 PM

I think Trap only made the changes as a result of the sending off and they were questionable changes. Hunt for Doyle..?? Gibson for Andrews, I would have thought Gibson was good enough to start, a like for like substitution anyway so not very match changing. The Folan substitution was a good one, but begs the question why we didn't go for Bulgaria on Sat night in a similar fashion.

If Trap had sent his team out tonight and last Saturday night with the same attitude they showed after 20 mins of tonight's game we could be in a far better position in the group.
Surely a manager's job is to respond to the game's circumstances?

Folan - good move.

Gibson for Andrews: not quite like with like. Gibson moves the ball better than Andrews though Andrews is more aggressive.

Hunt for Doyle? Doyle barely came out for the second half. I reckon he was shattered. I thought it was a good call though maybe Long's speed may have been more harmful.

Jicked

01/04/2009, 9:44 PM

Trap mentioned he thought some players were tiring today, I'd say Doyle was in mind then, he looked shattered alright. Noelio came on and worked well, with Folan as the target man there was a lot of nippy players working well around him.
Amazing defence by Italy to not once give Noel Hunt, Stephen Hunt, Keane, Whelan or Gibson a single sight of goal. Any time anyone looked to have a pop at goal a charger closed them down in a flash. Even more impressive when you consider they had 10 men.

richieos

01/04/2009, 9:58 PM

i think its time this thread was closed. trust in trap

irishultra

01/04/2009, 10:01 PM

i love doyle hes my favourite player but hes not really doing it in terms of goals lately and was presumably wrecked after his trojan work on saturday.

tricky_colour

01/04/2009, 10:02 PM

I think Trap realised they had 10 men, so burning the legs off them is a decent tactic, use all your subs because they will use all theirs.

Norm

01/04/2009, 10:10 PM

Fair nuff Jebus, probably a bit harsh to take from the performance just because of the red card. There definately was a good few positives to be taken. It is just frustrating that it took a red card to force Trap into making some substitutions. Folan made the difference.

I appreciate that he lives and dies by results and so far it is hard question them, but maybe if he had encouraged a little more of the positivity shown tonight coupled with a few well timed substitutions against Bulgaria and Montenegro we might be in a far stronger position.

For what its worth I am far more optimitic after tonight!

weldoninhio

01/04/2009, 10:15 PM

i think its time this thread was closed. trust in trap

Yes he is the Messiah

kingdomkerry

01/04/2009, 10:23 PM

Nobody said he is the Messiah but the fact is Ireland remain unbeaten with only one less that satisfactory result (Bulgaria).

I fancy us to take Bulgaria away!

Stuttgart88

01/04/2009, 10:23 PM

He's a very naughty boy.

cestlavie

02/04/2009, 12:55 PM

Thank God we eventually had a go after all that negative tripe thats been on show, hope they approach all games like they did the 2nd half. Mind you Italy played into our hands and sat back like we did against Bulgaria.
Thought Dunphy was abit too harsh last night. Good to see a little spirit. Im almost collapsed to see 3 subs by 63 minutes, maybe it was Trap not Hunt who got struck with the ball.
What about Hunt, he done well last night, won loads of questionable frees and he didnt even know that Italy had scored in the first half.

Lionel Ritchie

02/04/2009, 1:06 PM

The sending off probably deserves a thread of it's own at this stage. :)

For my money it was a stone cold red card. Yeah I'd have been ****ed off if we lost a man like that and yes nine out of ten times there's no sanction at all but that doesn't mean he wasn't culpable.

No intent is no excuse either -he jumped into a header with both his arms above his own head-height and that's against the rules exactly because you can shatter someones jaw, eye socket etc in the process.

Tough titty boy, hit the showers.

mandrake

02/04/2009, 1:19 PM

agree lionel, they werent complaining on saturday when canavaro shouldve been sent off in monty negro... and the ref made up for later with decision for them...

mypost

02/04/2009, 1:43 PM

Steady on now. They did have to play the entire game with 10 men.

I take it that's the get-out clause for the Trappasceptics. If they won, it would have been "they only needed ten men", if they didn't, it's because "they only had ten men." :rolleyes:

They're supposed to be the World Champions, able to despatch a bunch of semi-decent PL players, and lower league players in a side without 3 key players at home.

Even with 10 men.

jmurphyc

02/04/2009, 2:15 PM

I take it that's the get-out clause for the Trappasceptics. If they won, it would have been "they only needed ten men", if they didn't, it's because "they only had ten men." :rolleyes:

They're supposed to be the World Champions, able to despatch a bunch of semi-decent PL players, and lower league players in a side without 3 key players at home.

Even with 10 men.

Agree with that. A 10 man Italy side is still a very formidable opponent. A lot of sides would have found it difficult to get a result there even given the circumstances.

mypost

02/04/2009, 3:01 PM

Thought Dunphy was abit too harsh last night. Good to see a little spirit.

The "lunatic asylum" comment regarding Trap's subs (who unlike Dunphy has won every honour in the game) was a new low even for him.

Razors left peg

02/04/2009, 4:23 PM

Unbeaten in qualifying still.... sack him quick:)

Morbo

02/04/2009, 5:40 PM

What about Hunt, he done well last night, won loads of questionable frees and he didnt even know that Italy had scored in the first half.
Thought Hunt was very good, delivery from set pieces was poor but overall I was very impressed thought he was good against Bulgaria too and hopefully people will stop calling him an impact sub now, I'd start him against Bulgaria even if both Duff and McGeady are fit.

geysir

02/04/2009, 5:40 PM

The Bulgaria match was excrutiating to watch. Trap was right in that he feared us losing at the end, the Bulgarians were not settling for a draw.
Mick got slated when he gambled to beat the Swiss at home and lost it all due to that exact gamble. It later transpired that a draw then would have been quite okay.

It has to be (hoped) trusted that what was seen out on the pitch was not what the manager envisioned or ordered, it's just what transpires as a manager seeks to impose a playing style on a dysfunctional unit. Trap has given a huge vote of confidence to the existing squad to do the necessary.
The evidence is there now that the heartbeat of the team, CM, can rise to the occasion to function as Trap believes they can do.

Stuttgart88

02/04/2009, 6:43 PM

cheifo

02/04/2009, 6:52 PM

Some people criticsised Keanes overall performance but his dropping deep and taking time on the ball def helped Whelan and Andrews.

My worry about our current two midfielders is that they appear to not have the ability to excecute a telling early pass.

Can't question the attitude of either player though, always look commited and busy.

Having said that, I am not sure who was responsible for not closing down the Bulgarians(Petrov) pass which let to Kilbanes own goal.