View Full Version : The Damned United
Denis The Red
25/03/2009, 8:16 PM
Saw a trailer the other day and it looked good. Big Cloughie fan as he was larger than life. However it seems the movie and book has been lambasted by his family. Has anyone seen or read it yet.
Would also be interested in John Giles' depiction in it as the rumours were at the time that he was to succeed Revie and that he and a couple of senior players plotted against Clough. Et tu, Brute?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYzsswqPk6s
NeilMcD
25/03/2009, 8:32 PM
Giles went to court and got the book changed as a result. Ini his interview last week on Newstalk which is podcast he described it as Arty Farty nonesense.
drummerboy
26/03/2009, 8:02 AM
Saw a great documentary on UTV about Clought. Giles was on saying that the book was a work of fiction based on fact. He lambasted it and referred to suing the publishers and winning. He said most of the main characters Clough, Revie, Bremner were all dead and if they had still being alive the book would never have reached the bookshelves. Clough is painted as a very dark character. Giles said it was totally wrong. He actually said Clough was a genius, despite the conflict he had with him at Leeds.
The film is a lot lighter from what I have heard from critics on RTE the other night. They said it was well worth a look.
Hibs4Ever
26/03/2009, 10:15 AM
In middle of reading the book jow. Great read so far. Makes all the Leeds players of the time out to be right c**ts
Denis The Red
26/03/2009, 2:13 PM
Makes all the Leeds players of the time out to be right c**ts
Is it accurate do you think or is it all bullsh1t?
Bluebeard
26/03/2009, 2:22 PM
Read it, loved it. Giles is often referred to as "the Irishman", possibly where he was unhappy, I'm guessing. Certainly a work of fiction based on fact, as it purports to be. Clough does not come out a complete hero from it either, so I am very keen to see the Clough thing from last night - I recorded it at my girlfriends and I praying some of her house mates don't arbitrarily decide that they need to delete it as only 72% of memory is available (I checked to make sure I could defend this) and they need to record G**Bags Spout Sh!te About Clothes on the E Channel while they watch it, just in case they miss something when talking obnoxiously about how they are in favour of current affairs and stuff, and are delighted that Jessica Simpson won the phone vote to be America's Next Black President:mad:
Taylor Parkes, who is usually spot on, reviews the film here (http://thequietus.com/articles/01350-damned-united)
gilberto_eire
27/03/2009, 12:13 AM
Read it, loved it. Giles is often referred to as "the Irishman", possibly where he was unhappy, I'm guessing. Certainly a work of fiction based on fact, as it purports to be. Clough does not come out a complete hero from it either, so I am very keen to see the Clough thing from last night - I recorded it at my girlfriends and I praying some of her house mates don't arbitrarily decide that they need to delete it as only 72% of memory is available (I checked to make sure I could defend this) and they need to record G**Bags Spout Sh!te About Clothes on the E Channel while they watch it, just in case they miss something when talking obnoxiously about how they are in favour of current affairs and stuff, and are delighted that Jessica Simpson won the phone vote to be America's Next Black President:mad:
You must have a lot of issues with your girlfriends room mates....... spitting venom:D
bennocelt
27/03/2009, 9:10 AM
Is it accurate do you think or is it all bullsh1t?
havent got around to reading the book yet, and will watch the movie soon, but that Leeds team were the dirtiest team EVER. I mean you had Charlton, Hunter, Giles, Bremner etc and they used to kick lumps out of opposition players. having said that they could play some decent football to- when it suited them
Lionel Ritchie
27/03/2009, 2:06 PM
havent got around to reading the book yet, and will watch the movie soon, but that Leeds team were the dirtiest team EVER. I mean you had Charlton, Hunter, Giles, Bremner etc and they used to kick lumps out of opposition players. having said that they could play some decent football to- when it suited them
Oh be nice. ...when it suited them? Like when? ...like when winning what ... six major trophies? That team was stuffed full of first choice internationals and only won half the honours they deserved.
The Fly
27/03/2009, 2:36 PM
Did Clough's performances as a TV pundit not remind you of someone?
DaveyCakes
27/03/2009, 3:05 PM
I'm interested to see this, if a little apprehensive...its not as if football movies have a glorious history!
tetsujin1979
27/03/2009, 4:06 PM
Giles is often referred to as "the Irishman", possibly where he was unhappy, I'm guessing.
yeah, that was part of the outcome from the court case
Giles had an article in the Herald about it recently, you can read it here: http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/john-giles/enjoy-damned-fiction--but-remember-facts-1672328.html
and he metions it towards the end of this podcast from NewsTalk: http://83.138.170.50/podcasts/audio/1203giles.mp3
Denis The Red
27/03/2009, 11:13 PM
Oh be nice. ...when it suited them? Like when? ...like when winning what ... six major trophies? That team was stuffed full of first choice internationals and only won half the honours they deserved.
True, they were a decent team, there's no denying that but they also made Wimbledon's crazy gang look like choir boys at times.
It was a different time of course when it was a goal when you sent the goalkeeper flying into the net with the ball instead of it being a free out, oh happy days...
Everyone had their "hard men", Norman Hunter of the previously mentioned Leed's among others that they had, Chopper Harris of Chelsea, Tommy Smyth was tough enough, and little Nobby Stiles was nobody's bitch either. Even abroad, people like Gentile of Italy would give you nightmares. These guys from that time were idolised for their toughness and rough house tactics, now they get hung, drawn and quartered if you "go to ground in a tackle":rolleyes:. Don't get me wrong there's a difference between hard and dirty, but sometimes you feel the game has gone soft.
Anyway back to the point, did Giles and co run Clough out of Leeds or was it like John said, fiction based on fact?
"Read the book, go to see the movie but at all times remember that Peace and the filmmakers have created a production that may well be entertaining"
I will John, thanks.;)
tetsujin1979
28/03/2009, 12:56 AM
Anyway back to the point, did Giles and co run Clough out of Leeds or was it like John said, fiction based on fact?
Fiction based on fact, several conversations in the book where Giles is supposed to be orchestrating Clough's sacking never took place, also Clough was not drinking at the time, certainly not as much as in his later years at Forest anyway.
Razors left peg
28/03/2009, 10:05 AM
I havent read the book yet but this is Giles opinion on the book and the movie....
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/john-giles/enjoy-damned-fiction--but-remember-facts-1672328.html
bennocelt
28/03/2009, 5:43 PM
Oh be nice. ...when it suited them? Like when? ...like when winning what ... six major trophies? That team was stuffed full of first choice internationals and only won half the honours they deserved.
are you for real:rolleyes:
That team was the dirtiest team EVER , not that im complaining - sometimes it would be good to see such tackling these days
Oh be nice. ...when it suited them? Like when? ...like when winning what ... six major trophies? That team was stuffed full of first choice internationals and only won half the honours they deserved.
You win what you deserve in this game Lionel and Leeds bottled semi finals and finals far too often, not to mention Derby's title winning season, to say they deserved more.
Saw the movie today anyway and I really enjoyed it, not as much as the book but they are very different in tone in fairness
Mad Moose
02/04/2009, 6:40 PM
Saw a great documentary on UTV about Clought. Giles was on saying that the book was a work of fiction based on fact. He lambasted it and referred to suing the publishers and winning. He said most of the main characters Clough, Revie, Bremner were all dead and if they had still being alive the book would never have reached the bookshelves. Clough is painted as a very dark character. Giles said it was totally wrong. He actually said Clough was a genius, despite the conflict he had with him at Leeds.
The film is a lot lighter from what I have heard from critics on RTE the other night. They said it was well worth a look.
Clough was one of those characters that shaped my football life and interest and so I've read the book, was misled erribly by it, and I'm looking forward to seeing the film tomorrow night.
Saw the same documentary and I'm sorry I didn't see it before the book because I took things to be pretty much as they were in the book. Having seen the documenatary Giles lets you know how annoyed and angry he was and the fact that only he out of Revie and Bremner and himself, were still alive to take the author David Peace to court. Giles won. Some wonderful contributions from wife Barbara and son's Nigel and Simon.
The film is lighter and warmer and more affectionate toward Clough. The court case and family objections may have had something to do with it. Its filmed at Chesterfield's Saltergate and I was there when it was filming by chance as I was doing a return trip to the old ground.
sligoman
03/04/2009, 12:57 AM
Anyone know when this is in cinemas? Seems to be in some now but not all.
Mad Moose
03/04/2009, 7:10 AM
Anyone know when this is in cinemas? Seems to be in some now but not all.
Shouldn't be long.It came out here on Friday last and has gone down very well in a town dominated by the presence of the Clough family. There is so much affection for the man and the family here that this has been such a huge event.
bennocelt
04/04/2009, 11:59 AM
Bought the book yesterday - half way through it - yeah its good so far, wanted to read the book before i see the movie later this week:)
gustavo
04/04/2009, 12:18 PM
Bought the book yesterday - half way through it - yeah its good so far, wanted to read the book before i see the movie later this week:)
I've read the book and from what I can gather from the trailer and from what people say , the film is a lot different in tone to the book , book is a lot darker and is also written in a stream of consciousness which wouldn't be easy to translate to screen
bennocelt
05/04/2009, 10:33 AM
Finished, good book, and loved the way the two parallel stories meet in the end.
Now for the movie
:)
rambler14
05/04/2009, 10:55 AM
Nearly finished the book. I took it to Italy with me Tuesday and I have about 50 pages left so i'll try and finish it today.
DeLorean
24/04/2009, 4:15 PM
Finished the book just in time for the movie and the feckin things doesn't seem to be in any Kerry cinemas.
Some amount of research went into the book in fairness. This would lead me to believe that Peace was trying to get it as accurate as possible. Of course Giles and the Cloughs weren't going to support is as Giles is slated and Clough himself comes off as a bit of a looper, not to mention a raging alcoholic. I'd like to hear an interview with Giles about it, read his piece in the paper alright but it's not that same.
bennocelt
24/04/2009, 4:38 PM
Melvin Bragg (isnt that his name?) did a very good extensive interview about a year and a bit ago on his ITV latenight culture show (that I cant remember at the mom)
Might try and download it.....................its worth it
DeLorean
24/04/2009, 4:46 PM
Sound I'll take a look for it.
NeilMcD
26/04/2009, 9:29 PM
mms://ir1-c200.narrowstep.tv/mcp?psid=133648514&ref=0&chid=876&pid=3341&vid=87654822&br=400&tid=2&brid=1026&fab=0
Compelling viewing.
twofooted
27/04/2009, 12:59 PM
Is it worth the watch lads?
NeilMcD
27/04/2009, 1:46 PM
my link or the film :)
Emmet7
29/04/2009, 12:39 AM
I read another book about Clough, I forget the name but it was written by a press reporter for a local newspaper who was friendly with Clough and knew him better than most.
In the book Clough admitted that getting sacked from Leeds was the best thing ever to happen to him, he got a huge payout and since he was always worrying about money, it relieved that particular stress. He could now focus on football instead of money.
It probably helped him with Nottingham Forest later.
There is no odubt Clough was a genius taking two smallish clubs to the league championship and one to the European Cup twice with a lot of players who were regarded as has beens.
But he was also very arrogant and headstrong and could well have had a job with the big clubs or England except for that.
What he did with Nottingham Forest probably rivals anything Ferguson has done considering Ferguson has pretty much bought most of his titles.
I read another book about Clough, I forget the name but it was written by a press reporter for a local newspaper who was friendly with Clough and knew him better than most.
"Provided You Don't Kiss Me"
Great read. I read that and the Damned United one after the other.
DeLorean
29/04/2009, 10:50 AM
"Provided You Don't Kiss Me"
Great read. I read that and the Damned United one after the other.
Was there contradictions between the two Dodge? which did you enjoy more?
NeilMcD
29/04/2009, 11:00 AM
Well the reporter was from Nottingham or working there anyway so he only got to know Clough once he was there. I think Provided You Don't Kiss me is a better book and seems to be more accurate as it has not been challenged by any of the family although it tells of much more drinking than Damned Utd. I thinkt the problem with the Damned Utd for the family was that it used evidence of Clough's behaviour in the 80s and put it at the time he was at Leeds and before that. THe family say this is not true but they do not deny the drinking in the 80s
Dodge
29/04/2009, 11:01 AM
Not really any contradictions. The Damned utd doesn't mention forest at all, and "provided you don't kiss me" deals mainly with Forest (although there's a fair bit of overlap in the Derby stuff).
They're pretty hard to compare to be honest as "Damned" is "fiction" based on news reports and players bios etc and written in the first person (Clough is usually the narrator - sometimes Peter Taylor) whereas "Kiss" is a local journo's account of that time (including some personal stuff not really connected to Clough)
I did enjoy both emmensely though. I'd imagine that literary critics would praise "Damned" higher as its written beautifully and the writer uses some ingenious little concepts to get around the first person narrative. "Kiss" is a more like a traditional biography but again its well written and the subject is so interesting...
DeLorean
29/04/2009, 11:13 AM
Not really any contradictions. The Damned utd doesn't mention forest at all, and "provided you don't kiss me" deals mainly with Forest (although there's a fair bit of overlap in the Derby stuff).
They're pretty hard to compare to be honest as "Damned" is "fiction" based on news reports and players bios etc and written in the first person (Clough is usually the narrator - sometimes Peter Taylor) whereas "Kiss" is a local journo's account of that time (including some personal stuff not really connected to Clough)
I did enjoy both emmensely though. I'd imagine that literary critics would praise "Damned" higher as its written beautifully and the writer uses some ingenious little concepts to get around the first person narrative. "Kiss" is a more like a traditional biography but again its well written and the subject is so interesting...
I must check it out. On finishing The Damned United I was thinkin to myself I'd love if it continued into the Forest yrs, so that might be a good substitute, thanks.
DeLorean
29/04/2009, 11:17 AM
Well the reporter was from Nottingham or working there anyway so he only got to know Clough once he was there. I think Provided You Don't Kiss me is a better book and seems to be more accurate as it has not been challenged by any of the family although it tells of much more drinking than Damned Utd. I thinkt the problem with the Damned Utd for the family was that it used evidence of Clough's behaviour in the 80s and put it at the time he was at Leeds and before that. THe family say this is not true but they do not deny the drinking in the 80s
Ya that seemed to be their biggest gripe with the book which probably suggests the rest wasn't a million miles off the mark.
shakermaker1982
29/04/2009, 11:54 AM
yep like Dodge I'd recommend 'provided you don't kiss me'. Excellent book. If I recall correctly I think the author's wife pressed him into writing the book. He had all these notes from his interviews over the years just lying dormant. I might start reading it again this weekend after spotting this thread.
bennocelt
29/04/2009, 12:42 PM
I must check it out. On finishing The Damned United I was thinkin to myself I'd love if it continued into the Forest yrs, so that might be a good substitute, thanks.
thats exactly what i thought when i finished reading it too - a pity
DeLorean
29/04/2009, 1:06 PM
I'm not sure about the cover lads, it reminds me of Allen Carr's quitting smoking book...
http://www.26.org.uk/uploadedfiles/clough.jpg http://www.oo.com.au/prod/BK26893/1b.jpg
NeilMcD
29/04/2009, 2:26 PM
Well lets not all judge a book by its cover, your name is barely legal
Emmet7
29/04/2009, 3:46 PM
I think he started on the drink when Peter Taylor left him at Notts forest, they were like a married couple really, and neither did much good after that, it was all downhill once they parted.
DeLorean
30/04/2009, 9:10 AM
Well lets not all judge a book by its cover, your name is barely legal
Very true, if I could turn back time..:rolleyes:
Speaking of which, is there any way one could change their username without losing their stats ie. amount of posts, post history, etc?
Dodge
30/04/2009, 10:21 AM
I'm not sure about the cover lads, it reminds me of Allen Carr's quitting smoking book...
http://www.26.org.uk/uploadedfiles/clough.jpg http://www.oo.com.au/prod/BK26893/1b.jpg
In fairness I haven't kissed any football managers or journalists since I read that book...
DeLorean
30/04/2009, 11:17 AM
It's probably better than the smoking one so!!
geysir
30/04/2009, 12:05 PM
Clough looked an old man, mentally and physically by the time Forest were relegated.
At what point, when he was at Forest, did his drinking start to take over?
NeilMcD
30/04/2009, 1:52 PM
When Taylor died I think it hit new levels.
DeLorean
30/04/2009, 2:04 PM
I'll have another stab at askin this...
Is there any way one could change their username without losing their stats ie. amount of posts, post history, etc?
I'll have another stab at askin this...
Is there any way one could change their username without losing their stats ie. amount of posts, post history, etc?
Better off asking in support, or PM dahamsta. He's the only one that can help. I know its been done...
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